(In response to those who don't like Hibernate)
Don't touch my Hibernate!
When the EA isn't strong enough, I've used my Hoarfrost and I'm still getting pummeled I need it to regroup. I get healed, let my Endurance recharge since Hibernate doesn't cost any and let all my powers recharge.
I'm better coming back as a reinforcement than lying face down in the dirt. I use it when I'm in serious peril so leave it alone!
[ QUOTE ]
(In response to those who don't like Hibernate)
Don't touch my Hibernate!
When the EA isn't strong enough, I've used my Hoarfrost and I'm still getting pummeled I need it to regroup. I get healed, let my Endurance recharge since Hibernate doesn't cost any and let all my powers recharge.
I'm better coming back as a reinforcement than lying face down in the dirt. I use it when I'm in serious peril so leave it alone!
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I've noticed that when I turn on hibernate, if I have other toggles running, my end drops very rapidly. Why is this?
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At first I thought that it was turning off my self powers like Stamina. However I turned off my Icicles and it stopped going down, even with other armor on. This is nice because I can actually come out of Hibernate with my armor still active. Even if all my armor is off I can pre-click one to activate as soon as my Hibernate drops.
That doesn't quite answer the question but might help someone figure out why.
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I've noticed that when I turn on hibernate, if I have other toggles running, my end drops very rapidly. Why is this?
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Hibernate used to cost more endurance than it does now. Either that or my slotting of stamina really improved things. Hibernate uses endurance and any powers that stay activated use endurance as well. I have it slotted with one endurance reducer and stamina six slotted so I can use it indefinitely. The only my endurance drops with hibernate is when icicles is running.
Of course, you might be referring to the moment before hibernate activates. I think this is the devs solution to deactivate toggles by having your endurance bottom out for a moment.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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Of course, you might be referring to the moment before hibernate activates. I think this is the devs solution to deactivate toggles by having your endurance bottom out for a moment.
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Its actually kind of a bad design choice if you ask me.
Hibernate is a specialized version of Phase Shift. However it also heals. To heal we give up movement. But there are other differences that other than the heal make Phase Shift (and Quantum Flight) more usable.
Having characters that have Phase Shift and having an Ice Tanker with Hibernate I can tell you that they do use about the same amount of Endurance (this is a good thing).
But the toggle dropping in Hibernate is overkill. And to top it off the inability to turn toggles back on while Hibernated is extreme overkill. There's no reason for either, we already gave up all movement and action for the heal, and the both PS and QF allow you to toggle powers on and off at will.
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(In response to those who don't like Hibernate)
Don't touch my Hibernate!
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Ravenlute, I understand that you enjoy Hibernate the way it is. I'm not saying the power doesn't have it's uses. It was one of the things I enjoyed adding to my PVP build, since I wasn't about to take Phase Shift, so I that I am nearly unkillable in a 1 on 1 match. (Now that I, like what seems to be everybody else, pack about 10 Break Frees)
Got me down in HP? Hoarfrost... got me down again? Hibernate till Hoarfrost is back up.
In PVE, Hibernate is not without use or value. Others have also argued that Hibernate is apart of their PvE builds, and they use it a few times during a night.
My dislike for the power, as it currently is, is that it goes directly against the Tankers defined role. And I say defined role because every change made to "improve" tanks, such as swaping Provoke for our in-set Taunt, was made to allow us to better draw aggro from large groups. It even says on the AT selection screen that our job is to protect others by drawing enemy fire.
Most uses of Hibernate seem to require a Solo tank (where it's a form of combat "Rest"), or with a second tank (or pets) who will take on Aggro when the Ice tank hibernates.
Unstoppable allows you to tank anything and laugh as they try to take you down, but you are vulnerable when it wears off. Granite Armor makes you a defensive juggernaut, at the cost of offense. Rise of the Phoenix may require your death, but if you die, you can blast things around you for massive damage, and reclaim aggro.
Each fills the role of keeping the Tank knee-deep in aggro, or able to continue tanking against more damage then usual.
Hibernate is the only Tank level 32 power that by definition, removes your ability to maintain aggro.
I can taunt, then hibernate. But once the taunt wears off, my friends are screwed. And nobody wants to hear "hey, the Tank is hibernating, STOP ATTACKING!".
The idea that it gives you a huge Defense and Resistance buff for 2 mintues, then freezes you solid (as currently done) for 15-30 seconds, would follow the same idea as other level 32 powers, and yet be our own unique power. Hibernate would be much like Rage, where everybody needs to know that when you Hibernate, you'll be kicking rear, but when over, you're out of the fight for a bit.
Until they change Hibernate to be useful for grouping tanks, I will ask for changes to the power.
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The streakbreaker, as I understand it, only forces one hit after a string of misses (determined by base accuracy). I've not heard that it forces a string of hits to get accuracy to where it should be.
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If I remember correctly, the streakbreaker is also only supposed to help us, not hurt us. Meaning, the streak breaker only breaks streaks of misses by forcing a hit, and only for us, not the villains.
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Oh, speaking of hitting streaks, this happened about one second after I taunted the Freakshow. I thought I didn't even have a chance to use EA before that, but you can see the message indicating that it went off.
So, how often does that happen to invuln?
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I don't know if this necessarily happened, but even though the system told you EA went off, and then all the hits came pouring in, they could have gone off before the extra defense kicked in. The sequence of events could have happened like this:
Taunt
Freakshow initiate attacks
EA fires, and simultaneously the attacks arrive
EA records visually first
All the attacks land
The important thing to note is that based on my experience, the way the game engine works is that those attacks the freakshow initiated use the defense you have at the moment they started to activate, not the defense you have when they land.
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I've got to agree with Ravenlute, and disagree with you, JJ.
Hibernate is situationally amazingly powerful. Be it when I duck around a corner after getting nailed by a boss or three, or when that AV is about to Nova, I find myself using it probably once a night, sometimes more.
I'm also pretty much an exclusively grouping tank, and to compensate for the time I'll be out of the fight I dedicated a few more slots to taunt than most- but even if I forget to taunt Hibernate seems to maintain aggro somewhat (unlike, say, phase shift). It's very rare, approaching on never, that my team even -realizes- I'm hibernating till they see my health spike suddenly (unless an empath is attempting to heal me franticly). It does take me 'out of the fight' but it really doesn't seem to stop me being a punching bag- if they upped the base threat level while in hibernate, mind you, I'd be the last person to complain.
I'm also fairly excited about the changes on Test for this power. I'm seriously considering 6 slotting it with heal/end/recharge so I can go from zero to full health in 10 seconds for almost no end whenever I want to- that's probably short enough that the taunt from Icicles and Chilling Embrace won't even wear off.
I'm not saying that I would horribly object to some change to hibernate, but I really don't -want- to see it become another Unstoppable, or Moment of Glory. If it's to be changed, the 'catch me when I'm about to die and heal me up' or 'click based unkillable aggro magnet' are both fun ones, and I don't think it'd overbalance the set to have either. But I don't want to see '+def, +res(all but psi), crash' as my last power- I don't like those powers, and I don't think it even comes close to the 'feel' of the Ice Armor set.
Oh, and for the record- last night I tanked a +1 Clockwork King. No defender, the controller was a gravity (whose singularities helped hold every time his protection dropped), and it wasn't exactly easy, but I kept his attention entirely on me, and purely by cycling hibernate, Hoarfrost and Taunt I was able to keep him from taking a swing at the katana scrapper or the fire tank. Not bad for absolutely no defense to psi (the hardest part was surviving while the others cleared the rest of the spawn).
Edit: By the way, JJ, you are the -first- higher level Ice tank I've ever spoken with post I3 who actually has relied on purely WI/Tough to get him through it. I personally cannot imagine running without FA and GA- how else do you shrug off sappers and survive the alpha? I don't usually run tough, as it isn't needed for non-avs within 2 levels of me, but running it soley with my status protection? *shiver* That is some risky stuff.
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The important thing to note is that based on my experience, the way the game engine works is that those attacks the freakshow initiated use the defense you have at the moment they started to activate, not the defense you have when they land.
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Completely true, but I think it's worth mentioning that this does not hold true for resistance.
If you activate tough as soon as you hear a Nemisis Sniper fire, for example, you'll take the resisted level of damage instead of the 'normal' one. Tough has just enough time to activate in that lag time of that extrodinarily long animation- but if you armor wasn't up you're certainly taking the hit.
Minor point, but thought I'd mention it.
Anyone else wonder if the devs are content with the changes to EA/our dissent, or if they're still entertaining ideas, or if they're actually working on a rebalancing of several options?
Crenson,
So what you're saying is that Hibernate allows you to survive against AV/Monsters, and you maintain aggro because you slotted more then the initial slot of Taunt, with Taunt duration.
But that doesn't help you one bit from an Alpha-strike. You have no time to react to a nuke. If the Monster/AV is in "Nuke" animation, and you see the animation going, it's already registered as a hit, or a miss. One-shotted and down.
What you suggest sounds like you are trying to taunt an opponent, then hibernate while the taunt lasts. Then come back out and Taunt again, waiting to toss on Hibernate once it comes back recharged. If the nuke hits while you are Hibernating, you'll be untouched.
You can use it when grouping, but you're still just using it as a glorified rest power. You manage it with Taunt highly slotted, and Hibernate. But I don't want to be resting with the battle going on around us. I want to be mixing it up.
I've never found, in testing my new PvP build, that Hibernate in PvE maintains aggro. They seem about as taunted as they normally are, and lose interest in me after 5-10 seconds of attack. Perhaps if I dedicate additional slots to taunt, and heal to hibernate, I could drop in and be done with Hibernate quickly enough to manage.
But you're welcome to Hibernate as it is. Like I said, it does have it's uses. I just wanted to point out that while you use it, you are not managing aggro. A new group that drops in, or a boss that teleports into the group, is going to ignore you like the big block of ice you are.
And I'll have to try cycling Hibernate against an AV, to see what it does...
edit: Saw your edit, Cren. I didn't realize I was so rare to use only WI, EA and Tough. Sappers past level 41 are easy enough, since a single hold will stop them. But I'll admit that my duo makes Ice work much better. My wife is an Ill/Rad controller. Nothing like using confuse on a Sapper, and letting them use that nasty power to help you instead. I also avoided FA because EA did everything I needed in door missions with group spawns. It has made things tough with AV/Monsters, but the Rad fields give me bonus Defense, and Damage Debuff. I do intend to take FA at 47, to help with the AV/Monsters I now face.
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I don't want to be resting with the battle going on around us. I want to be mixing it up.
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I agree. This is also the reason I don't like being so weak to AV's and Monsters. I want to be standing toe to toe not hiding behind another tanker or scrapper when I see them.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
sorry, double post
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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But that doesn't help you one bit from an Alpha-strike. You have no time to react to a nuke. If the Monster/AV is in "Nuke" animation, and you see the animation going, it's already registered as a hit, or a miss. One-shotted and down.
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No question- and I would love some alpha/nuke survivablity buff. I've been oneshotted by 3 avs so far, and there's simply nothing fun about a oneshot, ever. My comments re: surviving nukes were specific- I know when Drek and Nightstar are going to nuke, so I judge the hp, taunt, hibernate, tell everyone to back off as they do thier thing, drop out and go.
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You can use it when grouping, but you're still just using it as a glorified rest power. You manage it with Taunt highly slotted, and Hibernate. But I don't want to be resting with the battle going on around us. I want to be mixing it up.
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I can completely respect this, but at the same time I like being able to drop out of the battle, regroup, and come back with my wits and health about me in fairly short order. That said, it's not like I use this power a -lot-. When I overreach myself and have a go or two and just need a second to pop back up to full health, when Seige nails me with a big hit, whatever- Hibernate removes any worry about seeing my health hit yellow, and certainly removed any need/desire to keep respites on hand. For that alone, I love the power.
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I've never found, in testing my new PvP build, that Hibernate in PvE maintains aggro. They seem about as taunted as they normally are, and lose interest in me after 5-10 seconds of attack. Perhaps if I dedicate additional slots to taunt, and heal to hibernate, I could drop in and be done with Hibernate quickly enough to manage.
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In my experince, running Icicles and CE, it takes about 5-6 seconds for them to even think about hitting someone else after I cycle up Hibernate. Even then, if it's not a blaster wailing on them, it normally takes a litttle longer for them to notice there's anyone around me, and if it's a retreat tactic they usually won't even look up. It seems like we maintain base Tank threat level (fairly high, which is why a tank is often the first attacked in groups even before you taunt/attack) while in Hibernate, unlike phase shift.
I have noticed that if I'm gathering a huge group, jump over a wall, and hibernate, some of the people outside of thier weapons range (not all, just some) will occasionally turn around. If I turn it off, they'll immedately turn back around. It's odd, and I haven't nailed down exactly why, or why some foe types don't behave this way at all.
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But you're welcome to Hibernate as it is. Like I said, it does have it's uses. I just wanted to point out that while you use it, you are not managing aggro. A new group that drops in, or a boss that teleports into the group, is going to ignore you like the big block of ice you are.
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No question, which is why when I use it it's as a 'drop in, drop out' thing, hibernating for as short as possible to make sure my squishies don't get in trouble.
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And I'll have to try cycling Hibernate against an AV, to see what it does...
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Makes your life easier, mostly. But if you're mostly duoing with a /rad, yeah, I can see why you're kinda worried about the aggro factor- EF and RI are pretty high on the aggro scale. Then again, Icicles + CE + EA actually breaks an even level tanker's Taunt (seriously), so when you're out of that block o' Ice you're mostly without issue.
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edit: Saw your edit, Cren. I didn't realize I was so rare to use only WI, EA and Tough. Sappers past level 41 are easy enough, since a single hold will stop them. But I'll admit that my duo makes Ice work much better. My wife is an Ill/Rad controller. Nothing like using confuse on a Sapper, and letting them use that nasty power to help you instead. I also avoided FA because EA did everything I needed in door missions with group spawns. It has made things tough with AV/Monsters, but the Rad fields give me bonus Defense, and Damage Debuff. I do intend to take FA at 47, to help with the AV/Monsters I now face.
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Confusing a sapper.....*drools*
And I did see a lot of that before I3, of course, but now it seems that everyone grabs all 3 basic armors, even if they don't slot them much. I use EA, and use it quite a bit, but I like being able to stand up to groups without worrying if I hit enough people with it.
Ok, your use of hibernate is a bit clearer to me now. 
You use Icicles, and I would bet CE slotted for taunt (as I do), or some taunt in Icicles too. You dump a ton of aggro most of the battle, and as you said, as long as you don't have a blaster in the party, you'll hold aggro for something like 10 seconds.
I've got Phantasams in my group 24-7, and Rad fields out too. Unless I feel like sleeping on the couch, I can't let those bring aggro back to my wife's controller, while I'm sitting in Hibernate. I shouldn't generalize my experience with what other grouping Tanks see.
I guess I'm just disappointed that Hibernate doesn't work for me and my groups. But I'd wager that most Ice tanks here wouldn't mind something with a bit more utility. Something that we could always use with groups, not just with "non-blaster/non-aggro Defenders and Controller" groups.
I'm a Tanker, and you won't take any damage if I can help it.
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...but even if I forget to taunt Hibernate seems to maintain aggro somewhat (unlike, say, phase shift).
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You can "hold" agro with Phase Shift just as well as with Hibernate. It depends on how in range other targets are for the mobs. On my Blaster who has Phase Shift I've managed to hold the entire end room in the Infernal mission during a wipe of the rest of my team (determined by the demons and Infernal trying to still get at me for some time while the rest of the team regrouped).
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It's very rare, approaching on never, that my team even -realizes- I'm hibernating till they see my health spike suddenly (unless an empath is attempting to heal me franticly). It does take me 'out of the fight' but it really doesn't seem to stop me being a punching bag- if they upped the base threat level while in hibernate, mind you, I'd be the last person to complain.
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I use this trick too. But I don't think the addition of being able to use Heal insps is enough. To me my problem with using the trick above is not how long it takes me to heal, its how long I have to wait to get Hibernate back up again.
If this is a power that we're intended to rely up to Tank with, then the recharge needs to be slower. I mean the fastest you can get it to come back on is 16s, but that requires perma-Hasten and 6 Recharges. Often, when tanking AVs, I've died or come close to dying while waiting on that recharge.
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I'm also fairly excited about the changes on Test for this power. I'm seriously considering 6 slotting it with heal/end/recharge so I can go from zero to full health in 10 seconds for almost no end whenever I want to- that's probably short enough that the taunt from Icicles and Chilling Embrace won't even wear off.
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Problem is that if you slot for one of the three, you can't get the other two into an acceptable range to do that. I've played with it some. And like I said they need to lower the base recharge some, neither the end usage or heal rate are major issues - I can already heal to full from about 25% health in less than the duration of a single taunt with 1 duration enh in it. To me that's fast enough for a base. But what I need is for it to be available much sooner than it is now, but when the fastest non-Hasten can get it is 20s - that's just too long.
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I'm not saying that I would horribly object to some change to hibernate, but I really don't -want- to see it become another Unstoppable, or Moment of Glory.
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I agree. Hibernate gives up a lot to get moderate results for a top tier power. You are Immobilzed, yet you have all the effects of being held (you can't act at all other than to turn off Hibernate) all for a fast heal. Yes now you can slot it, but that will be at the cost of not having it available for a period of time that can very easily mean death for an Ice Tanker. It costs as much as Phase Shift does End-wise, yet someone Phase Shifted can still toggle their powers.
The rage defense debuff is going to be a killer if they stick with nerfing EA/keeping ice tankers down, I'm ice/SS 
True, the need to boost your defense is even greater then normal. I suppose you'll have to slot more into FA/GA. Rage will have it's changes made, and this is another time when we deal with defense debuffs. On a positive note, at least you have more control as an Ice tank regarding your defense. If Rage debuffed your resistance instead, would the other Tanker sets be worse off?
Who knows...
Also, the latest patch (4/19) mentions only that some Ice powers for slow weren't working as expected, but says nothing of the Tanker Ice Primary. I guess we'll see next week if the next patch is ready to make changes, or if they're still just tweaking PvP.
I have created a plea for Ice Tank Dialogue post in the tanker forums.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#2694953
If you folks could give it the occasional comment or bump it would be appreciated. This thread and Havok's Analysis thread were highly referenced. Let's keep the (constructive) commentary going. Maybe something can get done that does not involve snowball fights or PVP. Maybe....
TTR
I propose that EA be changed to an Accuracy Debuff instead of a Defense Buff.
It would have to be a slightly larger debuff than the 18% buff, since you don't stack them, but the advantages would be...
1. This is more generally useful against a single target. like in the arena. or against that last Boss standing after the minions are dead.
2. Your entire group can benefit. This helps your role as bodyguard for the team. Much the way Sword scrappers' DefDebuff is more team friendly than a self Accuracy Buff would be.
Debuffs don't scale as well as defense for level.
My DA scrapper relies (currently, but maybe not after I4) on accuracy debuffs to keep bosses from consistently hitting her. The difference is noticeable as the boss' level increases.
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Well, last night I particpated in the pcc pvp challenge, on my Ice tank.
It was pretty fun. 1 vs 1, most scrappers could keep up enough of a damage chain to make me very glad Tough was 4 slotted. 2 vs 1, however, they had a lot more trouble keeping me hurt. With 4 thumping on me I was just fine. When it got to over 10-15, I started getting in trouble again (and yes, I was taunting groups of 10-15).
I did drop quite a bit, simply because I was constantly jumping into groups of high damage dealers and taunting everyone in sight. Certainly quite capible at keeping people occupied while my SG rolled over them, or at least tried.
Brawl as a detoggle did function against me, but since detoggling now randomly affects one toggle and they still had to -hit- me with a mez effect even if they dropped Wet Ice....well
I think that a well organized SG will -trounce- a badly organized one, with teams set up to do various tasks like choke points, and I think that Ice tanks will be extremely powerful in that context.
Enough about that.
I also was chatting off and on with both other ice tanks in the level range, and it occured to me that I never posted (though I intended to) my concept for a chance to Energy Absorption.
In short- up the 'max drained' to 10, lower the per foe def buff to 15%, remove the endurance drain aspect entirely, and add in a 45 second damage debuff. The endurance drain is a joke, and not even a good one- so let's replace it with a team-friendly effect that won't stop alphas (so that'll be our bane) but -will- help us tank medium-to-large sized groups without much worry. We won't be able to herd maps, but we will be able to handle AVs better, and make us -desired- for those fights.
I'm incredibly not a fan of the acc debuff proposed earlier. Acc debuffs don't scale, they'll always have the 5% tohit, and debuffing the foe instead of (rather than in addition to) buffing yourself is probably a very quick way to end up in a lot of trouble. Not to mention to match how EA works now, even half of it, we're talking a 80%+ defbuff, and I think I can hear the devs recoiling in horror over that.
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in short- up the 'max drained' to 10, lower the per foe def buff to 15%, remove the endurance drain aspect entirely, and add in a 45 second damage debuff. The endurance drain is a joke, and not even a good one- so let's replace it with a team-friendly effect that won't stop alphas (so that'll be our bane) but -will- help us tank medium-to-large sized groups without much worry. We won't be able to herd maps, but we will be able to handle AVs better, and make us -desired- for those fights.
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I think your idea for putting the Damage debuff in EA instead of something like CE would be interesting. Since it would stay on them for a length of time and not require they stay in range to be debuffed, it could be more useful since we wouldn't be locked in place.
Drop the endo drain in EA? I'm all for it, but I know others who use it. They slot it with tons of Endo drain, and recharge rate. I have a feeling that EA is our "other" controller-like power. But it's very weak for this use, since you are nearly required to hit mobs with EA twice to negate their endo.
But if you decrease the "per mob" bonus, and increase the cap, does that really help us? Now if I only have one or two mobs I can hit in a group, I get a decent boost. Your change would require I hit even more people to get a reasonable defense boost. And if my debuff is also in EA, then I can only debuff mobs who happen to be in range of the EA blast, when I use it. Not all groups stay that close to eachother. Putting our new "boost" in a power we really need to survive, seems like we'd shoot ourselves in the foot. Do I want defense from this group? Or do I hold off so I can debuff them.
And you say this would increase our desirability for AV fights, but not solve the Alpha-strike issue. If I'm not playing my Tanks, I'd be less inclined to invite an Ice Tank to an AV fight, knowing they could so quickly fall to one-shotting. A damage debuff is supposed to keep that from happening, directly from AV's and Monsters.
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Drop the endo drain in EA? I'm all for it, but I know others who use it. They slot it with tons of Endo drain, and recharge rate. I have a feeling that EA is our "other" controller-like power. But it's very weak for this use, since you are nearly required to hit mobs with EA twice to negate their endo.
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I haven't met anyone who does this. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I really question the usefulness of the strategy. I come to ice tanking from electric blasting, and anything that doesn't tack on a -regen at least is pretty much just window painting. The vast majority of foes regenerate endurace far more quickly than they use it, and very few use toggles. So I figured removing a mostly unused/useless effect wouldn't get -any- objection- but am I simply wrong?
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But if you decrease the "per mob" bonus, and increase the cap, does that really help us? Now if I only have one or two mobs I can hit in a group, I get a decent boost. Your change would require I hit even more people to get a reasonable defense boost. And if my debuff is also in EA, then I can only debuff mobs who happen to be in range of the EA blast, when I use it. Not all groups stay that close to eachother. Putting our new "boost" in a power we really need to survive, seems like we'd shoot ourselves in the foot. Do I want defense from this group? Or do I hold off so I can debuff them.
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Well, the 15% was just a toss out since the debuff would stack and decrease the total damage taken from a given spawn by a fairly considerable amount. You'll take a bit more from the next spawn untill EA cycles- but not a lot more. And it'd encourage taking FA and GA a bit (which is one of the two reasons I've come up with that might have prompted this change).
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And you say this would increase our desirability for AV fights, but not solve the Alpha-strike issue. If I'm not playing my Tanks, I'd be less inclined to invite an Ice Tank to an AV fight, knowing they could so quickly fall to one-shotting. A damage debuff is supposed to keep that from happening, directly from AV's and Monsters.
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Actually, I've never died in the opening volley with my ice tank. With this, you have to merely survive the first attack to get into range to EA, then keep that debuff cycling to keep them in lower damage levels.
The reasons I thought EA might make sense as the damage debuff were that I didn't think anyone -used- it as an endurance drainer and it might seem to fit the 'feel' of the power.
On a somewhat related note, how about swapping the endurance drain for a second slow? Stacking this with CE might enable ice tanks to actually have more of an appreciable slowing effect on foes by the time you get EA- usually in the upper 20s people are regularly fighting +2s, and CE just isn't effective at that scaling.
I also participated in the pcc event, but with a vastly differerent playstyle and build then Crenson. Crenson runs with 6-slotted taunt, so his favorite tactic was to jump in a group of us, taunt and hibernate. Extremely annoying, but extremely effective. Only time it doesn't work well is when I use Tp Foe to pull you right in the middle of us. Whats the point in taunting if we all want to take you down anyway? 
(I meant to get a pic of that...we had at least 8 people whaling on Crenson while he sat there happily hibernating) I'm Ice/Stone myself, so I slotted up my single target attacks, grabbed TP Foe and decided to see how scrapperish I could be. Over all I was very pleased with how I did - Hibernate / Hoarfrost / Ea made it very hard to bring me down. I think I was tied for the 3rd or 4th highest kill count in the first match as well.
Removing the end drain from EA never really occured to me before Crenson mentioned it. The best reason? I don't ever notice the stupid end drain anyway. I'm all for giving it a new secondary effect, but I don't think a damage debuff is the way to go - especially if it's only going to work on 5 mobs and we don't get to pick the 5. An additional slow effect to stack with CE might work - it stays in the theme of our set fairly well and since debuffs don't scale well wouldn't be overpowerd.
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1) EA scaled based on underlings/minions/lts/bosses/monsters/AVs
2) Permafrost gained 10% to smash/lethal/cold/fire
3) CE could take two routes: A) My preference would be for a major increase in the attack rate reduction of enemies; there doesn't have to be a new attack rate reduction enhancement, but CE's effect should be increased to maybe 30% (not sure what it's at right now); or B) a Damage or Accuracy Debuff. Or maybe but the Dmg or Acc Debuff on Icicles, so it has to hit, and also have an increase in CE's attack rate reduction.
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Well, I think some of these ideas have merit, but chances are still on the low side. I'm still keeping my hopes up that the "number of mobs affected" will be upped past 5, to say, 10.
As for our fixes to Ice, I think S/L in Permafrost would be nice, but would need 6 slots to be worthwhile. And I'd still want tough, so there is another 6 slotted power. And if I'm not trusting EA for all my defense, do I need to 6 slot FA and perhaps GA right? And how about those slots in Icicles I need for that power to be worthwhile.
As it is now, I like that Ice needs few slots to be effective. I'd made it from 26 to 44 without more then two slots in EA (End/Def/Permahaste). CE needs no slots since we can't slot for recharge reduction. And I got rid of Icicles before they fixed the endo cost on it, so I'm used to not having it. No FA or GA, and I've done fine.
Taking the punch out of EA just means more reliance on FA/GA. Perhaps that's what they had in mind...?