One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I am making that statement because I am working under the assumption that all scrapper sets are "roughly" equivalant in terms of survivability. Will one set fair better against certain enemies?... Sure... but in general they all fair about the same.
I do understand that you believe that all defensive based sets are pretty much the bottom of the barrel.... I personally do not think that is the case.
Defensive sets are probabalistic... resistance sets are reliable... but that does not necessarily make 1 better than the other.
Based upon that kind of thinking stalkers have much better damage as their criticals are reliable and scrapper criticals are a roll of the dice.
Mathematically it all evens out over time.
Defensive sets may enter one battle and not even get scratched... they may enter a similiar battle 2 days later and get creamed because they get hit by 5 lucky shots in a row... that is the nature of the beast, but it does not make it bad.
Thank you for the link by the way, I will try and work out some numbers later.
I was finally one-shotted! Ok, technically it was still two shots, but the second shot would have one-shotted me if the first did not go off. Granted, this was solo against a L52 Psychic Babbage, but still, his Psychic Wail did 1650 + 850 + 850. Preceded by Psychic Scream that did around 550, that's three times my total max HP. Needless to say, I was a really, really dead Blaster. I did scratch his armor good, though. He'll remember me.
Why did I attempt to solo a L52 Psychic Babbage? Well...you never know until you try... 
As for PvP, my Blaster has yet to be one-shotted, though I did tear up an unsuspecting Mastermind in seconds. He/she was my bounty, and I did ambush them. It wasn't really fun, and I'm sure they weren't happy. But I was using the Bounty to buy L2 Insps...so I could go back to Mr. Babbage.... I'm sure if they knew the reasoning, they'd approve.
Cyclone Jack
-= idspispopd =-
[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]
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I am making that statement because I am working under the assumption that all scrapper sets are "roughly" equivalant in terms of survivability
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If it were so then defensive sets would not be viewed as problematic would they. You also have to take into account the difference in HP and utility certain sets such as (DA) stun and fear and multiple defense, (inv)def, resistance, health regen. [ QUOTE ]
Based upon that kind of thinking stalkers have much better damage as their criticals are reliable and scrapper criticals are a roll of the dice.
Mathematically it all evens out over time.
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are you assuming that they both have the same base damage. Stalkers BI is .9 while scrappers is 1.125, scrappers damage rivals brutes and blasters and their defense is enough to stand up to my DM and SS brute even with a full fury bar. I have lost many matches to scrappers and thats with me fully slotted with SO's, while they have np taking down scrappers, that's not taking into account primaries such as spine that cancel out AS or secondaries with auras that do the same.
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If it were so then defensive sets would not be viewed as problematic would they.
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Just because a number of people have convinced themselves that something might be the case does not necessarily make it so.
In this scenario the numbers really are the definitive factor here.
You do not have to believe me, but on my invuln scrapper it is often his defense that saves me and not his resistance.
Allow me to set up a hypothetical scenario for you here and I believe it will illustrate why people "perceive" defensive sets to be worse off than resistance sets.
Let us assume there exists an AT that has 1000 HP... let us assume that the player in question then has the choice to select 90% resistance to all damage and zero defense... or 90% defense to all damage and zero resistance.
From a mathematical perspective their survival rates over time are identicle.... there is no difference whatsoever
Let us now assume they are put up against a foe who attacks for 500 damage per hit.
We know for a FACT in this situation that the resistance based player will die in 20 hits... no doubt about it.
So far as the defense based player in concerned we do not know how many hits it will take to defeat them... it could be 2... or it could be 200.... but on average it will be around 20.
The reason that people "perceive" defensive sets to be lacking is because it is very easy to ignore the 200 misses... and instead the mind emphasizes the few times that the computer got lucky and floored them in 2 hits... a 1 out of 100 chance.
When you play for over a year and are attacked hundreds of thousands of times that 1 out of a 100 chance crops up more than once and leaves the player with this impression of "wow... this sucks... I die so easily".
But that impression is a false impression... the same way we might be inclined to call someone a poor driver for getting into 2 accidents within the course of 2 weeks... it is easy to do when we ignore the fact that they have been driving for 20 years and never got into an accident even once before that.
The human mind is designed to emphasize tragedy and failure... that is the reason why defensive sets are thought of by some as lacking... with resistance sets you know what you are in for, so the consistance makes it "feel" more effective when in actuality it is not.
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Best solution to TP foe I've heard: 5 seconds of intangibility after the port (as they're pulled through the dimensions). The target gets time to run, if they react quickly. Won't change PvE much, and will prevent a good chunk of the TP foe nonsense we're seeing now. No more porting people into minefields, full groups, or placate/AS.
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I know this is pages and pages ago, but I just had an idea that I had to say.
1. I love the above idea. It's too long though - suppression kicks in at 3 seconds, and it's still possible to get out of a bad situation. A 2 second phase shift would probably still yield the desired result, without completly ruining the power.
2. This can apply to "one-shotting" as well. If a single person does X amount (90%+?) of damage within X amount (1 second) of time, they cannot cast *any* powers for 2 seconds (this wouldn't apply to already running toggles). It won't stop team ganking, but I don't think anything will.
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You do not have to believe me, but on my invuln scrapper it is often his defense that saves me and not his resistance.
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you have defense, resistance and dull pain (plus HP plus health regen) you are not only relying on one mitigating factor there is no way you can say one for sure that defense is saving you. [ QUOTE ]
Let us assume there exists an AT that has 1000 HP... let us assume that the player in question then has the choice to select 90% resistance to all damage and zero defense... or 90% defense to all damage and zero resistance.
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you do know that the translation from def and resistance is not as clear cut as that which is the case states made when comparing lucks to sturdies. Because mobs and we have a default accuracy and accuracy boosting powers. The odds are dramatically worse when the other guy has AOE's.
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you have defense, resistance and dull pain you are not only relying on one mitigating factor there is no way you can say one for sure is saving you.
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Absolutely I can... when dull pain has already been used and I am down to 10% of my HP... it is not getting hit that is keeping me alive... not anything else.
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you do know that the translation from def and resistance is not as clear cut as that which is the case states made when comparing lucks to sturdies.
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When were we comparing lucks to sturdies?
You seem to desire to alter the topic as my only contention here is that defensive sets are not a piss poor as you seem to be suggesting.
Defensive sets are not as reliable as resistance sets... but they have their own inherent bonuses that resistance sets do not recieve.
For example... when contending against a foe who tosses mez effects at you... even if both a resistance set and a defensive set have the same mez protection... the defensive set is much better off.
Why is that might you ask?... Simple... because a mez effect that does not land cannot stack with other mez effects to stun you... a resistance based build does not dodge those mez effects so they stack up more easily than on a defensive build.
The situation is not "clear cut"... in some ways resistance has benefits and in some ways defense has benefits... but to just assert that resistance is better than defense is incorrect.
You seem to be very well versed in the methods to circumvent defense... such as acc and to-hit bonuses... in a similiar manner, damage boosts effect resistance builds (and if you argue that the damage boosts also affect defensive builds I will just have to remind you that acc boosts also affect resistance builds)... if you would like me to go into the mathematics of it I would be happy to, but I really do not think it is necessary to make this post any lengthier than it already is.
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Absolutely I can... when dull pain has already been used and I am down to 10% of my HP... it is not getting hit that is keeping me alive... not anything else.
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Dull pain regenerates you health so it's not gone per say and resistance is making you take less damage. unless you just play with just invincibility on you cannot say that the 90% that was taken away from your HP was mitigated with defense. [ QUOTE ]
if you would like me to go into the mathematics of it I would be happy to, but I really do not think it is necessary to make this post any lengthier than it already is.
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your first example used 100% defense versus 100% resistance but thats simply not the case when you take into account powers that trump defense all together and the fact that it's not 25% defense versus 25% resistance for scrappers. But you would also have to take into account utilities, difference in HP and several other variables such as stun, fear effects that cannot be quantified. Simple fact it is much easier to trump defense then resistance you can debate that all you want, but there are simply more then enough tools in either secondaries and primaries of AT to do the job. If the devs did not feel that way then they would not have changed PVP to help the defensive sets. I have yet to have any problems taking down an ice tank or SR scrapper though so you figure it out.
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Dull pain regenerates you health so it's not gone per say and resistance is making you take less damage. unless you just play with just invincibility on you cannot say that the 90% that was taken away from your HP was mitigated with defense.
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Allow me to paint a scenario I just played out and you will see what I mean about defense making ALL the difference.
Dull pain was not used in this case so that it's sudden HP boost does not come into the equation.
I approached a lvl 52 Boss... He smacked me and began to reduce my HP at a phenominal rate... Then I double stacked Divine Avalanch for an additional 48% defense... Suddenly I could stand there all day and not worry about death.
As such it is fair to conclude that without the extra defense I was going to be dead in about 4 seconds... but with the extra defense I was suddenly able to stay alive even with 15% of my health and not worry about death at all.
Sure the boss could have smacked me and killed me with the 5% to hit floor (which I am not even convinced I hit... it is more likely I got him down to 25%).
The problem with your argument is that you were under the assumption that my defense at the beginning of the fight was the same as at the end... when I was getting trounced I had minimal defense... when the fight became sustainable I had substantial defense.
As such it is VERY reasonable to conclude that the defense is what made the difference... as I proceeded to chew some greens to up my health and then shut off unyielding and temp invulnerability and was still doing just fine. (i.e. resistance did not cut it... but defense did the job)
You can be convinced that defense is terrible... that has not been my experience... in fact I have found defense to be a GREAT boon to my survivability in situations where resistance just does not cut it.
Your experience might be different of course... by my own experiences and the numbers do not agree with you.
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Simple fact it is much easier to trump defense then resistance you can debate that all you want, but there are simply more then enough tools in either secondaries and primaries of AT to do the job.
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I do not need to debate anything here... you have stated something as "fact" that is really just your "opinion".
As such the only rebuttal I need to offer is that I do not agree with you and that I have a different opinion on the matter.
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I approached a lvl 52 Boss... He smacked me and began to reduce my HP at a phenominal rate... Then I double stacked Divine Avalanch for an additional 48% defense... Suddenly I could stand there all day and not worry about death.
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48% but wait what about invincibility you weren't surviving on that alone were you?
Ok let me give you a scenario a scrapper in a siren's call has 50% defense (that's assuming he is slotted defensively and has SO's). Tanker build up gives what 40% acc buff so the stalker now has 10% chance of not getting hit suddenly the odds don't look so favorable now do they. And that's not taking into account builds that have double build ups (fiery embrace + build up or Aim+build up, targeting drone) which trumps your entire secondary all together. Some of these powers last 10 seconds take a guess how long it will take for one player to execute a full attack chain then you understand the stalkers leannig towards running rather than fighting.
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As such the only rebuttal I need to offer is that I do not agree with you and that I have a different opinion on the matter.
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is that your way of saying it's best to agree to disagree 
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is that your way of saying it's best to agree to disagree
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That is exactly what I am saying lol
I have tried to sway your opinion with a few anecdotes from my experience, as well as a few numbers I crunched.
You have tried to sway my opinion with your own experiences and some areas where you feel defensive sets have an obvious disadvantage.
And as we can both see we have not managed to adjust eachothers view points much... there is nothing wrong with that of course... I respect the fact that you have a strong opinion on this issue, and if I cannot convince you otherwise it means my arguments are not solid enough.
I do thank you though for the link to the hero build information... I will try and gather some numbers for a more complete analysis between stalker and scrapper regen and SR sets... when I have the time I will post my findings on a separate thread and I hope you will take a look to tell me what you think ... while we may disagree, I do value your opinion.
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There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.
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I would agree with this statement, if you had said, "no attack in the PVP game". I believe PvP should be balanced by itself, without regard to PvE. That would be nice. Save the nerf bat for the PvP zones. When you enter, prepare for the beating.
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I have tried to sway your opinion with a few anecdotes from my experience, as well as a few numbers I crunched.
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This was never a winnable debate from either side, and I think we all knew that. For any anecdote and number crunch one side can come up with, the other side can come with just as many.
Basically, you're never going to convince someone that's been killed so many times by a particular archetype that it's balanced, and you're never going to convince someone that plays the archetype and dies fairly frequently that they need to be nerfed. There's no solution to this that's going to make everyone happy. One way or the other, someone is going to be pissed.
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Best solution to TP foe I've heard: 5 seconds of intangibility after the port (as they're pulled through the dimensions). The target gets time to run, if they react quickly. Won't change PvE much, and will prevent a good chunk of the TP foe nonsense we're seeing now. No more porting people into minefields, full groups, or placate/AS.
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I know this is pages and pages ago, but I just had an idea that I had to say.
1. I love the above idea. It's too long though - suppression kicks in at 3 seconds, and it's still possible to get out of a bad situation. A 2 second phase shift would probably still yield the desired result, without completly ruining the power.
2. This can apply to "one-shotting" as well. If a single person does X amount (90%+?) of damage within X amount (1 second) of time, they cannot cast *any* powers for 2 seconds (this wouldn't apply to already running toggles). It won't stop team ganking, but I don't think anything will.
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This won't stop AS. It will merely make a stalker time their blow better. Remember, the stalker has to initiate the attack and not move but the target can go wherever they want and they will still take the damage after the animation is over.
The situation would be: Stalker tp's foe, foe is intangible. Foe realizes what's going on. Stalker pauses the strike until the foe begins to leave then hits AS. Foe runs and becomes tangible. Animation on AS ends, foe dies.
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People really need to knock this crap off. Play the game or don't quit calling for a nerf of this or that, be it Stalker, Blasters etc. I have played a stalker in Pvp, as well as a scrapper, a brute and a defender and Blaster. Stalkers AS is not over powered. Some times you die quickly, some times you don't. As a stalker I've had a hard time getting kills and some times they were so easy it was anti-climatic.
It all comes down to what tatics you use. If you stand still in a PvP zone and don't have any type of defense,(perception..etc..you are putting yourself at risk). Hell, I saw a tanker low on HP SJ out of a big fight a couple hundred yards and try to rest behind a wall. I followed him and AS'd him. He yelled that I was cheap..and so forth; now was it the UBERness of AS that killed him or his poor tactics? Quit complaining and just play. If you get beaten by a tactic, learn from it, build to defend against it. But for F's sakes quit being children and crying about who has what toys.
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There be truth here. Leave it to an Irishman to set the record straight!
Time for a pubcrawl!
For the record, if I could change my MA/Invuln Scrapper's secondary to /SR for PvP, I would in a heartbeat. I5 + I6 + all of the toggle dropping powers out there + crits bypassing resistance has pretty much obliterated Invuln as a PvP powerset. Be thankful that Stalker secondaries are defense-based and not resist-based.
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For the record, if I could change my MA/Invuln Scrapper's secondary to /SR for PvP, I would in a heartbeat. I5 + I6 + all of the toggle dropping powers out there + crits bypassing resistance has pretty much obliterated Invuln as a PvP powerset. Be thankful that Stalker secondaries are defense-based and not resist-based.
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Brother (or sister), I feel your pain.
My main, whom I love with all my heart, is a lvl 50 Dark/Invuln scrapper (Mr. Mighty). Instead of doing what I built him for (being the tank when the tank wasn't there) he's now a furious storm of mouseclicks to keep alive. Two self heals and both are necessary at regular intervals, I actually make one of them part of my attack chain to keep him standing.
Endurance issues, though not as bad thanks to Novella; still forced into a nerfed Stamina; and a "set-defining" power that I have to jump into a crowd who's damage I can't handle in order to make effective...
Like I said, I feel your pain.
The first day I was able to play PvP I took him into Siren's Call. He put on all his toggles and commenced to helping out at a hot spot. As he stood there, waiting at the end of the battle at full health with UY, TI, Invinc, and DP all up... BAM! 1-shot down (courtesy of Stalker Quason... hey, if I'm gonna be killed, might as well be from a pro!).
I'd rather see Mr. Mighty given back his namesake rather than nerfing another AT. It feels like we're getting our teeth kicked in by the schoolyard bully and instead of standing up to him we point to someone smaller with more lunch money and yell, "That kid's easier to pick on... and he called your dad a sissy, too!"
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we point to someone smaller with more lunch money and yell, "That kid's easier to pick on
[/ QUOTE ] FYI...that is the schoolyard bully.
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For the record, if I could change my MA/Invuln Scrapper's secondary to /SR for PvP, I would in a heartbeat. I5 + I6 + all of the toggle dropping powers out there + crits bypassing resistance has pretty much obliterated Invuln as a PvP powerset. Be thankful that Stalker secondaries are defense-based and not resist-based.
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but inv is regeneration+resistance+defense, I am not saying I like it I absolutely hate it but that's the direction the devs have decided to take the set. Inv is superior to stalker def set because of the triple combination, although I wish they would do something about that health crash on unstoppable.
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For the record, if I could change my MA/Invuln Scrapper's secondary to /SR for PvP, I would in a heartbeat. I5 + I6 + all of the toggle dropping powers out there + crits bypassing resistance has pretty much obliterated Invuln as a PvP powerset. Be thankful that Stalker secondaries are defense-based and not resist-based.
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Brother (or sister), I feel your pain.
My main, whom I love with all my heart, is a lvl 50 Dark/Invuln scrapper (Mr. Mighty). Instead of doing what I built him for (being the tank when the tank wasn't there) he's now a furious storm of mouseclicks to keep alive. Two self heals and both are necessary at regular intervals, I actually make one of them part of my attack chain to keep him standing.
Endurance issues, though not as bad thanks to Novella; still forced into a nerfed Stamina; and a "set-defining" power that I have to jump into a crowd who's damage I can't handle in order to make effective...
Like I said, I feel your pain.
The first day I was able to play PvP I took him into Siren's Call. He put on all his toggles and commenced to helping out at a hot spot. As he stood there, waiting at the end of the battle at full health with UY, TI, Invinc, and DP all up... BAM! 1-shot down (courtesy of Stalker Quason... hey, if I'm gonna be killed, might as well be from a pro!).
I'd rather see Mr. Mighty given back his namesake rather than nerfing another AT. It feels like we're getting our teeth kicked in by the schoolyard bully and instead of standing up to him we point to someone smaller with more lunch money and yell, "That kid's easier to pick on... and he called your dad a sissy, too!"
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I find it hard to beleive you where one shotted unless your resistances where slotted VERY badly and dull pain wasnt up. My brute of the same powersets doesnt get anywhere NEAR one shotted when AS'ed in warburg.
He's right, I one-shotted him, for two reasons. First, critical hits (including assassin strike) are unresisted in PvP. In other words, I do full damage to anyone I hit. Second, I'd used a handful of reds first because there were other players, or mobs, or something around him (it's been a while back, I forget) and I needed to get the quick kill and get out.
So... yeah.
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My brute of the same powersets doesnt get anywhere NEAR one shotted when AS'ed in warburg.
[/ QUOTE ] I believe the math shows that any Brute ont on DP can be two-shotted by EM/* stalkers...without inspirations. So Quason could two-shot you such that you won't have time to react. And since he can just wait until he sees your DP wear off by watching your HP meter...it's pretty much guaranteed if you stop moving.
Stand still in Warburg after challenging any EM to do it without insp. They'll come a callin'
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I believe the math shows that any Brute ont on DP can be two-shotted by EM/* stalkers...without inspirations. So Quason could two-shot you such that you won't have time to react. And since he can just wait until he sees your DP wear off by watching your HP meter...it's pretty much guaranteed if you stop moving.
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I can confirm that. Did it last night.
The only defensive scrapper set is SR, 3 out of 4 stalker secondaries are def. How can you possibly make such a broad statement.