//As it stands now, A brute without his defensive toggles, is just a corruptor with 500 more hitpoints, as most brutes do not take passive resists, because the cost effectiveness of them are in the bottom of the barrel. Is this the blasters fault? Of course not. Is it the systems fault? You're darned right it is.
A) Brute's toggles are on for at the very least the first attack, and will mitigate that damage.
B) A brute choosing to skip his passives and then complaining because he doesn't have any protection when toggles aren't running impresses me not at all; you cannot expect the passives to be in the same league as toggles, because they are auto and have no cost. Barking up the wrong tree here, I play tanker extensively and I'm familiar with people looking for powers to skip in their defense set.
C) The brute, again, does not have to stand there like a bozo and do nothing but eat damage while his toggles are down; he can counter-attack, or retreat and retoggle.
D) "just 500 more hitpoints" is a GIGANTIC advantage in pvp. Don't poo-poo this and write it off like it's nothing.
//A tactical withdrawl as you might be alluding to, is nigh unaccomplishable without solid communication. The only groups that can pull that off in MMOs, are SGs with voice comms.
Playing in 3rd person and observing the fight are all it takes. If you see Jimmy the Blaster running/jumping at you and you're a corruptor, you probably don't want to stand there and eat his alpha.
//And I was in the military, so for me the difference is key. Perhaps why I said "Running" isn't a defense. I could have added that a tactical withdrawl is fine, but, that still doesn't ignore the fact that since the field is pretty level when it comes to mobility between villains and heroes, this is much harder to pull off because the other side simply has to give chase. Kinetics for the win I suppose.
Completely untrue, from what you're complaining about. If you get first attack, then you have a very high probability of killing the blaster immediately and ending the engagement, due to his low health and poor defense. Your travel is suppressed, and his is not - but he is not designed to live through alphas.
If the blaster gets first attack, he must aim/buildup - which you can observe - and then land multiple melee moves on you to detoggle you and put you on the ground. If you observe his approach and see aim/buildup being run, you can (as I said exactly in the same way earlier) move out of his melee range and wait out aim/buildup, and then counter-attack during his aim/buildup recharge time. This time HE is suppressed and YOU are not, and you have much more powerful tools for surviving. This is not in any way an uncontrolled flight of panic, it's simply moving out of his melee range (possibly sticking a web grenade on him as you move away). He isn't going to kill you with his ordinary ranged, and you can interrupt his snipe, recognizable animation.
//PS - quotes are your friends.
Better things to do than type {quote}{/quote} 20 times in a post. If it's especially bothersome to you please feel free to not read me.
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Completely untrue, from what you're complaining about.
[/ QUOTE ]
And after this comment we'll part ways.
Nothing, slightly, remotely, or even vaguely in my posts, could be construed as whining or complaining about anything. Its hard to complain about something when all you really do is ask questions, which is my prefered method to not be "Mistaken" for a complainer. The fact that you somehow felt the need to attribute some emotional attachment to anything I was posting precludeas any further logical discourse; that crashing noise you observed was objectivity hitting the street after you decided to throw it out the window.
I think I'll take you up on your offer.
Good day.
//So basically we'vee established, for everyone to plainly see, that the only real difference between Stalkers, whom many blasters - including the ever so vocal Circuit-Boy - claim as being "unfairly over-powered" is that unlike Blasters, Stalkers have to be "Hidden" to be overpowered, whereas Blasters, don't have to even do that much. They fully and unabashedly flex their "over-poweredness" for all to see, and don't even need a situational circumstance like being hidden and undetected in order to pull it off.
You make it sound like the nearly 100% reliable ability to choose when to fight is a punishment, instead of the tremendous advantage it is. People have to specifically build their characters vs. stalkers to even ENGAGE THEM AT ALL. Also writing off the very large advantage in having innate status resist and depending on build, large uninterruptible selfheal/dull pain or high defense. What a poor, gimped class!
//Nothing, slightly, remotely, or even vaguely in my posts, could be construed as whining or complaining about anything.
You're too thin skinned. Never said "whining" and saying you're complaining about something is hardly an insult. Either you like it, you feel neutral about it, or you don't like it (re: toggle dropping on blaster moves). I don't like stacking Vengeance, and I complain about it, does that mean I'm a whining gimp? Lighten up.
[ QUOTE ]
So basically we'vee established, for everyone to plainly see, that the only real difference between Stalkers, whom many blasters - including the ever so vocal Circuit-Boy - claim as being "unfairly over-powered" is that unlike Blasters, Stalkers have to be "Hidden" to be overpowered, whereas Blasters, don't have to even do that much. They fully and unabashedly flex their "over-poweredness" for all to see, and don't even need a situational circumstance like being hidden and undetected in order to pull it off
[/ QUOTE ]
I completely missed where anything remotely resembling this nonsense was discussed. Perhaps you should re-evaluate this paragraph?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
//As it stands now, A brute without his defensive toggles, is just a corruptor with 500 more hitpoints, as most brutes do not take passive resists, because the cost effectiveness of them are in the bottom of the barrel. Is this the blasters fault? Of course not. Is it the systems fault? You're darned right it is.
A) Brute's toggles are on for at the very least the first attack, and will mitigate that damage.
B) A brute choosing to skip his passives and then complaining because he doesn't have any protection when toggles aren't running impresses me not at all; you cannot expect the passives to be in the same league as toggles, because they are auto and have no cost. Barking up the wrong tree here, I play tanker extensively and I'm familiar with people looking for powers to skip in their defense set.
C) The brute, again, does not have to stand there like a bozo and do nothing but eat damage while his toggles are down; he can counter-attack, or retreat and retoggle.
D) "just 500 more hitpoints" is a GIGANTIC advantage in pvp. Don't poo-poo this and write it off like it's nothing.
//A tactical withdrawl as you might be alluding to, is nigh unaccomplishable without solid communication. The only groups that can pull that off in MMOs, are SGs with voice comms.
Playing in 3rd person and observing the fight are all it takes. If you see Jimmy the Blaster running/jumping at you and you're a corruptor, you probably don't want to stand there and eat his alpha.
//And I was in the military, so for me the difference is key. Perhaps why I said "Running" isn't a defense. I could have added that a tactical withdrawl is fine, but, that still doesn't ignore the fact that since the field is pretty level when it comes to mobility between villains and heroes, this is much harder to pull off because the other side simply has to give chase. Kinetics for the win I suppose.
Completely untrue, from what you're complaining about. If you get first attack, then you have a very high probability of killing the blaster immediately and ending the engagement, due to his low health and poor defense. Your travel is suppressed, and his is not - but he is not designed to live through alphas.
If the blaster gets first attack, he must aim/buildup - which you can observe - and then land multiple melee moves on you to detoggle you and put you on the ground. If you observe his approach and see aim/buildup being run, you can (as I said exactly in the same way earlier) move out of his melee range and wait out aim/buildup, and then counter-attack during his aim/buildup recharge time. This time HE is suppressed and YOU are not, and you have much more powerful tools for surviving. This is not in any way an uncontrolled flight of panic, it's simply moving out of his melee range (possibly sticking a web grenade on him as you move away). He isn't going to kill you with his ordinary ranged, and you can interrupt his snipe, recognizable animation.
//PS - quotes are your friends.
Better things to do than type {quote}{/quote} 20 times in a post. If it's especially bothersome to you please feel free to not read me.
[/ QUOTE ]
IT'S THE MELLE AT'S THAT IS ALWAYS NERF HERDING AND GETTING THIER WAY AT THE EXPENSE OF BLASTERS.
capslock is cruise control for lose 
OMG....quote-fests! Longest posts ever!
Whew..I can't even make myself read all that. Shorten it up when possible, guys, sheesh.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CoH and CoV have two different, unequal paradigms, that meet in an unbalanced way in open PvP.
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That sound that everyone just heard, was Logarithm hitting the nail right on the head with a 50 pound sledgehammer of truth.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Thing is, the Devs built CoV with a lot more personal damage for every AT. In short, they realized, over the process of doing CoH, that it wasn't much fun to be the "debuff/buff guy who really sucks outside a team" or "the control guy who really sucks outside a team", etc, etc. If there's not a team to be had, or the team is not working that well, etc, it's easier to water-down the specific roles CoH ATs were built around and spread the love.
There is no "aggro" AT. There is no "healer/support" AT. Damage is the general priority and everything else is usually in a secondary.
All the CoV ATs can solo at almost any level. It's fun and entertaining.
In CoH, blasters and scrappers can solo. Controllers can late-game. Defenders and tanks, it's just painfull, man, especially now, for tanks.
//Whew..I can't even make myself read all that. Shorten it up when possible, guys, sheesh.
When I do that I get yelled at. 
Yeah, I have a problem with forum brevity too. 
Not just you though, like the last 3 pages are full of some of the longest, quote-iest posts I've ever seen.
[ QUOTE ]
OMG....quote-fests! Longest posts ever!
Whew..I can't even make myself read all that. Shorten it up when possible, guys, sheesh.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CoH and CoV have two different, unequal paradigms, that meet in an unbalanced way in open PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
That sound that everyone just heard, was Logarithm hitting the nail right on the head with a 50 pound sledgehammer of truth.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Thing is, the Devs built CoV with a lot more personal damage for every AT. In short, they realized, over the process of doing CoH, that it wasn't much fun to be the "debuff/buff guy who really sucks outside a team" or "the control guy who really sucks outside a team", etc, etc. If there's not a team to be had, or the team is not working that well, etc, it's easier to water-down the specific roles CoH ATs were built around and spread the love.
There is no "aggro" AT. There is no "healer/support" AT. Damage is the general priority and everything else is usually in a secondary.
All the CoV ATs can solo at almost any level. It's fun and entertaining.
In CoH, blasters and scrappers can solo. Controllers can late-game. Defenders and tanks, it's just painfull, man, especially now, for tanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
And from what Ive seen they did exactly the wrong thing... Instead of simply buffing slightly the damage of the healer/buffer/debuff types they nerfed those that DO damage down to their level..... and made the distinctions between classes much much more hazy.
Nothing wrong with having the Trinity of a sort. Everything wrong with making every AT seem like every other AT :P
I find CoV PvE far more entertaining, flexible, and streamlined than CoH PvE has ever been.
If two tanks want to duo, it's going to be real crappy for em. 2 brutes? It's go time. 2 stalkers? ditto. 2 corrupters? perfect. A team of MMs reminds me of the all-defender PvE teams...they own.
It's nice not to always have to put together the mage/meatshield/healer threesome. As game population goes down, and IMO, CoHs definately is, I'd much rather be able to form a competant group 80% of the time than a uber group 40% of the time.
I think the autonomy is much more interesting and fun than depending on another random person too much for any one thing.
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the corruptor shouldn't stand there like a moron and eat the damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, my Defenders do.
Mobility is, sadly, not the key to PvP defenses. Due to travel suppression, active offense precludes defense, and the problem becomes worse when your offense is ranged.
Impunity is the key to PvP defenses, as it takes mobility (and everything else) out of the equation.
The key to impunity is buffs, as most debuffs become unreliable in PvP play, due to enemy action (retreating, using inspirations, etc).
The only sure defense is status protection and two or more of the following:
1. +Resists
2. Healing
3. +Defense
In that order of importance.
When my friend and I play our Sonic/Sonic Defenders, I don't really care what an PvP opponent does to me, since the -ACC debuffs don't bother me (I can outwait them, or use Amplify(Aim)), Slows don't bother me (I can outlive them, or use a high-damage attack and not worry about recharge), and any -Damage that heads my way is offset by the -Resist effects in my attacks.
Other status effects are what Clarity is for (stacked five times, natch).
With four or six +Resist "bubbles" on each Character and two/three-stacked Leadership (all three toggles), and the Medicine pool available to each character, it's largely irrelevant what tactics any opponents use.
Which is important - I can't second-guess what will happen in a free-for-all PvP zone, so I simply plan to make any and all opposition impotent.
You might ask "is that fair?". That's an excellent question! Let's look at the uses of a PvP zone:
1. PvE missions. Getting into a fair fight on the way to/from a PvP mission is uninteresting to me, personally. If I wanted to experience the "joy" of being defeated by my peers, I'd be running around the zone like a chicken with its head cut off, not running a mission.
2. Grandstanding. "Look what I can do" loses its appeal if you die instantly after saying that (ask a Blaster if you don't know what I mean). However, challenging any and all comers, and then "training" 10-15 opposing Characters around the zone can be great fun...for both sides. Sometimes, Stalkers will become obsessed with defeating me, and then everyone can have a good time.
Occasionally, a Dominator will get Domination and actually hold one of us through stacked Clarity, but that's not a problem - Dominators need to feel powerful sometimes, too.
3. PvP play. In the odd occasion that I feel like defeating other players (typically when asked to help by a friend getting beaten severely), I don't play to lose. Particularly when helping a friend out, I play to annihilate all opposition. While something can be said for fair-play, a game that allows the Stalker AT to exist isn't really geared toward one-on-one balance. If I'm going to be doing something that I don't really enjoy, I'd rather not be bad at it as well.
In neither of the three cases I'd be traipsing around Warburg does "fairness" concern me.
I'd submit that PvP games are all about who has the advantage, and anyone that thinks differently simply hasn't played WoW or EQ2 or AC2 or... well, any other MMO that allows for PvP. While it's nice that PvP play has no penalty in CoX (which is the only reason I'd be caught dead in a PvP zone - ha ha), that also means that there really isn't any point, either.
Oddly, this seems to be a good plan (Crypic is always genius on the initial implementation of something, nice), since only people that really care about PvP play even bother, and there isn't any "loot" to be had that would "force" people into PvP zones.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
//Actually, my Defenders do.
That's a very cool description of how you and your friends play your defenders, and I'm happy you're having a good time Multiple defenders/controllers/corruptors is indeed a strong concept, and even though it isn't a popular one it does serve to illustrate just how broken balance is in both PVP and PVM - *IF* you have that critical mass of support ability at once. When you're not fortunate enough to have an overload of buffing (or perhaps wise enough is a better way to say it), I still maintain that mobility is your main defense.
This is sheer genius.
This helps me understand why my heroes have so many advantages over my villainsl.
Musings:
Do you want to know my big, overarching beef with CoX PvP in its current form? (if you don't, stop reading)
CoH and CoV have two different, unequal paradigms, that meet in an unbalanced way in open PvP.
CoH focuses on synergy: Each archetype has several specific weaknesses, and one(or two) tremendous strengths. Various archetypes team, and in doing so the holes in their build are filled, and their strengths magnified. It fits well with an heroic theme - strength through cooperation. The synergy is multiplicative.
CoV's paradigm is one of self-sufficiency: each individual archetype has all the tools to solo, in a way that's much easier and intuitive relative to CoH's archetypes. (Note: This is a weaker thesis with several outliers that can present a meaningful counter-argument) When the 5 CoV archetypes team in Open PvP, their synergy is often only additive, and weaker than their CoH counterparts.
Worse, stalkers(unlike other villain ATs) have a specialization-level ideal for a PvP environment. High burst damage. High stealth(which translates to defense(all)). If a small enough team of stalkers(like Spines/) can work together to insta-kill squishies - they've found a synergy-multiplier of CoH-levels, to the detriment of the other CoV ATs. Other ATs are marginalized.
That's the root fundamental imbalance facing the devs. They're combining 2 games with 2 different 'rules' into one.
(that, and the need for extremely high burst damage in a PvP environment supporting instant-escape travel powers --- it's not necessarily imbalanced, but it creates a daunting learning-curve for new PvPers).
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, this was interesting:
See _Castle_'s post (click link) where he says Stalkers' Snipe Powers would be at their Melee Damage Scale, rather than their Ranged Damage Scale:
[ QUOTE ]
FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently, though, the higher-ups came to their senses and vetoed _Castle_'s gift to Stalkers (click link):
[ QUOTE ]
Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed. (emphasis mine)
[/ QUOTE ]
In what universe does _Castle_ live in that giving a melee Archetype the penultimate ranged power (a Snipe) would be "balanced" at their Melee Damage Scale rather than their Ranged Damage Scale?
Boo-freakin'-hoo. Cry me a freakin' river.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
Thread-Skipper Activated....
[ QUOTE ]
So yes they will be able to crit from hide after a BU but we still have BU and AIM.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see, Stalkers have Build UP (a major damage booster) and the Hide crit (a major damage booster) and Blaster get Build Up (a major damage booster) and Aim (a major accuracy booster).
Uhm.... yeah.... this seems fair.
Do we even need to mention Stalkers have status protection while Blasters have [censored]? Do we even need to mention that Stalkers have a decent defensive capacity in addition to their status protection while Blasters have jack to go with their [censored]?
Seems to me, the answer would be yes and no. Actually, the answer would be "[censored]-the-hell yes we need to point this out" and "why the [censored] even bother pointing it out".
Stalkers only do .6 range damage, and the activation/interrupt time for snipes are increased in Stalker's patron pool. Personally I am quite disappointed with villain PPP's altogether, heroes still has it good with their already high damage ATs and mez resistance/defense in Blaster and Troller epic pools.
I have to admit though, it puts a big grin on my face for those newbies rolling an ice/energy Blaster just to get by easy in PvP and those days are numbered with the toggle drop changes. I will now go back to playing my ice/ice Blaster (deleted my energy/elec) more for the challenge and not for the stupidity of toggle dropping and ending the foe's day within 3 shots which really gets freaking boring after a while, it will involve much more ranged tactics and some of the secondary powers has immob, powerboost, debuff, etc. that will help.
chewyboywa:
[ QUOTE ]
Stalkers only do .6 range damage, and the activation/interrupt time for snipes are increased in Stalker's patron pool. Personally I am quite disappointed with villain PPP's altogether, heroes still has it good with their already high damage ATs and mez resistance/defense in Blaster and Troller epic pools. (emphasis mine)
I have to admit though, it puts a big grin on my face for those newbies rolling an ice/energy Blaster just to get by easy in PvP and those days are numbered with the toggle drop changes. I will now go back to playing my ice/ice Blaster (deleted my energy/elec) more for the challenge and not for the stupidity of toggle dropping and ending the foe's day within 3 shots which really gets freaking boring after a while, it will involve much more ranged tactics and some of the secondary powers has immob, powerboost, debuff, etc. that will help.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please, point me to the "mez resistance" power in the Blaster epic pools.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
[ QUOTE ]
chewyboywa:
[ QUOTE ]
Stalkers only do .6 range damage, and the activation/interrupt time for snipes are increased in Stalker's patron pool. Personally I am quite disappointed with villain PPP's altogether, heroes still has it good with their already high damage ATs and mez resistance/defense in Blaster and Troller epic pools. (emphasis mine)
I have to admit though, it puts a big grin on my face for those newbies rolling an ice/energy Blaster just to get by easy in PvP and those days are numbered with the toggle drop changes. I will now go back to playing my ice/ice Blaster (deleted my energy/elec) more for the challenge and not for the stupidity of toggle dropping and ending the foe's day within 3 shots which really gets freaking boring after a while, it will involve much more ranged tactics and some of the secondary powers has immob, powerboost, debuff, etc. that will help.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please, point me to the "mez resistance" power in the Blaster epic pools.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I second that I'd like to know where this mez resistence in epic blaster powers is hope he/she doesn't mean FON, if its then I hope the Devs put a special bulletin in big burning red caps dispelling this myth.
Ok stlakers get the bigger melle BI index in thier snipe attack seems weird to me but whatever, I guess them being the king of melle burst damage it fits. Now isn't it reasonable to give blasters high BI damage in thier range attack now that blasters are the RANGE AT.
I was referring to indomitable will for Trollers for the mez resistance.
I would have to agree that blasters do need a damage increase for their range powers. An easy fix for this would be to change most sets ranged "Burst" powers, aka Blaze, Energy Burst, etc. from close range attacks to something more along the lines of their regular ranged attacks. There is already a post for this however, somewhere on the blaster boards.
For me personally...
1v1-Blaster vs Stalker: the stalker should always win, if not, you need to practice more
Teamed Blaster vs Teamed Stalker: If perception buffs are present, then the stalkers chances are limited, but not entirely. Just because you can see a stalker, it does not mean they cannot hit you with some nasty critical damage. Then again, now that I can see you, a simple quick blast will knock you out of hide, and then prepare for an onslaught. We had some great pvp in Sirens Call last night, though the villians didn't develop any good tactics other than TP-ing heroes into drones. The only reason we kept most of them at their base was due to a lack of creative and strategic tactics. Rarely is their an open pvp battle where both sides are thinking more about tactics and strategy than revenge or reputation. This is why I have really started to enjoy base raids. Without solid plans, tactics, strategies for both offense and defense, you will lose, no matter how many stalkers you bring or how many blasters with buffs you have.
Final note: Those disappointed with the pvp zones, try a base raid! I think you will find it much more enjoyable. Though I would suggest playing in some of the zones just to "cut your teeth" so to speak. Remember, its only as much fun as you make it
would you rather the stalkers be given focused accuracy and conserve power? or perhaps give the dominators hibernate, and the corruptors PFF? get real our patron powers suck compared to the epics that are chosen by heros for pvp in mind. yeah force of nature for the masterminds please.
heros always think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, but when you actually roll up a villain and look at what the PPP's have to offer your AT and build you will laugh and tell yourself, damn i wish i had focused accuracy on by brute so /dark and /rad defenders couldnt pawn me while i whiff whiff.
please by all means keep crying, and if you wanna help us and help yourselves you could ask the devs to delete the PPP's and give us similar epic power pools, i'd even pat you on the back and PL a villain of your choice to lvl 50 20 days after issue 7 was released if you could make us more balanced via PM's to the devs.
[ QUOTE ]
I was referring to indomitable will for Trollers for the mez resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]
And that gives Blaster mez resistance exactly how?
[ QUOTE ]
CoH and CoV have two different, unequal paradigms, that meet in an unbalanced way in open PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
That sound that everyone just heard, was Logarithm hitting the nail right on the head with a 50 pound sledgehammer of truth.
I agree 100%. I kinda understaood that before I started posting. It's hard to refute logic with emotion and not be left feeling empty at the end of the night.
Speaking of which, we should be hearing something about "Stalkers being overpowered" any time now, but to move things along so that we don't have to wait for it, I'll say it now:
So basically we'vee established, for everyone to plainly see, that the only real difference between Stalkers, whom many blasters - including the ever so vocal Circuit-Boy - claim as being "unfairly over-powered" is that unlike Blasters, Stalkers have to be "Hidden" to be overpowered, whereas Blasters, don't have to even do that much. They fully and unabashedly flex their "over-poweredness" for all to see, and don't even need a situational circumstance like being hidden and undetected in order to pull it off.
Man that has to be the best logical conclusion ever seen on this forum. I'll go ahead and settle in with my Marshmellows. Things should be heating up anytime now...