Official Thread for Recluses Victory: PvP Zone
By
Adam7,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 24:15 in Developers' Corner
[ QUOTE ]
Then there is the Focused Accuracy debate. Now having played my lvl 40 SR stalker in RV I know all the Doom sayers were right. It allows Tanks and Scrappers to see you from quite a distance and just plain NEVER miss. And I mean even with Elude or Overload on NEVER miss. The right build, which isn't hard to do, can completely NEGATE, yes NEGATE the entire defensive line. And by Negate I mean that it offers NO decent protection even with the lvl 38 uber-power running against anybody who cares to make a build to PvP. Focused Accuracy or a power like it is a game-breaking discrepancy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was with you, more or less, up to this point. But you don"t know what you're talking about. I've played MANY hours in RV with a dm/regen, 3 nucleolus all attacks, 3 cyto tactics, 3 cyto fa, and I hit sr/ninja scrappers very little -- most particularly when elude is up. I would estimate MAYBE 5% of the time.
I've seen several stalkers come into the massed heroes in front of the villain base and get kills without worrying about a thing, despite the fact that everyone can see them. Cotton Candy Killer is one that springs immediately to mind, but there are several others as well.
You're just flat out wrong on this point and it calls into question everything else you say. If I were you, I would change my argument.
So, I just got out of my first non-zergy PvP trial in RV - and I was pretty impressed. The only real worries I have are with smaller servers that may not have 2 groups roaming around to dispatch angry AVs/Heroes that spawn. I mean, I saw GW, Mako, and Scirocco all spawn at a single pillbox, and Statesman and Positron at another. Considering States' overly painful handclap for about 1000 damage, I'm not thinking that they're going to be easy to stop, especially if there's only a few players in the zone.
The great thing about this is NOT that heroes, long frustrated by villains TP Foeing them and base-camping, will get revenge. It's that when the Villains get their own 40's to 50, they will be able to go toe-to-toe with heroes, many of whom have HO's.
It's gonna be a fun zone...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why isn't there any PvP missions in RV? This completely boggles me because I figured RV would be me digging my Scrapper out of his still temp-grave to do some missions that WEREN'T in the Shadow Shard. I like to solo with him but the shard is annoying.
Why was there no implementation of PvP missions in RV?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure why we don't have missions in RV, but the Warburg contact now gives missions to everyone up to level 50. (The WB patrol mish is labeled "Patrol Siren's Call" but is truly a WB patrol, just a minor bug...)
I would rather have had a contact in RV for people 40+, but at least there are now repeatable, soloable, non-Shard missions for those folks (even though I personally LIKE the Shard...).
[/ QUOTE ]
Tried it and yeah, your right about Warburg which is nice. Unfortunately, as you said I'd rather want one in RV 
[/ QUOTE ]
Well dang ... I was just gonna post that the Warburg missions was doable with a level 50. 
And you're right, I also rather them be in RV.
NCIS: Best gorram show in the 'verse.
-------------------------
i wish
btw you got it backwards, the heros are usually the ones tping villains into drones
[ QUOTE ]
I was with you, more or less, up to this point. But you don"t know what you're talking about. I've played MANY hours in RV with a dm/regen, 3 nucleolus all attacks, 3 cyto tactics, 3 cyto fa, and I hit sr/ninja scrappers very little -- most particularly when elude is up. I would estimate MAYBE 5% of the time.
I've seen several stalkers come into the massed heroes in front of the villain base and get kills without worrying about a thing, despite the fact that everyone can see them. Cotton Candy Killer is one that springs immediately to mind, but there are several others as well.
You're just flat out wrong on this point and it calls into question everything else you say. If I were you, I would change my argument.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not suprised you have that experience with a DM scrapper. No Build Up. And if you read what I said closely, I said it's 'possible' not that every AT with every Powerset could do it. But any of the ones out there that have a combo of Build Up, Focused Accuracy and HO's CAN.
All I'm trying to do is call attention to a disparity that will be hurtful to this game. It NEEDS to be addressed or the PvP in this zone will go stale and die. If you don't want to belive me then I suggest you roll a defence based villian like an Ninja, SR or EA Stalker or EA Brute. If all I wanted to do was win whatever I'd just go join all the heros with one of my tanks listed in my Sig. But I'd rather do that when the villians pose a challenge. I don't want stale PvP because I was given an 'I win' button.
[ QUOTE ]
btw you got it backwards, the heros are usually the ones tping villains into drones
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, not on my server (Victory), in Siren's Call they villains do that a lot...
It's no big deal, but I think it's unsportsmanlike. Feeble and weak. And I mean that for anyone: Hero, villain, what have you.
I hope they figure out a way to make it a 'chain reaction' where any Hero who does this winds up going to the hospital.
I have no problem with your analysis being proven correct. But if you are going to be right, let's fast forward to that part so the Devs can fix it. And them fixing it correctly is going to take testing and datamining, as well as analysis and conjecture. 
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
If you read what I said closely, I said you're flat out wrong.
You are.
But keep posting. You say something wrong long enough, it's still wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw you got it backwards, the heros are usually the ones tping villains into drones
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, not on my server (Victory), in Siren's Call they villains do that a lot...
It's no big deal, but I think it's unsportsmanlike. Feeble and weak. And I mean that for anyone: Hero, villain, what have you.
I hope they figure out a way to make it a 'chain reaction' where any Hero who does this winds up going to the hospital.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would be ok with this if it would just put us back where we got tp'd from instead of the hospital since we start back at 1 health when we respawn.
I encountered both Jumproot and CottonCandy on test server this past weelend. They both were hellacious, nearly soloing my Emp/Rad, and did much better when teamed with others...
...and I got each of those guys a couple of times myself, once their health bars were already run down to 50% or lower, or if they were brave enough to try to Stalk me (I have two of the best Mez attacks in the game at close range and a Nova only SR's can escape).
The chance I now seem to have in PvP will likely erode once these guys get their characters to level 50 and have more slots, better powers, and time to consider how to topple me by the numbers.
I have no doubt Villains are gonna own that zone in a few months; it surprises me that this hasn't occured to everyone. I am comfortable with it-- requires me to rely on teammates more, which is what my AT is about, anyways!
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not suprised you have that experience with a DM scrapper. No Build Up. And if you read what I said closely, I said it's 'possible' not that every AT with every Powerset could do it. But any of the ones out there that have a combo of Build Up, Focused Accuracy and HO's CAN.
All I'm trying to do is call attention to a disparity that will be hurtful to this game. It NEEDS to be addressed or the PvP in this zone will go stale and die. If you don't want to belive me then I suggest you roll a defence based villian like an Ninja, SR or EA Stalker or EA Brute. If all I wanted to do was win whatever I'd just go join all the heros with one of my tanks listed in my Sig. But I'd rather do that when the villians pose a challenge. I don't want stale PvP because I was given an 'I win' button.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to second this. I was duking it out with a Kat or BS/DA (I forget which) scrapper yesterday with my SS/EA Brute during one of the few times there weren't 20 heroes standing in front of the base and while I had Overload running along with the rest of my toggles he was pretty much hitting me every time. He only went down after a 2nd brute joined the fight and he decided to stick it out 2 on 1...and even then it was still very close.
He asked me afterward if I had even popped Overload because he couldn't tell. I asked him what he was running. FA, Tactics, and BU all slotted with 3x ToHit. He didn't mention any HOs at all. That's a pretty standard PvP spec and it was punching through my lvl38 power like I didn't even have it on.
On that note, let me just say that I DO NOT support nerfing FA at all. But I'd really like to have access to it with my Brutes. With 3x ToHit in Rage and 2x Acc in attacks, I still can't touch a Scrapper in Elude. Even with PPPs what can I do to make up for that disparity? Pull out my pet and hope he has better accuracy than me? Everything else I have requires I hit something to be effective. Giving utility powers like FA to only one side is quite unbalancing in my opinion.
And just briefly on the base camping vs. drone TP thing? Gankers will be gankers. When I play my hero, I stay away from the villain base specifically because I don't want to be lumped into that crowd. I guess if that's how you have fun, there will be people on the other side who will stand inside the base and pick you off into the drones. It's really all rather idiotic and easily avoidable.
[ QUOTE ]
If you read what I said closely, I said you're flat out wrong.
You are.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who can argue with that reasoning?
I have to say that I totally agree with you. It will not matter if we are at lvl 41-43-47-49, or even 50. Another low-level attack is not going to do squat against someone. I already have an attack chain, so for me, adding another attack isn't going to fill any holes me Cor. already has. The armor, yeah, its nice, but thats only one power. I just really feel sorry for those MM's. All they are getting is a re-hash of powers they already have access to, and being a MM, I know I wouldn't want another attack. The job of a MM isn't supposed involve throwing out LL attacks, its about De-Buffing, Buffing, and Healing. Has anyone actually seen any hard data on the Armors that Cor.'s get?? The only one I have seen is a 20-something resist. Thats a resist, not a defense. So we are still going to get hit the same, just for not as much. My problem was actually getting hit, So I would like some defense. Do any of the Patrons offer a "DEFENSE" armor?? I would kill to get the Blaster version of PFF. Its like having Elude on, yet you can't fight. It would be a nice escape power if things started to get rough. But no, I'm just not seeing it.
[ QUOTE ]
I took over a pillbox that was already villain-side, but the person controlling it had been killed or run away or something. It had no turrets, but when I took it over, ONE turret spawned (instead of four) and it was right next to me, clipping the transparent dome. I'm guessing this is a bug.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had the same happen to me and /bugged it. No official response other than "Thank you.... post to the boards" stuff.
I also wanted to add here that Captain Mako could be taken down a notch or two. The rest of the AV's are great and a whole lot of fun (and a real challenge) to defeat, but Mako seems much harder to kill than the others.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Spent some time in RV last night before and after we ran the Cathedral of Pain (which was pretty easy with 24 heroes, by the way). Some thoughts, in no particular order:
<ul type="square">[*]While it's cool to see the signature heroes and villains, I won't be bothering to attack them. There's no point, they're impossible to take down. Before last night's CoP, we had 20+ heroes attacking Lord Recluse, all the heavies in the zone, and who knows how many pets - and his life bar barely budged. I think I saw it drop to about 80% once. Lag was horrendous with all the power effects being thrown around. Either tone these guys down or people will just ignore them.[*]After the CoP, I must have hit a villain-fest, because I couldn't get anywhere near a pillbox without my controller being one- or two-shotted. With invisibility, which is apparently useless. On an 8-man hero team, too, so it's not like I was trying to go it alone. I eventually switched to my scrapper and that helped, at least I was able to get a few attacks in before the stalkers killed me.[*]The rez-with-no-health-in-the-hospital bug needs to be fixed badly. I was getting killed so fast on my controller that Rest hadn't recharged between deaths, so I couldn't even go out to try again since I had no health.[*]Is there a reason the heavy platforms aren't on the map? I understand that the big holo-map has them, but why not the normal map? It's annoying.[*]I logged back on this morning before work and was finally able to find an unclaimed heavy. They're pretty cool pets. Kinda slow, but that's to be expected. Only thing I'd like to see changed is to give them a better pathing AI for climbing steps. Mine got stuck trying to get up the City Hall steps, took me a good 5 minutes to convince it to walk around instead.[*]I like the new mobs - I saw some Arachnos commando-types run past my corpse after the stalkers killed me. Dunno if those are RV-only or part of the 40+ game for villains, but it's cool either way.[*]I'm very disappointed that there isn't a patrol mission in this zone so my L50 can get the badge (Risk Taker, I think it is). There isn't any missions at all, so far as I've seen. Can we get Warburg missions extended up to L50 if you're not going to put them in RV?[/list]
Skip
My Char. List and Market Transactions
HeroStats Developer
Legion of Valor
Iron Eagles
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you read what I said closely, I said you're flat out wrong.
You are.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who can argue with that reasoning?
[/ QUOTE ]
lol. Yeah its pretty bulletproof
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw you got it backwards, the heros are usually the ones tping villains into drones
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, not on my server (Victory), in Siren's Call they villains do that a lot...
It's no big deal, but I think it's unsportsmanlike. Feeble and weak. And I mean that for anyone: Hero, villain, what have you.
I hope they figure out a way to make it a 'chain reaction' where any Hero who does this winds up going to the hospital.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have one reason and only one to TP Foe folks into drones. When there is a large group outside the base camping it. If it is just one or two people, I will gladly run out and fight. However, if there are folks that are spamming AoE snares, Holds, Confusion, and all the other nasty stuff to keep me from running out, I fully intend on thinning out the ranks. Only reason why I didn't do it in RV was because the toon that has it fully slotted is 36.
[ QUOTE ]
I have to say that I totally agree with you. It will not matter if we are at lvl 41-43-47-49, or even 50. Another low-level attack is not going to do squat against someone. I already have an attack chain, so for me, adding another attack isn't going to fill any holes me Cor. already has. The armor, yeah, its nice, but thats only one power. I just really feel sorry for those MM's. All they are getting is a re-hash of powers they already have access to, and being a MM, I know I wouldn't want another attack. The job of a MM isn't supposed involve throwing out LL attacks, its about De-Buffing, Buffing, and Healing. Has anyone actually seen any hard data on the Armors that Cor.'s get?? The only one I have seen is a 20-something resist. Thats a resist, not a defense. So we are still going to get hit the same, just for not as much. My problem was actually getting hit, So I would like some defense. Do any of the Patrons offer a "DEFENSE" armor?? I would kill to get the Blaster version of PFF. Its like having Elude on, yet you can't fight. It would be a nice escape power if things started to get rough. But no, I'm just not seeing it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Black Scorpion's armor is +Def. No number is given as to how much, but if you're PvPing in RV, you're better off with +Res anyway. Whatever the defense number is on BS' armor will be made irrelevant with all the ToHit buffs running on the Hero side and if you're gonna get hit anyway, you might as well shrug off a little damage. Plus the +Res armors will stack with Tough if you choose to go that route and will give you a pretty "okay" amount of resistance for a squishy. Just no panic button like PFF or FoN. I'll probably grab Scirocco's armor for my Corruptor.
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with your analysis being proven correct. But if you are going to be right, let's fast forward to that part so the Devs can fix it. And them fixing it correctly is going to take testing and datamining, as well as analysis and conjecture.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please stop acting like I don't want to test. It's not true. I do. I would LOVE a level bump to test this.
[ QUOTE ]
If you read what I said closely, I said you're flat out wrong.
You are.
But keep posting. You say something wrong long enough, it's still wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
So me posting my own experinces, what has actually happened to me is 'wrong'? Really? How does that work exactly? Not to mention that __jdos__ had the exact same experience. I really don't understand how you can say I'm 'wrong' when all I have done is tell you what's happened to me.
[ QUOTE ]
While it's cool to see the signature heroes and villains, I won't be bothering to attack them. There's no point, they're impossible to take down. Before last night's CoP, we had 20+ heroes attacking Lord Recluse, all the heavies in the zone, and who knows how many pets - and his life bar barely budged. I think I saw it drop to about 80% once. Lag was horrendous with all the power effects being thrown around. Either tone these guys down or people will just ignore them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tested a few things on Ghost Widow today while we had 9 heroes fruitlessly beating on her.
Yes, she easily holds/kills through Unyielding AND Unstoppable. Was ruthless.
I believe that the combination of Stimulant, Unyielding and Unstoppable kept her from using the same power and one shot holding. I need to further test it - but when she made me her pet - an Inv tank that I had stimulant on next to me was able to avoid the hold.
[ QUOTE ]
However, if there are folks that are spamming AoE snares, Holds, Confusion, and all the other nasty stuff to keep me from running out, I fully intend on thinning out the ranks.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think either thing-- base camping or TP foeing-- is bad sportsmanship. When I finally encountered the entrance to the Villain bae, I turned tail. I don't want to be someone who exploits. TP Foe and hit me all you like, but DON'T just throw me into a drone.
Anyways... that's one opinion. I don't think either act is justified and it disappoints me that players think that's winning.
[ QUOTE ]
With that said, I FEAR for the state of Hero vs. Villian PvP. Yeah, I know that there is already a glaring level discrepancy in RV that won't go away until I7 is on live for a few months. Not to mention the 5 to 1 ratio of hero's to villians. But there are some serious issues and GLARING disparities that is only going to grow more obvious when things move on. They are such that if something isn't done NOW there will be more serious decisions to be made. Probably mostly negative, only amplified by the time elapsed. And that's the Patron Powers vs. Ancillary Powers.
Currently as it stands the heros' powers can fill huge gaping holes in PvP that terribly destroy the balance between the two sides because there is no like power on the villian side. The lack of those same holes being filled on the Villian side will end with RV being dead. Not to mention what effect it will have on base raids.
For example, giving Blasters the like of Hibernate, Personal Force Field and Force of Nature(Unstoppable-Lite). There is NOTHING similar on the villian side that can do as much to get a villian out of a sticky situation. I've seen all three of these used to GREAT effect in RV in the few days I've been there. The lack of powers with anything near the utility of those powers is a real shame. This kind of protection for a 'squishy' class SHOULD be available one of the villian Squishy AT's as well.
This is on top of their already 30% unresistable damage and the highest burst accuracy in the game with Aim and Build Up both available, another horrible discrepancy between the two sides.
Controllers get Indomitable Will, a powerful status protection that can be used as a panic button to great effect. Yet again, nothing of it's like is available to Villian squishies. None of them get status protection of any kind.
And Power Build Up is basically a 10 second Domination on a 120 second timer that doesn't require previous attacks to make it available. Their holds already last longer than a Dominator without PBU. This would have been a PERFECT addition to either Corr or Dom Patron Powers to even out the playing field. This is also available to defender sets as well, so even more possible AT's with it to add to the disparity.
Then there is Containment. Something that in all previous zones enabled Controllers to even compete in the low levels. But in RV with the avalibility of decent, straight damage powers, it's too much. With only three holds necessary to knock off status protection, NONE of the villian AT's last long in a zone where Break Frees require you to rezone to a store to aquire.
Defenders, as previously statud gain acces to Power Build Up, which is a huge boon and is sorely missing from Patron Powers IMHO. But they can also gain a high damage(for a Def)Melee attack. Something their Corruptor brothers could use as well. Another glaring hole that Patron Powers failed to fill.
Then there is the Focused Accuracy debate. Now having played my lvl 40 SR stalker in RV I know all the Doom sayers were right. It allows Tanks and Scrappers to see you from quite a distance and just plain NEVER miss. And I mean even with Elude or Overload on NEVER miss. The right build, which isn't hard to do, can completely NEGATE, yes NEGATE the entire defensive line. And by Negate I mean that it offers NO decent protection even with the lvl 38 uber-power running against anybody who cares to make a build to PvP. Focused Accuracy or a power like it is a game-breaking discrepancy. The Villian side has no equivilant power to counter Ice tanks or SR with Elude running, or even to-hit debuffs from defenders and controllers. For an ancedotal example: I had my lvl 41 DM/EA brute in RV going toe to toe with a Broad Sword/Regen Scrapper. I was running Overload and he was debuffed by at least one casting of Radiation Infection and my Touch of Fear with one To-Hit Debuff SO. He NAILED ME repeatedly with all of that running. Between FA and Build Up he was able to clean my clock SOLO with all my vaunted defence and help from a */rad Corr somehwere above me. This sort of thing will drive every living soul out of RV IMHO.
And as we have seen in RV on test, most people just wnat to win at any cost and log their hero's. IF this lasts, pretty much the zone will be an Arch-Villian badge hunting zone for the heros like it is currently on test.
If somebody could explain to me how villians are suposed to compete with hero's in RV, I'd love to hear it. But based on the Patron Powers alone it's not looking good IMHO. I mean, the pets villians get aren't even up very often. THey are a true panic button if there ever was one. At least Overload is up ever few min. But 15min? Sheesh. Gimie some Hibernate,PFF,Force of Nature,Indomitable Will, Focused Accuracy or the like instead of a VERY situational pet.
I'm sorry for the rant but the last few days has been about the most un-fun I've experienced since I bought CoH in '04. Sure, I could be like the rest of the jerks and log all my Hero's but what's the point?
Hell, I didn't even touch on all the points I had about the dispairities. THere's more out there. And all of them point to a PvP game that is just gonna be unfun to play as a villian. And if you value a balance, fun PvP experience then something drastically needs to be done. Because all the HO's and Patron Powers will not bring the dispairity any closer to balance with Patron vs. Ancillary powers. Otherwise RV will look much like it does on Test but with less people.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to quote most of what this guy said. Zone combat is our thing, and sadly RV isn't looking all that hot at the moment. For a lot of the reasons quoted above. I mean give me PFF for my corruprtor ok?
The thing that bugs me the most though is the base camping. Zone design needs to be done in a way to prevent this. I already went on record months ago in the PVP forums about mini-spawn points scattered around the zone. That way it spreads people out.
Due to the power inbalances and the base camping, it really makes me wonder if I-7 is worth the wait.
Ok, I just got done with a good two hour test. I noticed that there's something in the description about what seems to be a temp power heavy. This in mind (and with the help of a couple good Heroes to spread the word to those with villain chat off) we managed to have an unsteady truce in RV.
The purpose of the truce was to keep the pillboxes in the zone nearly even, thus allowing the points bar to fill up. Even with crashes we were able to get a full bar in a little over an hour. There was nothing noticable when the bar filled up and the suggestion was put to talk to the NPC at base. Sadly, another crash happened and all scores reset to zero.
Do we have to take the zone with 1000 points to get the heavy, or report into a contact?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.