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If that was the goal, the game design isn't proper now. When I saw Statesman in person and mentioned that my SG had no tankers in it (we didn't aim for that, just nobody made any), he told me "You're going to need them."
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Heehee. He just meant you needed someone to Tank the majority of the I5/I6 nerfs.
They did their job!
Didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to make a quick point.
The last 2 issues saw defenses and controls nerfed to 1) make the defenders feel more useful, 2) make the game harder. Fine. I think both of those objectives were reached somewhat successfully.
The other big goal of States was to curb powerleveling, so we saw the AoE limitations put in the mix. A fine solution on the surface, but I think this is where Tanks really feel the nerf bat hardest.
With defenses lowered, and no ability to taunt/control/or even damage groups of mobs over a certain size, a fundamental gameplay change occured. Teams went group by group, killing off each group before proceeding to the next one. Even maps were changed to reflect these changes so spawns were intentionally moved further apart.
With fewer mobs to manage in each fight, damage became more important in terms of leveling than damage mitigation did. As has certainly been pointed out, a scrapper with enough buffs/heals can certainly manage one spawn's worth of aggro/dmg. Outside of the over ambitious blaster/spawn with too many hard hitting bosses, things are still very manageable. But now the emphasis is put on speed from group to group. Id rather have a battle over faster with more heals, than one that lasted longer with less.
Personally, I'd still prefer a tank in an AV fight, or vs certain spawn types, but, in general, a scrapper will contribute more measurably to the team on average.
Anyway, don't know if I have much of a solution. Maybe raise the Taunt cap to 10 and up base Tanker Def/Res by 10%. Possibly combine those kind of changes with a reduction in offense?
Just some thoughts.
Maybe a Tanker's inherent power should have more to do with Defense than with control then?
Don't Scrappers have a better chance to Crit on Higher Level opponents? (I thought I read that in game, maybe I'm mistaken though).
What if Tankers had boosts to their defenses based upon who was attacking them, such that higher level opponents still did more damage to them, but not as much as they would do to another AT of their level?
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His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?
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The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.
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But What I'd like to know is if that's true then why would anyone ever want a tank? slightly better aggro management and resistances/defence vs more damage with a chance to critical and good enough defences. Why wouldn't you go with a scrapper instead, he can do the job and deal out the damage. It just doesn't make sence to me.
I mean I've been tanking since the game started, and I've been with you for most of the tanking changes but ever since I5 and I6 I've gone from being able to take on a group of enemies fully buffed to just being killed faster than my team can heal me.
I really feel that you've given the damage dealers better damage, and the buffers better buffs but you took away our defences and gave some of it to our squishy friends. I used to feel powerful as my tank now I just sorta feel sad.
Oh, it must be dreamy to have a costumed nemesis. Chasing you, wringing his gloved hand in concern for your every move. - Dr. Orpheus
Sorry Statesman but agro cap is 17.
First 17 posters can only post to Statesman.
Everyone else, run amok. 
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Anyway, don't know if I have much of a solution. Maybe raise the Taunt cap to 10 and up base Tanker Def/Res by 10%. Possibly combine those kind of changes with a reduction in offense?
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There's a hard cap on aggro now, 17. Upping Taunt to 10 would just make it easier to hit that cap and it's already very, very easy. (Literally, jump in a spawn with an aggro aura, and start hitting stuff and you'll get 17.)
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a Tanker's inherent power should have more to do with Defense than with control then?
Don't Scrappers have a better chance to Crit on Higher Level opponents? (I thought I read that in game, maybe I'm mistaken though).
What if Tankers had boosts to their defenses based upon who was attacking them, such that higher level opponents still did more damage to them, but not as much as they would do to another AT of their level?
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Scrappers get a better chance at crits vs. Lts or Bosses. Opponent level doesn't factor into the critical chance equation. 
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Anyway, how about this:
Heals generating aggro.
Is that crazy?
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The only problem is that there is no way in hell that Defenders can survive that aggro. If we're talking Taunt level aggro here, no way. Not without some changes to the AT. Or unless you want this game to become one that requires the "holy trinity" style teams. IE: If you have a healer you must have a tank or the healer gets creamed.
There's a fine line between being useful and being required. Frankly, I don't want to see anyone be required.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
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His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?
[/ QUOTE ]
The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.
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As a scrapper I can say, Yes I can tank, and have done so on lots of missions, and was able to get them done.
However, when we had a Tanker on the Team, and he can hold the aggro. Me and my teammates were very happy to have them. (I can take guys down, and try go after guys who are attacking the controllers and defenders), but the Tanker can pull them off much more effectively.
Any tankers who don't feel they are being loved or needed, are sadly mistaken in my book.
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Scrappers get a better chance at crits vs. Lts or Bosses. Opponent level doesn't factor into the critical chance equation.
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Oh ok, well then perhaps the same thing in reverse for Tankers? Better defenses vs. Lt's and Bosses? (and presumably AV's).
states, i'd really like to see someone pointedly address e.d. w/r/t passives. although posi said that you can always add more enhancers to eek out a little extra benefit if you really want, throwing more than 4 slots on any passive just doesn't make any sense. and since we're not prevented by the enhancement system from doing that...it sort of illustrates how the system seems broken w/passives. couple that with some of the passives now having a base so small to begin with that it's questionable what benefit they give at all (ex. invuln's non-rpd passives), and it just seems flat-out broken. sure, this doesn't apply nearly as much to some passives (ex. stamina, now that power end-burn has been adjusted). but when an entire block of powers in a primary are passed over by a large group of us because they're not viewed to be worth taking at all...that's a sign that things need to be addressed and looked at.
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The only problem is that there is no way in hell that Defenders can survive that aggro. If we're talking Taunt level aggro here, no way.
...
There's a fine line between being useful and being required. Frankly, I don't want to see anyone be required.
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Agree with not requiring any AT. Agree that it shouldn't be a heal = taunt.
But I take my cue from PvP. If some mobs are pounding on a Scrapper, who just does doesn't seem to get hurt or keeps healing, they should realize that the lynchpin is the defender healing/buffing the Scrapper. That seems fair to me, maybe not right away, but in time.
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His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?
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The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.
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lets see if we flip the coin to be slated to compare to a scrapper a tank has .75 or had that much a scrapers dmg prior to the last dmg buff they got. Now we have somewhere around .68-62 of scrapper dmg. Ok as far as resists/def if you say scrappers have 1 we have 1.33 times more def/resists. Why does this variation in comparision styles matter? because when a defender adds +50% def via a power or 30% resists it sits on that final diff in scale. '
Ergo: invuln:TI 22.5 s/l scrapper 30% s/l tanks both * 1.57
=35% and 48%
ok now add for example a 30% resist bonus due to sonic buff
that is by scale a 30/35% = 85% resist buff, for the tanks its 30/48=62.5 resist buff. But in the end the diff between them is 65% and 78%. 78/65=120% which makes the tanker 1.2 times better then the scrapper or the scrapper is 83% effect of the tank.
Now lets look at tanker dmg vs scrapper and dmg buffs
tanker is .75 of old scrapper dmg and a scrappers current is 112% which is 67% . k so now on to the dmg
a 6bi attack such as shadow maul, vs tanks version = 6*.67=4.02
ok now we slot w/ 3 so's and buildup
that is 6*2+.8=16.8
tanks version 4*2+.8=11.2
Note this is before any buffage! ratio diff is 11.2/16.8. Now we add in some kin buff of 200%
6*4.8=28.8
4*4.8=19.2
ratio is still .67 or so. or flipped is 28.8/19.2=1.5!
The defenders buff in effect didnt have a mutliplier change it merely added right to the def/resists. Where as buffing a tanks dmg always puts them at a disadvange.
NOTE this is ingoring the fact that scrappers get criticals as well!!
SO in conclusion tanks are .67 dmg of scrappers OR scrappers are 1.5 of tanks when fully buffed
and tanks are 1.33 def/resists base which gets skewed to 1.2 with buffs or scrappers are .75 which gets skewed to 83% or higher depending on buff.
What this tranlates to is that tanks need some serious over-haul. New inherints, new systems of powers, something to make them worthwhile.
the 20% difference in effect between them for defenses doesnt need to be made larger, im not calling for scrapper nerfs, tanks need more dmg/inherint or just scrub the AT and let us re-roll as scrappers! Something ,anything is better then the current mish-mosh.
oh if someone sees any fault with my math let me know.
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Scrappers get a better chance at crits vs. Lts or Bosses. Opponent level doesn't factor into the critical chance equation.
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Oh ok, well then perhaps the same thing in reverse for Tankers? Better defenses vs. Lt's and Bosses? (and presumably AV's).
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You know, that's a pretty cool idea. I'd never thought of it, certainly, and never seen it posted before.
It'd be confusing as hell for those of us that number crunch, but could be quite cool. It would also tend to "uniqify" Tankers against Brutes in CoV (not that I'm saying Brutes are much better tanks than Scrappers, but they do get a single-target punchvoke, plus fury, where Tankers get 5-max punchvoke and vaguely higher defense values).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
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His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?
[/ QUOTE ]
The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.
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i would agree with you, but i would have to qualify why i agree. a scrapper, with buffs, can tank as well as a tanker, assuming the tank knows what "tanking" is. many do not. they view themselves as high-hp, lower-damage scrappers. they run from agro.
a tank may have higher defenses and higher hps, yes, assuming they know how to build their character. a regen scrapper with dull pain can achieve tanker lvl (minus dull pain) hps without a problem. SR and Ice have comparable defenses, and dark armor is superior to inv (both tanker and scrapper versions) in terms of non-s/l resists. so only SOME of the tanks start with higher defenses, and certain scrappers can achieve higher hps if the tank forgoes dull pain.
now, the punchvoke. i hate this power. that's for another time. rephrasing what you said to say "has the potential to hold agro better", i'll agree with you. just because you give someone the ability to do something, doesn't mean they will automatically do better. the powers are pointless when people don't know how to use them.
the problem is that for tanks to maintain agro in large teams, they have to be buffed really well, because with ED and I5's nerfs, they don't have the ability to handle it on their own. and by handle, i don't mean kill everything in sight without taking so much as a scratch. i mean, being able to survive long enough to maintain the agro.
so yeah, tanks start with higher hps and can have higher defenses/resists than other ATs (only 2 tank primaries are signifcantly ahead of scrapper secondaries), why bother getting someone to maintain agro, when you can buff someone else up who can wipe out the crowd faster? tanks are no longer as special. it's sad when people will pass up a tank to grab a scrapper because he can do the job just as well and do more damage.
[ QUOTE ]
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Anyway, how about this:
Heals generating aggro.
Is that crazy?
[/ QUOTE ]
The only problem is that there is no way in hell that Defenders can survive that aggro. If we're talking Taunt level aggro here, no way. Not without some changes to the AT. Or unless you want this game to become one that requires the "holy trinity" style teams. IE: If you have a healer you must have a tank or the healer gets creamed.
There's a fine line between being useful and being required. Frankly, I don't want to see anyone be required.
[/ QUOTE ]
Healing should generate aggro.
If you come to a Tsoo spawn, who do you kill first?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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[ QUOTE ]
His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?
[/ QUOTE ]
The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.
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Jack/"Statesman",
Again, thank you for your time in responding to this issue. However, rather than go on for many paragraphs as to the current concerns I/we have re: Tankers, I'll just sum up the AT in one simple phrase:
Paper Tiger.
Looks great on a spreadsheet, not so hot in practice.
I'll now hand you back over to my peers, who will continue to fight the good fight. I just wanted my opinion stated for the record.
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His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?
[/ QUOTE ]
The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.
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go troll someplace else will ya?
these tanks here are trying to figure something out.
and yer not helping any.
go 'help' the blasters or something.
I was playing a couple weeks ago and a controller said to me (paraphrasing) "I don't know whose idea it was to make controllers able to tank but I love it."
I found out what he meant when I turned out to be completely useless on the team with my tanker....well....useless as far as the supposed job of a tanker. I still intercepted single mobs that got through the controller but that's what I already did with my scrapper....helped with agro management.
Now, when I play my tanker, I feel like I am just helping with agro management...especially when there is a controller on the team.
I don't think any single AT should be able to replace another but currently I think that controllers can replace tankers. 
[ QUOTE ]
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Anyway, how about this:
Heals generating aggro.
Is that crazy?
[/ QUOTE ]
The only problem is that there is no way in hell that Defenders can survive that aggro. If we're talking Taunt level aggro here, no way. Not without some changes to the AT. Or unless you want this game to become one that requires the "holy trinity" style teams. IE: If you have a healer you must have a tank or the healer gets creamed.
There's a fine line between being useful and being required. Frankly, I don't want to see anyone be required.
[/ QUOTE ]
Healing should generate aggro.
If you come to a Tsoo spawn, who do you kill first?
[/ QUOTE ]
Then almost all Defenders/Corruptors need better defenses, or possibly more HP (either of which would probably piss off Blasters!). Also, this is unduly unfair to healers as opposed to other Defender types. Should buffing draw aggro? What about buffs that you can cast before a fight. Should just being a Defender/Corruptor draw aggro?
I think whatever is in place now works just fine like it is and categorically does not need to be changed. The PvE game opponents do not need to think that much like players do. If they did, in the limit, an entire mission would come running the moment one spawn got away from a group we attacked, no one would stand around while you sniped/TPed/held their buddies (even ones from another spawn 30 feet away) and lots of other things. I'm for smarter AI, but not so much in this form. I want to see the AI have access to more interesting powers and use its powers more wisely, such as activating TI at the start of a fight, not after losing 60% health. And we are starting to see this some since I6/CoV. But I don't neccessarily want to see them truly act more like human players do.
Edited to fix amusing typo.
Edited again to address my scrapper lock on the idea. I'm imagining the effect be like taunting the foes. If healing generated aggro similar to dumping damage on foes, I wouldn't be horribly opposed to it, but I still think it unfair to healers. It would encourage sets like Dark Miasma, Kinetics, and Radiation to skip their heals, and would make life rather hellish for Empaths who actually used the huge heals they have.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Then almost all Defenders/Corrupters need better defenses, or possibly more HP (either of which would probably piss off Blasters!). Also, this is unduly unfair to healers as opposed to other Defender types. Should buffing draw aggro? What about buffs that you can cast before a fight. Should just being a Defender/Corrupter draw aggro?
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First, I have already stated that I feel that defenders should be able to target themselves for buffs.
Second, if healing/buffing drew enough aggro to make it dangerous in a fight, there'd be much more point to having an AT that's all about aggro management.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Then almost all Defenders/Corrupters need better defenses, or possibly more HP (either of which would probably piss off Blasters!). Also, this is unduly unfair to healers as opposed to other Defender types. Should buffing draw aggro? What about buffs that you can cast before a fight. Should just being a Defender/Corrupter draw aggro?
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First, I have already stated that I feel that defenders should be able to target themselves for buffs.
Second, if healing/buffing drew enough aggro to make it dangerous in a fight, there'd be much more point to having an AT that's all about aggro management.
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I understand the sentiment, but I forsee a likely outcome I am strongly opposed to: that having a healer/buffer requires a counter aggro magnet for that character to survive.
I see nothing about current conditions that warrant even risking that outcome.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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From what I've heard all the balancing is for heroic level situations. So it's fair to ask what does a tank do on heroic when there is no need for anyone to "tank".
And healing does generate aggro I believe. Not like a taunt but I thought it did.
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The number of times my FF defender drew aggro while doing nothing but running disp bubble and putting bubbles on team mates convinces me there is aggro here.
I can't say so much with others, because I've never played empathy, and everyone else has debuffs.
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Well it just that I recall drawing aggro with good old Defense Options when all he did was fire off a heal (Rad/Ene) not a debuff because when I first started playing I didn't use them, hey I tried them but was unsure they did anything other then get everything mad at me.....
[ QUOTE ]
I understand the sentiment, but I forsee a likely outcome I am strongly opposed to: that having a healer/buffer requires a counter aggro magnet for that character to survive.
I see nothing about current conditions that warrant even risking that outcome.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it'd be a problem, actually. I meanif tankers are going to need defenders to survive the aggro they draw, why shouldn't defenders need tankers to hold the aggro. If anything, it'll give tankers more reason to hold that aggro.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?
[/ QUOTE ]
The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.
[/ QUOTE ]
If that was the goal, the game design isn't proper now. When I saw Statesman in person and mentioned that my SG had no tankers in it (we didn't aim for that, just nobody made any), he told me "You're going to need them."
After ED, any time we've had a tanker along, they've been a liability. The defenders have had to spend everything just keeping them up, the controllers manage the aggro far better and as a blaster, I've had to actually jump into melee so that the tanker doesn't get dropped in 3 seconds.
I have a tanker of my own that I don't even play now. She has less defense/resistance than my scrapper and nowhere near the damage output.
Live arcs: 517377 and 517381
Virtue: Quickshot. Swiftwind. Aliuneidis. Gizmodeus. Dasher. Fiver. Inuit Acer. Daniel Darke. Cerebral Flame. El Halcon.
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