Bluefan

Haven't finished Leery's second arc yet, but I have fought both Ice Mistral and Wretch, so you might want to star his second arc.

MooMoo you've only been with this game since March. Having been on since closed beta for CoH, and in closed beta for CoV, I've seen quadruple the updates you have, and none of them have been crippling. Every single update some AT has whined their pants off, and yet I still keep playing all 5 ATs exactly the same in CoH, and they all work exceptionally well in different ways. I team with a fire tanker regularly and he appears to tank quite well covered in fire (hence his fire tank title). I team with scrappers regularly, and have a scrapper, they seem to scrap to my delight. So calm down and just the play the game. Almost two years and I've never seen an unplayable build (well, maybe Trick Arrow ), much less an unplayable AT.

A bit off-topic, but I just tried my first 2 pvp matches ever on Test. I did two 1 vs 2 matches, me being the one. First against a fire/??? blaster, second against illusion/??? controller. Second match against nrg/ice blaster and a warshade. Totally womped them all. It was a total blast! And yes, I need to try fighting other archtypes.

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All you need to know is that you can handle any AV just fine and dandy (with 6 slot Tough) except Mother Mayhem, Anti-Matter, and Infernal. Besides those 3, tank away my friend, tank away. My level 50 Ice Tanker had a blast in those 10 levels, an utter blast.

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I respectfully disagree with the suggestion that only 3 AVs would provide difficulty at that point.

Psychic Clockwork King, Vanessa DeVore, and Malaise all use hefty amounts of Psionic attacks. I also remember Nosferatu as being an auto-hit nightmare of an Archvillain, with psionic and dark energy damage.

In the event that you do _not_ have Tough (which was the case with my Ice Tanker), the list of troublesome AVs gets even longer. Shadowhunter and Bobcat both provided me with new definitions of pain, I assure you...

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Whoops, sorry. Ya, Malaise and Psy CW King hurt bad. But to all you people who said Jurrasik and Adamstor, those are monsters. Hatched Kraken... ummm.... yawn, talk about easy. Vanessa Devore is one of only 3 AVs I have never fought, so no comment. Envoy was a bit tough, but with a regen aura I was fine. Oh ya, Nosferatu is one of the three easiest AVs I have ever fought. Ever. I think my defender could tank him.

All you need to know is that you can handle any AV just fine and dandy (with 6 slot Tough) except Mother Mayhem, Anti-Matter, and Infernal. Besides those 3, tank away my friend, tank away. My level 50 Ice Tanker had a blast in those 10 levels, an utter blast.

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2) Permafrost gained 10% to smash/lethal/cold/fire


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Bluefan while I'm hardcore for a buff to Ice I'm telling you this will never happen.

If smashing and lethal are involved the max total RES for inherint powers will be 25% unenhanced (12.5% for Smashing and 12.5% for Lethal).

If they are not involved then the max is 40% combined total RES (Cold, Fire, Energy, Negative, Toxic).

You won't get more than that nor should you. It's a balance rule that applies to each tanker set. Add the RES to an underperforming Toggle.

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Oy, sorry sorry sorry. Fine, 7.5% Smash/Lethal 5% Fire/Cold.

I don't like the idea of res in one of our defense toggles.

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Problem here lies in the fact that minion acc and boss/av acc differs so much.
They can't just raise the toggle +def values, because that would make it to easy to floor minions. While against AV's with high acc, ice tankers (and toggle SR) gets hit way way to much.

My suggestion? Make EA work better against more powerful foes.
It currently gives +18.75% def / mob , draing from a max of 5 mobs (on test).
How about 18.75% from minions, but higher from others up to 30% from an archvillain.
That would give us help against the tough bosses/AV's.

This would however not remove the problem of oneshotting.
Ice tankers needs less weaknesses as compensation.
The psi-weakness we will keep, nothing will change that most likely.
Removing the weakness to toxic/fire would be a good start.

How about: same defense to everything except psi.
Keep the cold resist on the toggles.
Temp-protection changes name (to something like, frozen skin or such)
and becomes 10% fire/lethal/smash resist.

a slight resist would really make a world of difference.
If we can avoid one-shotting only the unlucky streak will be a major drawback, but as a +def based set that's unavoidable.

Remeber that CE really DOES mitigate damage on the long term.

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These are probably the best solutions I've seen on this thread. I think Ice Tankers stand one hell of a chance of being completely fixed if:

1) EA scaled based on underlings/minions/lts/bosses/monsters/AVs
2) Permafrost gained 10% to smash/lethal/cold/fire
3) CE could take two routes: A) My preference would be for a major increase in the attack rate reduction of enemies; there doesn't have to be a new attack rate reduction enhancement, but CE's effect should be increased to maybe 30% (not sure what it's at right now); or B) a Damage or Accuracy Debuff. Or maybe but the Dmg or Acc Debuff on Icicles, so it has to hit, and also have an increase in CE's attack rate reduction.

I'd really like to see numbers 1 and 3 happen. Just the other day I was talking to my friend who played EQ2 and he said his guild couldn't do a raid because their guildmate with slow wasn't on. I had to double-take because he said Slow. I was like, "Is slow that good in EQ2?" And he replies, "Dude! It's 30 to 40% less damage taken, it's the difference between easy win and group wipe." Then I silently weeped inside because I have never even given slow on my Ice Tanker or Spines scrapper a second thought.

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Few notes for those not keeping up with I4:

Slotting up Health might well become more viable. Since I've noticed quite a few ice tankers already suggest taking and slotting up this power, this is more just a 'good to know' thing than a major change. It will obviously affect Stone and Invul the same as it effects Ice (assuming perma HP boosting).

I hereby withdraw my earlier statements with regards to Ice armor and pvp, which I never intended to be a justification for the lack of buffage/downgrading of EA. Ice's complete lack of resistance to Fear and Confuse means that if an Ice tank EAs up, one fear and they're going to be a nice juicy detoggle target in 30 seconds, when EA wears off. Focused Accuracy also gives us more than a few issues- but that power comes at a pretty high cost, and we have Hibernate.

I'm sure not many of the people reading this thread have any interest in playing an ice tank teh uber build in pvp, and I myself will probably abandon the arena when it goes live (unless some fairly drastic changes are made), but that's another story. And I'm avoiding mentioning the fairly large amount of psi damage being thrown about, which of course we can't handle well.

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What I've found is nice about Ice is there are plenty of slots to go around. I have Health, Hoarfrost, and Tough 6 slotted. So I am constantly at 2900 hp (with accolades) and have pretty noticeable regen. On your pvp comment, Fear and Confuse should never last 30 sec. That's what makes Ice so appealing in PvP: we can get hit with one of those 2 effects, but if we got EA off we're the only tanker set that is safe while mezzed. And on your psychic comment, only Stone is safe there. I think Dark/Psy Defenders are going to wreak utter havoc in PvP.

Ahhh, but Invuln gets other powers that boost res. I don't really see it as a balancing issue.

Umm, pardon my French, but what the hell is RPD? And what balance?

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Seriously this analysis tells us a few very important things.
<ul type="square">[*]Ice is getting overcharged on the Endurance. It needs an overall endurance cost reduction.[*]Ice is getting short changed Defensively. Against even level foes Ice will take almost 10 times as much damage on average then Resistance. The most common damage sources Ice will almost always take more damage. Now on the rare damage types (Psionics/Toxic/Cold) Ice does do better but there isn't enough of that type of damage to offset the weakness.
[*]Ice I supposed to be the mix of Controller and Tank but unfortunately they only get 2 powers that are supposed to accomplish that Chilling Embrace and Icicles (which isn't really controller like). CE while nice isn't a real CC power and Icicles is a joke. It does squat for damage.

Well lets see:

• I'ld reduce endurance for Ice to a more acceptable level.
• I'ld add 20% Smashing/Lethal RES to Frozen Armor.
• I'ld adjust Icicles so that it becomes a DEF/RES debuff and PBAoE Taunt like Invincibility.
• I'ld also take a long hard look at Permafrost. That power adds no value. I took it completely out of the analysis when I saw how it did nothing for Ice. That power needs replaced or retooled.

Then I'ld step back and see how that worked.

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I'd like to address 2 things from your rather lengthy post:

1) Icicles does not suck. I will fight this point tooth and nail til the end of Ice Tankerdom. Earlier in this thread Circ and I ran some numbers, and there were a few contradicting variations, but Icicles can boost your AoE Dmg by approximately 50%, cut down battle time by 40%, for a 60% increase in endurance. With 6-slotted stamina and +1 to +3 SOs this is very manageable. Icicles provides a huge damage output, and this dmg aura issue is sort of old hat: using the test server data dmg auras have repeatedly been shown to provide the most damage over any extended period of play. My Icicles tick for 20 every time, 28 with build up. Also, you called for an PbAoE taunt on Icicles: it already is a pulse taunt, making it an aura taunt seems weird... If you have never played a character with a dmg aura, or an Ice Tanker with Icicles, I don't feel you can comment well on this power.

2) Frozen Armor should not get the 20% Smash/Lethal Res for two reasons. One, we'd be losing slotting potential for Smash/Lethal. Two, Permafrost needs to be retooled so give it the Res.

Thank you Kid and Runhilde, means a lot. Ice tankers rock the casbah for sure. And ya, I'll look you up Kid. My Global Chat is @Bluefan.

Oyyyyyyyyyyy.

That really sucks....

I am officially on your side guys about Ice Tankers needing a fix. I think the targets have to be Hibernate, Permafrost, and either CE or Icicles for some sort of Damage Mitigation.

I play all on Victory, but my SG has a brother SG on Freedom, so maybe I'll start a char on there.

This is a bit off topic but:

I HIT 50 TODAY!!! Heh, I'm one of the few 50 Ice tankers now, and it feels damn good. We rock (to some extent).

The Foot Stomp is nowhere near an auto-hit power. I can handle (or I did back at lvl 37-41) +2-5 Krakens, and his foot stomp hit me maybe once a fight. His toxic attack hit me twice: once when I aggroed him, 2nd time when he came just outside of melee range after I pulled him. Then he could stomp, smash, and hit as many times as he wanted, I only died once from a Kraken.

I've Kraken farmed a good dozen times and have only died once from a Kraken. Weird. Maybe I'm just uncannily lucky, but I breezed through those overgrown sewage pests.

Anyways, Archimedes, I'd like to take a look at that spreadsheet too. Us 3 and several others need to bolster and unite the Ice Tanker coalition.

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My ice tank is only a baby still, but I've got a question/suggestion.

What if they cut the timer on hoarfrost in half? More accurately, to the point where if you choose, you could perma double stack it without using hasten? That or raise the amount of HP it gives by 20 or 30. How much would having 40-80% more HP help?

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Currently, the boost number with Hoarfrost is 28.57% (1863.3 up to 2608.6). If it was upped to 70%, my (current) hp would boost to 3167.61. AV's could still one shot me...just much, much less.
Halfing the recharge time (I have 2 recharge SO's in it already...so maybe more to stack it) and then stacking it, with the 70%, would give 5384.94 hit points for a limited time. That might give us something to set us apart from the other sets a little more.

What other ideas have there been so far? Let's get a list going:[*]Keep EA the way it is (or better it). [*]Put a dmg and/or resistance debuff on a power of ours. (preferably an autohit)[*]Put an acc/def debuff onto a power of ours. (preferably an auto hit)[*]Maybe make Icicles autohit? [*]Let one of our powers give us some psi, along with s/l, dmg resistance.[*]Make Hibernate a wee bit more useful than a giant invulnerable popsicle. IE - Let Icicles or CE get out still...maybe as a punishment for said use let us not be invulernable but just give very high Def and Res (to all).[*]Bump either hoarfrost's recharge time, +max hp, or both[*]Seeing how we're in a block of ice, def or res to psi isn't very role-playingish. What if EA, instead of just giving def to all but psi, would give defense to whatever it was we EA'd? Ie - you EA mobs with psionic/energy attacks, you now have defense to both. You EA mobs with s/l/toxic attacks, you now have defense to all three.[/list]
almost lvl 49 Ice/Ice

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Ummm, no. Hoarfrost is a straight 40% increase in your base hp.

Great posts everyone. I'm running out of stuff to nitpick and debate on, but I'd like to thank all you high Ice tanks out there. I hit 47 tonight, so I'm chugging my way to be one of the few 50 Ice tanks within 2 weeks.

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Reading your post, points out what worries me about putting the Damage Debuff in Icicles. With Icicles, I have a miss chance, per attack tick. So, if I drop 3 SO acc into it, and close to range, and hope like hell I don't get that 5% miss, I'd be fine. Otherwise, I'd be no better off, since he'd not be debuffed. And what about later, if it misses mid-battle, and he slams on me a few times. I think Tanks deserve a "sure thing" when it comes to bread &amp; butter powers that keep them alive.

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JJ, it's not like Icicles' Damage Debuff would wear off between hits, it's effect would last for atleast 2 more ticks. Then if it misses you have to hope the next one hits, which is good because then the power has its downsides, just like all powers should.

I'm with Circ on this one: I will not stand for a proposed change to be Dmg Res of any sort for Ice Tankers. I like being the Defense black sheep. I do however really like the idea of maybe a DefDebuff on Chilling Embrace and a Damage Debuff on Icicles (or the other way around) with increased Fire resistance for Permafrost and Psy Def for EA. Along with normal aggro and Enddrain abilities to all targets within EA's range, I think this would be a great fix to the Ice set.

I want to see what Geko has to say about our suggestions/data.

Guys, my post was about fire damage. F. I. R. E. Everyone here knows I have Tough, we've established that. We've established that Ice has no Smash/Lethal rec, that my opinions are somewhat skewed, etc etc. And Circ, I'm a bit ashamed, just a few posts ago you affirmed the fact that we can hit the def cap with ease from hitting 5 enemies, so 5 or 40, it doesn't really matter. My fact was that Fire is not a problem; that was one of the things brought up way back when, and I'm just making a segway back to it. The issues still are, and always will be: Smash/Lethal Res, Psy Def/Res, Hibernate, Icicles (for you guys atleast), and whatever else we feel like bickering about.

Meh.

As to all those old fire damage argument, I did the infernal mish tonight as the only tank, fighting lvl 49s, I was 46. I tanked about 50 of them, a nice blend of minions and lts, a few bosses, and of course Inf. I never dropped below half life. Too bad we had no damage base and my whole team died trying to destroy the altar. Always a sad ending....

Strange, that is a pretty bad idea for a power, I'm sorry.

Anyways, Circ, my point still remains that you should always take your AoE tanker secondary power AND Icicles, as it really boosts your damage and battle rate for an endurance cost that I feel is quite reasonable.

Also, I think I could live with the End Drain and Taunt only affecting 5 enemies if I received 2-3 endurance per enemy I hit.

As to the small string of Bobcat comments, I've fought Bobcat 3 times, once when she was 3 levels above me, and twice when she was 2 levels above me. I had 5 slotted Tough and didnt die once. Sure, I came a bit close, but nothing worrisome.

Between levels 1 and 40 I averaged about 3 deaths per 10 levels. I didn't get my first debt badge until lvl 38. I've gotten to lvl 46 in 2 months. I love Ice . But then again, I like to play the defensive sets no one likes, aka Ice and Dark Armor. My Scrapper may run through end faster than anyone, and at only lvl 35 I still don't have enough slots and can drop like a fly, but I kill faster than any scrapper around.