Aim & Build Up Different in the Prima Guide
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2006-06-07 13:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
for uniqueness?
ss's attacks do lower damage and are more of a dps-ish set, while stone is more of a burst damage set
rage kinda reminds me of followup for claws scraps, anyone know the numbers on it?
and rage's crash will get you killed a few times, some people slot it crazy because of that
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for uniqueness?
ss's attacks do lower damage and are more of a dps-ish set, while stone is more of a burst damage set
rage kinda reminds me of followup for claws scraps, anyone know the numbers on it?
and rage's crash will get you killed a few times, some people slot it crazy because of that
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SS and Stone's attacks have the same BI, rchg, and end cost if you drop Jab and Heavy mallet. Although Footstomp is stronger, as well as faster than Tremor.
SM is more bursty, due to animation time differences.
Flavor doesn't account for balance issues. If you want SS to maintain the flavor by keeping Rage unique, buff Stone's dmg (not by 80%, maybe 10-15%) as a base to overcome Smashing 'penalty'
It's as Geombear says. SS's attacks are all lower BI. Rage makes it so that they're "on par" damage wise with other sets that do NOT use their Buildup. Once you factor in Buildup for Stonemelee, then Stonemelee is doing FAR more damage than SS can hope to deal. In addition, Stonemelees high damage single target, Seismic Smash, recharges faster than SS's Knockout Blow, and Seismic takes 1/3rd the time to cast compared to Knockout Blow.
Rage is a balancing factor for SS. So much so, if you make a SupStr char, and skip Rage, you're gimping yourself. Whereas, Stonemelees can skip Buildup and they're just as effective if not more so than SupStr who TAKE Rage.
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
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SS and Stone's attacks have the same BI, rchg, and end cost if you drop Jab and Heavy mallet. Although Footstomp is stronger, as well as faster than Tremor.
SM is more bursty, due to animation time differences.
Flavor doesn't account for balance issues. If you want SS to maintain the flavor by keeping Rage unique, buff Stone's dmg (not by 80%, maybe 10-15%) as a base to overcome Smashing 'penalty'
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Uhhh, dropping Jab and Heavy Mallet, is stupid...
SupStr that doesn't take Jab, has to take Boxing instead. And ignoring Heavy Mallet is ignoring a LOT of damage.
Yes, Tremor is weaker than Footstomp. I do think Tremor needs a boost, but the rest of the Stonemelee set does NOT need a change just because SS gets Rage.
I played a SupStr/EnergyAura brute with my friends StoneMelee/EnergyAura brute. My friend didn't take Buildup, and I ran perma-Rage.
To be brutally honest, my friend was killing enemies faster than me. Even though I maintained a higher Fury level at all times than he could. Why? Because of the differences of him having that Heavy Mallet, and his Seismic hitting an enemy and finishing it while my Knockout Blow is still animating.
After making that SupStr Brute, I'll never again make another SupStr brute, the amount of damage they can pump out is too low even with Rage. I find my Firemelee brutes to have a significantly faster kill rate, and from that a higher survival rate. I definitely feel that SupStr is more for Tankers than it is for Brutes. A tanker has to hit to get use of their inherent, brutes don't. In fact, brutes want higher BI value attacks that animate quick, rather than low BI attacks with one high BI that takes forever to animate.
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
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SS and Stone's attacks have the same BI, rchg, and end cost if you drop Jab and Heavy mallet. Although Footstomp is stronger, as well as faster than Tremor.
SM is more bursty, due to animation time differences.
Flavor doesn't account for balance issues. If you want SS to maintain the flavor by keeping Rage unique, buff Stone's dmg (not by 80%, maybe 10-15%) as a base to overcome Smashing 'penalty'
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Uhhh, dropping Jab and Heavy Mallet, is stupid...
SupStr that doesn't take Jab, has to take Boxing instead. And ignoring Heavy Mallet is ignoring a LOT of damage.
Yes, Tremor is weaker than Footstomp. I do think Tremor needs a boost, but the rest of the Stonemelee set does NOT need a change just because SS gets Rage.
I played a SupStr/EnergyAura brute with my friends StoneMelee/EnergyAura brute. My friend didn't take Buildup, and I ran perma-Rage.
To be brutally honest, my friend was killing enemies faster than me. Even though I maintained a higher Fury level at all times than he could. Why? Because of the differences of him having that Heavy Mallet, and his Seismic hitting an enemy and finishing it while my Knockout Blow is still animating.
After making that SupStr Brute, I'll never again make another SupStr brute, the amount of damage they can pump out is too low even with Rage. I find my Firemelee brutes to have a significantly faster kill rate, and from that a higher survival rate. I definitely feel that SupStr is more for Tankers than it is for Brutes. A tanker has to hit to get use of their inherent, brutes don't. In fact, brutes want higher BI value attacks that animate quick, rather than low BI attacks with one high BI that takes forever to animate.
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I didn't mean you should actually not take them. I meant, Punch = Stone fist. Haymaker = Stone mallet, etc. The BIs are the same, not lower. SS is slower animation.
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To be brutally honest, my friend was killing enemies faster than me. Even though I maintained a higher Fury level at all times than he could. Why? Because of the differences of him having that Heavy Mallet, and his Seismic hitting an enemy and finishing it while my Knockout Blow is still animating.
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I'm not sure the math bears that out. If you had Rage and higher fury, you simply should have been doing at least as much damage as him. If you both have high fury or he has higher fury than you, then he will do more damage. He will also spend a metric ton of endurance per second.
Super Strength with Rage has a higer baseline damage and a lower peak sustained damage. Stone Melee has a lower baseline damage (because of no Rage) but a higher peak sustained damage because fury multiplies a larger true base damage.
SS allows less accuracy slotting, which is not a small benefit, especially in PvP but I am very fond of it in PvE as well.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
This is cute. I've found another error in the Prima Guide PDF. The 'Level' column for every power in every chart is off by 1. Level 1 powers are listed as 'Level 0', Level 32 as 'Level 31,' etc.
I've gone ahead and started a "consolidated thread" for errors in the guide over in the Suggestions forum. If folks find any others, stick 'em in there.
(Though with the number of errors I'm finding, maybe I'd be better off starting a thread for people to post anything that they find in the guide that is correct...)
That sounds like a mix-up between internal mechanics and user interface. Based on what I've seen of the mechanics (like Iakona's work on tables and formulas), I'm pretty sure that the game tracks security/threat level internally as a number from 0 to 49. Starting at 0 works better in most programming languages for things like table indexing and calculations. However, humans prefer starting at 1, so the UI adds one to the internal numbers. Whoever wrote up the guide material must've forgotten that step.
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Aim is a scale 5 To Hit buff for all Aim and Aim equivalent powers (amplify). That Scale is multiplied by 0.1 * AT Mod. For a Corruptor, that is +42.5% or 142.5% * Base To Hit. In PvE, that is 106.875% To Hit. In PvP, it is 71.25% To Hit.
Aim is also a Scale 5 Damage buff. That's a +42.5% damage increase.
Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.
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Time to update the Builder again!!
The old data I was pointed to had:
Aim Scale 8 To Hit Buff, Scale 5 Damage Buff
Build Up Scale 5 To Hit Buff, Scale 8 Damage Buff
what builder do you work on? the only one i've seen is sherk's, and he doesnt update it too much
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I'd hate to get Rage nerfed, but when build up was thought to be a 100% buff, and a higher to hit buff, it made some sense. Now it doesn't.
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We've known that BU was not 100% for Tankers and Brutes for ages and ages.
SS has 3 "large" attacks - KoB, Footstomp, and Hurl Boulder. The rest are rather small potatoes by Tanker/Brute standards. It also deals Smashing Damage. Compare this to Energy Melee, that has a mix of small and huge damages, big percentage energy damange, and standard BU. Compare it to Stone Melee, which has a laundry list of large damage powers, smashing damage, and BU.
Given the way the sets work overall I don't see a problem with Rage. You can't just look at Rage and think "omg, it's 120 seconds of Build Up!" You have to look at what the rest of the set does for you as well.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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what builder do you work on? the only one i've seen is sherk's, and he doesnt update it too much
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You can update the powers yourself in his planner.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
hurl isnt a high dmg, it's medium (does the same as haymaker)
in whose, sherks? i'd rather wait for other ppl who actually do testing to give him the info, then have him update the builder so i can download a more recent patch 
I don't mean "high" in the way it's used in the game. I just mean an attack with a decent kick to it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
that's what i figured. haymaker does the same, so they're either both "high" in your words, or both less than high (they belong in this latter category)
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the only one i've seen is sherk's, and he doesnt update it too much
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Do you have that "unable to read config file" issue? Just go into setup --> configuration --> auto update and untick the "use proxy" box and you should be able to receive updates again.
Edit: I learned about this from Glycerin's post.
used to have that problem, fixed it, got 1 update with the basic i7 stuff, and now it always says "no new updates available"
This is an off-topic but when I read the guide, Corruptor's Sonic primaryset was listed to decrease endurance but the Sonic powers we have now reduce Defense. This is weird.
And also, Assault was listed as 15% attack boost but people say it's only 10%??
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
actually sonic now reduces resistance. radiation primary reduces defense
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And also, Assault was listed as 15% attack boost but people say it's only 10%??
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It depends on what your AT is. As Castle said, the listing was for a theoretical AT with modifier of 1.0. Some have a modifier of less than 1.0, which would mean they get less than 15%. Some might even have more than 1.0, I dunno.
The guide doesn't list the modifiers. It doesn't even list that there are modifiers, which I consider to be a serious flaw. A guide should tell you everything you need to know, not part of it. Since not all ATs get the same benefit out of the power pool powers, there should be more than one listing. Or at the least, the modifiers should be clearly listed with an explanation of what they mean.
It does make sense that the "baseline" number is 15%. Defenders have a boost to this (18.75%), being the game's best Leadership users. Controllers, Corruptors and Kheldians get the baseline, and everyone else gets about 70% of it (10.5%). I have a planner sitting here telling me that Masterminds get a unique AT mod of 80%, for 12%. I don't have an MM, so I can't say.
If you can afford to run it, Assault is an nice boost to a Defender's own damage, let alone the damage of their teammates. In the pre-ED days, it was pretty pointless, but these days it's like having another damage DO in all your attacks (or like having six damage slots in a power instead of three).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Build Up is a Scale 2 To Hit Buff, or +20% for a Brute, and a scale 8 Damage Buff, or a +80% damage increase.
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Any comment on Build up vs Rage?
Since they are both confirmed as 80% dmg buff, 20% tohit, is there a reason SS gets Rage and a set like Stone gets build up? They are both dealing with the same Smashing only problem.
I'd hate to get Rage nerfed, but when build up was thought to be a 100% buff, and a higher to hit buff, it made some sense. Now it doesn't.