heros get blasters and scrappers to do dmg
vills have brutes
controllers >>>>>>>> dominators
corrupters are good, they're kinda like controllers but less controls and a bit more dmg
villains dont get the great buff-bots, we have to make do with corrupters, even though many of them completely ignore their secondary (saw a lv 20 fire/thermal today that hadn't taken any thermal powers except for the first one)
defenders are what make heroes greater than the sum of their parts, we get weakened versions of those buffs (if our powersets include them at all) on an AT with damage as its primary function
in a 1-on-1 fight, the only hero who would (probably) lose is a defender (against their counterparts, etc....)
the AT variability in pvp should tell you quite a lot about how good each set is in it. i dont think i need to tell you what that list looks like
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Overall I think Bodyguard will help with MM survivability in PvP. That said, I'd still like to know what they are going to do about the time it takes a middle to high lvl MM to buff all the pets. The 5-10 minutes it takes to buff up all the pets is one of the main discouraging factors of why there are not more MM's in PvP. I think people can live with the deaths if they could return to action at full strength the way all of the other AT's can.
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The buff time is definately a major issue that MMs have with their AT. No other AT has to waste 5-10 minutes (just over 5 in my case because I slotted 3 recharges into my second tier buff) before they can get back into the game. Many groups, especially PvP groups, don't want to take on a MM because they know the MM will die first, and then be unable to rejoin and contribute for an inordinately long amount of time.
[/ QUOTE ]Well, according to the binder guide, every final upgrade has a base recharge of 60 seconds. So assuming you're trying for max speed with 3 SO recharges it should take you about 2.5 minutes to fully equip.
Not that any of this belongs in a thread about bodyguard. I just had the urge to shoot down some uninformed hyperbole.
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You'd better be willing to shoot down most of this thread then. At this point I'd have no objections, most of the useful commenters stopped pages ago.
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Heh, in my opinion, most of this thread shoots itself down. The folks in question have refused logic and reason from others thus far though. So for me it's a "no point in spending good money after bad" scenario.
It's not how many times you get knocked down that count. It's how many times you get up.
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Well, according to the binder guide, every final upgrade has a base recharge of 60 seconds. So assuming you're trying for max speed with 3 SO recharges it should take you about 2.5 minutes to fully equip.
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And the time to summon them, AND the time to apply buffs from our secondary (if any).
<ul type="square">[*] Summon #1: Assault Bot (a:2.03s, r:n/a) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 2.03s[*] Summon #2: Protectors (a:2.03s, r:n/a) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 4.06s[*] Summon #3: Battle Drones (a:2.03s, r:n/a) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 6.09s[*] Upgrade #1: Assault Bot (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 8.12s[*] Equip #1: Assault Bot (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 10.15s[*] ... wait 28.39s Elapsed time, +28.39s = 38.54s[*] Upgrade #2: Protector A (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 40.57s[*] Equip #2: Protector A (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 42.60s[*] ... wait 28.39s Elapsed time, +28.39s = 70.99s[*] Upgrade #3: Protector B (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 73.02s[*] Equip #3: Protector B (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 75.05s[*] ... wait 28.39s Elapsed time, +28.39s = 103.44s[*] Upgrade #4: Drone A (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 105.47s[*] Equip #4: Drone A (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 107.50s[*] ... wait 28.39s Elapsed time, +28.39s = 109.89s[*] Upgrade #5: Drone B (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 111.92s[*] Equip #5: Drone B (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03 = 113.95s[*] ... wait 28.39s Elapsed time, +28.39s = 142.34s[*] Upgrade #6: Drone C (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 144.37s[*] Equip #6: Drone C (a:2.03s, r:30.42s) Elapsed time, +2.03s = 146.40s[/list]
And that presupposes three things. One, perfect, well-pratised reflexesin lining each power up "just so", so there's no "human error" downtime involved, nor any extra time for chatting, etc. Two, three recharge SO+++'s in both Upgrade and Equip. Three, it does not account for the MASSIVE quantities of Endurance that the above process costs.
Without those recharges? Adding a mere half-second to each step to account for a less-perfect human operator and/or dealing With END issues ...??
<ul type="square">[*] Summon #1: Assault Bot (a:2.03s, r:n/a, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 2.53s[*] Summon #2: Protectors (a:2.03s, r:n/a, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 5.06s[*] Summon #3: Battle Drones (a:2.03s, r:n/a, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 7.59s[*] Upgrade #1: Assault Bot (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 10.12s[*] Equip #1: Assault Bot (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 12.65s[*] ... wait 58.97s Elapsed time, +58.97s = 73.62s[*] Upgrade #2: Protector A (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 76.15s[*] Equip #2: Protector A (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 78.68s[*] ... wait 58.97s Elapsed time, +58.97s = 137.65s[*] Upgrade #3: Protector B (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 139.86s[*] Equip #3: Protector B (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 149.39s[*] ... wait 58.97s Elapsed time, +58.97s = 218.36s[*] Upgrade #4: Drone A (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 220.89s[*] Equip #4: Drone A (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 223.42s[*] ... wait 58.97s Elapsed time, +58.97s = 282.39s[*] Upgrade #5: Drone B (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 284.92s[*] Equip #5: Drone B (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53 = 287.45s[*] ... wait 58.97s Elapsed time, +58.97s = 346.42s[*] Upgrade #6: Drone C (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 348.95s[*] Equip #6: Drone C (a:2.03s, r:60s, h:0.5s) Elapsed time, +2.53s = 351.47s[/list]
So, we've got a worst-case scenario of nearly six minutes (~5:51.47), and a best-case time of just under two and a half minutes (~2:26.40). And in both cases, that's just for the primary. Admittedly, even for /FF, with both shields to apply, that's only about 13 seconds (~0:12.84, actually). But it's also [bmore endurance[/b].
And that's what's REALLY slowing the MM up - if you're not built PRECISELY for dealing with huge "peak END usage" ... you'll spend a lot more time just waiting to recharge end. Or else do what I do - carry blue insps into every mission, to use JUST while in the summon-and-buff phase. TWO of them, per resummon-cycle, in fact.
So. An average time of ~5 minutes? Yeah, I can buy that. Easily.
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controllers >>>>>>>> dominators without Domination active
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Fixed that for you. Remember, Domination brings up the MAGNITUDE of their holds, too. Once the dominator can trigger their inherent, they don't need help to "stack" stuff on resistant targets.
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corrupters are good, they're kinda like controllers but less controls and a bit more dmg
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Corruptors are essentially inverse Defenders - a.k.a. Offenders.
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villains dont get the great buff-bots, we have to make do with corrupters, even though many of them completely ignore their secondary (saw a lv 20 fire/thermal today that hadn't taken any thermal powers except for the first one)
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Masterminds also get buff/debuff secondaries.
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defenders are what make heroes greater than the sum of their parts, we get weakened versions of those buffs (if our powersets include them at all) on an AT with damage as its primary function
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And again .... linchpin. Take the defender down, and the heroes have no buff/debuff mojo. None. Nada. ZILCH.
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in a 1-on-1 fight, the only hero who would (probably) lose is a defender (against their counterparts, etc....)
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Brute against a Tank or Scrapper, 1-v-1? I'd say it's a tossup - except for how hard t is to build Fury in PvP (which the developes have acknowledged as a flaw in balance).
Ok, I know it's semi pointless but.
I have a level 40 MM, it takes me a minute and a half to be "ready enough" to start a mission. That's all Tiers spawned, and two with the second upgrade on them. If I'm still waiting I keep upgradeing if not, I roll with the rest of the team and finish upgrades on the fly.
As to the comparisons between the Hero and Villain AT's, it comes down to the Villains being more flexible due to them being more "hybrid" and the Hero's being stronger in highly defined roles.
I will have to disagree some with Pax_Arcana on the Defender / Linchpin thing however. Controllers have Defender primaries as thier secondary powers, I know I surely use them on my Trollers.
If there is one thing you learn playing as a Villain, it's the fact that you have to learn to be flexible and work with what you have. Brutes and MM's can both tank. Niether can match a "real" Tank but it's the same for the Hero's, in a pinch a Scrapper can fill that role if you have enough debuffers/healers around. My MM has filled in for a Corruptor on more occasions than I'd like, and while not as good as a Controller is at stepping into a Defender role, it does work. Same thing for Dominators, in a pinch Corruptors and MM's can take that role. As always on the other side, an extra Tank or Defender can cover for a missing Troller.
On either side you'll also see the "one type" teams that just steamroll things. A team of Brutes or MM's on the Villain side is pretty much unstoppable, same can be said of all Troller or Defender teams.
My point is, that no one is irreplacable even if the group is a lot less "optimal" than it could be. Villains by their nature are better at this, since they are all focused on damage and there is really never an "optimal" team for them anyhow.
Why aren't you equipping all of your bots during the downtime from the first upgrade?
In PvP I don't even bother upgrading the battle drones. All it gives them is Full Auto Laser, which isn't terribly useful vs. players anyway. It's well worth it to upgrade the prot bots (hello stacked disorient) and the assault bot missiles are just too much fun to ignore. This means pretty much Summon->Upgrade first->Equip All->Upgrade Second->Start hunting->Upgrade third
I have one recharge redux in Equip and three in Upgrade of course. Also, this only counts in Warburg, in Sirens you don't even have Upgrade, and in BB your army is considerably smaller.
For those who are interested, I made a little spreadsheet using the HP numbers listed for robots upthread to show survivability.
For a stalker to drop tier one pets on an initial AS (or a blaster snipe for that matter), they'd have to do between 1400-1500 points of damage.
Click here.
EDIT: stupid forum software and non-attributed quotes ...
Kong-Fu said:
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Why aren't you equipping all of your bots during the downtime from the first upgrade?
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After much practise, I find that I lose more time changing targets around fromminion to minion, than just "pick a bot, run him through the complete cycle ...lather ... rinse ... repeat".
Weekend_Avenger said:
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I have a level 40 MM, it takes me a minute and a half to be "ready enough" to start a mission. That's all Tiers spawned, and two with the second upgrade on them. If I'm still waiting I keep upgradeing if not, I roll with the rest of the team and finish upgrades on the fly.
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I consider "less than 100% prepared" to be "as good as 100% unprepared". Personal playstyle issue, perhaps.
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I will have to disagree some with Pax_Arcana on the Defender / Linchpin thing however. Controllers have Defender primaries as thier secondary powers, I know I surely use them on my Trollers.
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Some controllers have Defender Primes for their secondaries. Stormies don't really count. And regardless, most controllers are probably not going to make as heavy an investment into their secondaries, as a Defender will make into his or her primaries - yes?
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Villains by their nature are better at this, since they are all focused on damage and there is really never an "optimal" team for them anyhow.
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That, actually, is my point - Villain teams have the pseudo-advantage of no single member's loss cutting any significant ability out of the team's repertoire, barring specific builds on the part of various team members.
Hero teams can see entire categories of ability reduced to the point of near-nullification by the loss of a single member.
Speaking, in my case, of five-member "one of each AT" teams, which is probably how the developers look at PvP balance.
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EDIT: stupid forum software and non-attributed quotes ...
Kong-Fu said:
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Why aren't you equipping all of your bots during the downtime from the first upgrade?
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After much practise, I find that I lose more time changing targets around fromminion to minion, than just "pick a bot, run him through the complete cycle ...lather ... rinse ... repeat".
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WHAT? You find you're having trouble choosing a second target and equipping and then switching back during the twenty eight second downtime between upgrades? That doesn't make any sense at all.
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Weekend_Avenger said:
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I have a level 40 MM, it takes me a minute and a half to be "ready enough" to start a mission. That's all Tiers spawned, and two with the second upgrade on them. If I'm still waiting I keep upgradeing if not, I roll with the rest of the team and finish upgrades on the fly.
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I consider "less than 100% prepared" to be "as good as 100% unprepared". Personal playstyle issue, perhaps.
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Oh please. If the battle drones don't have Full Auto Laser yet, they're still good enough for most battles. Sure you won't be killing mobs as fast as you do once everything is fully upgraded, but you're killing way faster than you would be sitting at the entrance watching Upgrade cycle. It's not like regular spawns are likely to kill any of your bots (unless they're CoT), you'll just be going a bit slower. I typically start fighting with only the Assault Bot and one Protector upgraded, although the second Protector is usually upgraded after the first spawn. After that, I just upgrade the drones as the power comes back up, although on small missions (newspaper missions) I'll often be nearly finished before the upgrade cycle is finally complete.
Wow Pax! You really put a LOT of work on that post. And I want to say up front that I give you respect and props for that. And I freely admit I neglected to alot for FF buffs in the setup time.
This was due to my playstyle. As another poster already noted, your method is to apply both buffs to 1 pet before moving to the next. My method is simply to apply both buffs to my 3rd tier pet (sometimes before I've summoned all three tiers.) and apply the 1st buff to remaining pets. Usually the 2nd buff has recharged as I get to my 5th pet. Then I finish out the buffs. If I were a /FF MM I would apply those buffs between applying the 2nd upgrade to my 4th through 6th pets when end is less an issue.
Throughout the buffing process I lessen the time lag caused by human error by targeting my next pet and cueing the buff as it recharges. So minimum buffing time, for my slotting, is something I approach fairly regularly.
Not that you'd know it by my build. My 1st upgrade has 1 rechrge and my 2nd has only 2 (both have 1 end). I usually tell folks that I need 4 minutes for my summon and buff cycle.
Oh and if targeting pets with the pet window doesn't appeal, then a friend of mine discovered a nifty command to work into a bind or macro.
target_custom_next mypet
And btw Pax, I also appreciate you sharing your playstyle on buffing as I'd not thought of it.
Nuthin but love.
It's not how many times you get knocked down that count. It's how many times you get up.
I have both of mine fully slotted for recharge and use the time between for adding additional buffs. Then I finish off by turning on Dispersion, Tactics, Assault, and Force Bubble.
Even I think its a tad long to set up and it becomes tedious in PvP if you spend 30 seconds in PvP after 3 minutes of prep time and another 2 or 3 minutes traveling to the opponent. Masterminds also can't be raised in PvP as they are sitting ducks for 2 or 3 minutes getting all of thier pets ready where any other AT would be up and PvPing in 30 seconds or less.
As such its only fair that we are as difficult to kill as the time we have to be spend getting ready to fight.
Now as for /Thermal Radiation not being able to solo at the highest difficulty settings, thats because its a poorly designed and under powered set. An Ideal powerset would be equally good at Soloing or Teaming. /FF and /Empathy are also like this as defender sets. They work exceptionally well in a team well maybe not /FF its ideal for Controllers and Masterminds, but are sorely lacking in Solo play. Melt Armor and Heat Exhaustion are badly placed at the end of the set when they need to be much closer to the begining when players intially spend thier first 10 levels or so Soloing. It also lacks self buffs and control powers that are staples of the Soloing sets.
All in all a poorly designed wanna be Empathy set.
That being said its easier to solo with then a Fire/Fire blaster, but I wouldn't try either of those on the Highest difficulty scale.
Try out a /TA Mastermind and see if you can solo at the highest difficulty setting. All ATs have sets that underperform or Overperform in soloing. (Regen anyone?)
Yeah I have to say I can't understand why you wait to cycle the buffs on each pet in turn fully - no wonder it takes you so long to get started on a mission. The way I prepare my ninjas is like this:<ul type="square">[*] Summon Oni[*] Summon Jounin[*] Summon Genin[*] Kuji-in-Zen Oni[*] Train Oni[*] Train Genin #1[*] Train Genin #2[*] Train Genin #3[*] Train Jounin #1[*] Kuji-in-Zen Jounin #1[*] Train Jounin #2[*] Smoke Flash Jounin #1[*] Shadowfall[*] Assault[*] Tactics[*] Kuji-in-Zen Jounin #2[/list]The train ninja power recharges so much faster than Kuji-in-Zen that it is silly not to use the time in between Kuji recharging to get on with training the other ninjas. So by the time all that is done, all my ninjas have at least the first upgrade, and tiers 2 & 3 have both upgrades. I can then just apply Kuji-in-Zen to my tier 1's while going through the mission - there is no need for me to delay getting started just because my tier 1's don't have the top upgrade yet (they've managed at least 31 levels without it anyway!). There is plenty of time while powers are activating / recharging to select the next henchman and queue the next upgrade - it doesn't take any extra time whatsoever. The only thing that can slow me down is if I run out of endurance, but if I have a full bar at the start and am not running any toggles then that doesn't happen - occasionally I will want to have Shadowfall up during the preparation phase (if there are nearby mobs), but that only really adds a few seconds while I wait for my endurance to come back up a bit towarsds the end.
Using your method, in the time it took me to get mine ready, I would have 3 ninjas fully upgraded and 3 of them with no upgrades at all - and no toggles up either.
How did we get onto this anyway? 
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WHAT? You find you're having trouble choosing a second target and equipping and then switching back during the twenty eight second downtime between upgrades? That doesn't make any sense at all.
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Perhaps it will make sense when you consider my secondary: /Force Fields. The two mini-bubbles pop back VERY quickly. I find it faster - and, no less importantly, EASIER - to select a single pet, and tap out the number keys for the various buff-and-bubble powers I'll be applying.
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Oh please.
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"Oh, please", your own damned self. Like I said, P E R S O N A L P L A Y S T Y L E (maybe writing it that way will help it find it's way through your skull, this time ...). I simply don't like to go into a fight with less than everything at my disposal up, prepped, and ready to rumble. Literally:
<ul type="square">[*] Select the next pet in the list[*] hit "5" for Upgrade[*] hit "6" for Equip[*] hit "7" for dispersion shield[*] hit "8" for insulation shield[*] IF unbuffed pet(s) remain THEN repeat process[/list]
So, "click, tap ... tap ... tap ... tap", for each pet.
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For those who are interested, I made a little spreadsheet using the HP numbers listed for robots upthread to show survivability.
For a stalker to drop tier one pets on an initial AS (or a blaster snipe for that matter), they'd have to do between 1400-1500 points of damage.
Click here.
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I don't know how you got the AoE numbers...
If I understand Bodyguard right... you have 6 pets out... that means 6 shares for pets plus 2 shares for you.
AoE means that each pet would get one share of the 100 damage plus the whole 100 damage.
Now... there are 8 shares = 6+2
100/8 = 12.5
so one pet would get 100+12.5 = 112.5
for the tier one pets that would be 480 - 112.5 = 367.5
but you have their health at 347.5. Am I missing something?
The poster upthread indicated an extra base damage amount for the lower lvl pets (2 lvls below mm) and so they factored in an extra 20% for first tier, and an extra 10% for for second tier pets (1 lvl below mm). I don't know if that's actually how it works, but it makes sense to me so that's where the "extra" damage is coming from.
It did get me thinking though, I had left that "extra" damage in my single target attack columns. I've edited those and now they should be right. I'd just like to say...WOW! You better bring a lot of friends to kill MMs with bodyguard up.
By the time you're done upgrading your last drone using your system, the bubbles will already be faded from the first bot and you'll have to reapply them anyway.
Personally, I don't find the single target bubbles to be all that necessary in most missions, at least when solo. I often don't bother until I see a tough mob in the next spawn.
Also, did you know you can slip in Insulation and Deflection while waiting for Equip to recharge? It's endo hungry to do that, but if you have Stamina you'll squeeze through with just barely enough endo by the end of full equip + 2 upgrade + all bubbles, assuming you remember to turn off the toggles before you upgrade.
Personally, the process is still a bit slower than I'd like on teams, which is why I have SuperJump (so I'm usually the first person to the mission, and with enough time that I'm well into the summon/upgrade cycle before the Fliers and SSers make it to the door). Once the team is at the door and I have them all bubbled, I usually just tell them to go and I'll finish up my upgrades and equips on the fly. The bots don't tend to last as long in teams anyway, so it's more like a constant stream of resummons, equips, and upgrades anyway.
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yeah yeah we all know that's the excuse the devs say all the time, you dont need to repeat it again
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It's not an excuse, it's the design paradigm - IOW, the very GOAL the developers are aiming for.
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Thats the stated goal, and its nice to say, but the way the two different sides are being designed is not leading to the stated goal.
1-1 heroes currently (I say currently because it might change someday) excell in every single area of the game over villains. The best healers are heroes, best damage dealers are heroes, the best damage takers are heroes, the best controllers are heroes, the best buffers/debuffers are heroes.
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The best Stealthers are villains (Stalkers), the best Pet-summoners are villains (Mastermind), the highest-damage-output characters are villains (Brutes in the full swing of Fury), and the best jack-of-all-trades characters are villains (Corruptors and dominators).
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If heroes excell over villains in every single category of the game, then how can villains SUDDENLY be balanced with heroes in a group environment, if all player skill levels are equal? They can't.
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One word: SYNERGY. To elaborate: the whole is grater than the sum of it's parts.
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If the members of a villain team are individually less capable of what their purpose is than the members of a hero team, that villain team is NOT going to be balanced against the heroes.
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No one villain is really intended to be "the" person for X, Y, or Z purpose within a team, however. A Hero team with a single member of each archetype, who loses the defender? They now have almost ZERO serious buff/debuff capability. A Villain team that loses ANY particular member, however? Corruptor goes down? The Dominator and, perhaps, Mastermind are still able to send out ranged damage. The Mastermind can keep up with the buffing/debuffing, and perhaps healing.
Villain teams don't have linchpins; they don't have single, clearly-defined roles on their teams. Instead, they blur the lines between archetypes, and between those roles.
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Well this is one of the sillier comparisons I have seen. The OP corectly points out that Heroes have all of the major powers in the game, and you cite the villains ummm niche roles as if they matter? Stalkers are the best umm stealhters? great they can hide! now only if that mattered since as soon as they are seen they are toast! MMs are the Pet masters! Wahoo! as if that mattered since the superior damage and defenses of the Heroes make short work of the MM and then they pets fall dead as puppets with the strings cut. Brutes? Highest damage? In what world do you live in? firstly the DPS output of Brute is significantly lower than both Blasters and scrappers. Additionally-the "burst" damage king is actually stalkers (with /em blasters using build up and aim probbly a close second). As for your Jack of all trades? Again you are mistaken-Doms for certain are no such thing. CONTROLLERS are the true jack of all trade-the best control, great heals, buffs, debuffs, and damage output for many builds-that with containment - superior to the Dom. I know-I have plaed 3 trollers to 50, and several doms (into the 30s) and the comparison is night and day...
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Well this is one of the sillier comparisons I have seen. The OP corectly points out that Heroes have all of the major powers in the game, and you cite the villains ummm niche roles as if they matter? Stalkers are the best umm stealhters? great they can hide!
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Okay. So that team of four villains you can JUST make out, way over there? Is it really a team of four villains, or do they have a stalker or three tagging along, too ...? No way to know for sure, except find out "the hard way" - by which time, dependign on builds/powers ... you may already be sucking pavement.
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MMs are the Pet masters! Wahoo! as if that mattered since the superior damage and defenses of the Heroes make short work of the MM and then they pets fall dead as puppets with the strings cut.
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Helooooooo ... Bodyguard, remember? Put all six pets in Bodyguard stance, and suddenly I have an un-de-buffable 75% Damage Resistance - that, I might add, stacks multiplicatively with any damage reduction I might have from OTEHR sources. Like buffs applied by team-mates, or by eating some inspirations, etc.
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Brutes? Highest damage? In what world do you live in? firstly the DPS output of Brute is significantly lower than both Blasters and scrappers.
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I did specify "with full Fury". You know, that little inherent that gives them up to +300% damage?
actually this is a pretty good question. I'd like the answer too.
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Personally, the process is still a bit slower than I'd like on teams, which is why I have SuperJump (so I'm usually the first person to the mission, and with enough time that I'm well into the summon/upgrade cycle before the Fliers and SSers make it to the door).
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I have Teleport for the same reason. Well, Teleport + Hover. 'Cause I kept missing when I tried to chain-teleport. And falling hurts. Especially into clusters of purple enemies. 
I did specify "with full Fury". You know, that little inherent that gives them up to +300% damage?
Maximum Fury is only a 200% buff. A brute at her damage cap is the most damaging creature in the game but it takes a great deal more effort to reach this goal than it does for a scrapper or blaster.
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Well this is one of the sillier comparisons I have seen. The OP corectly points out that Heroes have all of the major powers in the game, and you cite the villains ummm niche roles as if they matter? Stalkers are the best umm stealhters? great they can hide!
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Okay. So that team of four villains you can JUST make out, way over there? Is it really a team of four villains, or do they have a stalker or three tagging along, too ...? No way to know for sure, except find out "the hard way" - by which time, dependign on builds/powers ... you may already be sucking pavement.
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MMs are the Pet masters! Wahoo! as if that mattered since the superior damage and defenses of the Heroes make short work of the MM and then they pets fall dead as puppets with the strings cut.
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Helooooooo ... Bodyguard, remember? Put all six pets in Bodyguard stance, and suddenly I have an un-de-buffable 75% Damage Resistance - that, I might add, stacks multiplicatively with any damage reduction I might have from OTEHR sources. Like buffs applied by team-mates, or by eating some inspirations, etc.
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Brutes? Highest damage? In what world do you live in? firstly the DPS output of Brute is significantly lower than both Blasters and scrappers.
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I did specify "with full Fury". You know, that little inherent that gives them up to +300% damage?
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I dont really want to turn this into a he said she said, but you can't compare full time, 100 % , superiorities the heros have (Best dam, best buffs, best heals) and compare this to some situational sometimes comparisions of villains. If you read the boards, you will read a damage comparison and yes, a Brute at full fury "Slightly" edges a scrappers full time DPS-However a brute probably spends less than .01% of his time at full fury! personally, I dont think I've ever attained full fury... so generally with good fury management I'm running around at some % (70 to 80) of a scappers anytime damage. Oh yeah-In PVP-its less than tha and scraps dont need to pick fights with NPCs in the battle zones to do that damage either. MMs body guard has never been used, so no one know how it can and will function. One defender on a team is enough to undo the entire strategic advantage of the Stalker (stealth). I'm not saying villains are pathetic, but you dont have to be mining the statistics -just playing on both sides, to know there are substantial issues requiring boosts on the villain side. Bodyuard is a good step for balancing MMs. Better control/dam for doms (or a timed dom bar). Easy fury building for Brutes, to put them on par with tanks/scraps. Be prepared-these villain boosts are coming for sure.
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I dont really want to turn this into a he said she said, but you can't compare full time, 100 % , superiorities the heros have (Best dam, best buffs, best heals) and compare this to some situational sometimes comparisions of villains. If you read the boards, you will read a damage comparison and yes, a Brute at full fury "Slightly" edges a scrappers full time DPS-However a brute probably spends less than .01% of his time at full fury! personally, I dont think I've ever attained full fury... so generally with good fury management I'm running around at some % (70 to 80) of a scappers anytime damage. Oh yeah-In PVP-its less than tha and scraps dont need to pick fights with NPCs in the battle zones to do that damage either. MMs body guard has never been used, so no one know how it can and will function. One defender on a team is enough to undo the entire strategic advantage of the Stalker (stealth). I'm not saying villains are pathetic, but you dont have to be mining the statistics -just playing on both sides, to know there are substantial issues requiring boosts on the villain side. Bodyuard is a good step for balancing MMs. Better control/dam for doms (or a timed dom bar). Easy fury building for Brutes, to put them on par with tanks/scraps. Be prepared-these villain boosts are coming for sure.
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My suggestion is to not even bothering the discussion with these people. They want to twist words and show slanted statistics to show their point, rather than face the cold hard reality.
"Stalkers are the best stealthers" Yea...so? Doesn't mean much when everyone on the other side has multiply stacked CM, and it will mean less once the scrappers and tanks have access to focused accuracy.
"MMs are the best pet masters" BIG WHOOP. Those pets can't chase down fleeing targets, and they can't keep up with the MM either. Pets deal slow and steady damage, and have no burst potential. In the PvP game, burst damage is where the kills come from. As far as bodyguard...it may prolong lives a little, but it is a FAR FAR CRY from what MMs need to make them viable.
Brutes...yea, brutes do slightly more damage than a scrapper IF they have full fury. Sounds great, but its almost impossible to keep fury up in a PvP environment. Want to go beat up on NPCs to build fury? Fine, be prepared for a hero to jump in and now you're fighting the NPCs AND the hero, with a huge chance of incurring debt.
Lets face it, put together a team...lets say a hockey team, with well rounded generalist players (the villains) and put them up against a team with a couple of hotshot defensemen (defenders) a top notch goalie (tanker) and some serious offense (blaster, controller, and scrapper in the left/right wing and center positions). Who do you think is goin to win? NOT THE GENERALISTS! They may be all around good players, but the specialized skills that are brought into play by the heroes are going to win the day. Realistically thats why some sports professionals get paid the big bucks while others get paid far far less and still are professional players. Another example...lets field a squad of soldiers....good generalist grunts with regular equipment. Against them in a wargame lets place a squad consisting of a of Marine Corps sniper and spotter pair, a 4 man seal team, and round it off with a heavy weapons section and a commander. Lets say both squads consist of people who are fresh out of training and will be given sufficient time to train together prior to the exercise. Who do you think is going to win? Probably not the generalists. They just don't have the training and equipment to compete with the specialists....training and equipment equates to powers in CoX. Now, lets take those two squads....this time we take a squad of grunts with significant combat experience against the same group of specialists fresh out of training. Who is going to win now? Hard to say isn't it? The generalists still don't have the nice equipment the picked squad of specialists have or the same level of training, but they have experience, and we all know that can make a difference.
Unfortuantely, experience can only do so much. Now, take that squad of experienced grunts, and place them in a lopsided wargame that gives the specialists the advantage (such as SC). Half of the map is full of other soldiers the specialists can call on for assistance. Another quarter of the map is full of antagonists that will fight against either squad, and the last quarter of the map is basically empty for the most part. Those experienced soldiers are going to be hard pressed to win...although they still can.
Back to the game:
Whats more, Villains are getting patron powers that they will NOT be able to respec out of, while heroes can respec out of their epic sets at will. We've been told that the patron powers are going to be more powerful than the hero epics to make up for that....however lets take a look at some facts:
1) controllers can take Psionic Mastery, in which you find powers such as Indomitable Will, which will provide status protection and Mind over Body for damage resistance. While some villain sets will provide resistance options, no status protection option is available.
2) Scrappers and Tanks both have access to Focused Accuracy. This is a base +25% accuracy, which is HUGE in PvP. Sure, its endurance heavy, but 6 slotted for end reduction and accuracy it is a HUGE advantage even before you figure in the perception bonus.
3) Blasters have access to Force Mastery. This is a game breaker right here. This set allows Blasters to get PFF (without the 2 minute reset villain PFF has been nerfed with...they have 15 seconds, or 7.7 if they slot it with 3 recharges. That means lower it, run through an attack chain, and raise it for safety). Aside from PFF it also provides repulsion field, temp invulnerability, and force of nature. All of which are going to make it MUCH harder for anyone to hurt blasters, but especially melee ATs (such as stalkers, who seem to be the only AT the heroes really worry about currently).
4) Defenders will all get access to telekenesis and mass hypnosis....so now we have even more to worry about than only certain defenders with storm...all defenders will be able to repel and confuse.
Now, lets see what some of the villain ATs are getting in return.
5) Stalkers - Ooooh, snipe. This could be good! OH WAIT. It is only at HALF the base damage of a blaster snipe. I thought our powers were supposed to be POWERFUL to make up for the fact that we can't respec out of patron powers! No powers to increase stealth. No powers to increase accuracy. Basically NOTHING that helps us build on our current abilities, not the way the epics do for scrappers and tankers.
6) Dominators - HEY! WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE DON'T GET A STATUS PROTECTION POWER!!!!! Yea, thats right. Controllers can get protection, but not dominators.
7) Corruptors - No PFF, Force of Nature, or Temp Invulnerability? Oh yea, this is balanced.
8) MMs- None of the patron powers will help our pets??? No new pet buffs or ANYTHING pet related??? [censored]?
Oh yea...but our powers are going to be "more powerful" to make up for that inability to respec and change patrons. We'll see, but so far, they better be OVERWHELMINGLY powerful to make up for the deficiencies. Personally, Pets just don't impress me.
bodyguards, cool
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Overall I think Bodyguard will help with MM survivability in PvP. That said, I'd still like to know what they are going to do about the time it takes a middle to high lvl MM to buff all the pets. The 5-10 minutes it takes to buff up all the pets is one of the main discouraging factors of why there are not more MM's in PvP. I think people can live with the deaths if they could return to action at full strength the way all of the other AT's can.
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The buff time is definately a major issue that MMs have with their AT. No other AT has to waste 5-10 minutes (just over 5 in my case because I slotted 3 recharges into my second tier buff) before they can get back into the game. Many groups, especially PvP groups, don't want to take on a MM because they know the MM will die first, and then be unable to rejoin and contribute for an inordinately long amount of time.
[/ QUOTE ]Well, according to the binder guide, every final upgrade has a base recharge of 60 seconds. So assuming you're trying for max speed with 3 SO recharges it should take you about 2.5 minutes to fully equip.
Not that any of this belongs in a thread about bodyguard. I just had the urge to shoot down some uninformed hyperbole.
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You'd better be willing to shoot down most of this thread then. At this point I'd have no objections, most of the useful commenters stopped pages ago.