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Ice Tanks are the exception to the rule. Look out for nerf threads concerning them fairly soon.
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Shush! 
For my take on Ice tanks, obviously one should check my guide.
I agree, our ability to regulate tempo and our general playstyle ends up making us fairly buffed up melee-trollers. IMO, I wish a lot of tanks were more like that in pvp...tanks would be good if secondary effects actually meant anything on the majority of our sets.
But the actual effectiveness of the Ice tank is reliant on it being a good fit into tankers current weaknesses. We run lots of toggles, so toggle dropping is no biggy. We're not afraid of being SLOWED when toggle dropped, which is a killer on a lot of builds and the reason for Ice/em blappers popularity. CE is a great anti-stalker tool. +perception is very big right now. Being able to actually get people to slow down a second when they hit CE is nice, with all the suppressionless hoo-ha in pvp atm. It's a very nice meshing of all the band-aids that were applied to Ice over the years, and it works well for pvp as things currently stand.
I hopped on a fire tank today...good god. How would you ever PvP with that thing? Might as well just drop your toggles and re-name the toon "Easy Rep 4 U".
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FWIW, reduced Toggle Drops and Gauntlet working in PvP should help tankers teaming ability. If those don't set them within the 'acceptable' range, then we'll try something else.
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Well it all depends on what "reduced Toggle Drops" actually means. Us not knowing the numbers far from produces warm fuzzies. My feeling is that if anything still has a 100% chance to drop or can drop more than one toggle, then you've not gone far enough.
Gauntlet will help, but only on a proactive level. And its still not clear if this will cover Taunt Auras like Invincibility and Chilling Embrace.
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Hell, I'll go one step further. I've always thought the idea of having defensive toggles was stupid. It's even worse now that our defenses aren't effectual the way they used to be. To have a 30% resistance power that I'm paying endurance (my fun meter) for, and then have it be possible for another hero or villain to come up and utterly disable it is just so far from our comic-book roots that I want to hurl something across the bay at Cryptic headquarters.
I will never be happy with toggles, much less toggle-dropping.
~Gabriel
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Gauntlet will help, but only on a proactive level. And its still not clear if this will cover Taunt Auras like Invincibility and Chilling Embrace.
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Maybe Invinc needs it, but to be quite honest, I haven't needed it the least bit in my Chilling Embrace... I mean it's an auto-hit slow and no one's ever AS'd me through it. Tack on the Artic mastery pool and Teleport foe, and no one will escape from your melee range if don't want them too... definitely not SuperLeapers.
..I *think* anyway... Maybe if they had SB on them they could...
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I kind of feel sorry for Masterminds when I do a fly-by KO Blow on them... Then I remember they're evil, evil villains! 
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Not evil. Misunderstood.
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Yeah, we're not evil. We just want to rule the world, that's all! *pets zombies*
Wow...Castle mentions EM in the Blaster forums and people get their panties in a bunch because they think he's talking about Energy Melee. Yup. That's the only set with the initials of EM. Good thing there isn't a Blaster secondary called Energy Manipulation. 
But still I fear and still I dare not laugh at the madman!
One man's "meh" is another man's "zomg". - Leatherneck
Procrastination meter coming soon.
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Actually Im pretty certain he's talking about Masterminds when he says "Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors and Dominators are NOT at the bottom of this list, by any stretch".
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Why would he say this if Masterminds are *already* confirmed as getting a boost?
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Because they dont have any data yet about how Masterminds do with the boost since it's not implemented yet?
If currently Masterminds are on the bottom of the list then it would make sense that they would receive a boost, which they are. Until that boost goes live they are still on the bottom of the list. I could be off base but that's how I read it.
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Yeah but Ice performs above the norm in PvP...
If you'd switch to Ice/EM in Warburg it would be even more powerful.
What's better than Defense in PvP? Resist. (+Acc)
Better than Resist? Healing. (Criticals/Unresisted)
Better than Healing? Slow.
You're a muscled up controller.
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That's, er, nice. I think there's a difference between having a rebuttal and just throwing up smoke to maintain an illusion.
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That's, er, not an arguement.
Ice is the best Tanker primary for PvP.
You can't judge Scrappers in PvP based on Regen only.
You can't judge Stalkers in PvP based on EM only.
You can't judge Tankers in PvP based on Ice/ only.
Your post is like saying "My FotM feels overpowered already so your AT has no problems AFAIC"
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Gauntlet will help, but only on a proactive level. And its still not clear if this will cover Taunt Auras like Invincibility and Chilling Embrace.
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Maybe Invinc needs it, but to be quite honest, I haven't needed it the least bit in my Chilling Embrace... I mean it's an auto-hit slow and no one's ever AS'd me through it. Tack on the Artic mastery pool and Teleport foe, and no one will escape from your melee range if don't want them too... definitely not SuperLeapers.
..I *think* anyway... Maybe if they had SB on them they could...
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Right but, if Blazing Aura, Icicles, and Mudpots benefit from the boost (guessing that the do), why shouldn't Chilling Embrace, Invincibility, and Energy Absorption?
Truth is, I'm guessing that auto-hit powers are being excempt from the PvP fix altogether - there's always a catch to such changes, and they just haven't bothered to give the complete story yet - which likely won't happen until patch notes.
Circ, I don't think it's ever been confirmed that ANY of the taunt auras are getting any love in the pvp section.
Though it WOULD make use of the taunt enhancements you can place in auras, and I think it's a good idea to have like a 15%, short duration taunt per "tick", I think it depends a lot on how they're going to work gauntlet in anyways. I do agree that, if they do, they need to be carefull with CE and Incvinc. I'd rather see the taunt in Ice go to Icicles and Energy Absorbtion...both of which you can already slot for taunt enhancement, so it will work out well. EA is auto-hit, but also pbAoE and fairly tough to aim on a mobile target.
I figure they're likely to do a % chance to taunt per attack, similar to scrapper crits or critical holds. If auras simply added a +crit element, or a +% to taunt to melee attacks, that would work well for me too. It can't be too high or taunt will be obselete and it will needlessly annoy other players, and it can't be too low or it won't be effective when it needs to be. Also, should AoE attacks have AoE pvp gauntlet, or a reduced chance to taunt?
I think our ranged attacks should have gauntlet as well, but at a diminished capacity. That was part of the problem with taunt anyways....when it was 100% to hit, and had a fully enhanced duration, it wasn't a particularly fun or interesting mechanic to play against or even WITH, imo.
Ice still ends up putting my six-slotted taunt on auto and spammin it in the zones. It is effective but decidedly un-fun for both sides. It also significantly reduces my DPS to be stopping to taunt every 3-6s (don't have planner in front of me, but I know with 3x recharges + hasten I can spam that beast), and that's not a good idea in pvp either.
In any case, I'd really like to see tanker taunt brought back up to 100% in pvp and the duration cut short, for pvp alone, to restore some of it's usefullness. I've had squishies taken right out from under me in some zones because, while I could SEE the stalker, there were no options available to me to break his hide or interupt his AS (if taunt misses and he's running a tier 9, for example). My tank might as well be a lamp-post in those cases. 100% also gives it a "niche" as a usefull power against un-hitable foes, like SR scrappers and other things a tank might not be able to taunt via gauntlet.
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Yeah but Ice performs above the norm in PvP...
If you'd switch to Ice/EM in Warburg it would be even more powerful.
What's better than Defense in PvP? Resist. (+Acc)
Better than Resist? Healing. (Criticals/Unresisted)
Better than Healing? Slow.
You're a muscled up controller.
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That's, er, nice. I think there's a difference between having a rebuttal and just throwing up smoke to maintain an illusion.
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That's, er, not an arguement.
Ice is the best Tanker primary for PvP.
You can't judge Scrappers in PvP based on Regen only.
You can't judge Stalkers in PvP based on EM only.
You can't judge Tankers in PvP based on Ice/ only.
Your post is like saying "My FotM feels overpowered already so your AT has no problems AFAIC"
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No, because I was talking about how much damage I was able to do more than how much I was able to dodge damage. To be perfectly honest, I took a hell of a lot of damage in those fights and really did well, defensively, when defenders on my team hit me with bubbles and fortitude. The things that helped my tanker do well were:
- heavy alpha strike
- status protection
- high hit points
All of those things are possible for any tanker. The invuln tanker running around was harder to take out than I was, because he could just hit unstoppable - and become literally unstoppable - for three minutes or so.
Anyway, I never said tankers don't have problems. I said they're not useless in PVP. I said my character felt overpowered in PVP. I responded to this claim:[ QUOTE ]
Tanks are AWFUL in pvp, though I really thought dominators were/are worse.
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Tankers are not awful in PVP. Tankers seem to do fairly well, and not just Ice. I don't think you can really begin to put Dominators and Tankers in the same boat as far as PVP performance goes.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Gauntlet will help, but only on a proactive level. And its still not clear if this will cover Taunt Auras like Invincibility and Chilling Embrace.
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Maybe Invinc needs it, but to be quite honest, I haven't needed it the least bit in my Chilling Embrace... I mean it's an auto-hit slow and no one's ever AS'd me through it. Tack on the Artic mastery pool and Teleport foe, and no one will escape from your melee range if don't want them too... definitely not SuperLeapers.
..I *think* anyway... Maybe if they had SB on them they could...
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Right but, if Blazing Aura, Icicles, and Mudpots benefit from the boost (guessing that the do), why shouldn't Chilling Embrace, Invincibility, and Energy Absorption?
Truth is, I'm guessing that auto-hit powers are being excempt from the PvP fix altogether - there's always a catch to such changes, and they just haven't bothered to give the complete story yet - which likely won't happen until patch notes.
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I noticed in PVP that Energy Absorption appeared to not be auto-hit. I used it once in the middle of a crowd of scrappers and got no endurance back.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
They were phased, you missed getting them within the pbAoE, or a bug.
Trust me...I've hit everything high-defense you CAN hit with EA. Pimped out SR scrappers. PFF lovin FF fenders. I've drained Rad users through two layers of to-hit debuffs (rad AND a dark on me). Btw, i would have lost that had they excerised common sense and not tried to stand so near me while I was debuffed...but stand in close range and I'll SS up to the lowest on the blue bar, leach em, and hit BU+ET+TF+(rest of chain) and try to take one down, even out the odds, etc.
I'm something of a pvp-**** with my Ice tank, since it's my favorite toon ever and pvp is my favorite way to play. So, yeah, trust me, it's auto-hit. As it's primary function is +defense, it's similar to invinc, in that you don't want a solid buff for your toon to be dependant on hittin vs AVs, high defense players, bosses, etc. Same basic concept with CE being auto-hit, and with no "tick"...you don't want any of yuur primary damage mitigation to be based to much on "hitting" your opponent to save your bacon.
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Finally, domination removed from PVP, cause a kick to the groin will make them (doms) quit whining.
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I see you around the Dom boards, yet you don't seem to know much about Doms do you? lol. We won't stop whining, we'll whine harder (or quit). Why the hell would we STOP whining when the one cool thing about teaming in PvP is the fact that when all goes well, we DO get Domination off.
Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?
Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...
So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!
Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.
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They were phased, you missed getting them within the pbAoE, or a bug.
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They weren't phased. They were all in melee range. A bug is remotely possible, but... on multiple occasions I did not hit every target within range.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?
Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...
So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!
Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.
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Oh, please. Tankers do 80% blaster damage and have many times more durability. What tankers can't really do is fulfill their intended role in PVP. Taunt's nerfed against other players and punchvoke doesn't work at all.
I did not "turn blind." All I had to do was PVP with a tanker and against tankers.
But, wow, "a tank is not really that big of a threat?" "Tanks just hang around?" I have to ask - have you played a tanker in PVP?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
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Oh, please. Tankers do 80% blaster damage and have many times more durability.
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ROFL
sorry but I must concure with firebane
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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?
Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...
So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!
Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.
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Oh, please. Tankers do 80% blaster damage and have many times more durability. What tankers can't really do is fulfill their intended role in PVP. Taunt's nerfed against other players and punchvoke doesn't work at all.
I did not "turn blind." All I had to do was PVP with a tanker and against tankers.
But, wow, "a tank is not really that big of a threat?" "Tanks just hang around?" I have to ask - have you played a tanker in PVP?
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While I agree with your general point that tankers manage quite well in PvP as uber-scrappers, their damage isn't 80% of a blaster's. Their AT scalar is, but their actual damage dealt isn't anywhere close. Don't give people the wrong impression.
~Gabriel
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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?
Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...
So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!
Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.
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Say that after a tank comes and slams his energy transfering palm into your eye and follows it up with a double fisted total focus off the top rope.
Freedom
Catastr0phic - 50 Invuln/Energy Tank
Dairou - 50 Spines/Regen Scrapper
Velshon - 50 Fire/Kinetics Controller
Nakk - 50 Ice/Stone Tank
Velshanta - 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
and like a million non-50 alts
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In any case, I'd really like to see tanker taunt brought back up to 100% in pvp and the duration cut short, for pvp alone, to restore some of it's usefullness.
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I like this idea. Changes to taunt make it akin to a "fear power" - making taunt 100%, shorter duration and the ability for ppl to run away or break LOS to reduce its effect even further, seems fair to me and fun.
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They weren't phased. They were all in melee range. A bug is remotely possible, but... on multiple occasions I did not hit every target within range.
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Personally I'd say its a bug or observer error Kali. If Energy Absorption isn't auto-hit in PvP then despite their excellent performance in PvP, Ice Tankers would ultimately be broken in PvP, as EA, despite how we currently tend to use it since its a defensive power, and is a significant portion of the devs' "rigid box".
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While I agree with your general point that tankers manage quite well in PvP as uber-scrappers, their damage isn't 80% of a blaster's. Their AT scalar is, but their actual damage dealt isn't anywhere close. Don't give people the wrong impression.
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How you can post that, and at the same time not see the problem with that statement I'm not sure.
If Tankers operate as anything other than Tankers at any point in the game then at that point in the game they're broken, despite if they're functional.
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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?
Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...
So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!
Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, please. Tankers do 80% blaster damage and have many times more durability. What tankers can't really do is fulfill their intended role in PVP. Taunt's nerfed against other players and punchvoke doesn't work at all.
I did not "turn blind." All I had to do was PVP with a tanker and against tankers.
But, wow, "a tank is not really that big of a threat?" "Tanks just hang around?" I have to ask - have you played a tanker in PVP?
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That is just BS Kali, tankers do not have 30% unresisted damage so there is no way they do 80% of blaster damage. Take your stupid illusions elsewhere.
I have played a tanker and have played against a tanker and that's why I say tankers just hang around. When you say you attacked a tank I have to ask why? Did the tank pose a threath to you or your team?
Replace tanks with any other AT in a PvP team and you perform much better, that's a fact you cannot argue about.
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Yeah but Ice performs above the norm in PvP...
If you'd switch to Ice/EM in Warburg it would be even more powerful.
What's better than Defense in PvP? Resist. (+Acc)
Better than Resist? Healing. (Criticals/Unresisted)
Better than Healing? Slow.
You're a muscled up controller.
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That's, er, nice. I think there's a difference between having a rebuttal and just throwing up smoke to maintain an illusion.
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You underestimate the sheer ridiculousness of "The Ice Tank" in PvP.