One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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A defender has low health, low defences and low damage output. What they do have are the capacity to buff and heal others. To me this says they are made more for teaming. Knowing this, going solo into a PvP zone as a defender will leave you at a disadvantage reguardless of build or tactics.
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Are you serious the only one that applies to is empathy that's it. Rad, storm, dark, kin have damage that rival that of blasters thanks to their debuffing/buffing abilities they are not at a disvantage. The only people that are at a disadvantage is any poor sap that aims for them thinking they are easy prey. There is no way for my brute to take down dark, rad or storm, kin can be a mix bag. The only way to win is if I sneak on them that's right a brute sneaking on people. Your entire analysis is based on false propaganda I have played enough defenders to know this is very very false.
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A defender has low health, low defences and low damage output. What they do have are the capacity to buff and heal others. To me this says they are made more for teaming. Knowing this, going solo into a PvP zone as a defender will leave you at a disadvantage reguardless of build or tactics.
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Are you serious the only one that applies to is empathy that's it. Rad, storm, dark, kin have damage that rival that of blasters thanks to their debuffing/buffing abilities they are not at a disvantage. The only people that are at a disadvantage is any poor sap that aims for them thinking they are easy prey. There is no way for my brute to take down dark, rad or storm, kin can be a mix bag. The only way to win is if I sneak on them that's right a brute sneaking on people. Your entire analysis is based on false propaganda I have played enough defenders to know this is very very false.
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I think his point is simply that squishies WHERE designed to be extrmely vulnerable, not that they are entirely helpless, but that if as a defender some one gets the upper hand, it may be over before you get any chance to fight back. If i get with my SS tank close enough to AS and hit, i found they wont be flying away from me no more and i'll be able to stay close enough to kill them with extreme ease, but as you noted, i must get up close first and that may be tricky. Stalkers will almost always be able to sneak up on a defender (or blaster or controller) and that is what i think the poster meant.
Happy Bday Starsman very subtle avatar 
Thanks, was bored yesternight due to bad internet connection that prevented me from playing 
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He's right, I one-shotted him, for two reasons. First, critical hits (including assassin strike) are unresisted in PvP. In other words, I do full damage to anyone I hit. Second, I'd used a handful of reds first because there were other players, or mobs, or something around him (it's been a while back, I forget) and I needed to get the quick kill and get out.
So... yeah.
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Thank you for confirming my pwnage... 
I must go reconstruct my manhood now... 
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I maybe wrong, but it seems like the complaint of one shotting, be it a stalker, blaster, a team ect is more based on the build of a character (power choices mostly the power pool options) or simple tactics used.
<Snip a whole lot of calmly thought out positions.>
(incidently you may have noticed that I repeat myself, clarify and put in disclaimers...this is due to the staggeringly high amount of people who will misquote, focus on single points instead of entire discussion or just simple be argumentative without anything to back it up. And yes this was meant to be hostile.)
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Wow. I really like that post. A tip of Mr. Mighty's fedora to you, sir.
I believe you're right and appreciate the fact that it was very non-confrontational and not once called anyone a "whiner." I'd give you stars but someone did away with them.
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Are you serious the only one that applies to is empathy that's it. Rad, storm, dark, kin have damage that rival that of blasters thanks to their debuffing/buffing abilities they are not at a disvantage. The only people that are at a disadvantage is any poor sap that aims for them thinking they are easy prey. There is no way for my brute to take down dark, rad or storm, kin can be a mix bag. The only way to win is if I sneak on them that's right a brute sneaking on people. Your entire analysis is based on false propaganda I have played enough defenders to know this is very very false.
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I just don't see it the same. Yes, I do believe a defender has the potential to be a juggernaught but to do so they need to throw a bunch of de-buffs at a foe or suck power from them. Then they have to throw attacks. Whereas most other AT's can just wade in and start throwing attacks (controllers/defenders being the exception but thier focus is holds/mezzes so its a trade off).
What I mean is that a defender needs to use extra powers which can miss as opposed to the brute who only needs to hit. I probably should not have said 'regardless of build or tactics' that implies they have no chance to overcome their difficulties.
I am gonna quote myslef here,
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And yes there are exceptions so there is no need to explain your ubercool stalker who can do everything. We are all smart enough to realize that nothing is absolute.
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I had hoped people would read this and understand that I do know there are exceptions to everything. Any AT can be made formidable in PvP, its just that some are easier to do so with.
starsman says:
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I think his point is simply that squishies WHERE designed to be extrmely vulnerable, not that they are entirely helpless, but that if as a defender some one gets the upper hand, it may be over before you get any chance to fight back.
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Actually I think any AT is at a disadvantage if they are not the attacker but yes, I feel the defender AT is one of the worst, controllers/dominatos having the hardest time of all if they find themselves the one attacked.
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Stalkers will almost always be able to sneak up on a defender (or blaster or controller) and that is what i think the poster meant.
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They do have a great chance to sneak yes, but anyone has the potential to be sneaky. It is just that stalkers are built to be sneaky from the get go.
In all that I have said I hope one thing stands out. Every AT is diffrent...with diffrent merits and flaws. What one AT has for an advantage another may not. That is the exact reason for having the diffrent AT's. One will not be balance against another and I hope they never do.
One last thing, DarkPhoenix, do you have any thoughts on the body of my post or just that small small part of it?
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What I mean is that a defender needs to use extra powers which can miss as opposed to the brute who only needs to hit. I probably should not have said 'regardless of build or tactics' that implies they have no chance to overcome their difficulties.
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RI, EF, DN, tar patch, Hurricane, freezing rain,snow storm and all anchors and AOE powers don't miss still don't see what difficulties you are refering to since I have yet to see a brute take down a rad/dark/storm defender solo. Which brute attack do you know of that's auto hit.
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RI, EF, DN, tar patch, Hurricane, freezing rain,snow storm and all anchors and AOE powers don't miss still don't see what difficulties you are refering to since I hate yet to see a brute take down a rad/dark/storm defender solo. Which brute attack do you know of that's auto hit.
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Well I am glad for you. In your view a defender is better than a brute. Yay. I don't agree thetthose autohit powers are not as godly as you do. I don't agree that a defender can always take down a brute but thats not here or there. I do see your point. A defender can fight well too. That is just proving my point. One AT has advantages over another. If it makes you feel better change the part where I use defenders and stalkers to brutes and defenders.
Please, this is one point in a much larger post, do you have anything to add to the body of the message.
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In all that I have said I hope one thing stands out. Every AT is diffrent...with diffrent merits and flaws. What one AT has for an advantage another may not. That is the exact reason for having the diffrent AT's. One will not be balance against another and I hope they never do.
One last thing, DarkPhoenix, do you have any thoughts on the body of my post or just that small small part of it?
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I agree with the overall sentiment of your post that every AT has their weakness and that when they team the fact that they complement each other (or at least your hope) makes up for whatever imbalance they have 1 vs 1. I just have a very hard time with your example since I don't think it's true.
Generally speaking, there shoudl be no one shotting in the PvP game of any type by any AT.
I'm not complainihg about stalkers here or about aim/buildup blasters. I'm speaking in the general sense.
Every PvP encounter should contain the opportunity for fun. This is where the fun and excitement comes in. Both parties in a PvP encounter shoudl have an opportunity to apply skill and style to the combat. One-shotting removes this.
Instead of having both parties having a potential for a fun and satisfying encounter (whether they win or lose) you now have certain ATs whose primary design is to have fun for themselves at the cost of removing any joy or excitement from the encounter for the other player.
In a better designed system, we can still have exciting PvP encounters that yield higher satisfaction and enjoyment for both parties in the encounter instead of a lopsided event that carries no opportunity for skill or excitement for the one-shotee.
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I think alot of the complaints about this can be adressed if people consider PvP and PvE seperate games.
Those that tend to get the one shot kills have built their character for PvP. What this means is they spend a majority of their time in PvP and have designed their character for just that. That is both a merit and a flaw. Builds for PvP do not do well in PvE. Yes they can switch between the two but the truth is if you build for one aspect over the other you will be at an advantage in one and disadvantaged in another.
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I don't think many of the opponents of "cheap" kills (one-shots, TP into tripmines, etc.) are unaware of this truth, or think that a PVE build Defender ought to be able to beat a PVP built Stalker. I think they are well aware that there are significant differences between the PVP and the PVE games and a paper-scissors-rock-lizard-spock relationship between ATs.
The central issue is that PVP combat should ADD to the fun of the game for both participants, and that a combat that is essentially a quick, unstoppable loss for one opponent is not particularly fun for that one opponent.
It may be LOADs of fun for the other opponent, as they work very hard and strategically to set up their trap, find their prey, and spring the trap. But for the victim of said trap, the combat boils down to:
"What the-?"
"Oh NO!"
"Faceplanted again. [censored]!"
That just isn't fun.
Now, I know that this kind of thing is a risk you take in a PVP zone, but accepting a risk and enjoying it are two different things. The more often this particular form of PVP combat occurs, the less appealing the zone becomes and the more interesting the zone content has to be to overcome that risk, eventually, it deflates the fun for both sides - since hunters don't have a lot of fun without prey.
I think it's not an unreasonable expectation on the part of PCs to want to be "dangerous" prey. Prey that takes more than one hit to kill. Prey that has a chance to fight back. Prey that might be able to escape. Prey that *might* pull from behind to turn the tables. Prey that can, at the very least, wound you on the way to the grave.
If you can one-shot them, they aren't dangerous. No matter what capabilities they have, they will not get to use them if they are one-shotted.
And if they have capabilities that are already dangerous to you active (PBAEs, Sufficient Defenses), then you simply will move to another target. (So, even when they "win" they don't get to have fun.)
There's a lot of room between being dangerous and having the upper hand. People who build for PVP should clearly have the upper hand, but they should still find their opponents dangerous (as defined above).
Note: The above reflects my personal philosophical position on this issue and may or may not express the attitudes of others who are against one-shotting, the devs, or the owners of this forum.
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I don't think many of the opponents of "cheap" kills (one-shots, TP into tripmines, etc.) are unaware of this truth, or think that a PVE build Defender ought to be able to beat a PVP built Stalker. I think they are well aware that there are significant differences between the PVP and the PVE games and a paper-scissors-rock-lizard-spock relationship between ATs.
The central issue is that PVP combat should ADD to the fun of the game for both participants, and that a combat that is essentially a quick, unstoppable loss for one opponent is not particularly fun for that one opponent.
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I do see your point. One shots are frustrating if not downright unnaceptable. But I have yet to see a battle between two individual characters last more than 20 seconds. It probably happens but I think that oneshotting aside the majority of PvP battles are over very quick.
There are so many ways to boost yourself before a battle that unless you start it you will be disadvantaged. Between click powers, inspirations, slotting and power pools the option is there.
Again, I do inderstand how much one shotting can anger someone. The current makeup of PvP is the main reason for this. You are allowed to initiate attacks at any time.
The only two solutions I can see both have flaws.
One is to only allow PvP when both sides agree to it as in the arena...but that didn't work because the arena was seldom used.
The second is to put a cap on damage from a single attack. But this means that alot of things become weak if not useless. With a lower damage cap brutes will lose the extra damage from fury, scrappers will lose extra damage from criticals, stalkers will lose the extra damage from stealth attacks, dominators will lose extra damage from domination, blasters will lose estra damage from buildup and defience, corruptors will lose extra damage from scourge, defenders will lose extra damage from de-buffing and controllers will lose extra damage from (cant remember their inheirent power). Not only those powers will be affected but certain big damage powers will see that the extra damage enhancements go to waste. And what do you do about mm's with the pets...each attack dosnt hit the max but the lot will definately. Or those with skill at key binding who are able to fire off the 7 attacks they have without a pause in between.
If you want to play PvP but do not like to get oneshotted then try the arena. Otherwise I find it hard to agree that PvP is broken. You know what is there...you can follow certain tactics to limit oneshotting.
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Now, I know that this kind of thing is a risk you take in a PVP zone, but accepting a risk and enjoying it are two different things. The more often this particular form of PVP combat occurs, the less appealing the zone becomes and the more interesting the zone content has to be to overcome that risk, eventually, it deflates the fun for both sides - since hunters don't have a lot of fun without prey.
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Ok, now this makes alot of sense. I agree with most of this in that people will lose interest in PvP.
This sort of game is not the best for PvP. Shooting games, fighting games...those work for pvp because the characters are completly balanced...here they are not. Its not a flaw with the game its just the way it is.
As for the PvP zones being empty...I doubt it. There will always be those who want to PvP and they will go there.
One thing to consider as well, CoV is still pretty new. Alot of new players have come in and one of the reason for that is the PvP aspect. Even those not interested in PvP will at least try it out. So the PvP zones are pretty full most times. It is inevitable that a good portion of the new players will move on to a new game or only play every so often. When that happens the PvP zones will clear out alot. At that time the oneshotting will be less obvious as you will be able to spend much more time in the zone before being beat. Which I think might be the largest reason for complaint you get killed quick in pvp right now. It happens often cause the oneshotters have soooooo many targets to choose from.
Just to clear two things up:
First:
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Again, looking at PvP and PvE as two seperate games will help some understand that most (not all) of those performing the one shot kills are built to do just that and as a result it is all they do.
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In Siren's Call, there's one characteristic most of those performing one-shot kills have in common: They're Stalkers. It is POSSIBLE for a Blaster to one-shot Masterminds with a Sniper power and a LOT of Red Inspirations. Stalkers, on the other hand, can just about one-shot anyone.
Second:
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Imagine an electric blaster slotted to extremes for end reduction, couple that with the electric cage and boom, few others will stand against them as long as they initiate the attack.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You don't know anything about Electric Blasters, do you? First of all, for PvP, Endurance Drain suffers a 75% nerf. Were you aware of that? Second, even if it did not, the most a single Electric power could Drain in one shot is Power Sink at 75, due to Enhancement Diversification. The "basic" powers (Lightning Bolt, Charged Bolts, Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Thunder Strike, Ball Lightning, etc) Drain 5 Endurance. Slotted heavily for Endurance Drain, they'd drain 10. Whee! I know. Terrifying.
Also, there is no power named "electric cage". Maybe you mean Tesla Cage, which is a basic Hold power. Virtually every Scrapper, Stalker, Brute, Tanker, and many others are utterly immune to Holds.
I am the Electric Blaster you're talking about. Due to the 75% pre-nerf of Endurance Drain for PvP, most of my powers are utterly useless.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You don't know anything about Electric Blasters, do you? First of all, for PvP, Endurance Drain suffers a 75% nerf. Were you aware of that?
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No I was not aware that end drain took a hit in PvP.
But as you cannot discuss things without being condesending and arrogant you are not worth my time.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You don't know anything about Electric Blasters, do you? First of all, for PvP, Endurance Drain suffers a 75% nerf. Were you aware of that?
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No I was not aware that end drain took a hit in PvP.
But as you cannot discuss things without being condesending and arrogant you are not worth my time.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You don't know anything about Electric Blasters, do you? First of all, for PvP, Endurance Drain suffers a 75% nerf. Were you aware of that?
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No I was not aware of it. But as you are incapable of discussing things without being condesending and arrogant you are not worth the time.
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The only two solutions I can see both have flaws.
One is to only allow PvP when both sides agree to it as in the arena...but that didn't work because the arena was seldom used.
The second is to put a cap on damage from a single attack.
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Just wanted to note that there are a lot of suggestions out there, all with their own flaws mind you, but more than the two you are considering:
<ul type="square">[*]Pippy suggests that all PCs con Red to one another, thereby decreasing their accuracy to about the same level as the +25% DEF manages today and also decreasing their DMG/DEBUFF/CONTROL to ~65% of it's current strength in PVP[*]Arcanaville suggests that getting the full damage from AS only hit some of the time, thereby forcing Stalkers to plan for the post AS game, but allowing the occasional one-shot[*]cohRock suggests something he calls the 7/70 Warranty which would insure you 7 seconds of combat in a manner pretty fair to the person dealing damage[*]Hunter has a thread exploring a DOT solution, which would convert some of the damage you receive to DOT sp you have time to react.[*]There are a number of ideas in my Ending PVP 1 Shot Kills thread (although my OP was pretty flawed) including the one I have settled on as my personal favorite...[*]My notion to just leave one-shotting alone, but turn all awakens/rezzes into combat rezzes in PVP, making retribution a real factor for the one-shotter and giving the one-shotted a way to protect their loot (has been veryu controversial)[/list]
I think the solution you like best depends on what you think the real problem is, but there are more sophisticated solutions than the two you map out.
Post deleted by Alexa
Deamongelous:
Apparently, as you cannot discuss things without engaging in personal attacks, you are not worth my time, either.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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RI, EF, DN, tar patch, Hurricane, freezing rain,snow storm and all anchors and AOE powers don't miss still don't see what difficulties you are refering to since I have yet to see a brute take down a rad/dark/storm defender solo. Which brute attack do you know of that's auto hit.
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Freezing Rain can and does miss in PvP. Every area of effect power with a damage portion now has a chance to miss in PvP.
And anchors? Do you know exactly how problematic those are? 3 of them have cast times greater than four seconds - that's long enough for a half-decent energy melee brute to kill you.
So, yes, I've seen a lot of brutes killing rad/dark/storm Defenders. I've seen a lot anything kill defenders.
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I think the solution you like best depends on what you think the real problem is, but there are more sophisticated solutions than the two you map out.
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I am sorry, I had missed that I didn't include the word 'simple'. It should have read :
The only two simple solutions I can see both have flaws.
I did most of the solutions you offer in your post. I suppose I should have further clarified that while I think many of these solutions are great in theory(i especially like the conning red one), I think that first there are ways around each and I am not a programer, but they must be monumental tasks to undertake for the devs. Yes they are there to provide us with the best game they can, but Iwould rather see more zones, more powers,AT's...hell I would rather see more costumes than a better PvP enviroment.
The fact that one AT has an advantage in PvP does not seem a large concern to me. Much if not all of the advantages one AT or build has can be countered by another AT or build. If PvP is something you are interested in then part of the challenge is to find a way to beat the oneshotters consistantly. If all you wish to do is have a pick up match... maybe give the arena a try...it is much busier these days as people are starting to realize that the PvP enviroment there is much more friendly.
I didn't even think one-shotting was possible in COV.
I tried it using several builds back in beta and could never cause enough damage to kill even defenders/controllers in a single shot. That's using 3-4 green SO slots in damage as well as buildup and several reds. Using buildup + 3-4 slotted AS would usually give take away 2/3's of a defender's health.
I don't pay much attention to these boards anymore and I haven't had the time I wish I had to play my stalker outside of beta, but since when (and under what circumstances) is it even possible to one-shot anything as a stalker?
Just my $.02, I don't think oneshotting should end. To me PVP should have that "danger." I guess it depends on what reputation/bounty means, and to that end are the "stalkers" raking it in?
I have to admit Stalkers (and that is the only way I have been one shotted) do cause me to quit playing after 10 min, of just dying 3 or 4 times in a row. I love PVP, when I can play more than 2 or 3 minutes...but it can be unfun. If there was some way to reduce the frequency to all AT's, yet keep it in place so that you have to be aware of the possibility, I think that would enhance that game overall.
Just Lucky that way...
I maybe wrong, but it seems like the complaint of one shotting, be it a stalker, blaster, a team ect is more based on the build of a character (power choices mostly the power pool options) or simple tactics used.
Lets look at the tactics first. Well if someone uses the terrain and team mates to advantage then I say bravo (with the exception of guard tower). That is one side being smarter than the other. We should not be hindered for our intelligence.
But the truth is, it isn't tactics (at least not in the traditional sense) that seems to cause the most complaints. It is the way a character is built and slotted. The use of Tp foe, stealth, tactics, jump ect coupled with the slotting of enhancements for accuraccy and damage or debuff make a character formidable. That is the purpose of slotting.
I have never looked at the numbers but just going from what I have seen, no AT... not even stalkers... can one shot another AT...even defenders...unless they are slotted/built to do so. Sure this is obvious. The thing to remember is that it can only happen in PvP zones.
I think alot of the complaints about this can be adressed if people consider PvP and PvE seperate games.
Those that tend to get the one shot kills have built their character for PvP. What this means is they spend a majority of their time in PvP and have designed their character for just that. That is both a merit and a flaw. Builds for PvP do not do well in PvE. Yes they can switch between the two but the truth is if you build for one aspect over the other you will be at an advantage in one and disadvantaged in another.
Worse still is the character that tried to balance for they will not be good at either.
Yes arguments can be made that stalkers have an advantage over defenders or a tank can beat a blaster or even vice versa. But in knowing that, when you create a character you know its strengths and weaknessess. A defender doesn't try to tank and a corruptor dosn't try to be a scrapper.
To compare a defender against a stalker seems a little silly to me. Most arguments seem to be in reguards to these so lets just look at them a bit.
A defender has low health, low defences and low damage output. What they do have are the capacity to buff and heal others. To me this says they are made more for teaming. Knowing this, going solo into a PvP zone as a defender will leave you at a disadvantage reguardless of build or tactics.
A stalker has low health, moderate defence and both the capacity for incredible damage but mostly does average maybe slightly above. Soloing PvP zones for them is ok but not great cause if they are discovered they cannot stand up to the assault of most other AT's. Yes they do have the ability to run around hidden, but by the time anyone goes into a PvP zone they do too so that isnt a very good argument to me.
If you compare a defender vs a stalker they just dont add up nor should they. They both have very diffrent rolls to fill in the game. One could make the same argument about damage potential with a brute and his fury or a blaster with his build up. Yes I know the damage output is vastly diffrent but still it is a valid point.
A stalker could also complain that they get killed way to easy for a melee AT after they use AS so all in all it balances out to me.
Again, looking at PvP and PvE as two seperate games will help some understand that most (not all) of those performing the one shot kills are built to do just that and as a result it is all they do. And yes there are exceptions so there is no need to explain your ubercool stalker who can do everything. We are all smart enough to realize that nothing is absolute.
Stalkers, and to a limited extent, the MM's have been taking the brunt for the complaint on one shotting because their inheirent makeup lends itself to that. But what about controllers/dominators with chain holds.
Personally what I have found is that reguardless of AT's, whoever starts the fight tends to win because they have prepared themselves for it with insp, power usaged ect, while the defender is at a disadvantage because they cannot spare the time or are unable to use their own insp or powers.
I would like to repeat something now and it will probably sound hostile but that is not my intent at all. You know the advantages and disadvantages of an AT when creating them. You know that defenders cannot stand up against scrappers (usually, again please no stories of your amazing defender) so when you go into a PvP zone you know what your in for. I am not one to say don't go into the PvP zones if you don't like it because that is a pretty empty argument. I am just saying be prepared based on your AT.
If your intent is to rule or even compete well in PvP certain AT's will do better than others. Imagine an electric blaster slotted to extremes for end reduction, couple that with the electric cage and boom, few others will stand against them as long as they initiate the attack. Just so I am clear (without it being as hostile as it sounds) if you find your defender/controller/whatever lacking in PvP and are unwilling to accept it, then play a diffrent AT in the PvP zones.
One thing that may help ease some of the tension regarding oneshotting...at least in sirens call. Make the bountys AT dependant. Meaning, a defender only gets bountys on defenders, stalkers on stalkers ect. Not a great fix but its the only one I have because I seldom think about PvP. It just does not hold my interest. I don't do it and doubt I ever will. I just figured these points might help.
None of this post is a solution it is just another point, discussion...even arguing is a good thing, it breeds change and change begets growth.
(incidently you may have noticed that I repeat myself, clarify and put in disclaimers...this is due to the staggeringly high amount of people who will misquote, focus on single points instead of entire discussion or just simple be argumentative without anything to back it up. And yes this was meant to be hostile.)