I've been hearing this more and more. Yes, Ice tanks are tough to bring down, but they get downright creamed when facing smart opposition.
What exactly is it that makes Ice "broken?" I have my own theories on why some feel this way, but most of those always seem to use the "Energy Melee" factor, which, last time I checked, is not part of the Ice Primary.
So, is "Ice" broken or is EM broken? Is it the combo? What exactly is it it about the combo that makes it broken?
Would nerfing one set or the other be fair to those that don't have both?
I'm not being clueless here. I have my opinions on the subject. Just trying to figure out why others feel that way.
For the record, no I don't feel it's broken and yes, I do have one.
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I've been hearing this more and more. Yes, Ice tanks are tough to bring down, but they get downright creamed when facing smart opposition.
What exactly is it that makes Ice "broken?" I have my own theories on why some feel this way, but most of those always seem to use the "Energy Melee" factor, which, last time I checked, is not part of the Ice Primary.
So, is "Ice" broken or is EM broken? Is it the combo? What exactly is it it about the combo that makes it broken?
Would nerfing one set or the other be fair to those that don't have both?
I'm not being clueless here. I have my opinions on the subject. Just trying to figure out why others feel that way.
For the record, no I don't feel it's broken and yes, I do have one.
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If you don't utterly cream the opposition with your ice/em then you don't know how to use it right. The combination is too severe. You can barely slow Ice armor and debuffs mean very little to it. So, Kinetic and Radiation controllers, and their defender brotherin, mean very little to this build. What doesn't the combo do? It stuns, it hurts, it slows, it has a 'oh crap I need to make myself invincible to recover health' mode. It drops toggles... etc etc etc.
We aren't talking Stone/SS synergy. Nor are we talking invuln/Fire synergy... we are talking ICE/EM one of the most deadly combos in the arena. The only true place to get rung PVP.
Zone PvP who cares what anyone has... You are bound to face either min/maxers with FotM gank builds or nublets.
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I only want to bring up this point. The base damage for the highest power for EM is Total Focus at 9.8889 not avalible till lvl 38. Superstrength has Knockout Blow with a base damage of 9.8889 as well. This is avalible at lvl 20. Now I suppose an issue can be made about different types of damage for those 2 powers (Total Focus has 2.7778 Damage in Smashing, and 7.1111 in Energy Damage. Knockout Blow has all it's damage in smashing.) The choice at least for me is simple, more power at 20. Instead of waiting for the same base at 38. JMO
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Not quite. Energy Transfer is more damaging than both and is available at lvl 35.
Plus you have the Build Up vs Rage issue to consider. Build Up is more dmg and more to-hit bonus, but over a much shorter period of time.
So technically if you're only looking at one-time burst damage, Energy Melee has two attacks that are more powerful than anything in Superstrength. And then on top of that you have damage type to consider (energy vs smashing).
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Damn How did I miss Energy Transfer that was a huge oversite. Time to reroll my Tanker. LOL
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If you don't utterly cream the opposition with your ice/em then you don't know how to use it right.
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Ice has it's weaknesses. Don't call me a n00b if no one on your server has figured them out yet.
If you're referring to one on one matches, remember: "PvP isn't balanced for 1v1."
Again, would nerfing one set or the other be fair to those that don't have both? Something tells me Ice/Ice Tanks don't exactly make you cringe in fear.
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we are talking ICE/EM one of the most deadly combos in the arena. The only true place to get rung PVP.
Zone PvP who cares what anyone has... You are bound to face either min/maxers with FotM gank builds or nublets.
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There's more to PvP than SHW Arena matches. You can't isolate one aspect and say XXX is overpowered and broken. Doesn't work that way.
Ice has weaknesses, it's just the best adapted to the broken pvp enviroment we play in. A tanks main fears are: toggle-dropping, mez overstacking + containment, and unresisted damage.
You run no fewer than 4 toggles. Ice-Cubed runs about 5-6 atm. This makes toggle-dropping much less of a threat, if you're paying attention. Additionally, once ppl learn it's a lot harder to knock off your mez toggle, they tend to focus on other tactics.
The medicine pool makes a nice addition. When you're basicly taking damage straight to your HP, a little self heal to compliment your +HP is good stuff, keeps you in the fight longer and out of hibernate.
Hibernate is a catch-all cure to unresisted damage, uber-strong containment, "omg my toggles were dropped and they've been beating my a**!", and quite a few more cases other tanks have trouble with. Is it overpowered? No, but it's right up there with Granite, Unstoppable, Overload, Elude, and MoG in a lot of cases. There's also a psychological element similar to when a scrapper hits IH...you almost thought you had him, then he heals it all back up and you gotta start over.
So Ice Armor acts as a pretty nice band-aid over the various gimps tanks have been saddled with. It's main weaknesses can be found in my sig, but primarily it's also a clicky build, which means you end up being saddled with 3 power pools right off the bat. You need hasten, the medicine pool, and health/stamina. This makes it tough to get a vert power, and it's hard to fit in leadership if you wanted.
However, with toggle-dropping being scaled back, other sets will get better. Invulns biggest beef was always that you're either toggle-dropped or in Unstoppable, and Unstoppable is a death-sentence after 3 minutes. Stone tanks have been trundling through all the nerfs for awhile, with various degrees of usefullness, and there's really no change on their front. Fire tanks, who usually only run 3-4 toggles, are getting a bit of love, but not enough.
So I predict Invuln will rejoin Ice at the top of the pvp order, and probably be preffered for many jobs, while Stone will play second fiddle and Fire will still suck in both pve and pvp.
~DJ
PS- He's right, EM gains no special synergies from Ice armor, so when complaining about Ice/em you're really compaining about Ice.
Hoo/Ninja Monkey, you just made a thread saying all tankers suck, then when I asked you for a match you said "oh, except for Ice/em tanks", and now you want us nerfed too. Apparently all tanks should suck so your controllers are safe and happy atop the pvp mountain?
Please take that garbage somewhere else.
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Replace tanks with any other AT in a PvP team and you perform much better, that's a fact you cannot argue about.
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Depends:
If you mean the other ATs can fulfill their intended roles better than a tanker can fulfill its intended role in PVP, I'll agree. If you mean tankers are impotent and worthless in PVP, I'm going to have to say that you're the one carrying illusions.
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ROFL
I think he means take any team with a Tanker in a PvP situation.
Remove the tanker and replace him with a Scrapper, Blaster, Controller or Defender and your team will perform much better.
Didn't think the wording was that confusing.
The real reason is that the Tanker performs like a less efficient Scrapper without any real additional contribution in terms of team effects.
Plus when it comes to resisting an onslaught... he can take the alpha better than a scrapper if he's not entirely ignored... and only if there aren't a few stalkers in there (who's AS goes through unmitigated)... which there always are.
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Ice/EM shoud be nerfed with the quickness. It is one of the many broken builds in PvP and doesn't paint the proper picture of how bad tanks are outclassed in PvP.
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I don't have an Ice/EM tanker. I do have an Ice/Stone tanker.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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ROFL
I think he means take any team with a Tanker in a PvP situation.
Remove the tanker and replace him with a Scrapper, Blaster, Controller or Defender and your team will perform much better.
Didn't think the wording was that confusing.
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I dunno. Tankers have pretty good burst damage - Stone, SS, and EM at any rate.
Even so, this doesn't make tankers gimped in PVP, just flawed. Does anyone remember the initial post I disagreed with, or are you all caught up in the fallacious claim that I'm saying tankers are uber?
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The real reason is that the Tanker performs like a less efficient Scrapper without any real additional contribution in terms of team effects.
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Which can still be fairly potent in PVP. Scrappers are often described as gods in PVP (IMO, they weren't all that against my tanker, but hey), so a watered-down god is what, exactly?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
If Scrappers are Gods and what the heck are Stalkers?
I'm not playing some drama here trying to pretend Tankers are awful such as the post you're referring to.. however even considering the range of performances from all sets... Tankers are not preferable to anything else in PvP
I seem to observe a general satisfaction with Tankers being sub par. ... as if people somehow accepted this AT not meant to compete as well as others. The only ATs you can't judge 1vs1 are the support ATs... but if Tankers are to have no team effect they should be fixed to compete 1vs1 with scrappers... same should be done for Brutes and Stalkers (a nerf in that later case)
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If Scrappers are Gods and what the heck are Stalkers?
I'm not playing some drama here trying to pretend Tankers are awful such as the post you're referring to.. however even considering the range of performances from all sets... Tankers are not preferable to anything else in PvP
I seem to observe a general satisfaction with Tankers being sub par. ... as if people somehow accepted this AT not meant to compete as well as others. The only ATs you can't judge 1vs1 are the support ATs... but if Tankers are to have no team effect they should be fixed to compete 1vs1 with scrappers... same should be done for Brutes and Stalkers (a nerf in that later case)
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I'll take any FotM stalker with my FotM spine/regen in Recluse's Victory any day. It's going to be no contest. Yeah I know they're are pissed about FA and it's not even out yet, but anyway, there you have it. It's not like they haven't earned some payback.
As for tankers being the least preferred? Well depends on you rmindset. I'm planning to respec my tanker for team vs team PvP and his main role will be a taunting/punchvoking meatshield with some damage support. I'll suck 1 vs 1 but in a team vs team I'm going to be a menace.
Ice/EM shoud be nerfed with the quickness. It is one of the many broken builds in PvP and doesn't paint the proper picture of how bad tanks are outclassed in PvP.