I've come to believe that the Devs saying they aren't balancing for one vs one is just so they don't have to hear more complaining than they already do. I think it is their goal to make every encounter as fair or as close to fair as possible. Tanks were the ultimate PvE AT and bringing them in line for a PvP world seemed to be very difficult.
"Tanking" does not fit the current PvP open zone system. It can work in base raids and arena matches though. I think i7 will help tankers in PvP. Less toggle dropping and a warning for click powers sounds promising to me, but I think we'll still have to approach it as scrapping.
Hopefully they can get our inherent to work in PvP, I think that will bring back what some of us miss about being a tanker. I look forward to respecing...again *sigh* and giving it another go.
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Hopefully they can get our inherent to work in PvP, I think that will bring back what some of us miss about being a tanker. I look forward to respecing...again *sigh* and giving it another go.
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_Castle_ has mentioned that Gauntlet will be coming to PvP; we just don't know exactly how it's going to work if any different to PvEGauntlet.
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Hopefully they can get our inherent to work in PvP, I think that will bring back what some of us miss about being a tanker. I look forward to respecing...again *sigh* and giving it another go.
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_Castle_ has mentioned that Gauntlet will be coming to PvP; we just don't know exactly how it's going to work if any different to PvEGauntlet.
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I do remember seeing that somewhere. I assumed it would be some type of radius aura around the tank, but yeah I don't exactly understand how it will work. Is it in i7 though?
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Replace tanks with any other AT in a PvP team and you perform much better, that's a fact you cannot argue about.
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Oooh, ooh, I can. Though not the norm, a purpose build pvp team that's using tanks, sonic or ff users, and empaths to divide and conquer will end up tearing it up in arena matches.
I picture something like a mind/son (tk, cage, res debuffs), 2x Ice/em tanks, and an illus/empath with phase.
Six-slotted taunt + auto + follow and hitting the spacebar every once in awhile may be an annoying thing to play with and against, but it works. It's just not a fun game dynamic.
Like Castle said...no one is entirely useless in pvp. Tanks just don't get chosen right now because they're too vulnerable, put out too little damage, and don't do anything like their jobs in pve in pvp. This does not mean we're entirely worthless, it just means we're "situational".
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...when the Arena and PvP first came out that Tanks were king of the mountain.
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Tanks, not so much. Trollers everyone feared.
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...when the Arena and PvP first came out that Tanks were king of the mountain.
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Tanks, not so much. Trollers everyone feared.
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No, tanks were pretty well feared. Not all of them, just the /EM and /Super-Strength ones. Just like now.
Heh.
~Gabriel
Even my Axer was great when the Arena first opened up. 
The only controller that was ever a big problem for me back then was an Illusion. Spammed Fears.
Ill/Rad gave me fits, but I was usually able to fight to a draw
...now 
to much paper for my rock out there
Notice how all the top ATs in PvP are the ones with unresistable damage?
Probably goes by order of unresistable damage output too...
Stalkers, Scrappers, Blasters
We're a high-hp AT. THAT is our counter to unresistable damage.
IMO, only time any of those are a problem are when shields are dropped...and when your resistance is down to 0 anyway, the unresistable portion is no longer a concern of yours anyways.
Even my gimped out, i3, pre-ed, pre-burn nerd fire tank can run around SC and escape stalkers. AS is still like 1/2=2/3 hp, heal flames, hop, hop, hop away!.
Second to toggle drops, our lowered mez resistance is a real problem in pvp. Or, more accurately, THIS is the problem:
Our mez shields seem to be balanced around the idea that a single controller, when well built, should be able to reliably overstack them given enough time, around lvl 30+ or so. However, once you hit hammis, and everyone is packing a few acc/mez in every hold, you get reliably overstacked that much faster...and then it's 3x damage, debuffs, and being vulnerable to everyone elses attacks time.
I've often said this about detoggling...I think they should just make the Mez shields impossible to detoggle. Even when mezzed, I either want the toggle up, OR build in an option like hibernate, where, as soon as the power ends you are able to choose one power/effect that will take place before anything else can affect you again.
IE, if I'm held, and not knowing when that hold will end, I'd like to be able to re-set my mez shield to go back up the second I'm un-held again. Not knowing is just making you sit there staring at that little red word, hoping to get your shield up before your one hold ends and someone elses mez attack gets you while your pants are down.
IMO, hammis and how they've been altered have simply brought chain-mezzing back into the game again. No other AT has as much to gain as controllers do from hammi-ing out, and certainly not any melee toon out there.
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Notice how all the top ATs in PvP are the ones with unresistable damage?
Probably goes by order of unresistable damage output too...
Stalkers, Scrappers, Blasters
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LOL Prem, my immediate thought when I read this was to equate it to poor Beo's universally resisted damage (s/l) with the 50 PvP zone. 
When can I place an order for an "Energy" axe?
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Notice how all the top ATs in PvP are the ones with unresistable damage?
Probably goes by order of unresistable damage output too...
Stalkers, Scrappers, Blasters
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LOL Prem, my immediate thought when I read this was to equate it to poor Beo's universally resisted damage (s/l) with the 50 PvP zone.
When can I place an order for an "Energy" axe?
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I didn't know others besides blaster have unresistable damage o.O
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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?
Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...
So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!
Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.
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Say that after a tank comes and slams his energy transfering palm into your eye and follows it up with a double fisted total focus off the top rope.
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And someone immediately whips out the one attack set that is good in PvP. Congratulations for rolling a FoTM. Yes, a EM does quite alright in Warburg. Go try that combination in Sirens and see how you do.
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Rolled my EM tank after the first halloween event, well before the phrase 'fotm' was used to describe EM, but nice try.
And my tank does good in sirens, maybe yours doesnt. Theres more to a tank than just high HP, maybe learn how to play one?
Freedom
Catastr0phic - 50 Invuln/Energy Tank
Dairou - 50 Spines/Regen Scrapper
Velshon - 50 Fire/Kinetics Controller
Nakk - 50 Ice/Stone Tank
Velshanta - 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
and like a million non-50 alts
Haha, I'm sure you could teach me.
And the point that you so casually evaded was that of all the Tanker secondaries EM is by far the best equipped to deal with the high level PvP zones. So throwing your EM out as the proverbial exception to the rule doesn't really help or change things. Regardless of when you rolled your tank, you are still a FoTM. Flavor of the last year actually. 
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I didn't know others besides blaster have unresistable damage o.O
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He is referring to Crits and AS. Possibly also containment damage, but I can't recall atm. I know a recent thread on the Controllor forums shows that some of the 50s have proven through testing that EPPs are ignoring enemy resistance in PvE. Not positive if that carries over to PvP?
assassin strikes are unres'd (and detoggle)
crits from srappers are unres'd
Mister Weekly's BOOM box - Lvl 50 ar/FIRE/fire/
Hellion Girlfriend - EM/Stone brute
I have a few 50's...
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Does it strike anyone particularly odd that when the Arena and PvP first came out that Tanks were king of the mountain. Too powerful and relatively unstoppable. A few minor "tweaks" later here we stand. Castle poking fun at our bottom dwelling state. From one extreme to the other.
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Where did I poke fun at Tankers? Where did I state tankers were 'bottom' of the list. I suspect there is a bit of transference going on in your comments.
FWIW, reduced Toggle Drops and Gauntlet working in PvP should help tankers teaming ability. If those don't set them within the 'acceptable' range, then we'll try something else.
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what in another 5 months?
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Yep. See you then
Don't worry, I'll still be here
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assassin strikes are unres'd (and detoggle)
crits from srappers are unres'd
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All criticals... that also includes Stalker crits (even the non AS) and the Scourge from corruptors too I think.
I only want to bring up this point. The base damage for the highest power for EM is Total Focus at 9.8889 not avalible till lvl 38. Superstrength has Knockout Blow with a base damage of 9.8889 as well. This is avalible at lvl 20. Now I suppose an issue can be made about different types of damage for those 2 powers (Total Focus has 2.7778 Damage in Smashing, and 7.1111 in Energy Damage. Knockout Blow has all it's damage in smashing.) The choice at least for me is simple, more power at 20. Instead of waiting for the same base at 38. JMO
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I only want to bring up this point. The base damage for the highest power for EM is Total Focus at 9.8889 not avalible till lvl 38. Superstrength has Knockout Blow with a base damage of 9.8889 as well. This is avalible at lvl 20. Now I suppose an issue can be made about different types of damage for those 2 powers (Total Focus has 2.7778 Damage in Smashing, and 7.1111 in Energy Damage. Knockout Blow has all it's damage in smashing.) The choice at least for me is simple, more power at 20. Instead of waiting for the same base at 38. JMO
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Not quite. Energy Transfer is more damaging than both and is available at lvl 35.
Plus you have the Build Up vs Rage issue to consider. Build Up is more dmg and more to-hit bonus, but over a much shorter period of time.
So technically if you're only looking at one-time burst damage, Energy Melee has two attacks that are more powerful than anything in Superstrength. And then on top of that you have damage type to consider (energy vs smashing).
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While I agree with your general point that tankers manage quite well in PvP as uber-scrappers, their damage isn't 80% of a blaster's. Their AT scalar is, but their actual damage dealt isn't anywhere close. Don't give people the wrong impression.
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How you can post that, and at the same time not see the problem with that statement I'm not sure.
If Tankers operate as anything other than Tankers at any point in the game then at that point in the game they're broken, despite if they're functional.
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It's possible to see that tankers can function in PVP and are not impotent while also seeing that tankers are unable to fill their intended role in PVP.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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That is just BS Kali, tankers do not have 30% unresisted damage so there is no way they do 80% of blaster damage. Take your stupid illusions elsewhere.
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Yeah, the fact that every blaster and non-storm defender or controller I targeted was either defeated within a few shots or running away after popping inspirations to survive was completely an illusion.
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I have played a tanker and have played against a tanker and that's why I say tankers just hang around. When you say you attacked a tank I have to ask why? Did the tank pose a threath to you or your team?
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The tanker was one of the targets that wouldn't fold like a house of cards when I attacked him. Scrappers, too. I didn't bother with most of the scrappers because they'd just hit elude when they saw me coming, and my six-slotted buildup + three to-hit SOs in each attack wasn't enough to overcome that.
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Replace tanks with any other AT in a PvP team and you perform much better, that's a fact you cannot argue about.
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Depends:
If you mean the other ATs can fulfill their intended roles better than a tanker can fulfill its intended role in PVP, I'll agree. If you mean tankers are impotent and worthless in PVP, I'm going to have to say that you're the one carrying illusions.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?
Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...
So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!
Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.
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Say that after a tank comes and slams his energy transfering palm into your eye and follows it up with a double fisted total focus off the top rope.
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And someone immediately whips out the one attack set that is good in PvP. Congratulations for rolling a FoTM. Yes, a EM does quite alright in Warburg. Go try that combination in Sirens and see how you do.
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Stone Melee does pretty well, too.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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We're a high-hp AT. THAT is our counter to unresistable damage.
IMO, only time any of those are a problem are when shields are dropped...and when your resistance is down to 0 anyway, the unresistable portion is no longer a concern of yours anyways.
Even my gimped out, i3, pre-ed, pre-burn nerd fire tank can run around SC and escape stalkers. AS is still like 1/2=2/3 hp, heal flames, hop, hop, hop away!.
Second to toggle drops, our lowered mez resistance is a real problem in pvp. Or, more accurately, THIS is the problem:
Our mez shields seem to be balanced around the idea that a single controller, when well built, should be able to reliably overstack them given enough time, around lvl 30+ or so. However, once you hit hammis, and everyone is packing a few acc/mez in every hold, you get reliably overstacked that much faster...and then it's 3x damage, debuffs, and being vulnerable to everyone elses attacks time.
I've often said this about detoggling...I think they should just make the Mez shields impossible to detoggle. Even when mezzed, I either want the toggle up, OR build in an option like hibernate, where, as soon as the power ends you are able to choose one power/effect that will take place before anything else can affect you again.
IE, if I'm held, and not knowing when that hold will end, I'd like to be able to re-set my mez shield to go back up the second I'm un-held again. Not knowing is just making you sit there staring at that little red word, hoping to get your shield up before your one hold ends and someone elses mez attack gets you while your pants are down.
IMO, hammis and how they've been altered have simply brought chain-mezzing back into the game again. No other AT has as much to gain as controllers do from hammi-ing out, and certainly not any melee toon out there.
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Thanks you for describing why Controllers no longer need Super-Containment in PvP. 2x the damage? Maybe. 3x? No [censored] way.
Controllers can hold another player easily enough with the reductions in mezz protection, they don't need to debuff them and be able to 4-shot them too.
The very fact that Controllers DO get this ridiculous PvP buff is proof enough that PvP is not being balanced for teams (as the Devs would like us to believe). If that mantra were true, then Controllers wouldn't need it at all.
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...when the Arena and PvP first came out that Tanks were king of the mountain.
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Tanks, not so much. Trollers everyone feared.
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No, tanks were pretty well feared. Not all of them, just the /EM and /Super-Strength ones. Just like now.
Heh.
~Gabriel
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Funny thing is, Ice was the least favored Tank primary for PvP until Issue 5 "The Patch of Doom."
9 out of 10 tanks were Invul/* prior to that. Hell, even after Issue 5, Ice was still highly undervalued in PvP, until people wised up and saw the three or four of us that actually PvPed were kicking everyone's [censored]..
My, how times have changed... and the only real differences (buffs) to Ice have been the addition of -dmg to CE, working slow resistance (was bugged for a looong time) and enhanceable end reduction in EA. Oh, and better Hibernate animation.
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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.
Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?
Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...
So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!
Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.
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Say that after a tank comes and slams his energy transfering palm into your eye and follows it up with a double fisted total focus off the top rope.
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And someone immediately whips out the one attack set that is good in PvP. Congratulations for rolling a FoTM. Yes, a EM does quite alright in Warburg. Go try that combination in Sirens and see how you do.