Actually 85% defiance is +340% damage, assuming 3 slotted for damage, no need to apply both buildup and aim, single aim should be enough. (not accounting for defense, but then the boost from defiance + aim should be enough for that as well).
here is what i have found on defiance...i was in bloody bay with my lvl 18 blaster and was fighting a brute
i had popped 2 purples and he was missing over and over again...i was lowering his heath slowly but then was assasin striked to almost 0 hp...just barely above it, and i clicked all my purples and was gonna continue fighting the brute who was still at about half health...i did my main attack with build up and aim and in one hit he died...when with bu and aim i had already done it and moved his hp just a tad bit...i then proceeded to click 2 yellows and one shot the stalker with electic blast and build up when it charged
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I frequently find myself wishing I had Defiance on my Corruptor. ...
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And I frequently find myself hoping to Scourge on all of my characters.
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There's an idea here: How about if your inherent power was something you chose at character creation time, or maybe at level 10?
You could have tanks with Critical, and blasters with Fury, and all kinds of novel things.
Choosing your Inherent Powers at Character Creation you say?
BRILLIANT!
This is an awesome idea.
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Choosing your Inherent Powers at Character Creation you say?
BRILLIANT!
This is an awesome idea.
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And will NOT be listned to!
But go ahead and post it anyway, at least then we can't say we didn't try... again...
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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For me defiance doesn't work because I never use the section of my health bar between half full and empty!
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Yup, that's how I operate as well. I have not found a use for Defiance at any level. Defiance needs to do "something," more often. Even if it just gave a tiny damage boost, earlier on, it would be infinitely more useful than it is now. However, I expect that nothing about Defiance will get changed, ever. This is the "deadest" horse in the CoH universe, IMO.
I use defiance all the time. It works well for me. If you have no more use for defiance, then by all means go right back to always having to do normal damage all the time across the board to defeat enemies.
Of course, my pet peeve is scrappers that don't take their taunt. A scrapper without his taunt is just a blapper with a bit of resistance.
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Choosing your Inherent Powers at Character Creation you say?
BRILLIANT!
This is an awesome idea.
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And will NOT be listned to!
But go ahead and post it anyway, at least then we can't say we didn't try... again...
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You know.......I'm willing to bet that this idea has already been posted...probably several times. In fact, basically every single thing that's been said in this thread has been said literally at least 10 times before.
We're making SO much progress!
So, anybody got numbers on % of endgame blasters before defiance, and after? You know, from server sampling?
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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Giving blasters defiance is like giving a diet pill to someone who's morbidly obese by crushing it up and sprinkling it over a pizza.
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That's the most beautiful simile I've seen all day. 
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I use defiance all the time. It works well for me. If you have no more use for defiance, then by all means go right back to always having to do normal damage all the time across the board to defeat enemies.
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That's what I do, which is fine. I just wish that Defiance was something that was more useful for my aggresive playstyle. I can enter tough fights with my Controllers, and get much benefit from Containment. Same goes for my Corruptors and Scourge, or my Scrappers and Crits. Defiance does nothing for me in a tough situation. If I'm doing poorly, I die. In my Electric Blapper's 30 level existance, Defiance has saved me from certain death only once. That bums me out. Defiance seems to reward a more cautious playstyle, which I don't find very fun.
I still love my Blasters anyway. I just wish that Defiance would do something for me, more of the time. The inherents just don't seem balanced, IMHO. *shrug*
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You never dismiss a bug report by dismissing the user or demanding that they 'prove it'. If their complaint is clear enough to be understood, you start tracking it and you work on resolving it. PART of that resolution might include getting a better description of the problem, or getting a way to reproduce the problem from the user.
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I did not say dismiss the bug. I said I never take the users word at face value. Often times the user "Lies" about what they were doing at the time. When I say Lie, I mean they mistate or misremember. I followed up that statement with Using historical data to track down what acutaly happend. Never dismiss a bug, if a user says it happend you can usualy trust that it did.
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2) You never dismiss a customer complaint which is based in the customer's dissatisfaction with a feature or a feature set. Ever. Especially you never tell the customer to their faces that they have to prove to you that their complaint is valid. This is the fastest way to lose customer confidence and a fast trip to failure for the product.
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I agree, and never implied otherwise.
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And, yes, I consider Masochism, er, Defiance, to be utterly broken, as it is only useful in a handful of situations that no competent player will get into by choice. Only the "Negligence" power of Defenders is as worthless, and none of the CoH innates is as well-designed as the CoV innates. Gauntlet and Scrapper Crits are marginally OK, but they worked fine before the Special ED changes
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I team regularly used to team with people who look out for the blasters. The blasters makes alpha strike, gets low on health (Defiance kicks in) and everyone gets the agro off of the blaster. Once that happens, the blaster is free to use single attacks that will either one shot (for orange and lower) or put a red or purple down to a mear sliver of health. Its not my fault the people you team with don't understand this concept. Defiance is not a bad power at all, like I said earlier...you can increase the speed of missions by 4-5 times the "normal" rate. (I.E. not using Defiance.)
On the asside, I am glad I don't work with you as well.
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You're the one with limited experience, as so stated. We're all in agreement, you're the dissenter, you go prove it.
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I did not say I have limited experience. I am just saying that I did not have that problem pre-I6. Between I5 and I6 I played nothing but my 2 main blasters (I have 6 blasters most of which are lvl 14 and below).
Short of turning back time and showing you I did not have a problem there is nothing I can do. As such it is incumbent upon someone else (or me, if I can ever get a chance to, or the QA team or the Developer who is trying to fix this problem.) to find out when it started.
Can anyone disagree with this?
NOTE: I created this post yesterday before the boards went down.
Also, I want to thank the people who are actually testing and posting numbers. This is what this thread was ment for...not this bickering from these other low life SOBs that just cloud up the issue with useless rants. I, for one, am done posting on the boards. It serves no purpose other then to up my blood pressure and confirm my suspicion that most people are nothing more then part of the problem.
P.S. For those who are actually interested in tracking down this bug, I tested last night with my 2 high level blasters. At no point in time did I see the problem of 100% health giving me a Defiance boost. I was unable to accurately test the defiance meter at varying levels in PvE and was unable to find someone who was willing to test in PvP. Good Luck to the people who are trying to help, piss off to those that are part of the problem.
hey i was just wondering is defiance added in after your initial dmg is calculated or is it already calculated with your dmg
just wondering thx in advace
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hey i was just wondering is defiance added in after your initial dmg is calculated or is it already calculated with your dmg
just wondering thx in advace
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Defiance is calculated at the same time as all other damage buffs. For example, if you have 3 +damage SOs slotted in an attack (+95%), have been buffed by one Kinetics Siphon Power (+25%), and are at 30% health - assuming the numbers here are right - (+70%), your attacks will do 290% of their base, unslotted and unbuffed damage. That's compared to 100% health but with the same slotting and with one Siphon Power, which would cause your attacks to do 220% of their normal damage.
Defiance is subject to the damage cap (500% of base damage.)
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Defiance seems to reward a more cautious playstyle, which I don't find very fun.
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Funny you should say that....
I tend to have a fairly cautious playstyle. And I always said to myself "Lich, it's a shame that defiance seems to reward a more aggressive playstyle, because you just don't get any benefit from your inherent 95% of the time."
So if aggressive players thing the cautious players benefit from it, and the cautious players think the aggressive players benefit from it...hmmmm...
The Lich-King (50 Elec/Energy/Elec Blaster)
Co-Founder & Base Architect, Great Minds SG
Pinnacle Server (@Lich-King)
MA: "Death to Disco" (Arc ID# 167748)
- "Go. Hunt. Kill Numina."
Defiance is great for the "I don't give a crap about debt" playstyle, in my experience.
Or the LEEEROOOY... JEEEKIIINS playstyle.
Those two playstyles are often inter-related.
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
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Defiance is great for the "I don't give a crap about debt" playstyle, in my experience.
Or the LEEEROOOY... JEEEKIIINS playstyle.
Those two playstyles are often inter-related.
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It's great if you ignore it. A passive that easily gives a significant bonus to damage in all but the simpliest tasks? It's far from horrible.
Only problem is that it doesn't *look* like it's doing anything. Who notices an extra 5% damage on each attack? And that bar? It doesn't move an inch til you're at the last 10% of your health!
Here is the thing, I can actually use defiance. When I say "use" I mean abuse it.
I am not 100% certain but I believe that NPC perception ticks. It is possible to actually attack from behind cover by quickly scooting out and activating an attack while scooting back into cover. You can do this without being attacked back if you happen to get lucky and pop out in-between perception ticks.
This means that if there are columns in a level I can very effectively kite in cover while being almost dead and gain full benefit from defiance.
After my health has recharged a bit I will go and agro a minion whose ranged attack I know will take a significant portion of my life but won't kill me. I will then proceed to kite around corners or columns and kill my targets with the boost from defiance. Immobilize powers help alot doing this of course.
This is not something I do in teams. In teams I don't have the time for fancy tricks like this unless the team has the entire rest of the spawn agroed and that is rare without a tank, if the team has a tank then I am slamming AoE down anyway and will not be useing defiance because my health isn't dropping.
There has only been one time in my blasting experience where defiance actually worked the way Statesman described it working. Only once did a mob hit me low enough to put me in the red and I was able to launch an attack that killed him before he or another mob killed me.
To sum this all up, I don't think defiance is giving the majority of blasters the boost that the developers expected it would. I don't believe the majority of players in this game are playing in the manner that the developers see defiance benefiting blasters.
This is why a majority of posts on the subject of defiance are negative.
Well you want us to give you more details. I believe many individuals have done this by testing it. But inorder to do these tests they have done the drop from the sky test so that they can get Defiance Bar up. This does not make for a good test.
You say it is working. Well I have not a clue on how it is suppose to work. All that I can say is for my blaster to see any movement in my Defiance bar she needs to be at less than 5% health. This is also not good due to the very squishly nature of blasters.
You have failed to see what people are saying. I for one am not going to go out and do any tests to provide data to show that when I am nearly dead I get an increase to my damage.
The reason for this is because I know I am a squishly and if I take any damage that puts me at less than 50% health I will do one of two things. Pop a green and get healthy again or I turn tail and run.
Now this only happens when I fight bosses since I kill Lts and minions quickly. So I do not need any more damage output what I need is more staying power.
Defiance as a inherent power is flawed since it requires you to be nearly dead for it to work. No Blaster in their right mind will put themselves in this position for any length of time.
As a Elect/Elect/Elect I do spend more time in melee range of mobs and am more of a blapper than a blaster. But to even think that I expect Defiance would be of any use to me will never happen. This is because I either kill the mob quickly or if not will never stay at low health unless I have no more greens.
Because of this Defiance is a joke. It is a power that only works when you are dying and even then takes so long to kick in you are face down long before you see move.
If you think that Blasters want a power that is dependent on them being near death than you are a fool/idiot in believing that is what we want.
So continue to say it is working as intended and we will continue to say that we hate it as it is currently.
We are the only AT that as an inherent power that gets better the closer you are to dying.
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Poster: Concern
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I am not 100% certain but I believe that NPC perception ticks. It is possible to actually attack from behind cover by quickly scooting out and activating an attack while scooting back into cover. You can do this without being attacked back if you happen to get lucky and pop out in-between perception ticks.
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This means that if there are columns in a level I can very effectively kite in cover while being almost dead and gain full benefit from defiance.
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True but if you think about it your strategy is to have a minion slap you near dead to get a boost.
Now I'm no authority on Blasters but anytime I've been playing my strategy is to get hit as little as possible and work on getting hit less times. Only a Dev would think that a blaster would let themselves get hit a lot hense the low usefulness of Defiance.
While it CAN be used in a beneficial way that way is so alien to our survival instinct that it is near to totally useless.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
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Poster: Concern
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I am not 100% certain but I believe that NPC perception ticks. It is possible to actually attack from behind cover by quickly scooting out and activating an attack while scooting back into cover. You can do this without being attacked back if you happen to get lucky and pop out in-between perception ticks.
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This means that if there are columns in a level I can very effectively kite in cover while being almost dead and gain full benefit from defiance.
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True but if you think about it your strategy is to have a minion slap you near dead to get a boost.
Now I'm no authority on Blasters but anytime I've been playing my strategy is to get hit as little as possible and work on getting hit less times. Only a Dev would think that a blaster would let themselves get hit a lot hense the low usefulness of Defiance.
While it CAN be used in a beneficial way that way is so alien to our survival instinct that it is near to totally useless.
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All I can say is that I have gone way out of my way to find a usefull purpose for this inherant. I did actually use it in the 20s in Siren's Call missions to help me hit Arachnos mobs that I KNEW would not kill me quickly and were in small numbers but high level (invinceable missions huzzah).
Now here is the iceing. Many of the posters on this board have probably ran into the Nightshade bosses with their stealth, -perception, and their unholy amounts of offense and defense. These gals make Paragon Protectors look like pushovers. I happened to be at full defiance several times against one of these bosses (it took me 5 tries before I managed to kill this one boss through shear insperation use alone). Even with the defiance boost I couldn't hit the Nightshade, hell I think I even /bugged it when the zones first came out because I was shocked at how RAIN OF FIRE MISSED THE BOSS COMPLETELY. Some stalkers can get through it too so I wasn't completely shocked. It just goes to show you what those horrible defenses they have can do.
Also, as far as I can tell defiance is most assuredly broken in one way. It doesn't enhance rain effects.
Post level 30, I don't bother even remembering this power exists. The conditions that made it usefull in the low levels and the cheese that helped it in the 20s are gone. For the 30s I see this as being the most pointless of inherant abilities. Maybe if my character picks up a resistance shield I will be able to use it to cheese again. I doubt it however.
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Also, as far as I can tell defiance is most assuredly broken in one way. It doesn't enhance rain effects.
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Didn't I see a post around that Rains and some similar AoE/location type attacks were being changed to fix that? I'm sure I did.
So I tested with several of my dozen blasters and I collected some data. Then I made a Graph
These blasters ranged from 7 to 39, with a variety of primaries.
First, I can confirm the earlier chart; it looks like you get about +10% when you are at 50% health. and +25% at 40% health. Then it goes waayy up.
However, note that in a couple of hours of trying I only got 1 shot off under 20% health; death is a real factor down there. At least when you are trying to monitor your health and defiance and damage #s and write them on scraps o paper.
Also, even though the defiance meter isn't moving between 100% health and 50%, you are getting some slight benefits to damage there.
My conclusion: in view of this damage function, I'm not at all unhappy with my defiance damage. I can get the 5% that a scrapper gets from his CRITICAL, and I can match a corruptor's SCOURGE. And I can get silly damage for taking silly risks. I only wish the Defiance bar in the UI would move more.
Last night, used my SR friend to test defiance,
85% defiance + BU+AIM+PB = 2 shotted scrapper.
Bonesmash and Total Focus did the trick.