Err... wrong forum, Havok? 
Nah this is just a copy for folks reading this thread 
The original is in the Tanker forum 
But... it's got nothing to do with Ice Armor or Energy Absorption. So, it really doesn't belong here.
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Ok I posted this in the Tanker Forum but I'm posting it here also.
BTW Kali there is virtually no way for you to tell the difference between the old EA and the new EA. You're flooring the foe ACC either way (at least if you are slotting properly).
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Umm... good breakdown on the numbers. But two things:
1. KaliMagdalene does have a valid point. Saying "if you slot it properly" doesn't change the point he is making. With a mob cap, you cannot simply floor the Acc of any mob you face. Those who have attacks that break thru high defense, and are themselves higher level foes, will still be able to get in shots. Somebody had also mentioned DE Quartz as an issue, and we have to KNOW that it's floored, since right now that's all we have.
2. No offense, please... but why post this on the Tanker forum? Or for a thread on EA? If you mean to equate Regen Scrappers with Ice Tankers, I think you'll be better off posting in the Regen thread. Ice Tankers are much more akin to SR scrappers then Regen, and they face the same problems we do, with fewer hit points. Changes are ongoing to Regen, and I do not want to see the Regen issue bleed over into our questions with EA and Ice Tanks in general.
Personally, I feel Tanks should be taking the alpha-strike from an AV/Monster (assuming Phantom Army isn't available). Scrappers with enough resistance can do what I can not. Scrappers with no resistance have it even worse then we do now.
Let's see if we can fix up Ice. The devs are obviously watching the regen thread on their own.
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But... it's got nothing to do with Ice Armor or Energy Absorption. So, it really doesn't belong here.
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Archimedes, I see you and I are watching this thread very closely... I thought I'd have the first post back. 
I keep refreshing the Training Room forum, to see if they've patched a new update.
/e reads a book to pass the time
Heh. I work nights and I don't have classes tonight, so I'm basically chilling here (no pun intended).
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But... it's got nothing to do with Ice Armor or Energy Absorption. So, it really doesn't belong here.
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I was getting really confused reading Havoc's post. I think he copied and pasted the wrong post.
I think he meant to copy this one.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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I keep refreshing the Training Room forum, to see if they've patched a new update.
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Now Testing in the Training Room as of 4/13/05:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#2092861
And nothing yet... I suppose there aren't any other major "changes" to powers listed, so we're still in a holding pattern. I do hope we get to test some Ice power changes. Just gotta be patient, I suppose.
lol ... yep ... corrected the post 
... sorry folks chalk it up to my stupidity ... 
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1. KaliMagdalene does have a valid point. Saying "if you slot it properly" doesn't change the point he is making. With a mob cap, you cannot simply floor the Acc of any mob you face. Those who have attacks that break thru high defense, and are themselves higher level foes, will still be able to get in shots. Somebody had also mentioned DE Quartz as an issue, and we have to KNOW that it's floored, since right now that's all we have.
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Ok now that I've fixed the post (man do I feel stupid ).
I'll say it again. If you invest even just a couple of slots the change to EA doesn't matter you floor everything up to +4 levels that EA affects. Play with the linked spreadsheet. The cap doesn't affect anything
Null sheen, Havok. Happens to the best of us.
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Null sheen, Havok. Happens to the best of us.
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That's what happens when you litterally have about 5 pages of analysis on about 6 different AT's and builds
Yeah I'm beating the hell out of various issues I like
Much better post on that one Havok.
I agree, even if I don't have the numbers myself, that Ice feels heavy on endurance. Just a gut feeling on that one, but not really a drawback if we get something better out of it.
But for your contention that Defense scales better then Resistance, I think the numbers support that on the long run. But a fight is all about short-term probibility.
Hit a resistance tanker at 90% resistance with 10,000 points of damage, and they take 1000 points of damage. No attack I know of deals that kind of damage, yet a Inv. Tank would actually survive the attack!
Yes, the Defense heavy Ice tank has a much smaller chance of being hit by that one mega-hit. But we have a 0% chance of surviving it. Level 50 Tanks with perma-hoarfrost don't have half that much in hit points.
In the long run, Defense should even out, and may be better then Resistance. I bet that's why we do just fine vs large packs of +2/+3 mobs, that you would expect to see in invincible level missions. But AV's and Monsters don't attack us 1000 times with a 10k damage attack. They may use it two times a fight. Assuming we manage to floor them at a 5% to hit, against two killer attacks, we have a little less then a 10% chance of being hit by the first or the second. And dead we would be.
Resistance also gives a slower rate of being killed. One mega-hit, and I'm dead. Only a rez brings me back. A Tank hit for 1000 hit points, who survives the mega-hit, may have a healer available, or heal inspirations, to bring them back up to full. Spreading damage over time gives your natual healing rate more time to help you as well. And your spread-sheet lists 6 defense SO's in EA. You mention that 5 is still enough to floor mobs... but looking at the data, you've invested a lot in the defense buff of EA. Level 44 and prior, I had but a single SO of defense in EA. Knowing what may be coming, I've added a few slots of Defense to EA, but with a Defense/Recharge/Endo Red blend. With the cap, I am required to dedicate slots to Defense buff for EA, so I get the most of my 5, instead of just rounding up a few more mobs for a pull.
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Seriously this analysis tells us a few very important things.
<ul type="square">[*]Ice is getting overcharged on the Endurance. It needs an overall endurance cost reduction.[*]Ice is getting short changed Defensively. Against even level foes Ice will take almost 10 times as much damage on average then Resistance. The most common damage sources Ice will almost always take more damage. Now on the rare damage types (Psionics/Toxic/Cold) Ice does do better but there isn't enough of that type of damage to offset the weakness.
[*]Ice I supposed to be the mix of Controller and Tank but unfortunately they only get 2 powers that are supposed to accomplish that Chilling Embrace and Icicles (which isn't really controller like). CE while nice isn't a real CC power and Icicles is a joke. It does squat for damage.
Well lets see:
- I'ld reduce endurance for Ice to a more acceptable level.
- I'ld add 20% Smashing/Lethal RES to Frozen Armor.
- I'ld adjust Icicles so that it becomes a DEF/RES debuff and PBAoE Taunt like Invincibility.
- I'ld also take a long hard look at Permafrost. That power adds no value. I took it completely out of the analysis when I saw how it did nothing for Ice. That power needs replaced or retooled.
Then I'ld step back and see how that worked.
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I'd like to address 2 things from your rather lengthy post:
1) Icicles does not suck. I will fight this point tooth and nail til the end of Ice Tankerdom. Earlier in this thread Circ and I ran some numbers, and there were a few contradicting variations, but Icicles can boost your AoE Dmg by approximately 50%, cut down battle time by 40%, for a 60% increase in endurance. With 6-slotted stamina and +1 to +3 SOs this is very manageable. Icicles provides a huge damage output, and this dmg aura issue is sort of old hat: using the test server data dmg auras have repeatedly been shown to provide the most damage over any extended period of play. My Icicles tick for 20 every time, 28 with build up. Also, you called for an PbAoE taunt on Icicles: it already is a pulse taunt, making it an aura taunt seems weird... If you have never played a character with a dmg aura, or an Ice Tanker with Icicles, I don't feel you can comment well on this power.
2) Frozen Armor should not get the 20% Smash/Lethal Res for two reasons. One, we'd be losing slotting potential for Smash/Lethal. Two, Permafrost needs to be retooled so give it the Res.
Bluefan I'll let you argue Icicles with other Ice tanks then
From a number crunching perspective it's not too tankerish.
Now on to Giving Permafrost Smashing/Lethal ... I thought about it until I thought about RPD. Given the fact that RPD gives 12.5% RES to smashing/lethal and PF already has 30% Cold and 10% Fire you'ld basically have to tank fire and drop cold to 10% res and only give it 10% RES to S/L to balance it against RPD. That's just not valuable enough to balance the scales.
Umm, pardon my French, but what the hell is RPD? And what balance?
Resist Physical Damage, first auto power from the Invulnerability line.
Ahhh, but Invuln gets other powers that boost res. I don't really see it as a balancing issue.
Both Stone and Invul have RPD (Stones is called Stone Skin) both are only 12.5% and offer no other benefit
I fyou could mix and match powers between sets, then making Permafrost ~12% resistance to ice, fire smashing and lethal would be unfair. But in order to get permafrost, you have to be an Ice tank. You have to view the power in the context of the set. I don't think it would necesarilly make Ice tanks overpowered just because they have one power that's better than one specific Inv power.
You don't understand QXFace. Certain rules are applied to Inherint powers (non-toggle/non-click powers that are always applied).
The devs will never make ANY single inherint power that provides more than 40% total RES that doesn't include S/L. It'll never give a power more than 12.5% if there is S/L in the mix.
It's simple as that. You want more than that you need to put it into a click or a toggle.
Frankly I agree. It prevents the pissing and moaning about unequal powers on a power vs. power basis.
I highly suggest that any S/L benefits go into a click or toggle power
I've always tended to try to take on more than I should be able to handle...
A stone tanker friend of mine and I are sort of fans of seeing what our upper limits are. Turns out, 10 +9s can wear him down over the course of about 15-20 minutes, if he doesn't hit EE or respites or is even at keys. I could reliably handle 15 +8s with a 4 slotted Tough, but only for about 10 minutes before I got a little unsure.
These numbers are nuts. Is there any point in the game to being able to handle this level of baddies? Without Tough I would have been so much of a pavement smear- eventually. Cycling Hibernate I'm reasonably sure I could have handled it.
I don't think anyone is going to argue that Ice tanks have major issues handling 'average' bosses, lts, or minions. The problems come in with certain foes who have massive defense debuffs, powers which have self def debuffs (is anyone else thinking Rage is going to screw over Ice tanks now?), massive acc boosts, the horror that is untyped attacks (*cough* toxic *cough*) or psi.
Ice vs regular foes jsut has to deal with the streaky RNG. In an 8 man team, at level 28, I was killed by a single spawn at Unyielding when 2 Tank Swipers and a lt hit me at the same time- with Hoarfrost up. A rare case, yes, but it does happen. It's an inherent weakness that Ice has is that it is entirely reliant on numbers and odds.
As for the change to EA, the problem comes in that some things in the game really do make your defense need to be that high, if defense is all you have. Tanks as a rule don't have the damage capacity to take out a quartz- Energy Transfer aside- before they get nailed hard enough to run or hibernate or use those awakens.
As for Archvillans, it's just stupid, period, that Ice has to go outside it's set for Weave if it wants to have a shot vs psi avs (the def based tanker with no def to something boggles my mind), and needs tough to aviod oneshotting. For the record, while risk is fun, can anyone present an arguement that being oneshotted is at all fun?
I'm not really a fan of the spreadsheets going aruond comparing Ice to Invul, let alone to Stone and Fire. I actually think the other 3 sets are fairly well balanced and set up, but I don't feel that the game is balanced perfectly numerically, nor should it be. I know you're trying to demonstrate the dispairity, but I think it's even easier by listing the holes in various armor types.
Also, to someone who pointed out that Ice tanks are the anti-sappers: not in I4. Stone armor now gets endurance drain resists in the form of Rooted, not to mention Confuse resists.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off a bit negatively, but I'm kind of sick (as in ill) and a bit frustrated. I don't understand what the devs -want- Ice to be, but the current situation is basicly 'fairly good at pvp, worse than every scrapper and tanker set at everything else'. I guess I'd at least like a redname to post -some- reaction, short of Geko's post, which I think most of us can agree is more or less looking at EA in a vaccum.
Btw...congrats Bluefan.
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Ok I posted this in the Tanker Forum but I'm posting it here also.
BTW Kali there is virtually no way for you to tell the difference between the old EA and the new EA. You're flooring the foe ACC either way (at least if you are slotting properly).
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I have six slots in FA and WI, and five slots in GA. I currently have two slots (recharge) in EA because I wanted to get a sense for how the power feels on Live before slotting +Def into it. My next level (31) will see three more slots into it to make up the difference.
I don't feel that I am always flooring villain accuracy. There are occasions, even after using EA, where I get hit an awful lot. This doesn't happen as often if I hit a large crowd with EA. Against stuff even-level to me, sure. Against what my team actually fights? (Invincible missions, 6-8 team members) It seems less likely.
I mean, if I get into a crowd of villains, hit EA, hit 4-5 of them, and then the boss (Council Archon seems the most common in this scenario) chains three hits on me. Is that floored accuracy?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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1. KaliMagdalene does have a valid point. Saying "if you slot it properly" doesn't change the point he is making. With a mob cap, you cannot simply floor the Acc of any mob you face. Those who have attacks that break thru high defense, and are themselves higher level foes, will still be able to get in shots. Somebody had also mentioned DE Quartz as an issue, and we have to KNOW that it's floored, since right now that's all we have.
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She, but thank you for the support.
I have the most trouble with Council, with their defense-debuffing bullets and the prevalence of flamethrowers (plenty of them in large spawns).
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Ok I posted this in the Tanker Forum but I'm posting it here also.
... as levels increase Ice does shorten the gap between the two. Since +0 to +4 is the range the Devs balance off of we need to keep that in mind when we make our arguements. Now remember I'm talking about scaling here. The rate of improvement for Defense is insufficient to catch the lead an Invul Tank already has.[*]Ice I supposed to be the mix of Controller and Tank but unfortunately they only get 2 powers that are supposed to accomplish that Chilling Embrace and Icicles (which isn't really controller like). CE while nice isn't a real CC power and Icicles is a joke. It does squat for damage.[/list]
BTW Kali there is virtually no way for you to tell the difference between the old EA and the new EA. You're flooring the foe ACC either way (at least if you are slotting properly).
Here's a copy for you:
The following Analysis is heavily based on the shoulders of research done by Circeus and Archemedes. I've simply pulled numbers out and rearranged it. Big thanks to Circeus for the work he did and the assistance on helping me clean this data up.
For the basis of the research I'm comparing the following build to the Superman Build given in my signiture. I have attempted to keep the builds as similar as I could. Of course that's not 100% possible.
Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers: Ice Armor
Secondary Powers: Super Strength
01 : Jab dam(01)
01 : Frozen Armor endred(01) endred(3) defbuf(3) defbuf(5) defbuf(5) defbuf(13)
02 : Chilling Embrace endred(02)
04 : Taunt tntdur(04)
06 : Wet Ice endred(06) defbuf(7) defbuf(7) defbuf(9) defbuf(9) defbuf(11)
08 : Air Superiority dam(08) dam(48) dam(48) dam(48) dam(50)
10 : Hasten recred(10) recred(11) recred(13) recred(15) recred(17) recred(19)
12 : Haymaker dam(12) dam(15) dam(17) dam(34) dam(34) dam(34)
14 : Super Speed runspd(14)
16 : Hurdle jmp(16)
18 : Glacial Armor endred(18) defbuf(19) defbuf(21) defbuf(21) defbuf(23) defbuf(25)
20 : Knockout Blow dam(20) dam(23) dam(31) dam(33) dam(33) dam(33)
22 : Health hel(22)
24 : Stamina endrec(24) endrec(25) endrec(27) endrec(29) endrec(31) endrec(31)
26 : Energy Absorption defbuf(26) defbuf(27) defbuf(29) defbuf(42) defbuf(42) defbuf(43)
28 : Icicles endred(28) dam(43) dam(43) dam(46) dam(50)
30 : Rage recred(30)
32 : Punch dam(32) dam(37) dam(37) dam(37) dam(40) dam(42)
35 : Hoarfrost recred(35) recred(36) recred(36) recred(36)
38 : Foot Stomp dam(38) dam(39) dam(39) dam(39) dam(40) dam(40)
41 : Hibernate recred(41)
44 : Conserve Power recred(44) recred(45) recred(45) recred(45) recred(46) recred(46)
47 : Laser Beam Eyes dam(47)
49 : Energy Torrent dam(49) dam(50)
-------------------------------------------
01 : Brawl Empty(01)
01 : Sprint Empty(01)
02 : Rest Empty(02)
Perma-Powers:
Hasten
Hoar Frost
Near Perma-Powers:
Conserve Power
Toggle Powers:
Frozen Armor
Chilling Embrace
Wet Ice
Glacial Armor
Icicles (Optional)
Endurance
Recovery Rate: 3.01 End/Sec
Loss Rate: 1.27 End/Sec w/out Icicles 2.0 End/Sec w/ Icicles*
Net Recovery Rate: 1.74 End/Sec w/out Icles 1.01 End/Sec w/ Icicles
*NOTE: According to Circeus the end cost on Icicles is higher then the value given. It instead is an additional 0.5 end/sec. This further shows the endurance cost disadvantage that Ice suffers from.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Endurance Comparison
Lets compare the Endurance recovery rate first. Without even taking into account Icicles Ice has to run 1 additional Defensive Toggle to be operating at the optimal defensive level. That is an inherint disadvantage. To get peak performance I had to introduce Endurance Reducers in powers that Ice does not. Even then Invul recovers endurance at a faster rate. Endurance is clearly an issue that Ice has to deal with. Considering the endurance problems I have with my Invul tank I definately feel for Ice here.
Raw Survivability
Ok there is no way for me to measure and computate Alpha Strike Deaths (those deaths caused by almost every attack from a foe coming in simultaneously and hitting successfully). Ice indeed has to fear the Alpha Strike.
The Analysis Spreadsheet!
This spreadsheet is probably the single most comprehensive head to head analysis of elite builds to date. In order to simulate real gaming situations I utilized a rounding situation.
I assumed 50 badguys in a single pull (40 Minions, 8 Lts, 2 Bosses), this is to show a moderate pull for most tanks. I assumed that there is a 2.5% decrease in effectiveness for Chilling Embrace per +1 of the mob over the level of the heroe. I ran the analysis from 0 to +4. We'll also assume that all foes are in Melee range. Yes this is a slight advantage for Invul (with the way Invince works) but that's fair since we fight at melee range and should round as such.
To fully take into account possible situations I ran the analysis for each damage type. Now this is a slight variance from reality because we all know that the 40+ game is full of mixed damage but it is too hard to properly model a mixed damage situation. However I think the impact of this on the Analysis is minute since we have the numbers for each individual damage type.
So pop open that link and lets look at what we see.
1) You'll see a quick list of what assumptions we made.
2) We'll see next the break down of Ice Resists/Defenses. These are intially listed as a base value then as an adjusted value that takes into account the # of foes we are facing and the enhancers we have slotted.
3) Below that we see a Breakdown of Invul's Resists/Defenses. Like Ice there are two sets Base and Adjusted.
4) Next we see a breakdown of our test pool. These are our Minions/Lts/Bosses. Now ACC boosts are based on 5% per level. I treat the foes as doing 10 (you can do it with them doing any number you desire) successful strikes so we can look at a time slice vs a single attack.
5) Now we get to the real paydirt. I am giving on average the amount of damage you'ld take as an Ice Tank if all 50 did a specific damage type for a given level. For example: if you are Ice and were fighting 50 foes all +2 levels who did pure Fire Damage (and matched all our other criteria) then you'ld take 1382.4 pts of fire damage over the 10 attack string from all 50 foes.
6) Like Ice we now see the same breakdown for Invul!
7) Finally we hit the most important tables. These are the key tables. They tells us how effective Ice is compared to Invul at a given foe level range and damage type (i.e. how much more damage does Ice take then Invul for Smashing/Lethal against 50 +0 foes, how much more effective is Ice over Invul against Cold attacks, etc)
Mr. Havok sir what does it all mean?
I'm glad you asked Timmy ...
Seriously this analysis tells us a few very important things.
<ul type="square">[*]Ice is getting overcharged on the Endurance. It needs an overall endurance cost reduction.[*]Ice is getting short changed Defensively. Against even level foes Ice will take almost 6 times as much damage on average then Resistance. The most common damage sources Ice will almost always take more damage. Now on the rare damage types (Psionics/Toxic/Cold) Ice does do better but there isn't enough of that type of damage to offset the weakness.[*]For the +0 to +4 range DEFENSE SCALES AS WELL OR BETTER THEN RESISTANCE. Yep that's contrary to popular belief but I've ran this analysis before and always came to the same conclusion. Until you start looking at the really big +8's to +10's Defense is actually superior to RES at scaling due to the hard cap on RES and Damage scaling faster then ACC does. You may not like it but the numbers show it
As extra fun after seeing these numbers I decided to run a comparison between Invul Scrappers and Ice Tanks. I slotted Invincibility slightly higher because of the lower RES cap on Invul Scrappers and what a shock but Ice Tanks are owned by Invul Scrappers in Melee Range! You can see the analysis here: Ice Tank vs. Invul Scrapper
Eventually I'll get around to doing more X vs. Y analysis. I know Stone Tanks are compariable to Invul so doing Ice vs. Stone would kind of be moot but a DA Scrapper vs. an Invul Scrapper might be fun
Mr. Havok sir what would you do?
Timmy your questions make your mommy proud!
Well lets see:
<ul type="square">[*]I'ld reduce endurance for Ice to a more acceptable level.[*]I'ld add 20% Smashing/Lethal RES to Frozen Armor.[*]I'ld adjust Icicles so that it becomes a DEF/RES debuff and PBAoE Taunt like Invincibility.[*]I'ld also take a long hard look at Permafrost. That power adds no value. I took it completely out of the analysis when I saw how it did nothing for Ice. That power needs replaced or retooled.[/list]
Then I'ld step back and see how that worked.