We do. I've tried multiple builds in PvP (although admittedly only Robots/FF in a Warburg setting) and have been having a blast. This probably, however, has something to do with my experience as a Blaster, where I learned to recognize that the biggest risk is often the most fun...you just shouldn't expect to beat the big risk all the time (it IS a BIG RISK, after all). From what I can see, few other MMs have this kind of tolerance, however, and do not even resort to running/Flying/SSing/SJing/TPing away, even when they have no status or secondary effects affecting their mobility.
Stated another way:
Players target us ANYWAY. Even with some kind of inherint mini-confuse or redirection, they still would: take down the general, down go the troops. This will be a fact of life, since it will NEVER be truly harder for a player to target us instead, since even in an imbalanced MM/pet situation, killing pets would be our cue to run...therefore they still don't get us. Bodyguard increases life expectancy from alpha strikes and people who get us without warning, and can only be good, and almost require anyone wanting to one-shot us to have us be engaged with other foes...something they often do anyway! ANY buff like that for us in PvP is a boon, and treating it like poison only shows that you're crazy. I admit, it's not perfect...nothing is. We can lobby for improvement, but don't treat small blessings like terrible curses.
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We do. I've tried multiple builds in PvP (although admittedly only Robots/FF in a Warburg setting) and have been having a blast. This probably, however, has something to do with my experience as a Blaster, where I learned to recognize that the biggest risk is often the most fun...you just shouldn't expect to beat the big risk all the time (it IS a BIG RISK, after all). From what I can see, few other MMs have this kind of tolerance, however, and do not even resort to running/Flying/SSing/SJing/TPing away, even when they have no status or secondary effects affecting their mobility.
Stated another way:
Players target us ANYWAY. Even with some kind of inherint mini-confuse or redirection, they still would: take down the general, down go the troops. This will be a fact of life, since it will NEVER be truly harder for a player to target us instead, since even in an imbalanced MM/pet situation, killing pets would be our cue to run...therefore they still don't get us. Bodyguard increases life expectancy from alpha strikes and people who get us without warning, and can only be good, and almost require anyone wanting to one-shot us to have us be engaged with other foes...something they often do anyway! ANY buff like that for us in PvP is a boon, and treating it like poison only shows that you're crazy. I admit, it's not perfect...nothing is. We can lobby for improvement, but don't treat small blessings like terrible curses.
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I don't see anybody treating this as a terrible curse. I have stated repeatedly that bodyguard mode will definately extend the life expectancy of any MM. I still, however, greatly dislike the fact that FF as a secondary is being expressly and specifically discriminated against. Every other secondary has powers which allow them to fight back, heal, or both. FF secondary is the only one that lacks these powers...opting for a total defense approach, which the developers are setting up to be bypassed and ignored in PvP.
Is bodyguard going to be beneficial? Yes, every other MM secondary benefits to a much greater extent than FF, not because their minions take any more damage than ours when the damage is shared out from us, but because the large majority of other secondary powers are still very useful, while the majority of ours become useless.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
So I think your fight should be on the MM boards, asking to get a boost to FF. Attacking bodyguard IMO isnt the best route. I'm for a boost to FF since Im one too.
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From what I can see, few other MMs have this kind of tolerance, however, and do not even resort to running/Flying/SSing/SJing/TPing away, even when they have no status or secondary effects affecting their mobility.
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I run all the time in Siren's Call. I've become quite practiced at fleeing all the time because if I don't my MM gets pasted.
You can find some amusement in it, like when some bad-*ss scrapper attacks your minion-less MM and you're agile enough to escape leaving them to realize they've completely failed take out an AT with the lowest HP.
I always figured it was part of the Mastermind-schtick. You know, how they always seem to turn tail and head for the hills at the sign of trouble.
Bodyguard sounds like my MM won't have to run away so much. They might even be able to stay in a fight. I'm looking forward to it and seeing how it works in the Call.
everyone always just cites PFF and cries nerf if you ever mention force field, even though mm's PFF only provides half the def of a defenders, and now has a 2 min recharge, even though the rest of the set is lackluster (best skill is dispersion bubble, IMO, because of the status resists)
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I find it interesting that the developers give the community an interesting bonus to the mastermind archetype and rather than be pleased with it we have a thread full of doomsayers. They must be breeding like crazy! What are you people feeding them? 
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If you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion, why are you posting at all?
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Well, if there were any constructive posts to respond to I might have something to work with here.
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So I think your fight should be on the MM boards, asking to get a boost to FF. Attacking bodyguard IMO isnt the best route. I'm for a boost to FF since Im one too.
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This is definately a more agreeable approache I believe. Here is something I can actually agree with.
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So I think your fight should be on the MM boards, asking to get a boost to FF. Attacking bodyguard IMO isnt the best route. I'm for a boost to FF since Im one too.
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I'm not attacking Bodyguard. I'm asking for the devs to consider a change in how it works, and to look closesly at the interaction that it will have between all of the different secondaries. I have said from the begining that I think it will extend the lives of MMs....just that I disagree with the way it is being done, namely that it bypasses what FF secondary is all about.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
I haven't read all the pages of this thread, so please forgive me. Is the issue that you want a to-hit check made for the damage that would be applied to each henchman, for the damage that would be redirected via the bodyguarding feature? Hasn't such a check been made, in effect, on the attack directed at you, the MM.
I admit, though, that since you can't buff yourself, enemies could theoretically defeat your bots by attacking you directly, if you had them in bodyguard mode.
This is one of the reasons I think MMs need to be able to placate their foes, or pets need some sort of taunt.
Oh, well...
ok, DOoooooooooOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOoooooOOOOO OOOOM
ok just kidding, had to get that out of my system.
Actually, I like the idea a lot, props for a creative solution to the problem.
Only difficulty I really see is the supremacy range limitation. Pets don't typically run right next to the player, so if the pets are stuck around a corner somewhere the MM's still going to get ganked.
Still, a lot better then what we had.
Definatly really favors dark heals and triage beacon a little more. Any chance of making poison heals and single target debuffs into AOE like their supposed to be (ala rad), or at least increasing its heal amount to a reasonable level.
lessee, any other mm whines I can pack in here as well, lol 
Oh ya, Do my lvl 1 summoned minions really have to operate at -2 lvls to an even lvl minon after i can summon 3 of em?
Any hope of pets sticking around once were defeated?
Ok I'm really done.
Lookin forward to this one. 
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Definatly really favors dark heals and triage beacon a little more. Any chance of making poison heals and single target debuffs into AOE like their supposed to be (ala rad), or at least increasing its heal amount to a reasonable level.
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since when have poison heals and single target debuffs supposed to have been AOE - isnt the term single target precisely descriptive of what they are supposed to be.
the poison heal is nice that it's a single target, so it doesnt need a to-hit check like /dark's, but the poison one heals a crappy amount of dmg (about 15% iirc) and costs a ton of endurance
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I haven't read all the pages of this thread, so please forgive me. Is the issue that you want a to-hit check made for the damage that would be applied to each henchman, for the damage that would be redirected via the bodyguarding feature? Hasn't such a check been made, in effect, on the attack directed at you, the MM.
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I want my secondary to not be completely bypassed by every hero who decides to pummel me. The current implementation will have ME being the one attacked, so yes, a to hit check has been made...but I'm MUCH easier to hit and have a MUCH lower resistance than any of my minions. My bubbles do extremely little as far as defending myself, they are only good for defending my minions and teammates. The way Bodyguard is going to work, damage pumped into me will be shared with my minions and completely bypass any bubbles I've given them. Every other secondary has powers to heal, fight back, or both. FF is all about defence, but bodyguard is bypassing that defence.
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I admit, though, that since you can't buff yourself, enemies could theoretically defeat your bots by attacking you directly, if you had them in bodyguard mode.
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Thats exactly the point I've been trying to make. Sure, bodyguard will extend the life expectancy of every MM regardless of secondary. However, every other secondary has powers that they can use to fight back, heal, or both. FF doesn't! FF is supposed to help protect our minions and team mates, but this implementation of bodyguard is bypassing any benefit our secondary would provide.
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This is one of the reasons I think MMs need to be able to placate their foes, or pets need some sort of taunt.
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That is what I was hoping for. Give pets a chance to leap in front of any attack coming at us, effectively having the effect of the attacker being confused and hitting the wrong target. They fire, the pet suddenly becomes the target instead of the MM, and the pet takes the hit. Let it only be a percent chance based on how many pets are out (say 20% chance per pet). That will mean heroes will need to target pets BEFORE they can target the MM. Once the MM's pets are whittled down, then the MM can be destroyed....the more pets killed, the easier to target and kill the MM.
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That is what I was hoping for. Give pets a chance to leap in front of any attack coming at us, effectively having the effect of the attacker being confused and hitting the wrong target. They fire, the pet suddenly becomes the target instead of the MM, and the pet takes the hit. Let it only be a percent chance based on how many pets are out (say 20% chance per pet). That will mean heroes will need to target pets BEFORE they can target the MM. Once the MM's pets are whittled down, then the MM can be destroyed....the more pets killed, the easier to target and kill the MM.
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This method still only works defensively. Against one hero the pets will focus on protecting you and counter attack that hero. Against multiple heroes the pets effectiveness would be near useless (for minion level pets) as they all tried to defend from different attackers.
You wont be able to use attack my target or a goto command becasue that breaks bodyguard defensive and follow. Which would make the bodyguard feature only useful for situation where you would need to run away from anyway.
Against 1 maybe 2 heros you can take the offensive and not need bodyguard. Against multiple heroes the pets will scatter and be murdered.
My biggest problem with bodyguard is tieing it to Defensive/follow. The limited pet AI will work against the MM. The best fix would be if pets lasted 60 seconds past the MM death, of course the hero would run away to the next fight cause there is no xp in pets but it does complicate the tactic take out the MM and the pets drop.
I do finally understand problem with FF secondardy and bodyguard, well posted.
HaloInc
Triumph:
Heroes: Lady Halifax, Miss Kia, WhiteLotus, Agent Immolate, Lady Empathy, Sylence Fyredancer, Maiden of Fire
Villains: Innocent-Ella, Aegis-Sprite, Midnight Dragonfly
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Personally, I think there was a much better way to deal with this Mastermind PvP problem, so I think I'll post it and see what everyone thinks.
What if, instead of dying the second their mastermind bites it, the henchmen continued fighting? What if they doggedly chased the person who killed their leader until either he/she or they themselves are dead?
This would change the dynamic. Suddenly the hero would have to make the tactical decision "Is that attackless Mastermind really my primary target?" I think this would give MMs higher survivability because, most of the time, the enemy would naturally come to the conclusion that the top tier pet is the primary target and the MM himself, along with his lower tier minions, is more the mop-up material instead
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Actually This makes the most sense. In PvE when a mob contains a boss you nuke the boss, right? Well in PvE even after you do that you still have to deal with the Leiuts and minis.
The MM should be the same way. Who cares if they don't have travel powers (ninjas DO btw and others should too) this could be solved like so: the opponenet does not get credit for the kill unless the MM AND ALL PETS are taken down.
On annother note: I think Bodyguard would work exceptionally well with 1 other power: PHASE SHIFT. Think about it: with BG a MM can no longer be 1-shotted, but the opponent still has no reason to go after your pets instead of you, so throw on Phase Shift after the 1st attack and take yourself out of the equasion. The pets go after the opponent and you sit back and enjoy the show, and once PS wears off the opponent will still be engaged with your pets so you can stroll right up and throw any countermeasures you may have in your secondary.
As for FF 2ndary Stasis feild is very usefull as it will give you just enough time to re-summon lost Pets and recharge PS.
With this strategy MM may become contenders after all 
Edit: Oh, and as for a fix to Bodyguard: Make the damage shared between the MM and only 1 random Pet 50% for MM and 50% Pet. I think this is a little more balanced and will increase pet longevity.
The problem with putting a ToHit roll into the equation of the Bodyguard ability is the fact that it could reduce the incoming damage to a negligible amount, and with forcefields on the pets, even more so. This might be the same with resistances. So the developers decided not to include these into the equation to keep things balanced. This might still leave Force Field Masteminds feeling like they have little to contribute with their secondaries, but the nature of things hasn't changed and players are still going to try to take down the Mastermind first. Even giving their henchmen a taunt (or the Mastermind a placate) is problematic, simply because as soon as a henchman or two is killed a Mastemind can simply summon more to replace them and then we'd get a never ending (or possibly a one-sided) battle as the Mastermind just resummons his henchmen in battle. You have to look at things from a wider perspective and not just your own personal view when taking things into consideration.
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I still, however, greatly dislike the fact that FF as a secondary is being expressly and specifically discriminated against.
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You do realise "expressly and specifically discriminated against" means that the Devs have come out and said such, right?
I really do not recall seeing that redname post.
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The problem with putting a ToHit roll into the equation of the Bodyguard ability is the fact that it could reduce the incoming damage to a negligible amount, and with forcefields on the pets, even more so. This might be the same with resistances. So the developers decided not to include these into the equation to keep things balanced. This might still leave Force Field Masteminds feeling like they have little to contribute with their secondaries, but the nature of things hasn't changed and players are still going to try to take down the Mastermind first. Even giving their henchmen a taunt (or the Mastermind a placate) is problematic, simply because as soon as a henchman or two is killed a Mastemind can simply summon more to replace them and then we'd get a never ending (or possibly a one-sided) battle as the Mastermind just resummons his henchmen in battle. You have to look at things from a wider perspective and not just your own personal view when taking things into consideration.
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MIGHT leave FF secondaries feeling as if they have little to contribute? I can put bubbles on all of my team-mates and they love me for it. I can help protect THEM from dying, but I can't help protect myself. I can't help protect my minions either, not against players...because players never attack my minions. FF as a secondary for MMs has gaping holes in PvP currently. Things will get a little better for everyone once bodyguard goes live, but those gaping holes aren't going away. The protections I give my pets keep them alive in PvE, but PvP they are rarely if ever targeted. In PvP >I< am the target, and I can't bubble myself. Sure, bodyguard is going to let me take some of that damage being poured into me and shift it onto my minions, but ALL THE BUFFS ON MY PETS ARE THEN IGNORED!!!! Other MMs can keep their pets alive by healing them, can fight back and hopefully kill the attacker before they lose too many pets from bodyguard's shared damage, but FF can't do either one!
I've given suggestions on what I think would be a fair solution...don't have the damage hit the MM at all. Give the MM a 20% chance per pet that is in supremacy range (or even on bodyguard AND in supremacy range) that a pet will leap in front of the attack, and apply ITS defenses and resistances to the attack. If heroes want to kill the MM fast, they will need to take down several of the smaller minions (or lure them away from the MM...or the MM away from the minions) first. Kill 4 pets, and the MM would only have a 40% chance of a pet leaping in front of an attack and saving him. Target the MM specifically and you deal your damage to a random minion. Target the minion of your choice and you can put him down much faster and more efficiently then move on to the next one. If this is too imbalanced, reduce the percentage chance per minion. Make it a 15% chance per minion the is in bodyguard mode, that gives only a base 90% chance of pets taking hits aimed at you, and would more quickly shift the fight in favor of heroes as they killed your pets. One dead pet....75% chance that a pet will take the hit for you. 2 dead pets, 60% chance, 3 dead 45% chance. This would help prevent the insta kills we are facing now, would allow the healing of pets to still be advantageous, would allow FF MMs to actually gain benefit from bubbling their pets, and would buy time for those MMs with attack powers to use more of them.
Simply shifting damage from the MM directly to pets without allowing any defenses to be figured in completely bypasses the entire strength of the FF seondary. IF we could target and bubble ourselves, that wouldn't be an issue...but we can't.
Telling me to look at things from a wider perspective doesn't help either. I have been making suggestions for how to fix the current inequities against all MMs since before they posted bodyguard and what it would do. I have been pointing out the problems that will be inherent with bodyguard since they posted it. It is a step in the right direction, just not a very well thought out step.
Here is your "wider" perspective.....
Suriyama 40 bots and bubbles MM
Angry Cheerleader 40 em/ninjitsu stalker
Hel's Valkyrie 50 Fire/Rad controller
Solitair 43 BS/regen scrapper
Cinder Rella 38 fire/ice tank
Hel's Valkyrie2 37 warshade
The points you made ARE valid. Yes FF maybe a weaker set in PvP. Knowing this why would you make a MM with FF if you intend to PvP?
There will ALWAYS be sets that are weaker than others in PvP and sets that are stronger in PvE. I dont think this will ever change.
Can thinks be more balanced?
Maybe
Are they going to change the way BodyGuard functions to compensate FF secondaries?
Doubtful
What BG will do for you is keep you alive longer so your pets can take a target down. That's what MM's do.
Yes Hero's will still probably ignore your minions to kill >U< but you will stay alive longer to try to kill them back. Maybe its not worth bubbleing minion level pets since they are A) not the target and B) BG will bypass it anyway. (I only bubble Lt pets and boss pet) and yes this does limit the use of your secondary. Fair probably not, but PvP is more then telling pets to "Get EM!" and turning on PFF*.
I believe the best solution is have pets linger post MM death [opps defeat]. Maybe 30 seconds of pet action in PvP maybe only 15-20 seconds in PvE. For fun give em Vengence when their MM dies. When the time lapses the pets die, no matter if you are rez'd or hit a awaken or not.
*Note: not trying to start a debate on the PFF nerf
HaloInc
Triumph:
Heroes: Lady Halifax, Miss Kia, WhiteLotus, Agent Immolate, Lady Empathy, Sylence Fyredancer, Maiden of Fire
Villains: Innocent-Ella, Aegis-Sprite, Midnight Dragonfly
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I haven't read all the pages of this thread, so please forgive me. Is the issue that you want a to-hit check made for the damage that would be applied to each henchman, for the damage that would be redirected via the bodyguarding feature? Hasn't such a check been made, in effect, on the attack directed at you, the MM.
I admit, though, that since you can't buff yourself, enemies could theoretically defeat your bots by attacking you directly, if you had them in bodyguard mode.
This is one of the reasons I think MMs need to be able to placate their foes, or pets need some sort of taunt.
Oh, well...
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Or, FF just needs to provide the same or closer to the same defense to himself that he can provide to the team. Problem solved.
Also, _Castle_ was not entirely clear on whether the henchmen get THEIR OWN resistance against the Bodyguard damage, but he clarified that they do not get yours. While any Defense you have against attack protects your Bodyguards as well, since damage that does not hit you does not hit them. So you could say in both cases that Resistance and Defense only partially protect you and your Bodyguards. (Resistance if it does bypass henchman Res, and Defense because it is lower than normal henchman Def, while debuffs and healing are equally effective)
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Fair probably not, but PvP is more then telling pets to "Get EM!" and turning on PFF*.
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I am so tired of people implying that FF MMs just use an attack command and hide in PFF. Maybe some people do, but definately not all of us. Personally, the only time PFF goes up is when I am outnumbered, or about to die...and honestly, even then PFF is not the "I LIVE" button that most people seem to think it is.
As for the pets living past the death of the MM and recieving a vengence buff....that would be a possibility IF and ONLY IF pets recieved access to movement powers. Without the ability to effectively follow a target, pets would easily be outrun by a hero who simply turned and fled from them once the MM was defeated.
Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice
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Fair probably not, but PvP is more then telling pets to "Get EM!" and turning on PFF*.
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I am so tired of people implying that FF MMs just use an attack command and hide in PFF. Maybe some people do, but definately not all of us.
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Wasnt trying to imply that this was your playstyle/tactic.
I play mostly PvE and have limited experience in PvP
Whenever I have been in a PvP zone I havent seen a */FF MM outside of PFF
HaloInc
Triumph:
Heroes: Lady Halifax, Miss Kia, WhiteLotus, Agent Immolate, Lady Empathy, Sylence Fyredancer, Maiden of Fire
Villains: Innocent-Ella, Aegis-Sprite, Midnight Dragonfly
All this talk about Vengeance and FF and surviving minions is all very well, but I feel the need to point out the prodigious pink pachyderm here.
I see absolutely nothing in Bodyguard that prevents the New Anti-MM Tactic from being "TP Foe FTW!!!1!!eleven!!!"
I have some MMs myself, and from what I've seen, this change is meaningless from a PvP standpoint, for that reason alone. Any word on how this problem will be dealt with? 
nope, no word. either the devs are trying to work on something for it and haven't said yet because they dont want anything set in stone, or they're ignoring mm's
dont hold your breath for any villain buffs that haven't been mentioned by now 
with PFF up, pets have crap dmg and accuracy, so players ignore them even more than usual, and relish in seeing how many yellows they have to pop to get through PFF (and trust me, they DO get through it...a LOT)
a good game designer makes the game fun for all players, not fun for the blasters killing a MM in 2 hits. why can't mm's get some fun (and survivability) in pvp too?