[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind, we can't bubble ourselves!!!! Thats what people who don't have the secondary always seem to forget.
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You mean Personal Forcefield, Dispersion Bubble, Repulsion Field, and Force Bubble DON'T bubble the Mastermind??? Who knew?!
[ QUOTE ]
Damage bypassing the pets forcefeild defense is a NON-ISSUE if they are not being attacked in the first place! Not only that, but such damage is severly reduced because its only a share of the damage. You, the Mastermind, will be long dead before your Henchmen will while in Bodyguard mode, unless your being hammered by AoE attacks (the bane of the Mastermind's existance) or multiple attackers, in which case your out numbered to begin with.
[/ QUOTE ]
It most definately IS an issue. You are still missing the point. Other secondaries are able to effectively fight back, heal their pets, or both. FF is NOT able to do that. While other secondaries have their damage split with their pets the same way FF does, they have OTHER abilities they are able to use in combat. The problem is that the most important powers of our secondary are being made worthless. No other MM secondary is suffering from anything like this. Our secondary is about DEFENSE but that defense only applies to our minions, not to us. That defense is being ignored. Sure, our minions are not being attacked...why should they be? They can be killed by pumping the damage through the MM instead, and there is NOTHING we can do about it. Other sets can fight back, heal, or both, but not FF secondary.
[ QUOTE ]
Take Aid Other from the Medicene Pool and put and Interupt Reduction Enhancement in it, it helps tremendously in using it, and I should note that Forcefield is not the only Mastermind secondary with out a direct heal power.
[/ QUOTE ]
This doesn't change the problem with our SECONDARY. Also, those heals can be interrupted. If the MM is the focus of attacks, we can't heal using aid other or aid self.
[ QUOTE ]
I should also point out that */Forcefeild is not unique in getting defenses bypassed by Bodyguard directly to the the Henchmen. Shadowfall, Forcefeild Drone, Protector Bot Bubbles, and Manuevers all get bypassed in the same way. In fact, */Forcefield is superior to all this in that it can grant the best defense available to the Mastermind Archtype for the Mastermind, meaning fewer attacks will actually get through to hit the Mastermind and then have damaged shared to the Henchmen in Bodyguard mode.
[/ QUOTE ]
How do you figure that? Shadowfall still grants its user protection, Forcefield drone still grants its user protection, protector bot bubbles get used on the user and still grant them protection (and thats not a secondary power), Manuevers still grants its user protection. ALL OF THOSE POWERS YOU MENTIONED STILL GRANT SOME PROTECTION FOR THE USER.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind, we can't bubble ourselves!!!! Thats what people who don't have the secondary always seem to forget.
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean Personal Forcefield, Dispersion Bubble, Repulsion Field, and Force Bubble DON'T bubble the Mastermind??? Who knew?!
[/ QUOTE ]
You know the bubbles I mean...
Are you really this ignorant or just pretending to be?
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
[ QUOTE ]
I should also point out that */Forcefeild is not unique in getting defenses bypassed by Bodyguard directly to the the Henchmen. Shadowfall, Forcefeild Drone, Protector Bot Bubbles, and Manuevers all get bypassed in the same way. In fact, */Forcefield is superior to all this in that it can grant the best defense available to the Mastermind Archtype for the Mastermind, meaning fewer attacks will actually get through to hit the Mastermind and then have damaged shared to the Henchmen in Bodyguard mode.
[/ QUOTE ]
The issue is that while Shadowfall, Forcefield Drone, Protector Bot Bubbles, and Manuevers are all bypassed in the same way as Force Field, they can all be reasonably expected to provide THE SAME protection to the MM. That is, since the damage must first hit the MM, the fact that his henchmen are not protected is irrelevant, since they would have to have made THE EXACT SAME ROLL to hit anyway.
The issue with Force Field is that the MM CANNOT be expected to have the same Defense as his henchmen. The ONLY Defense an FF MM has access to, while still allowing Bodyguard, is Dispersion Bubble. He cannot use either Deflection or Repulsion Bubble on himself. Thus he has less than half the protection he can give to his henchmen.
Thus, it is more efficient for an enemy to attack the MM's henchmen through the MM himself, since he will hit them more often. Even if the MM somehow shunts all the damage away to his men and uses Aid Self to survive, the henchmen will be cleared away much faster than if the henchmen had been targetted separately. This is NOT true with any other MM.
It should probably be pointed out, though, that if the MM has Weave, Combat Jumping, or any other personal Defense, Bodyguard will actually make it protect his henchmen, as well, as long as the MM is the target. So there is both a good and a bad side to this imbalance.
The issue of Resistance being bypassed is a different issue, and in my opinion, much worse. However, I do not believe _Castle_ has sufficiently confirmed that Resistance IS bypassed, all he said is that the MM's Resistance doesn't reduce the henchmen's portion of the damage. He did not say that the henchmen don't get THEIR Resistance to the damage they take. (Which sounds logical)
If this is true, then Shadow Fall, which is the only power to which this applies, should be fine since it provides the exact same Defense to the MM as to his henchmen. If it is NOT true, and the henchmen Resists can be bypassed, then we have the exact opposite problem, as it is the henchmen, not the MM who are not being adequately protected. Although again personal Resistance such as Tough on the MM will not effect the henchmen, as you would expect.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind, we can't bubble ourselves!!!! Thats what people who don't have the secondary always seem to forget.
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean Personal Forcefield, Dispersion Bubble, Repulsion Field, and Force Bubble DON'T bubble the Mastermind??? Who knew?!
[/ QUOTE ]
Personal Force Field, by definition, cannot be used with Bodyguard. Thus its protection COULD NEVER apply to the henchmen.
Repulsion Field and Force Bubble do not provide Defense. They keep foes out of melee range, but they do that for the henchmen as well. (More for Force Bubble than Repulsion Field, but both are designed to keep foes out of melee) However, in both cases the foes can still fire back using ranged attacks. Those attacks have a better chance of hitting the MM than the henchmen, thus the foe would gain the same advantage by targetting the MM. Force Bubble and Repulsion Field do nothing for this.
[ QUOTE ]
What you seem to be forgetting is that even though those attacks are passing your bubbles, it is also passing any resistance that the pets themselves have (for damage dealt through Bodyguard). This hits all MM pets equally regardless of Secondary.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is true. And yes, it does effect all MMs equally. While only Shadow Fall (as I stated above) has a Resistance component, pets usually have their own innate Resistances as well. So this would be bypassed.
However, as I stated above, I don't believe that what _Castle_ said conclusively proves that Resistance is bypassed. Until a redname confirms or denies this, I'm not going to make the assumption that it is bypassed.
I know what Bubbles your talking about and I think your overreacting and just not getting it either. Bodyguard is about the Mastermind, who is the boss, and not the Henchmen. If the bubbles are doing the job of protecting the Henchmen from attacks then they have some extra capacity to absorb damage being directed at the Mastermind that they would not otherwise have. All that damage being directed at the Mastermind is spit into shares and distributed, its like an ablative form of damage resistance, not defense.
And if the Henchmen are not being attacked at all and only the Mastermind, then what good is bubbling the Henchmen in the first place?
Living Henchmen have no use for Dead Masterminds no matter how well the Henchmen are bubbled.
And your being way to quick to disregard the effectiveness of Interupt Reduction Enhancements in Aid Other and Aid Self.
[ QUOTE ]
And if the Henchmen are not being attacked at all and only the Mastermind, then what good is bubbling the Henchmen in the first place?
[/ QUOTE ]
Therein lies the rub.
Twilight Grasp: can be used to heal Bodyguard damage
Darkest Night: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage, AND lower its damage
Shadow Fall: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage
Alkaloid: can be used to heal Bodyguard damage. (Although not the MM, which may make that point moot)
Weaken: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage, and reduce the damage
Noxious Gas: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage, and reduce it
Triage Beacon: can be used to heal Bodyguard damage. (minimally, but at least it effects the MM too)
Force Field Generator: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage
Seeker Drones: protect against Bodyguard damage, and reduce it
Flash Arrow: protects against Bodyguard damage
Poison Gas Arrow: reduces incoming Bodyguard damage
now for Force Field:
Deflection Shield: does NOT protect against Bodyguard damage
Insulation Shield: does NOT protect against Bodyguard damage
Personal Force Field: does NOT protect against Bodyguard damage
Dispersion Bubble: DOES protect against Bodyguard damage
And if you want to include status effect like knockback in that list, then ALL status effects, including the ones used by the other MM sets, protect the MM as well as the henchmen, so that is no difference.
Finally, it's incorrect to assume that just because the MM is being targetted that he will die before the henchmen. He may have Resistances that won't apply to his henchmen. (Even if their own Resistance isn't bypassed) He may have Aid Self. And Dark doesn't even need that.
The issue here is that there are two Powers that Bodyguard effectively renders useless. They may be useful in a PvE environment where the AI is not smart enough to bypass the ally Shields, but certainly a PvP opponent will be smart enough. And even if you assume the Bodyguards will only be hit by the shots fired at the MM because he is drawing aggro on himself, that still means you have two Powers totally bypassed, which no other Power in any MM Secondary is.
Now, maybe you could say that the protection from Def/Ins Shield are so high that the lack of protection from Bodyguard is a balancing issue. That sounds like a rationalization, though, and it's exploitable. It would be simpler to just lower the Def across the board if there is an imbalance. In truth, this is an implementation issue, it's a side effect of the way to hit is calculated and how Defense works. It's not intended, and if MMs had Sonic instead (and if it turns out that Res is not bypassed) then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I still think the best solution is to change PFF so it's the player's version of Def/Ins Shield. Then while Bodyguard bypasses the ally shields, at least the henchmen will have the defense from the MM that he WOULDN'T have. Or put the Defense in Repulsion Field or Force Bubble. (the former would make a bit more sense, I think) It doesn't solve the problem, but at least it takes advantage of the fact that while Bodyguards lose some Def, they gain other Def they aren't supposed to have...
[ QUOTE ]
I know what Bubbles your talking about and I think your overreacting and just not getting it either. Bodyguard is about the Mastermind, who is the boss, and not the Henchmen. If the bubbles are doing the job of protecting the Henchmen from attacks then they have some extra capacity to absorb damage being directed at the Mastermind that they would not otherwise have. All that damage being directed at the Mastermind is spit into shares and distributed, its like an ablative form of damage resistance, not defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't JUST about bodyguard, it is about the interaction of bodyguard WITH the FF secondary, and how it bypasses the purpose of the secondary. You seem to refuse to admit that powers in FF are being made worthless in PvP by the implementation of bodyguard. I am not arguing the fact that bodyguard will allow any MM, even FF secondaries, to live longer. I am trying to make the developers, and the rest of you, understand that bodyguard is making key powers in the FF set worthless in PvP situations. No other secondary is having important powers in the set completely negated.
[ QUOTE ]
And if the Henchmen are not being attacked at all and only the Mastermind, then what good is bubbling the Henchmen in the first place?
[/ QUOTE ]
It does nothing, that is the point. Two very important powers, possibly the two MOST important powers, will be made useless. You just admitted my point, thank you.
[ QUOTE ]
Living Henchmen have no use for Dead Masterminds no matter how well the Henchmen are bubbled.
And your being way to quick to disregard the effectiveness of Interupt Reduction Enhancements in Aid Other and Aid Self.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I recognize the effectiveness of interrupt reduction. However, Aid self and aid other are NOT parts of our secondary, and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't JUST about bodyguard, it is about the interaction of bodyguard WITH the FF secondary, and how it bypasses the purpose of the secondary. You seem to refuse to admit that powers in FF are being made worthless in PvP by the implementation of bodyguard. I am not arguing the fact that bodyguard will allow any MM, even FF secondaries, to live longer. I am trying to make the developers, and the rest of you, understand that bodyguard is making key powers in the FF set worthless in PvP situations. No other secondary is having important powers in the set completely negated.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is inaccurate.
Pre-BodyGuard which is currently. In PvP attackers who isolate the MM are ignoring the bubbles too. This is without the benefit of bodyguard keeping you alive just a little bit longer.
If they atttack the MM only dispersion bubble comes into play with or without bodyguard.
Only without bodyguard your minions survive all the way till you die, with bodyguard shared damage might takeout a minion or two before you die.
I do understand your point, your are getting too defensive and it is detracting from your arguements.
HaloInc
Triumph:
Heroes: Lady Halifax, Miss Kia, WhiteLotus, Agent Immolate, Lady Empathy, Sylence Fyredancer, Maiden of Fire
Villains: Innocent-Ella, Aegis-Sprite, Midnight Dragonfly
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't JUST about bodyguard, it is about the interaction of bodyguard WITH the FF secondary, and how it bypasses the purpose of the secondary. You seem to refuse to admit that powers in FF are being made worthless in PvP by the implementation of bodyguard. I am not arguing the fact that bodyguard will allow any MM, even FF secondaries, to live longer. I am trying to make the developers, and the rest of you, understand that bodyguard is making key powers in the FF set worthless in PvP situations. No other secondary is having important powers in the set completely negated.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is inaccurate.
Pre-BodyGuard which is currently. In PvP attackers who isolate the MM are ignoring the bubbles too. This is without the benefit of bodyguard keeping you alive just a little bit longer.
If they atttack the MM only dispersion bubble comes into play with or without bodyguard.
Only without bodyguard your minions survive all the way till you die, with bodyguard shared damage might takeout a minion or two before you die.
I do understand your point, your are getting too defensive and it is detracting from your arguements.
[/ QUOTE ]
We aren't saying that PvP is fair for us now. We were pleading for some kind of a boost for PvP, primarily something that would encourage heroes to target and kill at least SOME of our pets before going after us. Instead of what we were getting for, we recieved bodyguard. Bodyguard doesn't change the fact that our pets aren't being targeted, and for other MM secondaries that isn't so crippling. For FF secondary, having our pets not be targeted removes the primary purpose of our secondary from the PvP equation. While other secondaries are able to heal/attack/debuff, FF doesn't not have that option. We simply want an implementation of bodyguard that doesn't continue to make key powers in the FF secondary entirely worthless. What good is it to buff your pets with +defense if the pets are NEVER going to be attacked? Nobody is arguing that our pets aren't going to being attacked. We KNOW the pets aren't going to be attacked. It is the fact that the pets won't be attacked that is the problem, because if the pets aren't attacked, we have the most important two powers in FF that become useless in PvP, because they can't be applied to ourselves.
If we are getting defensive, it is because of the constant refusal of some posters to admit that there is a problem. I see post after post after post by people (usually the same people) saying "so what, deal with it." or "its your fault for choosing that secondary" or "pets aren't being attacked now, why should that change?" or any of many similar ignorant comments.
It is hard to have a discussion without being defensive when most of the people posting aren't willing to discuss, and only want to point fingers and accuse.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
So who does like the prospect of bodygaurd
[ QUOTE ]
Bodyguard doesn't change the fact that our pets aren't being targeted, and for other MM secondaries that isn't so crippling. For FF secondary, having our pets not be targeted removes the primary purpose of our secondary from the PvP equation. While other secondaries are able to heal/attack/debuff, FF doesn't not have that option.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, and well stated
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We simply want an implementation of bodyguard that doesn't continue to make key powers in the FF secondary entirely worthless.
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This would only happen if a separate to-hit check is made part of the bodyguard function, and if pet def and resist are applied to BG damage.
Yes this sounds good, but I have no idea logistically if this is possible/feasible or if it would overpower MM's against others in PvP.
However it isnt necessarily BG that is broken but the core issue being that there is no reason to take out pets first. Having Pets survive a MM fatality would be a huge boost to this problem, however raises its own issues. (Pet Travel etc)
[ QUOTE ]
What good is it to buff your pets with +defense if the pets are NEVER going to be attacked? Nobody is arguing that our pets aren't going to being attacked. We KNOW the pets aren't going to be attacked. It is the fact that the pets won't be attacked that is the problem, because if the pets aren't attacked, we have the most important two powers in FF that become useless in PvP, because they can't be applied to ourselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, see however above
[ QUOTE ]
If we are getting defensive, it is because of the constant refusal of some posters to admit that there is a problem. I see post after post after post by people (usually the same people) saying "so what, deal with it." or "its your fault for choosing that secondary" or "pets aren't being attacked now, why should that change?" or any of many similar ignorant comments.
It is hard to have a discussion without being defensive when most of the people posting aren't willing to discuss, and only want to point fingers and accuse.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand being passionate about a game we all play and love. It is just the defensiveness detracts from your argument making it more difficult for people to see the point you are trying to make.
HaloInc
Triumph:
Heroes: Lady Halifax, Miss Kia, WhiteLotus, Agent Immolate, Lady Empathy, Sylence Fyredancer, Maiden of Fire
Villains: Innocent-Ella, Aegis-Sprite, Midnight Dragonfly
I like the idea. Anything that keeps me alive longer can't be a bad thing.
[ QUOTE ]
This changes one of my rules of thumb for PvE which is that the first time I see a mastermind pull out a weapon of their own, I want to kick them from the team. It means that they're drawing more aggro than any corruptor can keep up with on their fragile selves, and time they spend making their own attacks is time that they're not managing their minions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess you would be kicking me, then! It took me about five minutes of not-much thought when I first rolled my MM, but I figured out that if I Aid Another my toughest pet I do additional damage while they keep aggro. Since my MM isn't hurting for Endurance (yet) I do a lot of extra damage-over-time that way, and I don't get killed while dealing it.
This might be an advanced concept, though - I don't see a lot of MMs using their attacks...
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I think I suddenly see why you thought it wasn't painfully stupid to give masterminds three personal attacks in their patron power pools. I still don't think I agree. I would rather that at least one patron offered a status defense, and that at least one patron offered combat invisibility, and that at least one patron offered some kind of minion travel-power buff, and the fourth some kind of click-power long-recharge self heal or hit point buff like Dull Pain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Those would be overpowered abilities, wouldn't they? Besides - the entire point of the EPPs is to give an AT tools that belong to another one. This is why Blasters get armors, and Controllers get Blasts. AoE attacks are precisely what MM's don't get in their own power sets. It's about diversity, not power...
[ QUOTE ]
Could you at least consider replacing the totally useless Follow Aggressive command with a Bodyguards button that does /petcom_all follow defensive?
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope not! I use Follow Aggressive all the time - it reduces personal aggro, especially where there is a spawn nearby that I didn't see.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
So Bodyguard provides a bonus to all MMs, but a somewhat smaller bonus to /FF MMs.
So does this leave /FF MMs gimped, or does it bring them in line with other MMs?
And I mean in a team environment, not solo-versus-the-Zone play.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
So Bodyguard provides a bonus to all MMs, but a somewhat smaller bonus to /FF MMs.
So does this leave /FF MMs gimped, or does it bring them in line with other MMs?
And I mean in a team environment, not solo-versus-the-Zone play.
[/ QUOTE ]
A somewhat smaller bonus especially in PvP where Heroes go after MMs directly.
Gimped maybe a strong word, but there is a disadvantage in PvP.
I'd say that the disadvantage of it would be lessened by a team, but that as always depends on the team.
HaloInc
Triumph:
Heroes: Lady Halifax, Miss Kia, WhiteLotus, Agent Immolate, Lady Empathy, Sylence Fyredancer, Maiden of Fire
Villains: Innocent-Ella, Aegis-Sprite, Midnight Dragonfly
_Castle_ confirmed in a PM that Resistance is bypassed, along with Defense:
[ QUOTE ]
Resistance does NOT apply to damage passed to a pet through Bodyguard.
[/ QUOTE ]
So it does seem as if Defense and Resistance are similarly bypassed. Bodyguard gets the MM's Defense, however, while it does not get the MM's Resistance.
Resistance is a lot rarer in Mastermind powers than Defense, but since I wanted it clarified, I figured I would post that it has been. Besides, it's important to note that Bodyguard will bypass both the innate Resistance AND Defense of your pets.
[ QUOTE ]
So Bodyguard provides a bonus to all MMs, but a somewhat smaller bonus to /FF MMs.
So does this leave /FF MMs gimped, or does it bring them in line with other MMs?
And I mean in a team environment, not solo-versus-the-Zone play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does it leave the MM with a FF secondary gimped? Definately. In a 1-1 situation, an MM without FF still has full access to all of the powers in his secondary. They can all be used usefully and to the fullest extent. The FF secondary MM is left with two powers, possibly the most important two, which don't help him at all. Considering that most FF using MMs will have put 3 SOs into each of these for increased defense, and at least 1 SO in them for reduced endurance cost (I went with 2 so I can combat buff without issues), that makes for 2 powers being effectively useless and a total of 8 wasted enhancement slots (10 in my case).
We are nowhere close to being inline with other MM secondaries in a 1-1 environment.
Currently, being an MM in a group doesn't extend your life expectancy over being an MM alone. Heroes target the MM instantly and automatically, ignoring pets and ignoring other villains, because they know the MM is the fastest and easiest kill in the game. This SHOULD change with the addition of bodyguard. Bodyguard should allow us to live long enough for the group healer (hopefully there is one) to keep us and our pets alive.....however we are still gimped compared to the other secondaries because we are less able to keep OURSELVES alive. We will still lack those healing/debuffing/attacking powers that the other MMs have to contribute. We will be able to buff our pets...so what...they won't be targets. We will be able to buff our team, and that will help them, but it still doesn't change the fact that bodyguard is allowing damage to bypass powers that are crucial to our secondary and damage our pets. If we don't have a healer on the team...or if the healer isn't close by devoting his attention to us then our bubbles are still doing us no good.
Even in team situations, combat is mobile and fluid, and MMs simply cannot be. Our pets lack movement powers, so when things become either RUN AWAY, or LETS GET EM, then we have a choice, like all MMs, of staying with our pets, or staying with our group. If we stay with the group our pets will no longer be in supremacy range and we become vulnerable all over again. If we stay with our pets then we fall into all of the same issues of being solo all over again.
If pets were mobile, this issue wouldn't be as bad, because we wouldn't have to get left behind as often, or leave behind our pets. Unfortunately, the primary issues MMs have been pointing out have yet to be addressed.....pet mobility, setup time, pet pathing, a moronically stupid AI, and lack of any reason for a hero to target our pets before attacking us.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
[ QUOTE ]
So does this leave /FF MMs gimped, or does it bring them in line with other MMs?
And I mean in a team environment, not solo-versus-the-Zone play.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe anyone would say that Force Field for any OTHER Archetype is overpowered, or that it needs to be "brought in line" with the other Power Sets. I know no one will say FF outperforms Dark as a Defender Primary. (Although ironically FF combines well with Dark Blast, while Dark Miasma is a great combination with Energy)
If FF IS overpowered for Masterminds, then they are certainly unique in that.
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So Bodyguard provides a bonus to all MMs, but a somewhat smaller bonus to /FF MMs.
So does this leave /FF MMs gimped, or does it bring them in line with other MMs?
And I mean in a team environment, not solo-versus-the-Zone play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does it leave the MM with a FF secondary gimped? Definately. In a 1-1 situation, an MM without FF still has full access to all of the powers in his secondary. They can all be used usefully and to the fullest extent. The FF secondary MM is left with two powers, possibly the most important two, which don't help him at all. Considering that most FF using MMs will have put 3 SOs into each of these for increased defense, and at least 1 SO in them for reduced endurance cost (I went with 2 so I can combat buff without issues), that makes for 2 powers being effectively useless and a total of 8 wasted enhancement slots (10 in my case).
We are nowhere close to being inline with other MM secondaries in a 1-1 environment.
Currently, being an MM in a group doesn't extend your life expectancy over being an MM alone. Heroes target the MM instantly and automatically, ignoring pets and ignoring other villains, because they know the MM is the fastest and easiest kill in the game. This SHOULD change with the addition of bodyguard. Bodyguard should allow us to live long enough for the group healer (hopefully there is one) to keep us and our pets alive.....however we are still gimped compared to the other secondaries because we are less able to keep OURSELVES alive. We will still lack those healing/debuffing/attacking powers that the other MMs have to contribute. We will be able to buff our pets...so what...they won't be targets. We will be able to buff our team, and that will help them, but it still doesn't change the fact that bodyguard is allowing damage to bypass powers that are crucial to our secondary and damage our pets. If we don't have a healer on the team...or if the healer isn't close by devoting his attention to us then our bubbles are still doing us no good.
Even in team situations, combat is mobile and fluid, and MMs simply cannot be. Our pets lack movement powers, so when things become either RUN AWAY, or LETS GET EM, then we have a choice, like all MMs, of staying with our pets, or staying with our group. If we stay with the group our pets will no longer be in supremacy range and we become vulnerable all over again. If we stay with our pets then we fall into all of the same issues of being solo all over again.
If pets were mobile, this issue wouldn't be as bad, because we wouldn't have to get left behind as often, or leave behind our pets. Unfortunately, the primary issues MMs have been pointing out have yet to be addressed.....pet mobility, setup time, pet pathing, a moronically stupid AI, and lack of any reason for a hero to target our pets before attacking us.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. The developers have already stated that they are not going to be balancing archetypes and powersets for one-on-one encounters in PvP. They balance the game for teamplay. In this case I'd suggest if you want to PvP and have Forcefields providing you the same defense as your henchmen then I'd suggest teaming with another Forcefield Mastermind and buffing each other. If you want healing for your henchmen then team with a character that has healing. In a team situation in PvP and solo/teamed in a PvE the Bodyguard feature is just as valuable to the Forcefield Mastermind as to the other secondaries. The only place that is feeling the hurt is going solo in PvP, and as I stated above the developers are not balancing for this.
wow if they made pff a self-buff version of deflection and insulation shields combined (while letting us attack/etc with it on) that'd be cool, and I'd actually keep it in i7.
doubt they will though, so with my freespec in i7 i'll drop PFF, bodyguard is better off w/out it
another thing people keep saying about how long a MM can survive with bodyguard up...our pets will do crap dmg (especially melee pets) if they're always in bodyguard, even if we can pseudo-tank for a bit, we'll never kill anyone
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't JUST about bodyguard, it is about the interaction of bodyguard WITH the FF secondary, and how it bypasses the purpose of the secondary. You seem to refuse to admit that powers in FF are being made worthless in PvP by the implementation of bodyguard. I am not arguing the fact that bodyguard will allow any MM, even FF secondaries, to live longer. I am trying to make the developers, and the rest of you, understand that bodyguard is making key powers in the FF set worthless in PvP situations. No other secondary is having important powers in the set completely negated.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, Bodyguard has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this. PvP is what is making those two /Forcefeild powers irrelevant. That is the way it is now, before Bodyguard is implemented, and that is the way it will be after Bodyguard is implemented. Nothing really changes does it?
So what does this have to do with Bodyguard at all? And why is is such a detriment to /Forcefeild? Are you even happy with /Forcefeild as it is now without Bodyguard? Because that seems to be the real issue your trying to take.
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I picked it knowing full well it was passive - which means, as the director-of-minions, I take less aggro. Other than strong EBs, and outright AVs/GMs, I am 100% safe in PvE combat; I haven't faceplanted there due to ANYthing except simple stupidity on my own part (IOW, not running away when I should have, and/or simply not paying attention to where I was at the time).
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This has been bugging me for a bit. /FF is NOT very good at avoiding aggro, at least not if you're using the other half of the set. If you only use the Buffs in /FF, then it's not surprising that you're finding it lackluster and boring. /FF is a Buff/Crowd Control set. If you use the crowd control powers, you'll likely take more aggro, but you'll also offer considerably better protection to you and your minions. Keeping enemies disoriented and out of melee range can go a long way to improve your survivability.
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Keep in mind - per my SIG - my /FF is in his mid-20's, so I don't HAVE most of the "affects other people" powers yet, nor have I had the opportunity to get them.
Further, I do not "finding it lackluster and boring" ... indeed, I have NO IDEA where you got the impression that I was. I am finding it to work precisely as I had hoped it would, when I chose the powerset: I play form almost total safety and security, while my minions rip various new orifices in the bodies of my enemies.
Force Bubble is a definite "yes". Repulsion Bomb? No thanks - runs contrary to my concept ("I ain't GOT any real attacks - that's what I have minions for!"). Repulsion Field? I might have gotten it, except I simply don't have room in my build for it. I will happily skip most, if not all, of the PPP's simply to complete my conceptual build.
I'm already looking at being one power pool SHORT; I'm a Teleporter at present. I may need to respect out of Teleport, and make heavier use of Flight (right now I have it solely for Hover, to make chain-'porting easier to pull off). I'll miss Teleport Foe, though. Still, you can't always have EVERYthing you want ...
And I want, other than Teleport/Flight, to have Stamina (Fitness pool), Assault/Tactics(/Vengeance) (Leadership pool), and Aid Other(/Self) (Medicine Pool).
Core's built as pure, 100% support ... he just brings his "team" around in his back pocket, so he's guaranteed to have someone to support (and order around, heh).
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What's more, very very few sets in the game have Repel protection, which means that once you have Force Bubble you'll be nearly immune to Melee attacks (with caveats naturally), which can greatly improve your survivablility.
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Yes, I eagerly anticipate the day I get the Mega-Bubble ... ^_^
What you seem to be forgetting is that even though those attacks are passing your bubbles, it is also passing any resistance that the pets themselves have (for damage dealt through Bodyguard). This hits all MM pets equally regardless of Secondary.
Another thing you seem to be forgetting is that while the MM has less personal defense/resist normally, under full Bodyguard mode, he has a ton of resistance to the damage coming at him. It will take considerably more damage to kill a fully BG MM than one who isn't BG at all. This extra amount of time may be enough to get the person who is attacking you, maybe it won't. We haven't been able to test this yet, so that remains to be seen.
You may have a harder time keeping your pets alive through Bodyguard effects, but you are slightly better off than most MMs because, even if it's small, you have more personal Defense than most other MMs. The fact that they have to use self-buffs just to hit you effectively should be evidence of this. Not all MMs share this perk, just */FF ones. While Dark Miasma does have a self-heal that is AoE, it has to hit something first, and go through a long animation, and, iirc, the pets have to be particularly close to you to get healed at all.
I'm not dismissing your concerns, it just seems to me that from your posts in here are ignoring the bigger MM picture and focusing only one MM Secondary. I personally see you, a */FF MM, getting slightly more use out of this in PvP than others for the sole reason that your enemy has to use ToHit buffs to hit you reliably whereas other MMs don't have this to fall back on.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage