City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

I Want a Big Red Ball! -YAY-

1_800_Spines

By 1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 03:08 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

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I'd forgotten about this for awhile 'till I saw it on my favorite topics. Someone needs to ask _Castle_ at his Ask a Dev about it... or perhaps we all spam it for every dev interview citing that it "could" be done...

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Choose to view this thread under the option "Threaded" at the top of the menu. This will allow you to pick out the Redname posts easily.

In those posts, they have already stated that there NEVER will be a red ball, and why it is physically impossible.

Sorry. I want it as much as the next person.

 

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Who doesnt?

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Actually I don't and I don't even like it when this dumb thread pops up to page one for me! Where's that darn /ignore thread feature anyway!

 

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I like playign kickball with a forklift. Much more superish.

 

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I'd forgotten about this for awhile 'till I saw it on my favorite topics. Someone needs to ask _Castle_ at his Ask a Dev about it... or perhaps we all spam it for every dev interview citing that it "could" be done...

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Why bother "Asking a Dev" they have already said multiple times NO. It can't be done with the current engine and they aren't writting a new one, for this. Deal with it.

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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.

 

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....Can we just let this thread die already? Heck even I have better stuff to do. LOL

 

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I am having diffucilty trying to come up with an explination why this should not be put in the game. I mean, I should have dozens of reasons. Yet, I can think of none. So, this gets my vote without any counter argument.

 

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I am having diffucilty trying to come up with an explination why this should not be put in the game. I mean, I should have dozens of reasons. Yet, I can think of none. So, this gets my vote without any counter argument.

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Not technically possible. Read the thread to see why.

Just because you can't think of an argument doesn't mean that one doesn't exist.

"Player First / Villain Second" - Dr_Hetero

"The real pros will never trumpet their experience. They'll lead by example." - Primal

 

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/signed

One of the best ideas I have seen here. I remember playing soccer with some teammates with some of the grav/* troller Propel items thrown around. I dont beleive it would be difficult to create a BRB with similar properties.

 

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(QR)

Im curious on a few things. I was deep into this several months ago and I remember that a redname posted in here saying that it cant be done.

What I dont understand is "Why" cant it be done? Did we ever get a technical reason why the Big Red Ball wont work?

My understanding of the BRB, was to have it look like a Soild Red forcefield and have that forcefield about the size that would apply to the tallest Huge Male frame. Basicly think of the COH respec reactor red force field, but a solid red, rather then see-through.

Then make it so you cant kill it, much like the civilians in the COV mayhem missions. They can still be effected by knockback, but not much else.

The only downside is that powers that have no "knockback/knockup/knockup, wouldnt have any effect. This could be "corrected" by having a power that has a knock** effect, but then this power would have to have no effect on normal mobs and I dont know if this is possible.

So with those taken into account the only other factor would be Physx effect? Would the BRB act the same on player #1 computer as it does on Player #2 computer? Is that the technical issue that would be an issue?

Im looking at over 500 posts in this topic alone, so going through it all might be a bit much.

I guess the bottom line is:

Is makeing the BRB ball possible or is the cost and animation too much to add in a limited feature?

 

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It is stated here in this thread. It's just buried amongst all the "But I REALLY want it!" posts.

In short, the reason is the same reason why propel doesn't show the same thing for everyone. Also, it's the same reason why a Physics card is an option.

The thing is that the physics calculations are done on the client, and not the server. With the calculations performed on different machines, and no mechanism to synchronize them in the current protocol, any differences in the environment (like the ones caused by differing network latencies) would cause different results, and the ball would be in a different place for different people.

In short, the network protocol, server, and client are not structured to handle putting the ball in the same place for everybody.

"Player First / Villain Second" - Dr_Hetero

"The real pros will never trumpet their experience. They'll lead by example." - Primal

 

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It is stated here in this thread. It's just buried amongst all the "But I REALLY want it!" posts.

In short, the reason is the same reason why propel doesn't show the same thing for everyone. Also, it's the same reason why a Physics card is an option.

The thing is that the physics calculations are done on the client, and not the server. With the calculations performed on different machines, and no mechanism to synchronize them in the current protocol, any differences in the environment (like the ones caused by differing network latencies) would cause different results, and the ball would be in a different place for different people.

In short, the network protocol, server, and client are not structured to handle putting the ball in the same place for everybody.

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Thats really too bad. I think this Big Red Ball thingy would have been great to revive the Arena. Super Powered Soccer Matchs would have been soooo cool. Just imagine the two teams using all their powers to try get the BRB in the opposite goal Blasting at the ball , hitting hit with melee , flying , superspeeding , jumping around to get to it

Awww... This arena event would have hooked me like Blitzball did with FFX You know when you come to like a minigame more than the real game

There must be a way! Devs please think of something!

I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

 

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It is stated here in this thread. It's just buried amongst all the "But I REALLY want it!" posts.

In short, the reason is the same reason why propel doesn't show the same thing for everyone. Also, it's the same reason why a Physics card is an option.

The thing is that the physics calculations are done on the client, and not the server. With the calculations performed on different machines, and no mechanism to synchronize them in the current protocol, any differences in the environment (like the ones caused by differing network latencies) would cause different results, and the ball would be in a different place for different people.

In short, the network protocol, server, and client are not structured to handle putting the ball in the same place for everybody.

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See that is what I dont understand 100%. Maybe its the scope of the effect that I dont grasp, but heres what I dont get.

I have a claw scrapper, and most of there powers have a knock** effect and I even have body mastery Epic so I have Energy Torrent as well.

When I use those attacks on a mob, they are knocked around and scattered, but yet anyone else on the team can still attack them cause they can see where they went.

Now does this mean that the inital knock** attack would be correct since we had knock** effect before physX (thus the location would be correct), but then the bounces afterwards would be somewhat "random" cause that is using the PhysX on the client side?

If you wanted to simplify the BRB then you could just have it work like a mob (without rolling around or bouncing around after the inital knock**), but I think that would take out alot of the fun. That way it would be just like a mob before PhysX was coded in.

Kinda like the old days where people would take force punch and 6 slot it with knockback and "punt" hellions in Atlas around.

 

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When I use those attacks on a mob, they are knocked around and scattered, but yet anyone else on the team can still attack them cause they can see where they went.

Now does this mean that the inital knock** attack would be correct since we had knock** effect before physX (thus the location would be correct), but then the bounces afterwards would be somewhat "random" cause that is using the PhysX on the client side?

If you wanted to simplify the BRB then you could just have it work like a mob (without rolling around or bouncing around after the inital knock**), but I think that would take out alot of the fun. That way it would be just like a mob before PhysX was coded in.

Kinda like the old days where people would take force punch and 6 slot it with knockback and "punt" hellions in Atlas around.

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The difference is that knockback is handled on the server, and has nothing to do with physics. This becomes clear when knockback sends a critter up through the ceiling or off the map entirely. It is my impression that the ragdoll portion of the knockback is calculated on the client, while the knockback itself is determined on the server. I could be wrong in that.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just trying to explain the reasons why it's not practical, as I understand them.

There are a number of issues that I see as hurdles in the way.

A. They might need to change the network protocol to handle a different kind of update. This isn't an absolute. They might be able to shoehorn in updates similar to how knockback works, or even use the same kind of packets that knockback uses.

B. They probably need to come up with a new/special mob type. The game has some fairly concrete definitions of what a mob is. Some of them are targetable, and others aren't. IIRC, only targetable mobs are able to interact with a player character, but if it's targetable, is it attackable? The game flags might already be able to handle this case, but I can't think of an example right off hand were we can see that it does.

C. The physics calculations need to be moved from the client to the server. This one has a couple sub-problems with it.

C.1. First of all, physics calculations use up a lot of computing power. The math involved with a 3D vector and a single collision detection aren't all that bad, but the sheer number of vector calculations and collision detections needed per second to make a sphere bouncing in an irregular environment grow exponentially. The load on the server would increase dramatically, even if it's only handling one instance of the ball at a time (i.e. zone maps only). Server lag is already noticeable during a Hami raid or a seasonal event. Whether that lag is a network bandwidth limitation or a processing limitation, handling something like the ball could have a noticeable negative impact on both.

C.2. The current scheme with calculations on the client, partially for the reasons listed above, allows use of a 3rd party add-on card. This helps with the performance of calculations on the one client, but moving the calculations to the server would deprecate the usefulness of the PhysX card. Not only would users be unhappy that an extra purchase of theirs no longer improves their performance, Ageia would likely not appreciate what would probably be a breach of contract.

I personally have nothing against a Big Red Ball in the game, but it appears to me that the structure of the game is heavily stacked against being able to pull it off in a practical way.

"Player First / Villain Second" - Dr_Hetero

"The real pros will never trumpet their experience. They'll lead by example." - Primal

 

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The difference is that knockback is handled on the server, and has nothing to do with physics. This becomes clear when knockback sends a critter up through the ceiling or off the map entirely. It is my impression that the ragdoll portion of the knockback is calculated on the client, while the knockback itself is determined on the server. I could be wrong in that.

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Knockback is controled by the server, cause we had knock** effects long before they added PhysX into the game


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A. They might need to change the network protocol to handle a different kind of update. This isn't an absolute. They might be able to shoehorn in updates similar to how knockback works, or even use the same kind of packets that knockback uses.

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Well since the server handles knock**, I dont think there would need to be a change how packets work.

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B. They probably need to come up with a new/special mob type. The game has some fairly concrete definitions of what a mob is. Some of them are targetable, and others aren't. IIRC, only targetable mobs are able to interact with a player character, but if it's targetable, is it attackable? The game flags might already be able to handle this case, but I can't think of an example right off hand were we can see that it does.

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I dont think we need a new mob type, the COV mayhem civilians seems to work perfectly. They have 5hp, cant be killed, but can be knocked, and pushed arround.

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C. The physics calculations need to be moved from the client to the server. This one has a couple sub-problems with it.

C.1. First of all, physics calculations use up a lot of computing power. The math involved with a 3D vector and a single collision detection aren't all that bad, but the sheer number of vector calculations and collision detections needed per second to make a sphere bouncing in an irregular environment grow exponentially. The load on the server would increase dramatically, even if it's only handling one instance of the ball at a time (i.e. zone maps only). Server lag is already noticeable during a Hami raid or a seasonal event. Whether that lag is a network bandwidth limitation or a processing limitation, handling something like the ball could have a noticeable negative impact on both.

C.2. The current scheme with calculations on the client, partially for the reasons listed above, allows use of a 3rd party add-on card. This helps with the performance of calculations on the one client, but moving the calculations to the server would deprecate the usefulness of the PhysX card. Not only would users be unhappy that an extra purchase of theirs no longer improves their performance, Ageia would likely not appreciate what would probably be a breach of contract.

I personally have nothing against a Big Red Ball in the game, but it appears to me that the structure of the game is heavily stacked against being able to pull it off in a practical way.

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I cant ever see Cryptic ever changing physx to server side, but I believe that is where the "line" is drawn almost.

Here is my believe/example on how the systems work with a BRB:

W/O PhysX
Toon hits BRB with energy torrent, the ball is knocked up and back. When the BRB hits the ground, it will sit there. If it hits a wall, it will drop to the ground where the wall meets the ground. This should work within current limitations, cause it is possible with any mob in game as it stands now.

W/ PhysX
Toon hits BRB with energy torrent, the ball is knocked up and back. Now when the ball hits the ground, it wouldnt stop right away, it would continue to bounce until it ran out of inertia. If it hit a wall, it would bounce off the wall and go in another direction or come back at you, depending on the angle.

So if my opinion is correct on how the systems work, the only thing possible at this level, would be the 1st example.

I *LOVE* the idea of the BRB, but I guess what it comes down to is what level of the BRB do we want? If we want something that will act like a normal ball, we may be in for a long wait, if we want a BRB that acts just like a normal mob in a mayhem mission, then that should be 100% possible.

 

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OMG. Made of win. So hard! MUST HAVE BRB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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*blink*

Why hasn't this happened yet?

*taps foot*

 

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Big Red Ball has been sighted in Inventions! However, it was deemed overpowered and has been nerfed down to Little Puce Spheroid.

Sorry.

 

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I'm not sure how many of you may have seen the Pepsi commercial, but they so stole this idea. I say they need to be brought down, unless Kythorn maybe asked them for a ball since the Devs are to busy fearing the idea.

Protector: Tulare 50 Inv/SS/EM-ph1x3r 47 Bots/Traps
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Still want a big red ball. Still want it done the same way debris are done since we can now kick those around at will meaning there would be no additional coding needed except the graphics for something that looks the same from all sides.

Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!

 

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Still want a big red ball. Still want it done the same way debris are done since we can now kick those around at will meaning there would be no additional coding needed except the graphics for something that looks the same from all sides.

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Which, to an extent, exists already. so there's not a huge reason why we don't have a big red ball

No

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

I think you underestimate our fools, sir.

Why /duel is a bad idea