Aim & Build Up Different in the Prima Guide
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2006-06-07 13:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.
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Arg.... Won't matter, people will still quote only 1 set of numbers like it was the Bible just like they already do with Hero Planners.
Why not just release the actual power-data spreadsheets in one huge data-dump with each major patch to everybody like a few other games have done? ...Y'know, some of us read those things faster than any website or guidebook can disseminate the info to us.
especially guides in sideways-pdf format...ugh, very very hard to read. mass excel spreadsheets would be way easier
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especially guides in sideways-pdf format...ugh, very very hard to read. mass excel spreadsheets would be way easier
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PDF Reader should have a 'rotate page' button in the standard toolbar - makes reading it rather easier 
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especially guides in sideways-pdf format...ugh, very very hard to read. mass excel spreadsheets would be way easier
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PDF Reader should have a 'rotate page' button in the standard toolbar - makes reading it rather easier
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mine does, but i use this monitor as well. the monitor can rotate 90 degrees to display A4 docs as they were meant to be.
rotation ftw
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especially guides in sideways-pdf format...ugh, very very hard to read. mass excel spreadsheets would be way easier
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PDF Reader should have a 'rotate page' button in the standard toolbar - makes reading it rather easier
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Thanks!!! (places his monitor right side up)
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One thing I noticed: The guide lists Practiced Brawler as having resistance to Repel effects. I don't know about the villian version, but the Scrapper version has 0 Repel resistance (I couldn't even touch a Hurricane or Force Bubble user).
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I think I can see why we didn't get the "hard" numbers we were expecting with the Patron Power Pools. There are so many sliding scale factors and mathemagical matrixies that it looks to be practically impossible for the Devs to even know which numbers are "hard" and which would require additional massaging on the reader's part. The more they seem to try, the more it seems that the underlying systems are too overly complex for end users' needs for solid numbers. In short, there are very few solid numbers even behind the scenes.
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Surely enough. There's not even really a 'base' damage to go off of. They weren't kidding when they said there's a lot of math involved.
I have confidence they know what's going on under the hood, though, as often as certain devs make reference to their giant spreadsheets.
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The Prima guide is incomplete and full of errors.
Now you know why it didn't go to print.
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Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.
I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.
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We need one of those cardboard wheelie circular sliderule-like things, where you dial in the power, and the AT, and the level, and the power value shows up in a little cutout box on one of the wheels.
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Now, from what I recall, all dominator and controller single-target holds are Magnitude 3, regardless of level, and it's the duration that changes by level. That doesn't seem to match up with your "4.47 strength" in the guide (which is 3 * 1.49, the level 50 mez modifier for dominators). Shouldn't it be the 8 seconds that's multiplied by 1.49, for a 11.92-second Hold of 3 strength?
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Yes, based on past tests, it sounds like the 1.49 modifier was applied to the wrong value. For example, the Total Domination entry claims a duration of 8 seconds, which corresponds to player estimates of a base 8-second duration. Likewise, regular play shows that (at least pre-I7) the hold strength is always 3, regardless of level.
I suspect that what happened here is that the guide's values were generated by a program, and the code for protection strength (which does scale with level) was incorrectly reused for control strength also. However, it's also possible that the guide's values are correct, and the game code has it backwards! Confirmation on this point would be helpful.
Likewise, I'd also like to know whether Domination simply adds +100% strength and +50% duration (as we've previously assumed) or whether it effectively adds a second control of equal strength and 150% duration (as the guide implies). It would also be helpful to know for certain whether the Domination duration is +50% base or 150% of base+boosts.
Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.
Cinders has 4 Hold entries.
1) Hold vs Critters. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
2) Hold vs Players. It is Duration Scale 6, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. It is subject to Suppression. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
3) A second Hold vs Critters, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 12, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
4) A second Hold vs Players, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
WAY back on the original subject:
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.
Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.
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Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.
Cinders has 4 Hold entries.
1) Hold vs Critters. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
2) Hold vs Players. It is Duration Scale 6, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. It is subject to Suppression. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
3) A second Hold vs Critters, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 12, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
4) A second Hold vs Players, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
WAY back on the original subject:
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.
Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.
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Let's see if I can beat Arcanaville to the reply on this one. 
Isn't the To Hit Buff of Aim ADDED to the Base To Hit, rather than multiplied, for 117.5% To Hit in PvE, 92.5% To Hit in PvP?
wow, so a brute with buildup has a tohit of 60% in pvp? then add in some accuracies in attacks to multiply that?
also for cinders, with domination active, it has a duration scale of 14 in pvp, with a mag of 8?
nice to see some of how this game really works 
i used to read guides like this for final fantasy tactics (great game!)
Thank you for the clarification on Booleans and Domination, _Castle_!
Iakona: Yes, I think you're right. If it were an accuracy buff, it would work the way _Castle_ stated, but a to-hit buff should work the way you wrote it (unless the mechanics changed when Arcana wasn't looking ). It's pretty easy to get the two modifiers mixed up when that's not the main point of the example.
geombear: By the same reasoning, +20% to-hit should raise a brute from 50% all the way to 70% in PVP. Subtract defense and multiply by accuracy to get the final number.
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Let's see if I can beat Arcanaville to the reply on this one. Isn't the To Hit Buff of Aim ADDED to the Base To Hit, rather than multiplied, for 117.5% To Hit in PvE, 92.5% To Hit in PvP?
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Bah, it's been a long day.
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Let's see if I can beat Arcanaville to the reply on this one. Isn't the To Hit Buff of Aim ADDED to the Base To Hit, rather than multiplied, for 117.5% To Hit in PvE, 92.5% To Hit in PvP?
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Bah, it's been a long day.
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Haha, no worries, as long as you guys do actually know how the systems work. Mucho thanks to you for taking the time and effort to clarify the data in question.
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also for cinders, with domination active, it has a duration scale of 14 in pvp, with a mag of 8?
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Close. The normal effect versus players is 4 strength with 6 duration. With Domination active, there's a second effect at the same time that adds another 4 strength with 8 duration. The total effect would be 8 strength for 6 duration, then 4 strength for 2 duration.
For example, at 50th level, it would apply the +8 effect for 8.94 seconds, then drop to only +4 effect for another 2.98 seconds.
whooo 8 seconds thats awesome, with doms insane burst damage that's way more than enough time to kill our target (sorry couldnt help myself)
Where do you get only 8 seconds? That's the total duration at 1st level with no enhancements. And that's also for the AOE hold, which is not practical for one-on-one PVP. The single-target hold, Char, lasts 17.88 seconds unslotted. It lasts about 35 seconds with three green SOs. Is that long enough for you to finish somebody off?
(Also: The guide lists a 9-second PVP duration for the Cinders Domination effect. I'm not sure whether the guide or _Castle_ is in error here. If the game data really does show an 8-second duration, that's probably a bug, since that's only 133% of the 6-second base, instead of the usual 150% duration.)
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Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.
Cinders has 4 Hold entries.
1) Hold vs Critters. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
2) Hold vs Players. It is Duration Scale 6, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. It is subject to Suppression. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
3) A second Hold vs Critters, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 12, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
4) A second Hold vs Players, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
WAY back on the original subject:
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.
Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.
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Well, someone's gotta ask. I don't suppose it'd be possible to make public a copy of this spreadsheet, or at least those parts of it having to do with player powers, would it?
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Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.
The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
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Is there going to be an errata'd guide download fixing these erroneous numbers?
Perhaps it could include the missing Brute Energy Melee section while it's at it? And the class-based multipliers for the power pools?
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Opening the handy spreadsheet to a random control power in the Dominator section, I see Cinders.
Cinders has 4 Hold entries.
1) Hold vs Critters. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
2) Hold vs Players. It is Duration Scale 6, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. It is subject to Suppression. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous.
3) A second Hold vs Critters, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 12, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 3. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
4) A second Hold vs Players, which stacks with the first one. It is Duration Scale 8, which is affected by Enhancements, AT mods and Level Scale. It has a fixed Magnitude of 4. The Mag increasing in the Guide is erroneous. This entry only activates when Domination is active.
WAY back on the original subject:
Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.
Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.
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Thanks for the information Castle, but...
I would like to just point out that this is the first red name response, that I know of, in relation to ANYTHING dominator related outside of PMs...and it wasn't even in the Dominator forum or i7 Dominator feedback changes thread on test. As a matter of fact, it came on an off topic statement on Build and Aim.
Yeah, I went there.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
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Is there going to be an errata'd guide download fixing these erroneous numbers?
Perhaps it could include the missing Brute Energy Melee section while it's at it? And the class-based multipliers for the power pools?
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bump for a good Q
boy i cant wait for the devs and the guide-makers to get this all sorted out in the next few weeks