Let's say a stranger dangles a $1000 dollar bill in your face.
Now he does it to twenty other people.
Most of you are going to beat him up and run off with the cash.
Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game. Want proof?
Take a look at many of the FPS games out there. Lots of them have map glitches that are easy to exploit. Notice how people continually exploit them? They don't STOP playing the game when the glitch gets fixed and they don't NOT buy a game just because it LACKS map glitches. But it never fails... the easier the glitch is to reproduce, the more people will take advantage of it.
Remove the glitch, you remove the incentive. But just because a map is patched, people aren't going to stop playing the game.
Remove the powerleveling methods, you remove the drive. But just because powerleveling is gone, people aren't going to be so quick to ditch the game itself. There's a lot more to this game than just powerleveling to 50.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, Liberty, many of these people never even gave the game a chance. Newbies, fresh level 1s who JUST got the game, have sent tells to me for powerleveling. Not even wanting to try the game is just sad. The devs give you all this content and all they want to do is blow through most of it. While that's fine that they do, they are going to get bored because they missed the good parts of the game. They are going to suck because they lack experience in the game. They are also going to become level 50 whiners asking for more content.
[/ QUOTE ]
Another one I haven't seen yet. Do pwlvlers become lvl 50 whiners asking for more content? Do they really? Every one I've met seems to be having a great time. They all seem to know their character inside and out too.
Is it "sad"? Probably...but again....so what? They are all supposed to play like I do or they are "wrong"?
This isn't like the stupid Hami farming I've seen in which the upcoming PvP is being directly tied to it and making it mandatory. I don't HAVE to pwlvl.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some do, some don't.
As far as the Genius of the power levellers scheme.. its still effective in this effect:
3 man team, lvl 50, lvl 45, lvl 2. The lvl 2 is sk'd to the lvl 45. The lvl 2 then stays 90yds from the lvl 45. The lvl 50 then stays 90yds from the lvl 2 in the OPPOSITE direction. The lvl 45 and the lvl 50 both begin killing. The lvl 2 is getting exp for botht he lvl 45's kills and the level 50's kills. The lvl 45 gets only the xp for the kills he does and same with the 50.
This could then be made even further effective by adding 2 more level 50's killing in other directions and making a perimeter with a 90yd radius from the lvl 2. 4 players getting xp for one character who's standing safely someplace, either in a dumpster, behind a wall, or many other places. When they hit lvl 20 they simply pick up phase shift and do it anywhere standing completely safe while these 4 players run about killing enmasse.
w00t Radio
Dwimble,
Yes, I was trying to remember what change it was that cleared the trains, and that was definitely it. And I really think most of those people were simply AFK. There was definitely more PL going on then, but also more just plain parked heroes. And together, they definitely were a problem.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
JuppaCo, I know why Statesman issued these changes. I know what form of powerleveling it was meant to kill. However, this is still yet another form of powerleveling now stopped by the same change, possibly as attrition. Are you getting more experience doing it this way than not? Yes? Then it's powerleveling because you're taking advantage (read:exploiting) of the game mechanics to get an overall increase in your experience. Sure, they may get decreased XP for their kills, but adding up their kills PLUS the other half of the team's kills nets you more experience than just having half a team. People confirm this. They state that they do this with the very intent to get MORE experience by doing this.
[/ QUOTE ]
#1) You admit that your definition is more intense than States' definition. Therefore, you cannot consider it an upside for the solution to effect this kind of play. At best, it is an acceptable side-effect.
An analogy: If your analgesic also makes people horny, that's still a side effect. For those who like to be horny it's a pleasant side-effect. But doctors will still prescribe an analgesic without that side-effect before prescribing yours. Why? Because thier drug does what is intended and ONLY what is intended.
#2) I reject your definition of PLing and exploiting. I would further posit that most people would reject your definition. "Taking advantage of the game mechanics to get an overall increase in your XP" is a VERY broad definition, and would include things like choosing to combat villians whose damage type is one you have resistance to. A more fair definition would be: "Taking advantage of the game mechanics to get an overall increase in your XP IN A WAY THE DEVS DID NOT INTEND OR DO NOT CONDONE".
Exploits like TF farming and "tagging" MOBs (doing slight damage and running so you can get XP when someone else finishes them) would still be considered "exploits" under my definition as well as yours, but choosing to get fire/ice protection and then taking on frostfire would also exploit under your definition, not under mine.
I'm impressed. The changes haven't even made it to Test and it's the WORSE THING TO HAVE EVER HAPPENED.
I'm not saying people don't have a right to complain about changes they haven't played with yet. I'm just saying more people will listen to you when you start a complaint with -"So I was playing on Test with the new exp changes and such-and-such happened."
I never gave a definition, like you. There's no simple way to sum up powerleveling that takes into account every last instance of it. You assume too much.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm impressed. The changes haven't even made it to Test and it's the WORSE THING TO HAVE EVER HAPPENED.
I'm not saying people don't have a right to complain about changes they haven't played with yet. I'm just saying more people will listen to you when you start a complaint with -"So I was playing on Test with the new exp changes and such-and-such happened."
[/ QUOTE ]
Thing is Choice, unlike power changes.. this is simple logic of known gameplay.
Its not about if the range of 300 feet will allow groups to effectively hunt together in one area..
Its about the side affects and all the situations that were not considered when this entire xp range was put into place on the test server. We're not debating the change from 200 to 300 feet. We're debating that this whole xp range change should never have been implemented, there's no need for it in the game. It solves nothing.
w00t Radio
[ QUOTE ]
I'm impressed. The changes haven't even made it to Test and it's the WORSE THING TO HAVE EVER HAPPENED.
I'm not saying people don't have a right to complain about changes they haven't played with yet. I'm just saying more people will listen to you when you start a complaint with -"So I was playing on Test with the new exp changes and such-and-such happened."
[/ QUOTE ]
Read the previous thread. Many did.
Also, I don't need to actually drive to know that the removal of streetlamps and a law making it illegal to use headlights might have some negative consequences, especially for those who drive at night. If I can see those before I even try it, I don't feel bad sharing those thoughts before I try it.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes Dwimble and if this didn't affect all of our gameplay then people wouldn't not be against this sort of change. However, any change that affects everyone should not be implemented to effect change that would only cosmetically fix a problem.
_
Its not JUST power levellers that sit at the trams, anyone who wants to go afk will sit there as well...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I never said it was a good idea or that I agreed with it...I was merely explaining the changes because many people still don't understand them.
Also, it isn't meant to stop people from sitting at the tram chatting or AFK. It's meant to stop people from getting XPs while sitting at the Tram chatting or AFK. And, as I said in my post, the unfortunate side effect is that it will also affect others from time to time who are not engaging in the behavior it is designed to hinder...and that's not good. That's why I hope the devs will continue to consider it and come up with a more elegant solution. Even if they implement this version of it in I4, I hope they'll make changes to it later.
Dwimble
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say a stranger dangles a $1000 dollar bill in your face.
Now he does it to twenty other people.
Most of you are going to beat him up and run off with the cash.
Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game. Want proof?
Take a look at many of the FPS games out there. Lots of them have map glitches that are easy to exploit. Notice how people continually exploit them? They don't STOP playing the game when the glitch gets fixed and they don't NOT buy a game just because it LACKS map glitches. But it never fails... the easier the glitch is to reproduce, the more people will take advantage of it.
Remove the glitch, you remove the incentive. But just because a map is patched, people aren't going to stop playing the game.
Remove the powerleveling methods, you remove the drive. But just because powerleveling is gone, people aren't going to be so quick to ditch the game itself. There's a lot more to this game than just powerleveling to 50.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm still not seeing the effect on me. A person powerleveling to 50 effects me in what way? Someone exploiting a map glitch effects me how? Because it "bothers" me or I think they are playing "wrong"? 
Remove all the powerleveling and the game gets better for me? How? Because the developers spent all that time getting rid of the nasty PL's instead of giving me something like the Flashback feature?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes Dwimble and if this didn't affect all of our gameplay then people wouldn't not be against this sort of change. However, any change that affects everyone should not be implemented to effect change that would only cosmetically fix a problem.
_
Its not JUST power levellers that sit at the trams, anyone who wants to go afk will sit there as well...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I never said it was a good idea or that I agreed with it...I was merely explaining the changes because many people still don't understand them.
Also, it isn't meant to stop people from sitting at the tram chatting or AFK. It's meant to stop people from getting XPs while sitting at the Tram chatting or AFK. And, as I said in my post, the unfortunate side effect is that it will also affect others from time to time who are not engaging in the behavior it is designed to hinder...and that's not good. That's why I hope the devs will continue to consider it and come up with a more elegant solution. Even if they implement this version of it in I4, I hope they'll make changes to it later.
Dwimble
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehe I know I know..
I equate this change to the Boss XP/HP change of Issue 3.. it was a huge mistake, they didn't listen to the posts telling them this until AFTER it went live and they realized that next to no one who actually needed Respec could complete it, soloing missions became a nightmare and large 8 man missions also became a nightmare.
We're seeing the same thing all over again. This change is being implemented to target a small group and will have consequences far reaching beyond its intent. This is the ONLY reason I'm posting so much on this topic. Its a mistake and if it makes it to live it'll make playing the game far less enjoyable for weeks possibly more..
w00t Radio
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say a stranger dangles a $1000 dollar bill in your face.
Now he does it to twenty other people.
Most of you are going to beat him up and run off with the cash.
Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game. Want proof?
Take a look at many of the FPS games out there. Lots of them have map glitches that are easy to exploit. Notice how people continually exploit them? They don't STOP playing the game when the glitch gets fixed and they don't NOT buy a game just because it LACKS map glitches. But it never fails... the easier the glitch is to reproduce, the more people will take advantage of it.
Remove the glitch, you remove the incentive. But just because a map is patched, people aren't going to stop playing the game.
Remove the powerleveling methods, you remove the drive. But just because powerleveling is gone, people aren't going to be so quick to ditch the game itself. There's a lot more to this game than just powerleveling to 50.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm still not seeing the effect on me. A person powerleveling to 50 effects me in what way? Someone exploiting a map glitch effects me how? Because it "bothers" me or I think they are playing "wrong"?
Remove all the powerleveling and the game gets better for me? How? Because the developers spent all that time getting rid of the nasty PL's instead of giving me something like the Flashback feature?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do I keep dealing with these damn lawyers?
I never gave ANY evidence in that statement regarding ANY stance on how powerleveling affects YOU. THAT WAS NOT THE PURPOSE OF MY POST!!!!!!!!!!! I gave plenty of arguments on how powerleveling affects you in OTHER posts, as I've been posting for quite a long time. If I had to repost every last argument I ever made, you'd have sixty pages of nothing but ME. This particular post simply describes the effect that powerleveling will have once removed. Which is none. Why powerleveling is bad is a completely different topic. This just states that as long as you CAN powerlevel, people WILL powerlevel.
[ QUOTE ]
Just what I was thinking. It's really the insanely loud group that gets riled up by seeing a low-level toon standing in a train station that "effects the game". We all have to suffer because of attempts to solve the "problem" that is a made-up problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, I don't know that I'd call the insane amount of lag that you hit when you approach the Talos train station or the Peregrine ferry a "made-up problem." I don't often get that much lag outside of a Hamidon Raid.
However, what really needs to be done here is a cost-benefit analysis.
Benefit: Get rid of the insane train station lag. A lot of the people who are giving this version of the plan a thumbs-up would be the folks who, like me, get really frustrated when they need to take the train in Talos; not only is Talos a hub between most of the zones in the map but it's prime PLing turf for characters in their 20s PL'ing lower folks. The two factors in combination can often make trying to catch the train tantamount to swimming through mollasses. It's easy to see how some people--who absolutely hate that lag, aren't terribly fond of PL'ing in general, and don't tend to be on teams that often hunt split up could be in favor of this proposal.
Cost: Disenfranchising a lot of legitimate team players. Then there are those people who aren't bothered by lag or powerlevelling and/or for whom hunting zones split up is an important tool in their tactics-bag. These people don't feel that legitimate players should be penalized for playing in their preferred manner--and there do seem to be a lot of them.
So, is curbing PL lag worth the cost of ticking off a lot of subscribers? That's the question Statesman has to ask himself.
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say a stranger dangles a $1000 dollar bill in your face.
Now he does it to twenty other people.
Most of you are going to beat him up and run off with the cash.
Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game. Want proof?
Take a look at many of the FPS games out there. Lots of them have map glitches that are easy to exploit. Notice how people continually exploit them? They don't STOP playing the game when the glitch gets fixed and they don't NOT buy a game just because it LACKS map glitches. But it never fails... the easier the glitch is to reproduce, the more people will take advantage of it.
Remove the glitch, you remove the incentive. But just because a map is patched, people aren't going to stop playing the game.
Remove the powerleveling methods, you remove the drive. But just because powerleveling is gone, people aren't going to be so quick to ditch the game itself. There's a lot more to this game than just powerleveling to 50.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct, but I think you may be missing the point. The thing is that people are tired of "fixes" or changes to things that already work well work in lieu of changes that are most commonly asked for, fixes to broken or weak powersets and other issues with ingame play. I think that's where the ire comes from.
[ QUOTE ]
I never gave a definition, like you. There's no simple way to sum up powerleveling that takes into account every last instance of it. You assume too much.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a quote directly from your post: "it's powerleveling because you're taking advantage (read:exploiting) of the game mechanics to get an overall increase in your experience."
If you want to try a different definition that you think works, I'd be glad to hear it. Until then, I can only judge based on what you've already posted. You concede it's not Statesman's definiition of PLing. If it's a fair definition, I'm sure people will rally around it and tell me my definition is wrong. But without a definition it's just PLing because you or I or personX says it is.
If you want to label stuff outside States' definition as PLing, it's only fair to define what you mean by PLing for the rest of us.
It's already been mentioned that the programmers working on this are different from the programmers working on other issues. This just took a lot less time to fix and so was finished earlier. Other ATs and things are still being worked on, but they're being worked on by OTHER teams. They'll be out when they're finished, not in lieu of anything.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just what I was thinking. It's really the insanely loud group that gets riled up by seeing a low-level toon standing in a train station that "effects the game". We all have to suffer because of attempts to solve the "problem" that is a made-up problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, I don't know that I'd call the insane amount of lag that you hit when you approach the Talos train station or the Peregrine ferry a "made-up problem." I don't often get that much lag outside of a Hamidon Raid.
However, what really needs to be done here is a cost-benefit analysis.
Benefit: Get rid of the insane train station lag. A lot of the people who are giving this version of the plan a thumbs-up would be the folks who, like me, get really frustrated when they need to take the train in Talos; not only is Talos a hub between most of the zones in the map but it's prime PLing turf for characters in their 20s PL'ing lower folks. The two factors in combination can often make trying to catch the train tantamount to swimming through mollasses. It's easy to see how some people--who absolutely hate that lag, aren't terribly fond of PL'ing in general, and don't tend to be on teams that often hunt split up could be in favor of this proposal.
Cost: Disenfranchising a lot of legitimate team players. Then there are those people who aren't bothered by lag or powerlevelling and/or for whom hunting zones split up is an important tool in their tactics-bag. These people don't feel that legitimate players should be penalized for playing in their preferred manner--and there do seem to be a lot of them.
So, is curbing PL lag worth the cost of ticking off a lot of subscribers? That's the question Statesman has to ask himself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok.. I play on Dial-Up and I can tell you from my netgraph, that my lag ALWAYS increases near the trams weather anyone is near them or not. Having players around them isn't increasing my lag much at all. I have just as hard a time at the tram in Skyway as I do in Talos. The lag differential for removing players that happen to stand around there isn't going to change much.
w00t Radio
[ QUOTE ]
1. Missions are now completely exempt from all of these rules. None of them apply to missions, including Outdoor Missions (i.e. "Board Train" missions). Mission haven't changed at all in regards to XP division and eligibility.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you positive that the 1 minute death rule doesn't apply in missions too? Has someone tested this out? That would seem to open things up for the Vengeance Corpse Drag inside missions again...
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say a stranger dangles a $1000 dollar bill in your face.
Now he does it to twenty other people.
Most of you are going to beat him up and run off with the cash.
Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game. Want proof?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I agree with the notion that removing temptations is good, if you make sure the way you remove them is less eggegious than leaving them out there.
For example, you could increase the enforcement of the mugging laws. That one only hurts the people who actually give into temptation. A pure positive.
Or you could make it illegal to display $1,000 bills in public. Which hurts the displayer a little, but decreases the temptation. A net positive.
Or you could make paper money illegal and force people to pay for everything with coins, checks and credit cards. A solution with more negative than positive.
The problem with this solution is not that it removes a temptation, but the way it does so, and the side-effects it produces.
Except you and I disagree in one thing. The side effects. I believe them to actually be POSITIVE, thus even more of a net gain for the Light Side.
[ QUOTE ]
...This change is being implemented to target a small group and will have consequences far reaching beyond its intent...
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's my only real problem with it. It has too much collateral damage associated with it. If they are set on implementing this, than I'd like to see them at least add another layer to it.
Maybe something like an XP cap when you're out of range, so you only get half XPs or XPs for +1s or +2s regardless of the level the mob that was defeated. Or, the XPs you get could be based on the people defeating it rather than your level. So if you are out of range and the team beats something that is +6 to you but only +1 to them, then you only get XPs for a +1. Something like that would have much less severe side effects, but it still might have problems. That's just something off the top of my head.
[ QUOTE ]
Why do I keep dealing with these damn lawyers?
I never gave ANY evidence in that statement regarding ANY stance on how powerleveling affects YOU. THAT WAS NOT THE PURPOSE OF MY POST!!!!!!!!!!! I gave plenty of arguments on how powerleveling affects you in OTHER posts, as I've been posting for quite a long time. If I had to repost every last argument I ever made, you'd have sixty pages of nothing but ME. This particular post simply describes the effect that powerleveling will have once removed. Which is none. Why powerleveling is bad is a completely different topic. This just states that as long as you CAN powerlevel, people WILL powerlevel.
[/ QUOTE ]
To which I had to ask....why is this much effort going into stopping something that doesn't matter?
You did say that putting a stop to PL'ing will make my game better. [ QUOTE ]
Removing blatant temptations allows for a better game.
[/ QUOTE ] So...I asked how that would improve the game for me. I'm still not seeing any benefit to a lack of PL'ers when I log on.
[ QUOTE ]
Benefit: Get rid of the insane train station lag. A lot of the people who are giving this version of the plan a thumbs-up would be the folks who, like me, get really frustrated when they need to take the train in Talos; not only is Talos a hub between most of the zones in the map but it's prime PLing turf for characters in their 20s PL'ing lower folks. The two factors in combination can often make trying to catch the train tantamount to swimming through mollasses. It's easy to see how some people--who absolutely hate that lag, aren't terribly fond of PL'ing in general, and don't tend to be on teams that often hunt split up could be in favor of this proposal.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have only encounters game crippling lag in one place...the Hami raid. I can't do that raid....just can't do it...I get DC'ed every time I try.
I have yet to encounter any significant lag at any train station. There is some...but I barely even notice it. I mean barely too. It's not as if I'm doing any fighting there...it's a safe spot.
Maybe it's different on other servers...but the lag at the trains on Champion just isn't there.
You know what causes me the most lag? TREES!!! Any time my camera has to pass through a tree my framerate drops to nothing. Don't even get me started on Perez Park... but I digress.
[ QUOTE ]
I do not see low-level heroes parked near the train or other "safe" area more than once every couple of days. And I play 2-4 hours every day, at least. Unless this mass parking of PL toons occurs only during off peak hours, in which case I fail to see it as a justification...
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that the whole "lag" argument isn't much of an issue, if at all. It used to be a problem awhile back, but that was some time ago. The auto-log timer curbed a lot of that, in my opinion. Whether or not those AFK people were being PLed, who knows? Regardless, I did immediately notice less AFK people at the trains, and less Tram lag...and that state has continued.
Now, I see far more people being PLed in stores and at zone lines than I ever see at the Trams. I think it's very common, but I never notice any lag from it because it's never more than two or three people.
Dwimble