Theory On Favoritism Whatchamacallit
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-24 18:20 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.
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Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.
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This was the idea I liked the best when regen nerfs were coming down the pike. I hope it's still being considered as the tech becomes available.
Even before Integration had a heal factor, I commonly would run missions solo with just Int, reconstruction and dull pain. I think where many regens got the 'stand and fight' mentality is from having to deal as much damage as quickly as possible to forestall faceplanting. Until instant healing, we were melee blasters that healed and recovered end faster.
Unlike the other sets, Regen didnt (and still doesnt) have the mitigation the other sets do beyond what the primary provides. What we do have is less downtime between those fights.
Considering that the majority of the many powers that cause -regen cause -speed as well, it would be nice if instant healing gave us protection from -speed if not from -regen. It seems a fair trade to me for having those -regen/-speed powers always hit.
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
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Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.
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Logic error?
Spectral wounds - TRACKS EACH HIT - then heals after specified time.
Regen - to do this, we'd have to TRACK EACH HIT...
Per'aps me Eeengleesh ees no good? Iddn't dat de same t'ing, mon?
Or, in simpler terms... This one is a hammer I made. For that to work, I'd have to make a hammer...
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Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.
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Logic error?
Spectral wounds - TRACKS EACH HIT - then heals after specified time.
Regen - to do this, we'd have to TRACK EACH HIT...
Per'aps me Eeengleesh ees no good? Iddn't dat de same t'ing, mon?
Or, in simpler terms... This one is a hammer I made. For that to work, I'd have to make a hammer...
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In simpler terms:
Spectral wounds is one specially coded attack.
To make the "damage recovery" thing fly, every single damaging power in the game would have to be recoded to potentially heal back damage. For one set. Based on whether or not a particular power is activated. In fact, it would probably necessitate a complete reworking of the entire damage system, both PvE and PvP. You'd have to work in a blaster's unresistable damage. You'd have to work the enhancements. You'd have some god-awful server-side processing to do with DoT attacks like burn and rain of fire.
Yeesh.
And your attempt at some weird kind of Jamaican accent to make your point clearer to _Castle_ comes off as bigotted trolling, suggesting that folks of Carribean heritage just aren't up to your high standards of intellect.
Thread getting locked in 10 ... 9 ... 8 ...
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Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.
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Logic error?
Spectral wounds - TRACKS EACH HIT - then heals after specified time.
Regen - to do this, we'd have to TRACK EACH HIT...
Per'aps me Eeengleesh ees no good? Iddn't dat de same t'ing, mon?
Or, in simpler terms... This one is a hammer I made. For that to work, I'd have to make a hammer...
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In simpler terms:
Spectral wounds is one specially coded attack.
To make the "damage recovery" thing fly, every single damaging power in the game would have to be recoded to potentially heal back damage. For one set. Based on whether or not a particular power is activated. In fact, it would probably necessitate a complete reworking of the entire damage system, both PvE and PvP. You'd have to work in a blaster's unresistable damage. You'd have to work the enhancements. You'd have some god-awful server-side processing to do with DoT attacks like burn and rain of fire.
Yeesh.
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Only if you were closed to the idea of doing it another way. But we don't know anyone like that, do we?
Spectral wounds doesn't track anything. It works like any other power.
It does this:
Power activated
Animation starts
X seconds after animation starts, deal Z damage
Y seconds after animation starts, heal ~Z damage.
the same as anything else.
I'd say the best thing they could do with IH is make it like the Peacebringer Quantum Flight. Put it back as a toggle, just as it was before, but after a certain amount of time, start ramping up the END cost until the player is forced to shut it off. It could be used more often, but the END drain would make it far harder to abuse.
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Spectral wounds doesn't track anything. It works like any other power.
It does this:
Power activated
Animation starts
X seconds after animation starts, deal Z damage
Y seconds after animation starts, heal ~Z damage.
the same as anything else.
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Daddy, thanks for being able to read and differentiate between silliness (aka MULTI-cultural English mashing - since NO errors are made in learning languages), and the simple question of - So... why not?
Isn't every hit BY an Illusion controller w/Wounds 'tracked?;
How is that different from tracking every hit ON a Regen Scrapper?
I think to consider this, you don't think in terms of one battle or matchup, but of zones/map loads... and all the toons on that map.
In my (reputedly bigoted) humble opinion.. of course.
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You think too much.
How many times do I have to tell you.
Give SR and Invul a reconstruction like self-heal; get drunk; profit.
You never explain why that won't fix the problem better than any super smarty pants complicated nonsense you would come up with.
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1. There's no place to put it without restructuring the sets.
2. With the right values, it might make SR equal to regen, but would still make SR too slot-heavy compared to regen.
3. Its very difficult to balance with Invuln, because high +RES + fast heal is much more powerful than +DEF + fast heal; both can have equal damage mitigation, but Invuln will have the best alpha-strike/alpha-volley survivability.
4. It combines too strongly with Elude, and I think the devs don't really want to create an easier way to Elude+AidSelf than there already is. It combines almost as strongly with Unstoppable, and can instantly bail you out of the unstoppable crash.
Putting a half-strength Dull Pain into Practiced Brawler (my current best quick-fix) is probably better for SR. Adding a small amount of scaling RES into invincibility (very small, very very very small) would be better for Invuln. Assuming you were trying to send both sets upward towards Regen.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Each attack from Spectral Wounds damages the target, then after a set period, heals the target. Thus, it's all handled by the attacking power. Regen, however, is a defense set, and would need to track all incoming attacks in order for this to work as described.
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Logic error?
Spectral wounds - TRACKS EACH HIT - then heals after specified time.
Regen - to do this, we'd have to TRACK EACH HIT...
Per'aps me Eeengleesh ees no good? Iddn't dat de same t'ing, mon?
Or, in simpler terms... This one is a hammer I made. For that to work, I'd have to make a hammer...
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What Castle is saying is that the behavior of Spectral Wounds is tied to the power; all Spectral Wounds attacks behave this way no matter who they land on.
What you are saying is any game that can track SW attacks on everyone, ought to be able to track all attacks on someone - that it shouldn't be impossible to code.
And that's exactly what Castle is saying: it would require "new tech" - additional coding - to make such a thing work. At the moment, the game engine doesn't work that way.
If you think you understand how the game engine is written, and can judge how easy or difficult it would be to alter a fundamental piece of it, try exercising that keen mind on determining why toxic defense doesn't exist yet. I've suggested quite a number of ways to make it work myself: all have been judged to be problematic in one way or another.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
How is this different from tracking hits from DoT, like poison/spines? Having a toggle (integration or whatnot) that allows that do help you more than others?
I'm not 100% FOR this suggestion, I just don't think the excuse given by _Castle_ holds water. And I'm 100% AGAINST hypocrisy and double-talk, fwiw. So, is the IDEA worth considering, programming-be-danged?
And for those wanting a heal w/SR? Take Dark Melee... Debuffs their Acc, Siphon Life is a Heal/attack and Dark Regen is a EndRecovery/Debuff attack... And THAT is SYNERGY
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How is this different from tracking hits from DoT, like poison/spines? Having a toggle (integration or whatnot) that allows that do help you more than others?
I'm not 100% FOR this suggestion, I just don't think the excuse given by _Castle_ holds water. And I'm 100% AGAINST hypocrisy and double-talk, fwiw. So, is the IDEA worth considering, programming-be-danged?
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He's not giving an excuse. He's saying it would require changing the engine, and it would take a lot of work to change the engine. You can toss the IDEA around, but its worth noting for context that it doesn't matter how good of an idea it is, if it cannot justify its own cost to implement. So the idea either has to be really really really good, or demonstrated to be really really really necessary. Something worth keeping in the back of your mind while kicking the idea around.
I don't see the hypocrisy in pointing out that a particular idea has an extremely high hurdle to overcome before its likely to be seriously considered as an option.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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How is this different from tracking hits from DoT, like poison/spines? Having a toggle (integration or whatnot) that allows that do help you more than others?
I'm not 100% FOR this suggestion, I just don't think the excuse given by _Castle_ holds water. And I'm 100% AGAINST hypocrisy and double-talk, fwiw. So, is the IDEA worth considering, programming-be-danged?
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To my own employers, I tell them I can develop just about anything for them, it's just gonna cost time and money. What happens after having actually built something, you've made architectural assumptions about how it all works together. There's no getting away from this, because things need to work together, and not just be a hodgepodge of code. Eventually, you make design choices that make certain future design choices nearly impossible to implement.
What _Castle_ is saying is, "No, the current architecture does not admit that concept easily."
Yes, it's a simple basic concept. We have round pegs that go into round holes, right? Well, let's just code up some square pegs that go into square holes, and it'll all work. ... The problem being, there are no square holes. The holes are all round. Every powerset in the game works with round holes. The square peg idea is VERY elegant, but it requires:
1) Adding lots of square holes.
2) Adding square pegs to go into the square holes.
3) Making sure the round pegs don't accidentally go into the square holes
4) Making sure the square pegs don't get forced into the round holes.
This is too much work to the entire game to make one power work better (and it might not actually be "better" after all, once playtesting shows its flaws).
Now, you might think I'm exaggerating with respect to the square vs round bit. To you, perhaps it looks all round, and you don't see what the big deal is. This is one of the most common debates between developers when designing software. When two devs disagree at this level, it takes a while to hash things out. We're outside that circle, looking in, and we're not in a position to tell the architects of the game that the architecture isn't really what they think it is. It might be fair to say that _Castle_'s explanation lacks detail, but it is unfair to dismiss his remarks as an "excuse."
_Castle_ gave us valuable information: that he'd thought of just this idea, and then was shown how much work it would take to implement it. This tells us that, hey, the devs have already considered this idea, and one thought it was pretty decent, but it was fairly obvious to all of them that implementing it would be grossly impractical.
Thanks Bunny Man, that was a very elegant explanation of the problem that puts it on an understandable level for me.
My hope is that as new architectures are added to the game, that this idea may find that 'square hole' to at least try it.
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
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I'd say the best thing they could do with IH is make it like the Peacebringer Quantum Flight. Put it back as a toggle, just as it was before, but after a certain amount of time, start ramping up the END cost until the player is forced to shut it off. It could be used more often, but the END drain would make it far harder to abuse.
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There's an interesting thought. You would of course need a relatively long recharge on it still. I wonder if taking damage could also ramp up the END cost.
Yesterday i went on thinking while driving home and suddenly this idea hit me (i sent this as a PM to Castle):
<ul type="square">[*] Add an invisible bar similar to Fury[*] This bar gets filled every time you take damage; the amount it gets filled with is equal to a percentage of the percentage damage taken (not redundant I mean += Dmg/HP * RegenBuff)[*] The percentage is determined by the regen buffs that are up at the moment[*] Every second this fury like bar will determine the percentage of health you will gain back, then reset.[/list]
Example:
You have a base of 200 HP and 40% healback buff
You take 80 points of damage
Your HP is now 120
Your invisible HealBack bar goes up by 80/200 * 0.40 = 16%
A second goes by and you get a mini self heal of 200 * .16 = 32hp
You end with 152hp
If this was possible, it would be able to make all regen buffs into resistance equivalents, just like Def was finally made equivalent to resistance. The fact that large amounts of damage in one blow can kill fast a regen I think is offset by the fact that he has totally universal mitigation with basically no weaknesses, you may also want to make the regen a bit more stronger than the average resist equivalence just to compensate that too.
The question again: is this technique possible with the current engine? I'm not asking if this idea is something you would even consider, I'm just curious if the current engine can do this.
I know the game tracks damage done right now for damage badge purposes, and we know many conditions can be used to fill a bar like the fury and domination bars.
Good answer, Bunny.
I didn't get the "we have round pegs, those are square holes" situation.
Makes more sense now. Thanks, very much.
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Maybe some day I'll grow up to be as smart as the two of you
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Well from reading through this thread, I'd say your chances are slim. But give it a shot anyway.