Had my first taste of PvP tonight
By
40Thieves,
Posted on: 2005-10-22 21:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well I didn't realize I said Badges were necessary...I did say PvP was necessary to get everything out of the game.
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You also said:
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And I bet atleast one of these badges is linked to an accolade or two...
So, yes, PvP or atleast endangering yourself by entering a PvP zone, is mandatory.
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While you did say "if you want to get everything out of the game," you went another direction with that last statement. So which is it?
Are they only mandatory, because you want them, resulting in a semi-masochistic habit? Or do you feel they're mandatory, period, making the statement false?
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There are stories and badges in the PvP zones that cannot be seen or aquired anywhere else.
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There are also means of avoiding conflict, altogether, while you accomplish such goals.
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And also I'd say +15% HP and +10% End is darn near required...thats what I have right now from two accolades in CoH and I imagine it'll be similar in CoV.
If people didn't feel those accolades and having that boost to HP and END were needed then they wouldn't bother getting them. I've seen people with barely any badges save those required for the HP/END accolades.
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Some people collect badges to be collecting them. Not for story, not for accolades, and certainly not because they feel it's necessary. While the concept of Collecting may elude your mental grasp, at this time, I can say that there are plenty of people who collect badges just to have them.
The accolades that give +HP and +End aren't necessary. They add what? Possibly a total of 100-some-odd hp (maybe 300m if you're a Tanker) and 10 endurance? That's like... an extra attack and the ability to take an extra half-a-hit, by the time you get them.
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I imagine 15% more HP is alot. Especially to a tank or Scrapper. That can mean a few more punches they can take. And anything that improves your HP and/or END I believe is required...especially post ED.
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To a Tank, it might be something. To a Scrapper? It's only 100-150 more hp (at least, that's what it was on mine). That's barely anything. As I said, before, that's half a hit by the time I received it. Who's that going to save?
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I assume none of you "Badges/Accolades aren't necessary" guys actually have those HP/END accolades. I mean after all no point in wasting time getting them if they aren't necessary.
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I did fine without them and I wouldn't have them if: 1) they didn't add to my badge count and 2) I could refuse them. As it stands, after collecting so many badges, you'll eventually get an accolade or three. Heck, eventually, you'll have them all.
Sometimes, you seek something, not because it's necessary, but because you want to or because it amuses you. You (and others who share such an opinion) have made it necessary only to yourself.
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If none of the PvP zone badges are related to accolades of any quality worthy of use (ie HP/END perma-buff) then fine let them be there. But as it is...if you want all the badges/accolades in CoV then you are forced into PvP.
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A self-inflicted problem. You're not forced.
Okay people PVP is NOT I repeat NOT required in CoH/CoV. Yes there are badges in PVP zones, if you want them, sneak in there and get them, no debt from a PVP death. As far as accolades from those badges/plaques no one is certain of that yet, even so NO DEBT FROM PVP. As far as Saturday nights event
. I loved it. I loved Mob vs. Mob PVP. I loved being on a villain team that pushed the heroes all the way back to their hospital. I loved being part of the Villain mob that got ambushed from behind by a Hero mob. I loved watching the Storm defenders knock Master Mind pets all over (GRRR!!! Windblown Hair!!!). Yes it was laggy, but what do you expect, the server was packed. That was probably the best event Ive participated in since Ive been playing CoH/CoV, cant wait for Statesmans Strike.
The only issue I had with Saturdays event was the Hero/Villain bar, never truly understood how it was working, though I never attempted to read anything about it either.
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I didn't get to play in the event because I went to see DOOOOOOOM.
Could anybody tell me if the battle was swinging one way or another?
Were villains or heroes as a collective force winning the overall war?
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Generally speaking, the villains got trounced. I was in a few different iterations of the zone, and the heroes were almost always further along on the tug of war bar.
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I tried 2 different Villainesses for this thing, and a big issue with that was the villains I saw were not cooperating as well as the heroes. Heroes seemed to be far more cohesive and coordinated and villains were more chaotic and disorganized. Almost like the movies/books in a way. 
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I really wanted to try out a villain, too, but could not get into Mercy Island at all, so that didn't help.
I was on SC 14 with a pair of friends on my team. I was a Dominator, who repeatedly was dominated by an electric Blaster. The Heroes in SC14 were an organized cohesive engine of destruction, where the villains couldn't get a good organized defense together until late in the game, when it was too late.
Lag was a major drawback, and really turned me off to the idea. But reflecting back on it a couple of days later i gotta say i think it will be much better on the live servers when the load won't be so heavy.
"Me, I assume 99% of the world's population are full-blown *******. Humanity seldomly lets me down."--Eisregen
�Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.�
― George Carlin
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And, while Jack says now that PvP will always be optional, a little over a year ago he was saying no PvP.
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FYI - I never, never, never said that there would be "no PvP." Never.
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you realize in a triple negative, you're saying that you said there would never be any PvP. right jack?
I count the 4th never as a confirmation of statement.
but I'm nitpicking because I'm bored.
Smile when you call me that Jack 
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Interesting note. The whole double negative rule was arbitrarily put in around two hundred years ago. Common parlance upto, and even past that time, was that repeated negatives merely emphasized the amount of feeling the speaker had for that situation.
In fact, many languages actually require a double negative in order to make a negative statement: Je ne sais pas.
The same time period, and probably the same people, are the ones that determined that "ain't" is not a word, thus depriving us of the "am not" contraction until it was officially reaccepted as a word only recently.
Still, however, the damage has been done. Double negatives and ain't are now considered poor speech despite the fact that they are both the result of rules that were applied to the language by uptight linguists. Right around the same period during which they were trying to prevent any change from occurring in the language.
So, nowadays "I ain't coming." is proper grammar (ain't=am not) but most people will assume otherwise. As such it is inadvisable to use.
Also, the "double negative" rule is now in the language, even though originally it came about because someone applied math logic to language and ignored the repeated negative as a being form of emphasis.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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Or it's completely different. It is mandatory to train and buy in order to lvl through this game, which I believe is the point of the game. To become the most powerful superhero you can be. It is NOT mandatory to have some extra exploration badges, badges showing that you killed a certain number of bad guys, or any of the helpful (but not necessary) accolades.
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Back when I started this game (Aug? 2004) I heard of a SG that was comprised soley of people who never trained- Anyone else hear of them? What a horrible way to play, if true...
Mantastic....Your Avatar....Is going to haunt me the rest of my days.
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Mantastic....Your Avatar....Is going to haunt me the rest of my days.
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He is a sweaty, disgusting beast, isn't he?
All I have to say is, if that's your Hero/Villain in CoH/V....I'm not ever going against you in PvP. There's no way I can compete with that.
PVP = fun, LAG = bad.
i honestly have no doubt that the lag will ever be that bad on a live server.
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While you did say "if you want to get everything out of the game," you went another direction with that last statement. So which is it?
Are they only mandatory, because you want them, resulting in a semi-masochistic habit? Or do you feel they're mandatory, period, making the statement false?
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They are both necessary to get everything out of the game (story, etc) and to be the best you can be (HP/End buff, etc. whose to say the CoV buffs won't be as good or better than current CoH ones?)
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Okay people PVP is NOT I repeat NOT required in CoH/CoV. Yes there are badges in PVP zones, if you want them, sneak in there and get them, no debt from a PVP death. As far as accolades from those badges/plaques no one is certain of that yet, even so NO DEBT FROM PVP.
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Not everyone will be a double stealthed Stalker.
In PvP yes no debt, but In the PvP zones theres debt. Example:
I go in stealth/invis'd
I find plaque. I click it. Boom suddenly I get hit with an attack from Robo MMs w/ tactics running. Blap! I get Force Bolted with a sliver of life right into a group of 5 white/yellow/orange mobs.
I die.
I get debt.
People have and will do this. And often. Why? They're excuses will be: "Its a PvP zone, duh!" "I'm a villain. Its villainous to give you debt."
I'm not worried about PvP I'm worried about the jerks that will hit me for 70% HP then train mobs on me or push me into mobs to finish me off for debt.
All because, in order to aquire a full set of badges, just for the sake of collecting them, I was forced to enter a PvP zone.
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All because, in order to aquire a full set of badges, just for the sake of collecting them, I was forced to enter a PvP zone.
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Seriously? Take some responsibility for yourself. No one's forcing you to do anything. Decide what's more important to you: a badge and the possibility that an accolade is linked to it (which none are so far), or your fear of the risk of debt.
I mean, really. You're an adult, right? If I offer you a gold star badge, a candybar and a lottery ticket, and all you have to do is let an ape bugger you, will you do it? Probably not.
YOU decide. "Do I *need* this badge? Am I willing to take the risk of being killed, and possible getting debt?"
If you are, then have at it. If not, then stop complaining. There's no crime here.
More options are good, even if I don't use them.
Fewer options are bad.
Therefore, PvP is good. I like choices.
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And, while Jack says now that PvP will always be optional, a little over a year ago he was saying no PvP.
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FYI - I never, never, never said that there would be "no PvP." Never.
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Yup! PvP was mentioned way back in CoH beta as going in *sometime*.
Still here, even after all this time!
Personally I love the pvp zones esp warburg but i wish they had lvl 50 zones ao i didnt get auto ex'd
�The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
@Mr. Magnifico
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I really hope it can be avoided altogether after CoV launches, while still allowing me to have my PvE experience.
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-grumble, grumble-
I'm not a big fan of PvP. In fact, I find it really boring. In my personal experience PvP in online games means guys (and a few gals, but well over 90% guys) running around trying to prove their manhood by beating up on other guys. When you lose, they gloat, preen, condescend, and otherwise seek to humiliate you. When you win, they scream, holler, acuse you of cheating, and write out long complaints to GMs trying to get you banned for harrassment. 
Sorry, I don't get the fun aspect at all. For me, PvP is boring.
So it might come as a surprise to many of you that my favorite MMORPG is Lineage II, which is designed around FFA PvP (with "karma" to "control" griefing ). Not only that, but some of my best memories of Lineage II are related to PvP encounters. Of course, so are some of my worst.
Unfortunately, I was not able to participate in the CoH/CoV PvP beta event the other night. I live in Tokyo, so no beta invites for me, not even pre-order. As a result, I cannot say how fun it might or might not have been. All I have is the words people type in these forums and a couple screenshots. I will say this much, I am very happy that Stalkers do not appear to be as overpowered as I feared they might be. (Um, no, I am not "Pecos", and never even heard of him until I saw the poem in another thread. )
There is, however, one thing I would like to point out: the addition of CoV has always meant the addition of consensual PvP. Right from the very first press release.
That first press release and all that has followed is why I am here. For me, PvP is boring, but then, I've never once wanted to be a hero. CoV has been the only attraction Cryptic's products have had for me.
So I pre-ordered the day it became possible.
So I sit here impatiently waiting for my copy to arrive.
And so I intend to eventually wander into the PvP zones and see what CoV has to offer in that department as well.
It will probably be just as boring as PvP in Diablo, Quake, and Lineage II. Which means I will probably not bother entering the zones more than once each.
There is nothing wrong with those players who wish to avoid PvP. Got that? They are not weak, cowardly, ignorant, or "carebear". For some people PvP is boring, for others, it is exciting. Everything that has been offered up to date clearly states that no player will ever be required to engage in PvP in order to advance their game and enjoy their experience playing either a hero or a villain.
There is no reason to deny them that freedom.
There is no reason to assume it will change.
It is only natural that some rewards exist for winning at PvP. Those folks who consider themselves "competitive", like to believe their video game victories have meaning.
None of the stated rewards to date have been any more valuable than those available to PvE players, with one exception: stones of power for bases. Those are (as far as I know) only available by raiding other bases (which begs the question of how they will enter the game in the first place). However, any hero or villain group with a base is probably going to have some PvE only players and those players will still reap the rewards of the stones without engaging in PvP, unless their group leader requires it, which is not something Cryptic can be expected to control.
My long-winded point is this: Relax. If you don't enjoy PvP, you'll never have to experience it.
If you do enjoy PvP, then go right ahead, but please do not assume that someone who does not enjoy PvP is somehow beneath you. Neither enjoying PvP nor being bored by PvP grants a person greater status over another person who feels the opposite. It makes no difference at all. If you like it, great! If you don't like it, great!
So can we please stop arguing about it? PvP is here, it's in the game and it's been planned to be part of the game at least as long as CoV has, which probably means right from day one. If you don't want to engage in it, all current information indicates you won't ever be forced to.
The badges and accolades question is an interesting one. Perhaps, if you really want that particular badge or accolade, you can hire an escort or something. Time will tell, but I am certain something will get worked out.
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AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
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Those folks who consider themselves "competitive", like to believe their video game victories have meaning.
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That doesn't just go for competetive or PVP people, really. If video game victories mean nothing to you, then why play video games? A gamer, of any preference, should believe their game victories have meaning to them (not to others).
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Seriously? Take some responsibility for yourself. No one's forcing you to do anything. Decide what's more important to you: a badge and the possibility that an accolade is linked to it (which none are so far), or your fear of the risk of debt.
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The thing is there's not supposed to be debt as a result of PvP. But its extremely easy to get it from PvP in those zones and Jack has even condoned training mobs on a team to kill/weaken them as a valid tactic. So he's saying causing people debt is a valid PvP tactic.
I don't mind PvP its just one more group that will beat the tar out of my defenseless bubble defender. I'm used to that.
I'm saying in order to collect all the badges and possibly get a good accolade that will aid you in the game (there are accolades in CoV just none have been found atm) and to enjoy every story you MUST enter a PvP zone and in doing so consent to possibly being PK'd and even given forced debt (fly high over mobs, someone spots you, roots you, you drop, land an have 1 hp, mob KOs you an you get debt, or some other similar example)
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I mean, really. You're an adult, right? If I offer you a gold star badge, a candybar and a lottery ticket, and all you have to do is let an ape bugger you, will you do it? Probably not.
YOU decide. "Do I *need* this badge? Am I willing to take the risk of being killed, and possible getting debt?"
If you are, then have at it. If not, then stop complaining. There's no crime here.
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I'm just saying in atleast one sense PvP is mandatory and entering PvP zones will be mandatory for badge hounds and possibly people that want Accolade goodness.
Yeah its my choice whether I get the badges or not, but to some people its not a choice at all they HAVE to have them all.
I don't recall screaming that this must be changed (though the debt issues in PvP need to be looked at before people start debt griefing. I've mentioned on the CoV Beta forums that perhaps if a player does 50% or their attack causes 50% or more (root up high and drop for heavy damage) then mob KOs the victim it maybe could be debt free). Nor did I say move the badges out of PvP. All I said was that, in fact, PvP is mandatory to get everything out of the game.
Why this is a subject that requires questioning of my maturity or age or intelligence or whatever baffles me.
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Those folks who consider themselves "competitive", like to believe their video game victories have meaning.
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That doesn't just go for competetive or PVP people, really. If video game victories mean nothing to you, then why play video games? A gamer, of any preference, should believe their game victories have meaning to them (not to others).
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Well I dunno if he meant "meaningless" but maybe that at the end of the day you really have gained nothing. You beat someone of unknown age/skill in a game where its just as much about the random die roll as it is game knowledge or skill.
Oh, and I dunno about some people but most people I know play games for fun, not trophies or bragging rights. Victory means nothing to them if they had fun. Well no, victory is more like the icing on the "fun cake".
fun cake......funnel cake......mmmmm
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The thing is there's not supposed to be debt as a result of PvP.
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There is no debt as a result of PVP. There's debt, as a result of PVE in a PVP zone. Two different things. While you and I know he said that training mobs is a valid tactic, you still don't get the debt from PVP itself. Besides... if the situation is that bad, don't stick around.
"Only a fool mocks a tactical retreat."
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Well I dunno if he meant "meaningless" but maybe that at the end of the day you really have gained nothing.
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To some, winning is important. So they've gained happiness by winning. What makes you happy in life, be it a game or what have you, is always worthwhile and has meaning. The only people who've gained nothing are those who don't do what they want to.
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You beat someone of unknown age/skill in a game where its just as much about the random die roll as it is game knowledge or skill.
Oh, and I dunno about some people but most people I know play games for fun, not trophies or bragging rights.
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Who said anything about bragging rights or trophies? Winning is winning. Losing is losing. That's it. Competition is about knowing where you stand amongst your peers. If you win, awesome. You know that you don't have to worry about that person, just yet. If you lose, even better. You know what you have to do to succeed. Competition is about learning.
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There is no debt as a result of PVP. There's debt, as a result of PVE in a PVP zone. Two different things. While you and I know he said that training mobs is a valid tactic, you still don't get the debt from PVP itself. Besides... if the situation is that bad, don't stick around.
"Only a fool mocks a tactical retreat."
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There is debt as a result of PvP. If a player hits me for 99% damage. Then they sleep me or otherwise hold me and a mob taps me for that last 1% I get debt. And Mobs have ranged attack. If a player trains a high level group or large enough group theres a good chance I won't even have a chance to get away especially if the player injures or holds me so that the mobs can finish me. Would these mobs have attacked me or been able to KO me without that player training them or injuring/holding me? If yes then its PvE debt. If no then its PvP debt.
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If video game victories mean nothing to you, then why play video games?
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This is what I was addressing in regards to bragging rights.
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Who said anything about bragging rights or trophies? Winning is winning. Losing is losing. That's it.
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You can play a game and not get a "victory" and still enjoy it. Hell, some of the most enjoyable moments are when you know you've done your absolute best. Win OR Lose. Seeing Oil Slick light on fire after a fire blaster attacked. We got wiped after that. Lost the battle. But it was still wicked fun seeing that power cooperation working and to hear reactions from people that didn't know you could do that :-p
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That's it. Competition is about knowing where you stand amongst your peers.
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In real-life yeah. In a game not as much. In a PvP game like this its a matter of die rolls and who read the better guide on how to make a good PvP */* build. So someone who could never beat you at any other game could concievably beat you if the computer rolls the dice in a way that you miss twice in a row with a big attack or they hit twice in a row with a big hold, etc. Yeah there is some skill involved in MMORPG PvP in the traditional design but not so much that anyone is inherently better at the game than anyone else. It just means one build isn't built for PvP or one build is always gonna be outmatched (Invuln Tank vs FF Defender for example). Getting "better" isn't so much a matter of practice ( though that does help some) as it is a matter of going online, looking up "the PvP" build and respecing into that.
As long as we keep this civil I'm happy to argue my point and look at your point! 
Maybe eventually one of us will word our argument in a way that clicks with the other one :-p
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Those folks who consider themselves "competitive", like to believe their video game victories have meaning.
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That doesn't just go for competetive or PVP people, really. If video game victories mean nothing to you, then why play video games? A gamer, of any preference, should believe their game victories have meaning to them (not to others).
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Well in a nutshell I play games for entrainment, as a diversion from the problems of the day.
The in game victories and the in game debt mean very little to me because they arent real and have little impact on my life.
I will continue to play as long as I am having fun and will stop when I dont.
That being said I had a very good time on the PVP play test last Saturday night so at least give the zones a chance before you bail on them.
Xanthor Defender 50 Empathy/Electricity/Power,
Arctic Heat 42 Tanker Fire/Ice/Pyre Guardian
Xanthor Blaster 50 Fire/Electricity/Electric
Dr Victor Fury MM 50 Robo/Dark/Mace Freedom
Support Big Red Balls
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You can play a game and not get a "victory" and still enjoy it. Hell, some of the most enjoyable moments are when you know you've done your absolute best. Win OR Lose. Seeing Oil Slick light on fire after a fire blaster attacked. We got wiped after that. Lost the battle. But it was still wicked fun seeing that power cooperation working and to hear reactions from people that didn't know you could do that :-p
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That'd just be plain hilarious...
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In real-life yeah. In a game not as much. In a PvP game like this its a matter of die rolls and who read the better guide on how to make a good PvP */* build. So someone who could never beat you at any other game could concievably beat you if the computer rolls the dice in a way that you miss twice in a row with a big attack or they hit twice in a row with a big hold, etc.
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That part's true.
This comment:
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Those folks who consider themselves "competitive", like to believe their video game victories have meaning.
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..was moreso what I was talking about, in regards to victories holding meaning. Not just in MMOs, but on console games (online or offline), as well. If he doesn't believe a victory holds meaning, in any game, then why play them, ya know? A weak point, in regards to the general conversation, but it bugged me a bit.
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Getting "better" isn't so much a matter of practice ( though that does help some) as it is a matter of going online, looking up "the PvP" build and respecing into that.
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I still can't see why people look up PVP info. =/ What you take to PVP should always reflect one's personal playstyle and not someone else's. Silly people.
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As long as we keep this civil I'm happy to argue my point and look at your point! Maybe eventually one of us will word our argument in a way that clicks with the other one :-p
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You managed to bring up a good enough point about the PVP and PVE debt thing. It's not usually the case, but it was a good point, regardless.
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The in game victories and the in game debt mean very little to me because they arent real and have little impact on my life.
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I didn't mean in just MMOs. I mean in games, period. All games. PC, console, and what have you.
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Those folks who consider themselves "competitive", like to believe their video game victories have meaning.
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That doesn't just go for competetive or PVP people, really. If video game victories mean nothing to you, then why play video games? A gamer, of any preference, should believe their game victories have meaning to them (not to others).
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Um, yes, video game victories and/or successes mean nothing to me. They are no more meaningful than watching the latest episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I don't play to win. I play to play. I play to escape reality, relax, live in another world with different rules, and to participate in a ongoing fiction. I play games for the same reason I watch television. I prefer games because I can interact with the ongoing fiction rather just passively absorb it.
I play to play. Winning, losing, both are equally meaningless. I play to interact, which is why cowardly, unprovoked, griefing-style gameplay really makes me angry. It is rude, ill-mannered, and assumes my only purpose in the game is to provide another target.
I'm not a target. I'm a person. I invest my character with the same kind of emotional attachment I would invest the hero of any good story, regardless of the medium it is presented in. I don't exist in the game world to provide amusement for someone whose idea of success is to hide behind a keyboard half a world away and proclaim, "it's just a game!" every time they excercise the sadistic side of their personality.
Griefing objectifies the people the griefer shares the game world with. Griefing, as in unprovoked and cowardly attacks with no real purpose other than sadism, treats real players like NPCs.
I'm not talking about base raids, heroes attempting to "arrest" my villain, wars with rival villain groups, or any other form of straight-forward PvP. That kind of PvP can be enormously fun. Sadly, all it takes is one immature, egocentric player with too much free time and too little self-esteem to ruin a good PvP experience for hundreds of other players.
PvP isn't ruined by those who fight fairly and treat their opponents with respect. PvP is ruined by those who cheat, those who need to dominate in order to boost their flagging self-esteem, and those too cowardly to face the consequences of their actions.
PvP is ruined by children, especially children in adult bodies who really ought to know better.
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AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
================================================== ===
Once again, I meant games in general. Console, PC, etc. You can't "win" most MMOs, so why would I go on about MMO victories? You made a general statement, so I replied to the general statement.
It's sad that the people who got Ganked over and over again are blaming that on the Event or PvP itself. It's even sadder that so many of them will have given up entirely and never learn from their mistakes. A Hero is never defeated until he just stops trying.
For anyone whos willing to try it again, Keep in mind!: The Devs admitted that PvP isn't balanced for 1-on-1. You can't be a lone wolf out there unless you've been doing it for years and years(I have and I STILL get caught by a few of the cheesey tricks). If you want to experience it the right way, the fair way, then group with other Archetypes and stay near them at all times. Grouping isn't forced in PvE, but it almost always IS in PvP due to the circumstances.