Comparing just I4 burn to the new proposed I5 burn on test. Lvl 29 shields up and BA slotted 1 acc 1 dam 1 redux and 1 taunt. Tomb mish environment. In I4 setting I taunted one group 3 minions (white) and 1 lt (orange). (these are COT) took me a minute to defeat the lt with 9 points of damage per click. I5 same set up. This time it took 10 minutes at 4 points. In I4 the fear caused the mob to spead out in a straight line and return like wisel. I I5 it was more zig zagged sometimes even run through the patch and rarely returned. This required more retaunting with taunt and BA and a alot more maneuvering (then I4) because now they are to spread out so single taunt wont hit them all.
I keep taunt on auto which is a practice I will have to change if I continue to use burn. (I do turn this of if I am running with some one who uses knock back or scattering type powers) Because one time the target ran into another mob as taunt was going off . This could cause team wipe out .
In the current proposed form I will most likely respec out of burn and take it later in my tanks career. I can see using burn as a means to protect a team mate that finds themselves surrounded and taunts have been used up else were. The risk verses the reward for using burn isn't worth the power
If burn must be changed to bring it in line then keep the reduced damage and increased recharge time. But get rid of the fear. Fear just doesn't fit into what tanks are suppose to be. Aggro magnets
So basicalyl what you're saying is that fire tanks may have to think now? not just auto taunt and burn? I do agree that the +fear is too much but would you stand in a fire while someone beat on you? I know taunt blah blah blah flame flame blah blah. but fire tanks are EVERYWHERE! how many ice tanks do you see running around? 2? 10? Now there's a tank that has to think to play. Fire is all resistance, ice is all defense, stone is a good mix, and invulnerable is well, getting screwed. But tanks have had it WAAAAY to easy this whole game. When you can set an auto attack and walk away from your PC, that is overpowered. Not that fire tanks could do that.. but some could. So now fire tanks can't herd 20 mobs and burn through them in 3 minutes, cry for me. As an ice tank i HAVE to be on a team. I like the challenge, but i guess mindless burning is fun. Flame on.
Nerf unto others as you would have them nerf unto you.
[url="http://boards.cityofvillains.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=faq&Number=5935090&fpart=&PHPSESSID="]The Teqnikal way to build a raid base v1.0[/url]
there just going to nerf it.
All I ask is please alow a super respec and let me pick different primary/secondary for my characters.
Seems like every one of my mains is getting chopped at the knees and it is not any fun figuring out how to make them playable again.
With the I5 testing that I have done on test the fear was so great that I was already considering a build without burn. So, please put the anti-immobilization benifits in one of my other primary powers.
Well, let me see if I can put this into some perspective for dev.
Subscribers peaked at around 200,000 in July/August of '04. You are now at about 140,000...pretty much steady since March.
Doesn't this tell you anything? Doesn't this approach of constant nerf bats (no matter how small or large) leading to reduced membership show you it isn't working? Don't you have a boss that is upset that your membership is only slightly more than Toontown Online (an infantile MMRPG)? Don't you understand that the key to happiness on a game is CONTENT.
You asked for patience. We gave you patience. This is the result. One new zone and a few new powersets which should have been in update 4. No skill system that was promised (I guess the constructions sites will remain up for another 3 to 4 months). Update 6 will be out in November/December and that may or may not have the new skill system.
I'm tired. I'm tired at having to rethink my characters. I was happy with my fire tank. She was the only tank I could stand having since she was able to solo as well as team. I was happy with my regen scrapper since she was able to solo as well as team. The list continues. I no longer feel like putting in the effort to figure out how to rebuild my characters. Especially not for a new zone that most of them aren't eligible for anyways.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I was patient. Now you want to rearrange the powersets even more. With just a little more content. In other words, you have taken my trust and thrown it out the window.
Imagine taking the effort put into nerfing powers and put where it should be...into new content. Imagine if Jack spent his time on the skill system, it would be ready by now. Imagine having at least 2 more zones. Imagine having more dynamic team play. Imagine having more themed events like the Winter Lords. Imagine having villains having better AI or being controlled by dev every now and then. Imagine ADDING to CoH instead of taking away. Now you know where I wanted to be...and apparently it will not be found here anytime soon.
Your priorities are NOT on your customers. I gave you more than a year for you to prove me wrong. Instead I was proven wrong. It's time I move over to WoW. I did have some fun along the way, too bad you decided not to focus on the fun.
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But then why are they dumb enough to stand around and get shot? Electrocuted, burned with energy or for that matter watch someone fly out of the sky and knock out their boss and stand around and keep fighting. If we are saying the mobs are smart enough to run out of a burn patch then they should be smart enough to:
Only use ranged attacks against scrapers and tankers. The guy only has a sword. Take out his kneecaps.
Get out of line of site blasters. Hes going after you, dive behind the crates.
Spread out for cone attacks. He breaths fire, get on either side of him.
If mobs are too stupid to do any of these basic tactics then yes they should sit in the middle of a fire and say I think I can take him, before my gun melts.
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Why even question anymore? The Devs are using these nerfs as a cop out for not being able to give us any new content or intelligent AI.
They're desperate for excuses for why they're doing these nerfs without actually stating that the power is just 'too effective' for the poor AI we have in this game.
When I think about the AI in this game, sometimes I think back to games on Nintendo 64 like 007:Golden Eye, where the bad guys would hide behind crates and use simple tactics like that to avoid line of sight and harm.
My question is: If an N64 game has bad guys with AI like that, what is up with this game and villains that are about as bright as a broken light bulb?
Oh yeah. And my feedback on the burn change is this: The fear and the change in recharge craps up the power, but hey, at least you guys are consistent in crapping up everything in the game. So good job, Devs.
Darsonist just turned 18 last night. He is my first tanker, and I will admit he is a bit of FotM -- it seemed like Fire tanks are pretty popular, I thought I'd see what all the fuss is about. Now that he finally has Burn, I put him up against some clocks in Faultline. Since he has only DOs and TOs, with only his shields fully slotted, I went with -1 and -2 spawns, consisting of maybe 6 minions, 3-4 lts, and 1 boss. I was running solo.
I started with Live to establish a baseline: my understanding is that the I4 Fire tank primary can be considered sort of the new standard for tanker primaries, ie, Invuln was brought down to the level of Fire (albeit with slightly different numbers). The spawn on Live came a little too close to taking me down; my health was flashing for about 30 seconds, but didn't actually die, and I would've been perfectly fine with a single green inspiration, I think. Burn did cause some noticeable yo-yoing, but it didn't seem like many of the mobs actually left the Burn patch for more than a few ticks, thanks to Taunt and Auravokes. With the base recharge, I could lay a second patch just a few seconds after the first one expired. Pretty significant damage.
On Test, my health barely got down to yellow. This was probably a combination of luck (not Luck), slightly better strategic use of Healing Flames/Consume, and decreased boss/lt accuracy. Yo-yoing with Burn was far more dramatic than on Live: after about three ticks, the entire spawn would bolt, with only half turning back to me within five more ticks. It seemed like mobs that turned back to hit me again had a strong chance for bolting a second time, too, which was different from on Live. Damage was still significant for those mobs who stuck around throughout most of the patch's lifespan, but this was only maybe a quarter of the spawn, not the half I was getting on Live. Damage change was too small to notice at this level. Recharge time was significantly longer; it reminded me of my blaster's Snipe. I'm not sure what the new DoT BI is, but seeing as I4 Burn had something like a 12, a 30% damage reduction combined with more Fear and longer recharge means it's still a strong attack, but one to be used less indiscriminately (I wouldn't lay down a burn patch to help take out a single minion, for example).
Summary: Based on what I saw, I'm comfortable playing with my Fire tank; while my testing is limited, I don't have any preconceptions about how he 'should' perform, and what I saw seemed appropriate to the role of a tank at level 18. Burn's new damage and recharge seem just fine, as does its functionality as immobilization protection (this lasts long enough that it should easily be perma-able). The one concern I have is with the Fear effects on Burn: I'm okay with the idea, but I've read some other posts that scattered mobs may aggro teammates. For example, if I'm running point with my Kheldian friend and fire off Burn, most of the spawn will scatter, and a few will aggro her instead of me. This makes Burn *extremely* undesirable in a team setting.
Suggestion: If the Fear effect of Burn is to be kept at its current magnitude, and not a bug as rumour suggests, then it should cause mobs to want to move 30-40 feet away (out of the burn patch a few yards, but not too far), switch to ranged attacks, and aggro the tank even more. This keeps the Fear effect that makes Burn a tricky power to use, without making it a liability and a danger to one's teammates.
I obviously NEVER post here, so here's a wake-up call. Thanks for making my first (and possibly last) post decidedly a negative one.
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...You've ALREADY de-balled the tanker with the defense, taunt, and AE nerfs. Now you've gone from the jewels to the jugular on your Fire tanks?
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Agreed. In your quest for CoV balance and your PL/Herding tantrums you've significantly altered what a tank is supposed to be able to do in a group and solo. You do remember making comments to the effect that no one should be forced to group, right? You sure know how to take the fun and unique characteristics in a game over 1 year old and throw it right down the toilet. Nice job.
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...you STILL have no comment on:
1. Making missions repeatable only so many times.
2. Steadily reducing the experience for mobs in missions being repeated until there can be no more experience gained until mission completion.
3. Making aggro distance changes. Despite taunting powers, no mob will follow a herding hero greater than a set distance from his spawn point.
4. Making villain group buff modifiers . The more villains being herded, the harder they become to defeat. Give them leadership buffs or some random variety of powers they wouldn't normally possess alone.
5. Fixing the stacking code. Not buying your excuses. Only so many Freaks should fit in a dumpster. ...
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Yeah. Why is this? These are just SOME ideas that have been presented here by Iodine. There are others - also ignored. Everyone knows why you've included Burn with the cadre of other changes designed to nerf PLing/Herding. I'd like an explanation on why sweeping changes to the game like this were made because of a relatively small portion of your high level players choosing to PL.
I'd also like to know why you haven't finished the job with HOs. All of a sudden the huge, AT balance-affecting portion of your high level players just flooding the economy with HOs isn't worthy enough of mention or consideration in I5? Were you hoping these tankers and others would just forget that you shafted them out of a respec when you nerfed HOs? Did you think these folks would just delete them? The overwhelming majority of folks want HOs boosted to level 53, NOT made combinable. Your silence on the matter is just as insulting as the rest of the surgery being planned for I5 - Burn just being the latest slap in the face. By the way, just how IS that end game content coming now that you've supposedly balanced it?
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...There are other MMO fish in the sea. What makes yours the better catch? The comic? 
...
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This is really the bottom line here, isn't it? All the I5 changes bring the game supposedly down to the genre of all the other MMOs. They all have ATs/Classes that are balanced with the same powers, skills, and defenses. The only upside with your competition is the addition of loot, items, and housing. Take this away from CoH, and the only difference between CoH and the others will continue to be how much more shallow this one looks to become.
i have a lvl 17 fire/fire tank, but i never intended him to be a herd-master, so i wasn't worried about adhering to the cookie cutter flavor-of-the-moment guides we've all seen. fire tanks are unlike any other kind of tank i've played, and i always enjoyed the uniqueness of that character.
he got put aside as i explored the world of controllers and scrappers, but as he was my first ever character, i am unwilling to delete him...call it nostalgia factor, i guess.
i agree with everyone who has pointed out that burn was abused by the power-level herd people. we all know it. we all saw it. we all knew that sooner or later, the hammer would come down on that. instead of acting surprised that it took until issue 5 to fix, be GLAD that you had all that time to play it the way it was. you knew it was wrong, you knew it was over-powered, and you knew that just because it worked, didn't mean it was working as intended.
that being said, let me tell you how controllers felt when we read the I5 notes...SHOCK! ANGER! FEAR! DISMAY!
then a lot of us went to test and tried it out, and discovered it would be DIFFERENT...but not unplayable. strategies would need to be changed, builds would need slight adjusting (spectral terror may become more popular), but the changes looked worse in print, than they did in practice.
understand that the changes being made across the board will change the game for everyone. things won't be as easy as they once were, but that doesn't mean they'll be less fun.
however, i do have to say that adding a fear component to burn is unfair on its face. yes, an enemy shouldn't be expected to stand in flames, but neither should he be expected to stand for any other AoE power. if you want that level of "realism", then be realistic and leave a flame DoT on enemies caught in the initial burn. flames don't go out just because you run away. they should still be burning.
so, i say either remove the fear component from burn or play fair across the board and include fear in other AoE powers.
Unless I missed a memo, the role of a tank (as purported by Statesman himself) is to be a damage sponge. Soak up damage meant for the squishies.
Every tanker primary power should, in some way, help towards that end. I can see only 2 ways any given power could do this:
1) more protection (resistance/defense/status prot)
2) aggro capability
So where DID Burn fit into that line of thinking? It gave some status protection, and by doing damage, it annoyed the enemies enough to want to bash the tanker's skull in, despite the fact that it hurt to do so. OK, so maybe the damage was a little insane, but it still fit the tank AT.
Now where does Burn fit? Still the same status protection, but no aggro whatsoever, because of the fear effect. (And as a resulting consequence, very little damage output). Burn is now the anti-tank power. A fire tank uses it to remove aggro from himself, so he can watch the squishies all die horrible, painful deaths. How very noble of him.
Whatever else you say, or do...the fear effect has GOT to go.
Now comes the related question of why do we have multiple tanker primaries? Why not just one (insert favorite powerset here). As I understand it (and hope to be the case), its to create a bit of variety in the game so we don't have a bunch of cookie cutter builds running around. Fire gives up some of #1 above, in exchange for more damage output (and more damage should equate to more aggro). So he gives up #1 for more #2. Survivability is about the same, because of the additional damage. If you don't want tanks to have additional damage capability...fine, then we'll all go back to our cookie cutter non-fire builds. Less protection should equal more of something else, with that something else yielding equal tankability.
By squeezing us dry on resistances and defenses...you're only making us hold on to what little resistances/defenses we have even more. We're becoming more cookie-cutter than ever.
If burn was bad because of overkill damage, and abuse of such in conjunction with mass herding, then make some more rational change. Tanker powers to NOT need fear. Tone down the damage, but not the recharge (or at least, not by such insane amounts).
For herding problems, give us soft caps on # of people we can be attacked by, and still retain full defensive power. If I'm being attacked by 1 person with a sword, we can trade blows and parries for a while. if I'm being attacked by 20 people, I can parry some of the blows (while never getting my own attacks in), but there's no earthly way I'll be able to defend against all 20. Their numbers will overwhelm me quickly. <snarkiness> Unless I'm a superhero </snarkiness>.
[ QUOTE ]
... however, i do have to say that adding a fear component to burn is unfair on its face. yes, an enemy shouldn't be expected to stand in flames, but neither should he be expected to stand for any other AoE power. if you want that level of "realism", then be realistic and leave a flame DoT on enemies caught in the initial burn. flames don't go out just because you run away. they should still be burning.
so, i say either remove the fear component from burn or play fair across the board and include fear in other AoE powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with this assessment. It's bad enough the beating being given to the ATs across the board. If you're going to FINALLY change Burn ... do it RIGHT - not SPITE.
[ QUOTE ]
Darsonist just turned 18 last night. He is my first tanker, and I will admit he is a bit of FotM -- it seemed like Fire tanks are pretty popular, I thought I'd see what all the fuss is about. Now that he finally has Burn, I put him up against some clocks in Faultline. Since he has only DOs and TOs, with only his shields fully slotted, I went with -1 and -2 spawns, consisting of maybe 6 minions, 3-4 lts, and 1 boss. I was running solo.
I started with Live to establish a baseline: my understanding is that the I4 Fire tank primary can be considered sort of the new standard for tanker primaries, ie, Invuln was brought down to the level of Fire (albeit with slightly different numbers). The spawn on Live came a little too close to taking me down; my health was flashing for about 30 seconds, but didn't actually die, and I would've been perfectly fine with a single green inspiration, I think. Burn did cause some noticeable yo-yoing, but it didn't seem like many of the mobs actually left the Burn patch for more than a few ticks, thanks to Taunt and Auravokes. With the base recharge, I could lay a second patch just a few seconds after the first one expired. Pretty significant damage.
On Test, my health barely got down to yellow. This was probably a combination of luck (not Luck), slightly better strategic use of Healing Flames/Consume, and decreased boss/lt accuracy. Yo-yoing with Burn was far more dramatic than on Live: after about three ticks, the entire spawn would bolt, with only half turning back to me within five more ticks. It seemed like mobs that turned back to hit me again had a strong chance for bolting a second time, too, which was different from on Live. Damage was still significant for those mobs who stuck around throughout most of the patch's lifespan, but this was only maybe a quarter of the spawn, not the half I was getting on Live. Damage change was too small to notice at this level. Recharge time was significantly longer; it reminded me of my blaster's Snipe. I'm not sure what the new DoT BI is, but seeing as I4 Burn had something like a 12, a 30% damage reduction combined with more Fear and longer recharge means it's still a strong attack, but one to be used less indiscriminately (I wouldn't lay down a burn patch to help take out a single minion, for example).
Summary: Based on what I saw, I'm comfortable playing with my Fire tank; while my testing is limited, I don't have any preconceptions about how he 'should' perform, and what I saw seemed appropriate to the role of a tank at level 18. Burn's new damage and recharge seem just fine, as does its functionality as immobilization protection (this lasts long enough that it should easily be perma-able). The one concern I have is with the Fear effects on Burn: I'm okay with the idea, but I've read some other posts that scattered mobs may aggro teammates. For example, if I'm running point with my Kheldian friend and fire off Burn, most of the spawn will scatter, and a few will aggro her instead of me. This makes Burn *extremely* undesirable in a team setting.
Suggestion: If the Fear effect of Burn is to be kept at its current magnitude, and not a bug as rumour suggests, then it should cause mobs to want to move 30-40 feet away (out of the burn patch a few yards, but not too far), switch to ranged attacks, and aggro the tank even more. This keeps the Fear effect that makes Burn a tricky power to use, without making it a liability and a danger to one's teammates.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does any other AT (tank or scrapper) have to use 5 slots and perma hasten (with its deliterious effect on end which makes it even harder to play a F/F tank with the our best attacks using a lot of end) to get protection from ONE, count 'em one status affect. Your observations have little merit testing this power at lvl 18. I made my tank long before it was a 'Flavor of the Month', or CoH became City of Fire Tanks, When you get to the 30+ game and you have to tank a 8man mission with Freaks(and their constant stuns) and lay down a burn for protection(out of site of the mobs so your fellow teamates can't get one shotted by a Champion smasher and you have to just stand there because you have one attack you can use and it takes up 25% of your end and stamina hasn't been slotted beause you had to 6 slot hasten and 5 slot burn it just doesn't seem that fun and every time your protection drops you have to run away to drop another Burn to keep you proection up so your squishy teamates don't get one shotted by that Tank Smasher who just showed ..... ad infiniteum. ad nauseum. where is the fun? Show me a build at lvl 30 where can do all that AND contribute. MAybe with a perfectly constructed team you can.
I tried respecing my F/F tank last night without burn and id a decent job of both managing aggro and dealing damage(what a Fire/fire tanker is supposed to do with inadequate protection) I also found I am not able to takn for even a 5 man team with mission set on rugged.
YOU DEVS gave us a mission slider and then used it a criteria for removing lessening key powers and making formerly super heroes into girley-men and little girls.
I dub thee Statesmen, as the CoH Syndrome, killing all supers in a never ending quest to make no one special.
If people want to PL, let 'em, it doesn't hurt ME, it doesn't hurt YOU, and if some whiners have their nose out of joint because of this, they need to get a life. Or better yet, pay atention to their own game and not everyone elses. 
SynDrome ... I mean States 
has said it is no fun just standing there and clicking on one or or two attacks is no fun. Then what the hell is the early game all about. The boring repetitive missions?
One of the things I've enjoyed about CoH is the variety it provides. I have 3 characters that I play pretty regularly and each one provides a completely different experience.
When I want to group, I break out my dark defender. He is all about working with the group dynamic to try to keep everyone alive. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but it's always a challenge and it's fun.
I usually play my electric blaster solo. It's like a chess match. I have to use the environment, I have to use all of my powers and I have to anticipate the AI's next move. It takes forever to get through a mission, he's often knee-deep in debt and it's fun.
But sometimes I want to play checkers rather then chess. That's when the fire tank comes out to play. He has what you might call an unconventional build. No hasten, no acrobatics, no combat jumping. In fact, his only travel power is flight (it's a concept thing). I also play him mostly solo. No herding, no power leveling, I use him to collect badges and follow story arcs. He runs around like a mad man, Combustion, Burn and then all three Fire Swords until the boss or LTs are finished. By that time the minions that have not run away have dropped and he moves on. It dosn't require a lot of thought or strategy but it's fun.
Some sets are over powered... So what, it's fun.
Increased the recharge time of burn? To what?
Decreased the damage? To what?
Why?
It seems that from Issue 4, you guys have some idea about "balance". Well, gee, that's just fine.
Have all AT's have one small scale DoT.
Have all AT's have a way to self heal.
Have all AT's have a way to "hold/immobilize" a foe
Have all AT's have a way of sniping.
Have all AT's have a way of one shotting a bad guy, properly enhanced.
Wait, doesn't that make them all the same? Is that what you're after?
Why is it so important to you to encourage teaming? What are the task forces for?
I enjoy soloing. I like my burn. I like being able to help stupid blasters out of debt so they can finally get a defensive power like tough or weave, as some defense is better than none.
I just don't get why you have taken something that was never broken and trying to fix it.
I have played my invuln tank 160 hours, total. If you proceed with your suggested changes, you will have effectively, stolen my time from me. I invested that time in that toon to be something special. Why do I have to go on test server and try different things with him to see if I can make him special under your new rules? Why aren't you paying me for my time? WHY?
Because, apparently, I am an idiot. All of us are. We bought this game because of a penchant for heroics. We pay the monthly fee for various reasons.
Please tell me why you think reducing burns damage is going to make me want to play more insstead of less.
Please tell me why you think that lowering resistance to invuln is going to make me want to play the game more?
Are you not concerned with resubscriber rates?
I may not leave, but plenty others will. Sure, you will get new players. I just would think that you would want me to play and pay more, not less.
Why didn't you leave well enough alone? Why change anything? When being a fire tank was so uber, I was an empath defender. When being a regen scrapper was in, I was a blaster. We play what is fun for us. That will be different for different people. I ask you again, how do these changes improve your subscriber rates in the short run or in the long run?
Admittedly, some things are just too easy for a tank, given their high HP. So, why not let each hero have the same HP?
Why alter the set defining power?
How will that make me play more?
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
I'm no expert Fire tanker so my opinion holds little value but here's my .02 inf.
The climb from 1-18 was brutal... mind-numbingly so and I have a good 7 characters between 12-22 so I know the territory fairly well. My Fire/SS is based on a concept that worked well in Aberrant, Mutants and Masterminds and I even pulled it off in Freedom Force.... CoH, enh, close but not quite.
Burn, from my POV, turns out to be the one redeeming feature of a lukewarm set. Perhaps Burn does need to be toned down a bit but Fiery Aura isn't good enough to support a balanced Burn... and here's why...
<ul type="square"> [*]Blazing Aura: Nice power but brutally expensive. I had serious endurance issues getting to lvl 18. I had Consume but it wasn't enough. Slowly, it dawned on me that if I left BA off and used my secondary, endurance problems were greatly lessened. BA turned out to be really only good for herding greens. After getting Burn, BA is best used as a taunt aura for Burn... an expensive, possibly useless, taunt aura for Burn.[*] Status: I love the Tsoo; they're the one faction with the illusion of tactics. Playing tankers, I learned early on that it was the sound effects and not our offence that made us seemed titanic so I relished battling Ancestor Spirits but acknowledged that any spawn with 2 sorcerors was a battle I couldn't win; my dmg output couldn't overtake their healing abilities. No problem, I could accept it and it felt great when my DM/Reg cut a swath through Tsoo, regardless the number of sorcerors. My Fire tanker was another story. The tactic of punishing a minion to lure the sorcerors in doesn't work. I got seriously beat by the minion waiting for the sorc. If I didn't stick to just using BA, I was potentially exhausted before the sorc even showed because I needed Fire Shield, Plasma Shield and Combat Jumping to keep from getting trashed. When the sorceror did show up, his hurricane would throw me around like a rag doll or his hold would just crash over what little status protection I did have. New tactic for defeating sorcerors: chase them around like a rabid paparazzi... very fun 
[*]Nerfville: Burn has been the playtoy of the devs since beta and I don't expect it to change. I accept the fact that it'll get tweaked every 4-5 months from release until the day Statesman closes the doors on Cryptic permanently. Do keep in mind, however, that it is an attack in a primary set. This isn't about blasters do damage and tankers don't; this is about primaries vs secondaries. Blasters and scrappers do heavy damage because their primaries are damage sets. Burn has to be powerful because it's in a primary or else your power structure stops making sense. Second, Burn is a DoT. DoTs do more damage because they can be interrupted by a mob leaving the hot zone or the hero being defeated. Instead of a hard hitter like Energy Transfer which unloads huge damage instantly, Burn takes a good 5-6 seconds to unleash its full damage... that's a flaw so let's look at the math here... primary attack - 4 flaws (dot, point-blank, pet, fear) = heavy aoe. With 4 flaws, Burn stands a strong chance of becoming one of those powers no one takes *cough* temperature protection *cough*. Don't toy with Burn too much, you've already made it too delicate.[/list]
Guess that's it.
In summary, the fun and utility of Fiery Aura is, IMHO, an illusion. The reasons people take it are for concept or Burn. Yes, that is a problem. It does mean that Burn is likely overpowered but it also means that Fiery Aura has no real merits beyond Burn. Fix that!
Thank you 
It's funny. About 2 years ago I left Everquest. I had played since the first month of launch, and averaged about 40 hours a week playtime. The game was intoxicating to me as I leveled characters to 50 (got there 3 times in 4 years along with 150 other lower leveled alts). I played the high-level game day in and day out. The quests, the camping, the raids, the pain. I loved every second of it. I still miss sitting in the Kelethin newbie zone, chatting on the newbie log in Nektulous Forest, waiting for the Goblin Preacher to spawn in Permafrost, and the SMR to drop in Lower Guk. For about 2 years, the game was heaven. I paid my accounts, bought the expansions, and logged on a lot. In the beginning, more of us oldtime Pen-and-paper RPGers played EQ than little kids. Kids/teens didn't get the roleplay aspect of the game. The desire to learn skills and develop a character was alien to them. All they saw was level 50 as a holy grail they needed to reach, so that they could leave the game saying they "beat" it. But, as more kids began to play the game, the more player whining began to become an issue. Kids don't mind an occassional challenge, but they sure as hell don't want to play your game for a month, let alone 2-5 years. So, the whiners whined and Sony responded. And EQ has become a daycare center for teens with arrogance issues. No amount of skills, weapons or graphics changes could make me go back to that hell hole.
So I left EQ, and went to Neverwinter Nights.
Psychological note to game developers taken from real life: If a terrorist sees that he can intimidate you by his actions, he will never stop terrorizing you. It's not in his best interest. Hence, when game-playing whiners realize that whining can get changes made, they whine even louder. It's not in their best interest to stay quiet.
International governments know giving into terrorists doesn't work. So why do so many game developers acquiesce to the most vocal complainers? Since when do THEY have more rights to decide what direction the game should go rather than the happy less vocal crowd?
Anyway...
In Neverwinter Nights, I developed mob AI scripts, tilesets, expansion packs, persistent world maintenance scripts and worlds themselves (all under the Lodrezzon name too, so you can see I'm not just another wanna-be!). For a long while, I had the highest rated material in the entire NWN community of 400,000 people. People loved the material I made and the effort I spent making things MORE amazing than Bioware had released. There were some complaints that my files were too large for weaker comps to handle, or that they took too long to download by way of modem. I knew what I wanted to do: To create the BEST material that COULD be created for that game engine. I can tell you now, by giving people more rather than less, the thankful letters and praise I received far outweighed the complaints I received. I never comprimised giving people what they wanted, no matter what the complainers said. But then the whiners began e-mailing. People from other community development teams sent me e-mail viruses and left horribly disparaging comments on my work at various forums for nothing else than jealousy's sake. After 9 months of development work, I left. The fun was out of the game for me.
I can only assume that people who hate the herding capabilities of fire tanks have been sending you e-mail viruses too. But then again, I wasn't paid to provide content for NWN. I spent 1500 hours a year doing it for free, because I loved making content for people to enjoy. If I was paid to do it, I'd probably still be doing it now...
So I moved to CoH.
The beginning was amazing. I had no clue what to do, but I knew I loved controllers. I played for months on end, 60-80 hours a week sometimes, trying to solo-level these hopeless characters. After 4 months of trying to get above level 22 without success, I switched to blasters. I finally got to 32 with my blasters before the brick wall of unattainable xp/per level stopped me cold in my tracks. In a last ditch effort to try to find something I could solo-level with myself, I tried the fire tank. By the time I hit 34, I was deep in love with the class. I was finally able to solo-play or team-play and still get decent xp either way. As soon as I hit 50, my fire tank was retired and I switched back to controllers with a newfound energy for the game. Switching to the fun of a fire tank motivated me to play 9 more months on CoH, rather than quit and play WoW or Lineage 2.
And now with the "class balancing" of tanks and controllers comming with i5, CoH takes that inevitable turn towards demise that came with Sony's release of the "Planes of Power" for EQ. Like so many other games beforehand, the loud, screaming naysayer is the one the devs listen to, and the average long term customer is left with only his memories of what used to be fun.
You can't let someone gain enjoyment for a year by playing a character and then take that enjoyment away without reprisal.
Unlike many here, I have programmed mob AI for MMOs. I know about the extra cpu tasking that comes from adding AI decision lines. I was always able to code in specific ways to create lifelike responses with my AI that were exteremely cpu efficient. I work from home and never worked for a developer, but the lack of skill in AI scripting I've seen in your dev team is astonishing. You need better people working for you if you can't address the valid issues people have been mentioning for over a year now. Your model and animation team is fantastic. The idea behind the costume design system rivals even my own in NWN with so many options/per body slot. And I understand how much time it takes to make this content. But you have a team; I'm just one person.
Yes, I am only one person, but since you are listening to the whiners, then listen to me....
People do not want to play a game where every few months your character becomes less powerful and less fun than what it used to be. I've run 2 companys in my life. The first one required pay cutbacks twice in 2 years due to downturns in the economy. Each time, 1/2 of my workforce left (about 30 people). Once people are paid a certain amount of money to do a certain job, they don't want to do the same job for less money. The same issue applys here. People don't want to have to try to level using less powerful, less fun characters than what they have already used.
JACK:The issue isn't that each mission needs to be such a major challenge. The missions are forgettable. The GOAL of CoH is getting to 50. Period. Despite your analogy of playing a handheld game that required 12 resets to beat a certain boss, I can swear to god that I have that right now with my fire tank. I have a 50 fire/ice tank with Hami-o's that has been fighting level 53 AVs. Some of those fights last 30-45 minutes with a full team - just for the AV! When I'm done, I'm ready for a cigarette and I don't even smoke! You're comparing a hand held video game to an MMO that requires HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of missions to reach level 50. In your comparison Jack, you should have sequential trials that need to be beaten to continue playing your character to a higher level. Something like: If you don't pass the cavern of transcendence trial, you can't go onto level 16. I'd love that! And with the difficulty of trials combined with the auto-exemping system you have in place, people would be forced to work to grow their characters. No PLING through those bad boys. But you can't compare one mission and one boss over the life of a character, when you may have to do 15-25 missions a day to get enough xp to level. You're looking at the small picture, when you should be looking at the bigger one.
My point. The fun is in WHAT we CAN do, not in what we can't. Worse off, once we've been able to do something, we will always regret not being able to do that thing ever again. There are better ways to create a solid customer base for this game, new or existing, and if upper level management won't come up with a creative solution, then the stockholders in NcSoft/Cryptic should voice their opinion quickly and install new management.
I truly enjoy MMOs, and CoH is the best MMO out there RIGHT NOW. If you REALLY care about the game, don't just make it the same as every other MMO that is already out there. Be super! It's not too late! A superhero knows it's better to save one saint rather than 100 sinners.
Let WoW be the land of the sinners, and save CoH for the saints.
I have a lvl 37 fire tanker. By far my favorite toon to play on CoH. I built my tank around Burn and I am not happy with this change. I'm not a numbers kind of guy but trying it out on test showed me that my tanker will soon be collecting dust as I will retire him. If this is a change b/c of the powerlvling that happens often in CoH then might I suggest making Peregine Island a hazard zone. That wouldn't solve the problem but would hack greatly at the powerlvling. Burn makes my tanker fun to play...now when these changes take place I know I won't enjoy it. So its either making another toon or just dropping CoH.
Copied my 39th lvl F/F to test to see the changes. Burn is now totally useless as the weapon it is supposed to be. I am a Fire tank, I have less protection, I am supposed to ""arrest" the MOBs before they finish me off. If this is your direction, then the ENTIRE Fire set needs to be redone and Burn removed! It will become another defense only tank set and should gain another shield or two which add in the resistances needed and these should not be toggles. This is not why I took the "offensive" tank primary.
Every MOB ran each time I used Burn. This was even to +2 level minions, LTs and Bosses. EVERY MOB RAN out of the Burn patch and switched to ranged attacks! This is not acceptable. This is not what I created a Fire tank to do. If "herding" or some other reason is why you are doing this, then rethink. You are destroying the reason to BE a Fire tank. Can I change how I fight, yes. Should I be FORCED to change, no.
There needs to be a much lest drastic way to accomplish the goals without destroying the Fire tank. And the current changes to Burn will do exactly that, destroy the Fire tank. It makes the reason to be a Fire tank meaningless. And now you are left with just the secondary attacks. Not what the Fire tank was touted to be or do.
If you want to keep the fear effect in Burn, fine; but change how burn does damage to make it so any MOB that enters the burn patch, takes the full amount of damage remaining to be done from the patch. Further, if the fear is strong enough to make them run and ignore my taunt, the MOBs should not agro on ANYONE in the group for quite some time!
As to the damage changes so far in I4 and upcoming I5, you are going overboard. As to the fear effect, that is not needed. As to the super long recharge, not needed again.
Want to change the power, then make two changes, up the Enduence cost (from 22.5 to 30) and make it contunue to affect the MOBs (DoT) after they leave the patch (put the damage back the way it was). It is a very powerfull attack with a low endurence cost. That low endurence cost is why it is used so much compared to other attacks. Want the fear effect (and I think this is bad for playability reasons) then make the fear continue past when the MOB exits the Burn patch. In any case, if the fear is so great, the MOB should not be attacking anyone after exiting the Burn patch for a while. Say, add a "Stop Drop and Roll" animation to all that leave the Burn patch until the DoT is complete. Once they get back up, then taunting should work again normally. The MOBs should even be predisposed to attacking (at melee range) the tanker as well, hey he did just burn them badly. Adding a 25% increase to recharge time would not impact playability too much. There, that was simple.
The old arguement of offensive taking teh place of defense does not work anymore.
Fire tanks are right up there at teh top in I5. I wish they would give complete status resist but other than that, fire is tough than INV or ice all around.
They do need to "do" something for fire tanks right now. IMM resist in fire shield and KB resist in Plamsa would be a great start.
GF
Wow, I just don't know what to say. Most of you have already said it for me. I finally found a character that I really liked. My main is a level 50 fire/fire blaster and I decided to make a fire/fire tank as my new main alt. I love her. I love being able to take damage and deal some out at the same time. However, it still takes a while to kill guys and I still get hurt. That's why I have inspirations. But you guys (devs) are just so nerf happy this issue, I can't stand it. I was looking forward to this issue - new power sets, new zones. But I have now learned to fear the updates. Each one gets worse and worse, with more and more nerfs that make this game less fun. There are new people subscribing all the time, and there are people (such as my boyfriend and myself) who have been playing this game since the beginning. Don't you think we're here for a reason? Why must things constantly change? I find the game fun and challenging already. Why do we all need to play the way you (devs) see fit? You should instead be catering to the wishes of the long term loyal subscribers who stay because they like the game the way it is. You will be losing many, many of us if these changes (a lot of the nerfs, not just burn) go live. I am extremely dissapointed in you, devs.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it...
Got to admit that Lodrezzon's post made me think.
I think that he hit the nail on the head as far as whining and people playing the game are concerned. People will never be happy playing characters that are less powerful than they were a month ago, especially in an environment where the reason some people play MMOs is the sense of achievement of putting in the hours to make your character MORE powerful over the course of months and years. The constant changes to tanks sure have made me think twice about picking up my inv tank recently (At the same time I also concede that many changes are going to be needed in the future if there is any hope in establishing a fun pvp environment in COV - nerfs will continue to be a bitter pill to swallow however.)
As for the fire tanks changes, I think most would recognise that burn was too powerful. Everyone in my SG who has a fire tank has got him to 50. One guy started one simply because he wanted to experience playing a Peace Bringer and his lvl 40 odd controller was taking too long. I for one welcome the change to this power, but I feel it should have been made in conjunction with a complete over-haul of the set. The huge offence of burn made the limitations of the rest of the set acceptable, without burn those limitations are likely to come to the fore very quickly. I got my fire tank to 30 and got bored. Why? Because jumping from group to group and simply typing '1' for taunt and '2' for burn' got boring. I also didn't like that the whole set was built around one power - worse still a power that involved dropping a bit of fire on the floor. If it was up to me, blazing aura would do more damage and would be the premier power in the set, after all you are on fire....yet it's so poor that most people skip it. If that power had some work and the rest of the set maby had some resistances in it, you might get flying fire tanks or super speed fire tanks or teleporting fire tanks. Instead, because of the weaknesses of the set and it's reliance on power pools and one power (burn) we just have a lot of fire tanks with super jump and acrobatics.
Verdict: Everyone knew burn needed some work, but so does the rest of the set.
*Sniff* Lodrezzon....I Love You Man! *Sniff*
Well Met! WELL MET!!!!
Here's my Story. Roughly two weeks ago I heard about the I5 Changes and made a Fire/ Ice tank to try out this whole herding phenom before it was extinct forever. Some of you on Freedom have seen him around. His name is 2bnerfed.
Right off the bat (even using BA as my main attack), I was plesantly suprised at the speed of which I could actually lvl. I prefer to solo and this was a gift. I thought to myself wow a charcter that still in'st gimped to the slogging through months of grind just to get to some higher lvl stuff! My biggest complaint with this game (the reason i quite the first time) was that right after the release , xp got scaled back to where it was taking at least twice as long to lvl a charcter (sometimes more depending on AT) as it did during the beta. Well needless to say my new Fire/Ice tanker got to lvl 32 in about 2 weeks (about 100 hours +/- alot of goofing off time). Largly in part to do with burn. And you know what the amazing part is? I had fun doing it. Yes thats right I said it. FUN. One of the main reasons I had fun was that I got to take little breaks between the grind to try out a new power, or play with new slots, at least once or twice a day.
I personally feel that while everyone cries that the fire tank is lvling Too fast, I think every charcter should be lvling on par with the current speed of the fire tank. This was the first charcter I've played in a long time that I have truly enjoyed playing the while time thru, since I rejoined a few months ago. I rejoined because a good friend of mine is playing and I figured why not I'll try and give this game another shot. Every single character I have made up until the fire tank (and thats alot of alts!) has eventually gotten stale. The main reason they got stale is because I cannot stand waiting so long between powers. Grind only lasts so much before you need somthing to get excited about. Other charcters just lvl too slow for me I guess. I have many concepts of charcters that I would love to play if it was'nt for having to grind it out for a month before they start getting to any kind of exciting power set. Not to mention that there really only seems to be a small handfull of missions in the entire game! Most of them are just re-tooled and flashed up a bit to give some apperance of change but it's all the same mission. If the content was more exciting during the early end of the game, the grind getting to the higher lvl's might not be so unbareable.
By now your probaboly thinking whats the point? Well the point is that it seems in order to fix anything, the Devs are just all to happy to take the NO TALENT, NO BRAINER, QUICK FIX, approch to everything. "Nerf anything the Moves to fast!", "Hell with it Nerf everything, then will sort it out later.'. Theres no thought involved here. I think they forget that were paying them a monthly fee to keep this game on track because development is deffinatly not where the Millions of dollars every month are going. (yes millions per month , you do the math!)
The other obsurdity is the test server. Not ONLY did many people have to pay $10 (or whatever) for the Pre-order copy to test the game for these guys during the beta, but then we are paying a monthly fee to continue doing what most companies would'nt dare expect of their customers. Test the game for them. Then they have the nerve to put up a suggestions and development forum, for which they ask for feedback, which they obviously never read. This is to make us feel like were doing somthing as a community to help make this company a ton of cash. If your gona ask for feedback, then respond to it, not only in word but in practice. Other wise don't waste our time.
Now about Burn. Why is it a problem for an AT to have a power that actually works? They said it themselves, Fire/ * tanks get more dmg primarys because their deffence is not up to par with the rest of the sets. So now because you nerf the rest of the Def powers on other set's you have to nerf the only real dmg potential that a fire/ice tank has? Ok fine.
The lets talk about the fundimental part of being a tank. My job in a party as a tank is to soak up dmg by pulling agro of the rest of the squisher party members long enough for them to take them down. Doesn't sound like the I5 plan does it?
What are we to do? And more importantly why are you doing this?
Bottom line is this. We pay a monthly fee to have fun. If you take the fun away then why are we paying you? Doesnt sound like were going to anymore with this attiude. I know Jack, You don't care. I read the little note too about how we can all easily be replaced. "Players come and Players go, thats the nature of MMo's". Keep up that attitude and your job will be the next thing to be replaced!
I don't have a fire tank character, though many of my friends do. I have nothing intelligent to say on the topic of fire tanks. That being the case, I'd like to use my one post in this topic to say ... outstanding post, Lodrezzon. If only they'd listen.
Issue 5 is killing my sg. The nerfs to tanks in general and burn in particular are only a few of the reasons. For me, it's the freakish remodeling of Controllers into something ... not controlly. Whatever the case, more and more of us are not hooked anymore. We're drifting away from the City, and it's probably too late to rescue the sg at this point. I wanted to get my Inv tank from 35 to 40 before I5, but I find I'm logging less and less every evening knowing what's on the way. It just doesn't seem as worthwhile. Ah well. Enough angst for now.
-FCM
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
I took Super-Hero, my level 50 Fire/Ice tanker on test today.
I am not specialized for herding, as i do not have the fighting pool or blazing aura.
Ouch.
Guys, you overdid it. Fear + recharge + damage? Too much, the power now goes into the "skip it" bin.
I did a Kora fruit mission (btw invisible Kora glowies are back). My normal attack pattern was all screwed, as Burn was always down. Now, since i'm Ice, i currently have the Ice Patch, and 2 holds, so i could at least hold 2 mobs into the fire. But even then, it wasent up enough to warrent its use.
I tried slotting for recharge, and went 3 dmg 3 recharge. Burn was up more often , but then the damage was ridiculous (4 dmg a tick on an orange). Since even a double taunted enemy fled burn after a few ticks, i barely dented anyone except the guys i held.
I quickly found out that my character was a lot more efficient if i didn't use burn!! because i saved on the chasing around.
I tried to pair a controller. Maybe with his holds, then i could burn stuff.
But either:
Burn was never up enough and i ended up killing with my Ice Sword...
or
Burn didn't do enough damage and i ended up killing with my Ice Sword...
So basically, bottom line is, i would not recommend burn to be included in a classic attack cycle. It's damage and recharge just aren't worth it, and that's 6-slotted with perma-haste.
Not only that, but i would actually avoid it's use because of the scattering effect.
So another attack from the secondary pool would actually benefit more, since at least you can taunt with it.
So now, that means, after the plasma shiled (lvl 14 power) there is no point of Fiery Armor Set. Burn-FE-RoTP all are bad powers, making this the WORST of all the game's power set, Can you name another set where the last 3 powers are skip-overs???