[ QUOTE ]
Hit a resistance tanker at 90% resistance with 10,000 points of damage, and they take 1000 points of damage. No attack I know of deals that kind of damage, yet a Inv. Tank would actually survive the attack!
Yes, the Defense heavy Ice tank has a much smaller chance of being hit by that one mega-hit. But we have a 0% chance of surviving it. Level 50 Tanks with perma-hoarfrost don't have half that much in hit points.
[/ QUOTE ]
Against a +1 or +2 (not precisely sure) Dreck, my DM/DA scrapper with 50% energy resistance (approximately) took 4,000 points after resistance from his atomic blast.
Naturally, it didn't even phase the Inv/SS tanker who was tanking him.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, if I get into a crowd of villains, hit EA, hit 4-5 of them, and then the boss (Council Archon seems the most common in this scenario) chains three hits on me. Is that floored accuracy?
[/ QUOTE ]
For a +3 boss or so, you 'should' be at floored acc. However, many bosses, and quite a few minions, have pretty hefty +accs to thier attack. I belive Archons are mong this level, so you're going to need a slotted EA or more foes to actually floor them. Not to mention tha it could just be random chance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm getting hit with -Def bullets from the Archon's minions.
Anyway, as I pointed out, I wanted to see how EA worked before slotting up the defense boost because of the changes on test.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
Against a +1 or +2 (not precisely sure) Dreck, my DM/DA scrapper with 50% energy resistance (approximately) took 4,000 points after resistance from his atomic blast.
Naturally, it didn't even phase the Inv/SS tanker who was tanking him.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect that'd be a +2. I'll test personally, but I suspect this means we're giong to have to add Drek to the list of Archvillans who can oneshot an even level Ice tank.
I admit I've avoiding chancing it thus far by simple expident of taunt +hibernate when he gets to about 35% hp. Gives me about 20 seconds of unkillability where he's only interested in me, normally enough time to wait out the nuke. Guess I'll suck it up and try it.
I may be misremembering, and only took 2000 points after resists, which is still enough to one-shot a 50th level ice tanker, I think.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok I posted this in the Tanker Forum but I'm posting it here also.
BTW Kali there is virtually no way for you to tell the difference between the old EA and the new EA. You're flooring the foe ACC either way (at least if you are slotting properly).
[/ QUOTE ]
I have six slots in FA and WI, and five slots in GA. I currently have two slots (recharge) in EA because I wanted to get a sense for how the power feels on Live before slotting +Def into it. My next level (31) will see three more slots into it to make up the difference.
I don't feel that I am always flooring villain accuracy. There are occasions, even after using EA, where I get hit an awful lot. This doesn't happen as often if I hit a large crowd with EA. Against stuff even-level to me, sure. Against what my team actually fights? (Invincible missions, 6-8 team members) It seems less likely.
I mean, if I get into a crowd of villains, hit EA, hit 4-5 of them, and then the boss (Council Archon seems the most common in this scenario) chains three hits on me. Is that floored accuracy?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're getting slaughtered by the Streak Breaker. Go to long without being hit and the Streak Breaker steps in and auto forces the system to hit you. It sucks. All the sudden you get this string of attacks that puts you back at an overall 5% floor for your foes.
Few notes for those not keeping up with I4:
Slotting up Health might well become more viable. Since I've noticed quite a few ice tankers already suggest taking and slotting up this power, this is more just a 'good to know' thing than a major change. It will obviously affect Stone and Invul the same as it effects Ice (assuming perma HP boosting).
I hereby withdraw my earlier statements with regards to Ice armor and pvp, which I never intended to be a justification for the lack of buffage/downgrading of EA. Ice's complete lack of resistance to Fear and Confuse means that if an Ice tank EAs up, one fear and they're going to be a nice juicy detoggle target in 30 seconds, when EA wears off. Focused Accuracy also gives us more than a few issues- but that power comes at a pretty high cost, and we have Hibernate.
I'm sure not many of the people reading this thread have any interest in playing an ice tank teh uber build in pvp, and I myself will probably abandon the arena when it goes live (unless some fairly drastic changes are made), but that's another story. And I'm avoiding mentioning the fairly large amount of psi damage being thrown about, which of course we can't handle well.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, if I get into a crowd of villains, hit EA, hit 4-5 of them, and then the boss (Council Archon seems the most common in this scenario) chains three hits on me. Is that floored accuracy?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're getting slaughtered by the Streak Breaker. Go to long without being hit and the Streak Breaker steps in and auto forces the system to hit you. It sucks. All the sudden you get this string of attacks that puts you back at an overall 5% floor for your foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
THis could be true, but I don't think so. The streakbreaker will nail you, but it seems to take a little bit to kick in.
What I actually think this is is simply a quartz like situation. The archons have a very noticible +acc. I've not done the math on it, but I'd say it's probably not too far off a quartz. Facing them in the mid 20s, they simply didn't miss enough to notice it, and I usually had to rely on teammates to keep me alive/take them out. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I specificly remember them being more than a minor issue.
[ QUOTE ]
You're getting slaughtered by the Streak Breaker. Go to long without being hit and the Streak Breaker steps in and auto forces the system to hit you. It sucks. All the sudden you get this string of attacks that puts you back at an overall 5% floor for your foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
The streakbreaker, as I understand it, only forces one hit after a string of misses (determined by base accuracy). I've not heard that it forces a string of hits to get accuracy to where it should be.
Oh, speaking of hitting streaks, this happened about one second after I taunted the Freakshow. I thought I didn't even have a chance to use EA before that, but you can see the message indicating that it went off.
So, how often does that happen to invuln?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure not many of the people reading this thread have any interest in playing an ice tank teh uber build in pvp, and I myself will probably abandon the arena when it goes live (unless some fairly drastic changes are made), but that's another story. And I'm avoiding mentioning the fairly large amount of psi damage being thrown about, which of course we can't handle well.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm already working on Health, but... Check out the team chat in my screenshot. 
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
I remember a post from long ago that said that the streak-breaker code shouldn't affect us since it takes a long time to go into effect. (An old dev post that I can't find) I've always wondered if it does since we (ice tanks) have all seen moments where it seems like everyone hits us at once (non-alpha strikes). I wonder if the streak-breaker code is based on each individual enemy (offense) or if it is based on the character (defense). If this does indeed affect us, it would make a big difference.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, speaking of hitting streaks, this happened about one second after I taunted the Freakshow. I thought I didn't even have a chance to use EA before that, but you can see the message indicating that it went off.
[/ QUOTE ]
I also notice that most of the hits at the end of that string are ranged hits. Is it possible that these attacks had all started before you hit EA, then nailed you after EA was up? Your defense would have been weak when they made the attack roll, then blasted thru by the time it boosted your defense.
Which is still an issue with alpha-strikes and Ice tanks. If you can't lay down EA, your main defense power is sitting there wasted. And a room of Freak Tanks can smack you around. Resistance doesn't care where you are in the room, or if you fired off some power or another.
Without invisibility (Stealth... for a Tank?) of some form, we're at risk. Other Tanks have resistance to protect them, and then turn up their hardiness by being close (Fire/Damage, Inv/Invulnerability). Stone gets Defense and Resistance up-front anyway. Yes, even a debuff in Chilling Aura won't protect us from that, so god help us.
Btw, did a respec on the Training Server. Tried running with my Ice Armors (FA/GA), and no Tough. For those of you who said you don't run Tough all the time, I truely feel for you. You have perseverance beyond my ken. Never burned healing insperations like that before.
[ QUOTE ]
I also notice that most of the hits at the end of that string are ranged hits. Is it possible that these attacks had all started before you hit EA, then nailed you after EA was up? Your defense would have been weak when they made the attack roll, then blasted thru by the time it boosted your defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, even without the EA, I have ~80% defense vs their attacks. I'm not sure what their accuracy was relative to that (+3 - +4), but it seemed like a fairly large string of hits given my defense.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
Few notes for those not keeping up with I4:
Slotting up Health might well become more viable. Since I've noticed quite a few ice tankers already suggest taking and slotting up this power, this is more just a 'good to know' thing than a major change. It will obviously affect Stone and Invul the same as it effects Ice (assuming perma HP boosting).
I hereby withdraw my earlier statements with regards to Ice armor and pvp, which I never intended to be a justification for the lack of buffage/downgrading of EA. Ice's complete lack of resistance to Fear and Confuse means that if an Ice tank EAs up, one fear and they're going to be a nice juicy detoggle target in 30 seconds, when EA wears off. Focused Accuracy also gives us more than a few issues- but that power comes at a pretty high cost, and we have Hibernate.
I'm sure not many of the people reading this thread have any interest in playing an ice tank teh uber build in pvp, and I myself will probably abandon the arena when it goes live (unless some fairly drastic changes are made), but that's another story. And I'm avoiding mentioning the fairly large amount of psi damage being thrown about, which of course we can't handle well.
[/ QUOTE ]
What I've found is nice about Ice is there are plenty of slots to go around. I have Health, Hoarfrost, and Tough 6 slotted. So I am constantly at 2900 hp (with accolades) and have pretty noticeable regen. On your pvp comment, Fear and Confuse should never last 30 sec. That's what makes Ice so appealing in PvP: we can get hit with one of those 2 effects, but if we got EA off we're the only tanker set that is safe while mezzed. And on your psychic comment, only Stone is safe there. I think Dark/Psy Defenders are going to wreak utter havoc in PvP.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is going to argue that Ice tanks have major issues handling 'average' bosses, lts, or minions. The problems come in with certain foes who have massive defense debuffs, powers which have self def debuffs (is anyone else thinking Rage is going to screw over Ice tanks now?), massive acc boosts, the horror that is untyped attacks (*cough* toxic *cough*) or psi.
Ice vs regular foes just has to deal with the streaky RNG. In an 8 man team, at level 28, I was killed by a single spawn at Unyielding when 2 Tank Swipers and a lt hit me at the same time- with Hoarfrost up. A rare case, yes, but it does happen. It's an inherent weakness that Ice has is that it is entirely reliant on numbers and odds.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate dying when Hoarfrost is up. 2600 hp just isn't enough anymore it seems. And what's the point of being a DEF set, if so many enemies have -DEF powers?? Even without the -DEF powers, we still get "the streak". It's horrible....what is our strength?
[ QUOTE ]
As for the change to EA, the problem comes in that some things in the game really do make your defense need to be that high, if defense is all you have. Tanks as a rule don't have the damage capacity to take out a quartz- Energy Transfer aside- before they get nailed hard enough to run or hibernate or use those awakens.
[/ QUOTE ]
The first time I saw a quartz, it became the day I hated DE. 1 quartz is bad enough, and 2 makes it seem we're wearing paper armor. 3....it's like we're naked and strung up to be a punching bag.
[ QUOTE ]
As for Archvillans, it's just stupid, period, that Ice has to go outside it's set for Weave if it wants to have a shot vs psi avs (the def based tanker with no def to something boggles my mind), and needs tough to aviod oneshotting. For the record, while risk is fun, can anyone present an arguement that being oneshotted is at all fun?
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that I'm 50...I don't care about being one-shotted, unless it means my teammates dying. The Psychic Clockwork King and Psychic Babbage, have yet to one shot me. Why? I was with some dang good defenders. The King could only take 1/3 of my hp at a time (with Hoarfrost on), so with inspirations and constant healing...I could manage to stay alive.
I really do agree...how the DEF-based tank doesn't have defense to something...is really quite mind-boggling.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really a fan of the spreadsheets going aruond comparing Ice to Invul, let alone to Stone and Fire. I actually think the other 3 sets are fairly well balanced and set up, but I don't feel that the game is balanced perfectly numerically, nor should it be. I know you're trying to demonstrate the dispairity, but I think it's even easier by listing the holes in various armor types.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really do appreciate you guys going out and compiling all that info. I'm not trying to downplay it either - but numbers are numbers. Sometimes numbers don't match up to actuality...strangely so. I can EA X# of guys, get my DEF increased to Y%, and still get hit - even the deadly "streak". X & Y being..well, insert random number here.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, to someone who pointed out that Ice tanks are the anti-sappers: not in I4. Stone armor now gets endurance drain resists in the form of Rooted, not to mention Confuse resists
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait....we were anti-sappers?? Since when? I never knew that...sure doesn't seem like it. Sure, you can hold a sapper..if you're */Ice, and that's only one at a time...assuming you DO hit him.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry if I'm coming off a bit negatively, but I'm kind of sick (as in ill) and a bit frustrated. I don't understand what the devs -want- Ice to be, but the current situation is basicly 'fairly good at pvp, worse than every scrapper and tanker set at everything else'. I guess I'd at least like a redname to post -some- reaction, short of Geko's post, which I think most of us can agree is more or less looking at EA in a vaccum.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is it the Dev's want us to be? - that is a very good question. I would like to know, so far - it's guys (and gals) who get shafted. We got a little bit of love with stacking armors...but we're still the underdogs in the tank world. I still don't know how we're the "controller" tanks - CE's slow isn't worth it higher up, and Icicles (despite doing "plenty" of damage) do help enough. I'll admit, it does quicken up the pace of battles - when they hit. I've got 3 dmg, 2 acc, and 1 end redux in my Icicles - they do about...18-24 dmg depending on what I'm fighting. Even con to +1ish. It'd be nice to have some kind of debuff along with those things...so far we're mainly weaknesses, and not many strengths.
[ QUOTE ]
I may be misremembering, and only took 2000 points after resists, which is still enough to one-shot a 50th level ice tanker, I think.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pre-accolades and pre-hoarfrost, a lvl 50 Ice tank will have about 1800 hp.
[ QUOTE ]
Slotting up Health might well become more viable. Since I've noticed quite a few ice tankers already suggest taking and slotting up this power, this is more just a 'good to know' thing than a major change. It will obviously affect Stone and Invul the same as it effects Ice (assuming perma HP boosting).
[/ QUOTE ]
I did that ASAP, it's saved me on only a few occasions. (Usually if you're gonna get hit hard enough to be nearly dead, it's 'cause you're soon gonna be dead.)
[ QUOTE ]
Btw, did a respec on the Training Server. Tried running with my Ice Armors (FA/GA), and no Tough. For those of you who said you don't run Tough all the time, I truely feel for you. You have perseverance beyond my ken. Never burned healing insperations like that before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Never had Tough. Probably never will have it....my tank is 50, and I don't plan on changing too much of his build right now. For crying out loud, I didn't even have Wet Ice till lvl 24 (Fighting Tsoo was HELL)!! (I passed it up when it was only a minor mez-resistance and non-stacking armors.)
My first PvP experience today...was kind of strange. I exemplared down to lvl 26 and fought a Inv/SS tank (lvl 25). To quote him, "It's like an immovable object fighting an unstoppable force." The round ended in a stalemate. I could hit him, for little damage. He couldn't hit me (often), for about 4x as much damage. Not once did we knock eachothers toggles off. For kicks and giggles we did a round of 50 vs 25. That made me feel good about myself again.
After that, I did a 4 vs 4 "any-weight" match. It was a 25, 34, 44, and 50 vs a 21, 32, 41, and 50. The controller and I being the 50's.
The round started off with me going "oh great..." when I discovered the enemy 25 (a kheldian) stayed in White Dwarf at all times, with very high resistances. Despite toggle-smashing attacks, they stayed in. The enemy scrapper, the 34, would SS around and always attack our lvl 21 and 32 when I wasn't around, picking them off like little children. The enemy tank would always follow me around (a Fire/*) trying to perma-taunt me....so every time I got the controller (Fire/Kinetics) down to near death, I would lose my target and he'd run away phase-shifted.
I didn't kill a soul (one of my teammates KSed me!), but I did the most damage. I didn't see the fire tank hit me once (and with burn the damage was so miniscule I never noticed it). The controller never held me, even though he spammed holds on me (I had about 5-6 showing on status). Not once did my toggles drop, by any means, and never did my hp drop below 90%.
I liked those numbers, really I did. But I did very little to help my team other than not die. They were all squishy, and the other team was too good at isolating me from the rest, or making it so only I could hit the tank when I got any of them near-death.
I'll do more PvP testing later...but so far, the Ice tank can (almost) hold it's own against anything I've seen.
Glenjimo Hasaiki lvl 50 Ice/Ice
Facts about streak-breaker:
According to the devs, the streakbreaker is not there on mobs.
It only kicks in when a PLAYER misses a mob many times, then it gives you a guarenteed hit, based on: your level vs mob level and number of consecutive misses.
I do not know if this is in effect in PvP (but testing shows not, i've missed an elude scrapper 50+ times in a row), but in PvE there is no streakbreaker against your ice tank.
The mobs can miss infinite number of times in a row, depending on your luck that is.
But they can also hit many times in a row, when unlucky.
And there in lies the gripe of +def, especially on a tank.
Problem here lies in the fact that minion acc and boss/av acc differs so much.
They can't just raise the toggle +def values, because that would make it to easy to floor minions. While against AV's with high acc, ice tankers (and toggle SR) gets hit way way to much.
My suggestion? Make EA work better against more powerful foes.
It currently gives +18.75% def / mob , draing from a max of 5 mobs (on test).
How about 18.75% from minions, but higher from others up to 30% from an archvillain.
That would give us help against the tough bosses/AV's.
This would however not remove the problem of oneshotting.
Ice tankers needs less weaknesses as compensation.
The psi-weakness we will keep, nothing will change that most likely.
Removing the weakness to toxic/fire would be a good start.
How about: same defense to everything except psi.
Keep the cold resist on the toggles.
Temp-protection changes name (to something like, frozen skin or such)
and becomes 10% fire/lethal/smash resist.
a slight resist would really make a world of difference.
If we can avoid one-shotting only the unlucky streak will be a major drawback, but as a +def based set that's unavoidable.
Remeber that CE really DOES mitigate damage on the long term.
[ QUOTE ]
Facts about streak-breaker:
According to the devs, the streakbreaker is not there on mobs.
It only kicks in when a PLAYER misses a mob many times, then it gives you a guarenteed hit, based on: your level vs mob level and number of consecutive misses.
[/ QUOTE ]
First off, I think when people talk about "the Streak" it is notthe streakbreaker. I don't think anyone's even mentioned the streak-breaker as forementioned just now. When we refer to "the Streak" it is just that - a streak of lucky blow, one after another. No matter how high our defense is, the Streak will always be there. It is the bane of an Ice tank's existance. Well, one of the many - we seem to have plenty of weaknesses but not many strengths.
[ QUOTE ]
The mobs can miss infinite number of times in a row, depending on your luck that is.
But they can also hit many times in a row, when unlucky.
And there in lies the gripe of +def, especially on a tank.
[/ QUOTE ]
Therein lies one of our gripes. Somehow, that 5% chance to get hit despite our whatever% DEF will get through. That's just not right. RES allows hits to get through, but aren't they always -dmg? What'd be nice is if our armors somehow reduced the mobs acc, not made us harder to hit. (Kinda reverse buffing..yeah)
[ QUOTE ]
Problem here lies in the fact that minion acc and boss/av acc differs so much.
They can't just raise the toggle +def values, because that would make it to easy to floor minions. While against AV's with high acc, ice tankers (and toggle SR) gets hit way way to much.
My suggestion? Make EA work better against more powerful foes.
It currently gives +18.75% def / mob , draing from a max of 5 mobs (on test).
How about 18.75% from minions, but higher from others up to 30% from an archvillain.
That would give us help against the tough bosses/AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
I second the motion!!
[ QUOTE ]
This would however not remove the problem of oneshotting.
Ice tankers needs less weaknesses as compensation.
The psi-weakness we will keep, nothing will change that most likely.
Removing the weakness to toxic/fire would be a good start.
How about: same defense to everything except psi.
Keep the cold resist on the toggles.
Temp-protection changes name (to something like, frozen skin or such)
and becomes 10% fire/lethal/smash resist.
a slight resist would really make a world of difference.
If we can avoid one-shotting only the unlucky streak will be a major drawback, but as a +def based set that's unavoidable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I second the motion. We have too many holes in our set. Way too many in comparison to others. These holes should be slowly decreased, not increased.
[ QUOTE ]
Remeber that CE really DOES mitigate damage on the long term.
[/ QUOTE ]
And also remember that CE is only noticeably effective to lower level mobs and minions to around +3. If I've got RA (or some other +end regen) on me, I'll put up CE for kicks and giggles. Sure, they move a lot slower, but the rate at which they attack seems pretty miniscule. In the high end of the game (40+) I tried using CE on mobs in Invincible missions....it was a waste of endurance.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, to someone who pointed out that Ice tanks are the anti-sappers: not in I4. Stone armor now gets endurance drain resists in the form of Rooted, not to mention Confuse resists
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait....we were anti-sappers?? Since when? I never knew that...sure doesn't seem like it. Sure, you can hold a sapper..if you're */Ice, and that's only one at a time...assuming you DO hit him.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've only fought one sapper and he drained my endurance very quickly. I thought I was a goner... and then I turned on Glacial armor and laughed at him. From my very limited experience with the sapper, the drain must be an energy attack and if it doesn't hit there won't be an endurance drain.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
[ QUOTE ]
And also remember that CE is only noticeably effective to lower level mobs and minions to around +3. If I've got RA (or some other +end regen) on me, I'll put up CE for kicks and giggles. Sure, they move a lot slower, but the rate at which they attack seems pretty miniscule. In the high end of the game (40+) I tried using CE on mobs in Invincible missions....it was a waste of endurance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. The only reason I have ever used CE is for the Taunt effect. I use it to herd and that's about it. I've never noticed any kind of appreciable difference in the attack speed of enemies hit by CE. Sure, it may have a difference in the very long run, but by the time it would make a difference, shouldn't the enemies already be taken care of? 
CE would be a lot better if there were -recharge enhancements, in addition to the -speed enhancements. That would, coincidentally, go a long way to bringing Ice Melee up to par, I think.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, to someone who pointed out that Ice tanks are the anti-sappers: not in I4. Stone armor now gets endurance drain resists in the form of Rooted, not to mention Confuse resists
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait....we were anti-sappers?? Since when? I never knew that...sure doesn't seem like it. Sure, you can hold a sapper..if you're */Ice, and that's only one at a time...assuming you DO hit him.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've only fought one sapper and he drained my endurance very quickly. I thought I was a goner... and then I turned on Glacial armor and laughed at him. From my very limited experience with the sapper, the drain must be an energy attack and if it doesn't hit there won't be an endurance drain.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm actually coming to the conclusion (testing vs +6 sappers with my 2 slotted GI) that they have 2-3 tohit rolls in thier ranged single target drain. I've yet to actually be drained from over 3/4ths to 0 by a sapper on my Ice/Ice, and I'm not kidding about the +6s.
As someone (I don't remember who?) had or maybe still has as thier signature- 'There are two types of people, those who hate sappers and those who have glacial armor'. I mean, seriously, what's the worst that's going to happen? We're going to loose our toggles! Oh no! Now you just have to somehow hit us! Nthing better than being disoriented for 20 seconds in a mass of guys all taunted to you, not taking a hit.
[ QUOTE ]
What I've found is nice about Ice is there are plenty of slots to go around. I have Health, Hoarfrost, and Tough 6 slotted. So I am constantly at 2900 hp (with accolades) and have pretty noticeable regen. On your pvp comment, Fear and Confuse should never last 30 sec. That's what makes Ice so appealing in PvP: we can get hit with one of those 2 effects, but if we got EA off we're the only tanker set that is safe while mezzed.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, no. Not only does supression not work with any degree of effectiveness in pvp, even when/if it does that '30 seconds' is just wrong, unfortunately. Confuse doesn't have any suppression timer whatsoever, and permafear is trivial beyond belief- and neither drops your toggles, so we have nothing with respect to that. However, fear will stop us from hitting Energy Absorption, and that is our lynchpin.
[ QUOTE ]
And on your psychic comment, only Stone is safe there. I think Dark/Psy Defenders are going to wreak utter havoc in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm aware only stone gets psi defense. I'm not aware of why. I actually think that the sheer undefendability of psi is going to lead to an actual change or two in the stance on psi on the part of the devs- I don't think they can reasonably argue that a /psi defender is in the same even -class- as the other defender secondaries. There is 'many things are different in the arena' and then there is 'this powerset does, on average, 5x more damage than any other of the options'. But that is another rant entirely, which I kind of segued into.
[ QUOTE ]
Problem here lies in the fact that minion acc and boss/av acc differs so much.
They can't just raise the toggle +def values, because that would make it to easy to floor minions. While against AV's with high acc, ice tankers (and toggle SR) gets hit way way to much.
My suggestion? Make EA work better against more powerful foes.
It currently gives +18.75% def / mob , draing from a max of 5 mobs (on test).
How about 18.75% from minions, but higher from others up to 30% from an archvillain.
That would give us help against the tough bosses/AV's.
This would however not remove the problem of oneshotting.
Ice tankers needs less weaknesses as compensation.
The psi-weakness we will keep, nothing will change that most likely.
Removing the weakness to toxic/fire would be a good start.
How about: same defense to everything except psi.
Keep the cold resist on the toggles.
Temp-protection changes name (to something like, frozen skin or such)
and becomes 10% fire/lethal/smash resist.
a slight resist would really make a world of difference.
If we can avoid one-shotting only the unlucky streak will be a major drawback, but as a +def based set that's unavoidable.
Remeber that CE really DOES mitigate damage on the long term.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are probably the best solutions I've seen on this thread. I think Ice Tankers stand one hell of a chance of being completely fixed if:
1) EA scaled based on underlings/minions/lts/bosses/monsters/AVs
2) Permafrost gained 10% to smash/lethal/cold/fire
3) CE could take two routes: A) My preference would be for a major increase in the attack rate reduction of enemies; there doesn't have to be a new attack rate reduction enhancement, but CE's effect should be increased to maybe 30% (not sure what it's at right now); or B) a Damage or Accuracy Debuff. Or maybe but the Dmg or Acc Debuff on Icicles, so it has to hit, and also have an increase in CE's attack rate reduction.
I'd really like to see numbers 1 and 3 happen. Just the other day I was talking to my friend who played EQ2 and he said his guild couldn't do a raid because their guildmate with slow wasn't on. I had to double-take because he said Slow. I was like, "Is slow that good in EQ2?" And he replies, "Dude! It's 30 to 40% less damage taken, it's the difference between easy win and group wipe." Then I silently weeped inside because I have never even given slow on my Ice Tanker or Spines scrapper a second thought.
[ QUOTE ]
2) Permafrost gained 10% to smash/lethal/cold/fire
[/ QUOTE ]
Bluefan while I'm hardcore for a buff to Ice I'm telling you this will never happen.
If smashing and lethal are involved the max total RES for inherint powers will be 25% unenhanced (12.5% for Smashing and 12.5% for Lethal).
If they are not involved then the max is 40% combined total RES (Cold, Fire, Energy, Negative, Toxic).
You won't get more than that nor should you. It's a balance rule that applies to each tanker set. Add the RES to an underperforming Toggle.
Well someone posted a perma-Hasten Ice Armor build with 6 DEF in Energy Absorption. So I got to wondering is this the be all end all. So I ran some numbers and in my opinion its not the way to go... I posted this already on another thread, but I thought this would be of interest here:
The following assumes buffs from 5 mobs since this is how things will be when I4 goes live, unless something changes (and my hopes for that are dwindling).
The following is also using perma-Hasten (its in your build, and heck its in my build too - edit this references the build the OP on the other thread was posting).
I'm also assuming that coming with I4 anyone slotting for End Drain will no longer bother as the effects are so neutered as to be useless with the 5 mob cap. So slotting for End Drain will be a thing of the past.
When EA is 6 slotted for Recharge it it has low peak of 187.5% that will last 3s, and a high peak of 281.25% that will last 13s. You're spending a lot of end to keep this going though.
Now if you slotted in 1 End, 1 Recharge, and 4 DEF, your recharge time becomes 30s. You will have a low peak of 168.75% but it lasts for 15s. And your high peak of 337.50% also lasts 15s. Not really so good.
To me the sweet spot for slotting when you have perma-Hasten is 1 End, 2 Recharge, and 3 DEF. With this your recharge time becomes 25s. Your low peak is 150%, but it only lasts 5s. Your high peak is 300% and lasts for 20s. Like I said this is the sweet spot, there is little diff between 3s and 5s, and you have about 20% more DEF over the 6 slotted Recharge, and spends less Endurance to do it.
If you're looking for the most consistent DEF without worrying about lows and peaks, then you might be interested in doing 1 End, 2 DEF and 3 Recharge your cycle is 22s. Doing this your low peak is 262.50% but it lasts 21s. Your high peak is of 393.75% is higher than any other, but it only lasts for 1s. You're going to spend slightly more End than what I feel is the sweetspot and have a consistently lower DEF.
For completeness... doing 1 End, 1 DEF and 4 Recharge your cycle is 20s. Your low peak is 225.00% and lasts for 15s. Your high peak is 337.50%, but only lasts 5s.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) Permafrost gained 10% to smash/lethal/cold/fire
[/ QUOTE ]
Bluefan while I'm hardcore for a buff to Ice I'm telling you this will never happen.
If smashing and lethal are involved the max total RES for inherint powers will be 25% unenhanced (12.5% for Smashing and 12.5% for Lethal).
If they are not involved then the max is 40% combined total RES (Cold, Fire, Energy, Negative, Toxic).
You won't get more than that nor should you. It's a balance rule that applies to each tanker set. Add the RES to an underperforming Toggle.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oy, sorry sorry sorry. Fine, 7.5% Smash/Lethal 5% Fire/Cold.
I don't like the idea of res in one of our defense toggles.
[ QUOTE ]
I mean, if I get into a crowd of villains, hit EA, hit 4-5 of them, and then the boss (Council Archon seems the most common in this scenario) chains three hits on me. Is that floored accuracy?
[/ QUOTE ]
For a +3 boss or so, you 'should' be at floored acc. However, many bosses, and quite a few minions, have pretty hefty +accs to thier attack. I belive Archons are mong this level, so you're going to need a slotted EA or more foes to actually floor them. Not to mention tha it could just be random chance.