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Things have slowed down on this thread, and I assume you are all waiting for the next batch of changes, as I am. PVP is sure to garner a good number of "patches" so they can get realistic data. I hope that we see a proposed Ice change in the same batch, so we can test it out against AV's and Monsters (like the H. Kraken).
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Yeah... basically that's where I've been on this for about a week now. I'm really ready to see some proposed changes at this point as there's really not a whole lot more I can say/do to help demonstrate/isolate the problems with the set at this point.
Ok, I didn't really read the majority of the pages on this thread, but I have a feeling they are going to be similiar what Im about to say, but I'll post anyway:
Just made an ice Tanker....hes at 19 right now...he seems alright, I made him full well knowing he was a gimp, the worst of the worst tank primaries, and one of the worst powersets in the game. The only good power in the set really was energy absorption, and even then, getting hit would kill me, but I like a good challenge, what can I say.
That being said... why is a set that already sucks being nerfed!?
Whats next, double the endurance cost on all DA toggles? How about making the powers in the Blaster fire secondary deal damage to yourself as well! Maybe half the mez duration on all mind control powers, how about making Dispersion shield not have a graphic and halve the defense it gives (not saying FF is really a bad set, but it only has 2 great powers, a good power, then a situational power, then 5 absolutely worthless powers).
Maybe they should work on making what sucks better instead of making what sucks suck even more eh? So what if Energy Absorption was good, theres always a 1/20 chance to hit an ice tanker, no matter what, I think, considering the resistances ice tanks get, they should damn well be capped even to +8 mobs so long as they are built right. This set needs to be fixed, not nerfed.
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Ok, I didn't really read the majority of the pages on this thread, but I have a feeling they are going to be similiar what Im about to say, but I'll post anyway:
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Welcome to the club Darkdrium. 
You're right, a set that has issues doesn't need to be further handicapped. The best we can tell, EA as a stand-alone power is too good. Thus the Devs want to bring it back down a few notches, so the power is not abused.
This change has little to do with the problems Ice tankers face, only that a single power we have could be exploited. We're trying to take a place on the Training Room stage, and politely request fixes to the Ice Tank line.
Glad to have you sir. Pull up a chair. Drink on the rocks?
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You're right, a set that has issues doesn't need to be further handicapped. The best we can tell, EA as a stand-alone power is too good. Thus the Devs want to bring it back down a few notches, so the power is not abused.
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No, its not too good, its just right. Its other ice powers that need a boost. EA is just the one that makes the set workable.
Once again ill ask. HOW is it being abused? Its obvious we cant tank AVs with it. Even with the EA change proposal we can floor +0 mob accuracy against us. Also with higher and higher lvl mobs we need increasingly more mobs to drain with EA to get our 95% defence, which balances with the fact that higher lvl mobs sneaking hits through do much more damage and we have no +res. Its working as intended. This doesnt take into account that we take alphas alot or that often because we havent the time to wait for many mobs to get close we fire off EA on only a few mobs to start and take more hits (since it didnt max DEF with too few yet) til it recycles. Only after all this sometimes can we floor mob to-hit at 5%.
Oh and yes we ice tanks are good at hibernating til we feel the need to shatter the silence. So, yes we are patiently waiting, hoping Geko repeals our EA change.
I think the power is fine the way it is. As far as abuse, we can't really do that. Even if I managed to get a ton of enemies together, there is always that cap on our max defense. No matter what, everything has a 1 in 20 chance to hit us. We need to reach higher than 100% a lot of the time just to be able to stand up to various things like buffs, debuffs, increased accuracy due to con level, etc. Until other powers in the set are fixed, I think EA needs to be left as is.
There is also the streak-breaker code to consider. It isn't supposed to be a factor, but it would explain things if it was. I'm not sure if it is based off the pc or individual npcs. If it is based on the PC, it seems like it would rear it's ugly head especially for ice tanks. It would explain the "streak" that seems to happen to us so often when suddenly everyone around us gets off a hit at the same time. It is like going through the alpha-strike again after we have our defense up as high as we can get it.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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I think the power is fine the way it is. As far as abuse, we can't really do that. Even if I managed to get a ton of enemies together, there is always that cap on our max defense. No matter what, everything has a 1 in 20 chance to hit us.
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Let me say that my post was what I think the "Dev" position on the power is, and why they are looking to change it.
Personally? No, EA doesn't need changed... You want a cap? Try 10 mobs. Let me bottom out the Accuracy of AV's and Monsters, and let me worry about finding 10 more mobs to use for it. It's the least we can have for now.
I have yet to hear the tale of a level 30 Tanker, with 6 slotted EA, pulling groups of 50-75 mobs at level +9. Yeah... 5% chance to hit, so he can tank ANYTHING! Not even close. He'd be hit two or three times, and dead from the massive damage he's not resisting.
Back in the days of Perma-Unstoppable, that would have been workable for an Invulnerability Tank. Now, perhaps even Stone with some help.
I don't think the changes are needed, and I don't think the power works nearly as well now. I want to be sure in a larger group, that I've bottomed their chance to hit.
Sigh so I played my Ice tank again last night. Mostly to join in on a Hamidon run. Not that I end up doing all that much.
Anyway some SG mates and I decide to fight some of the nearby monsters after Hami's been taken care of. First one goes ok.
2nd and 3rd ones not so good. Thorn and the big mushroom, these were level 48-49 range. I hit Hoarfrost with WI, CE, Icicles, Tough and GA on. Rush in to hit EA, and I die before it goes off (Thorn hit me for 500+, Shroom for 1300+ and 500+ plus some additional damage running up).
Died a second time before we could take both of them out. Granted we should not have gone after 2 at once, but a team of 6 with 4 people at 50 (2 controllers, defender and blaster) I thought we'd have done better (at least 1 controller died twice as well).
Anyway so I wasn't 1-shotted but 3 hits in a row sucks. Highlights EA's weakness as well.
on Virtue:
Darkennedy dark/sonic Def
Lena Slayer NightWidow
Vengeful Woman Energy/Rad Corruptor
Hella Effing Cool cold/sonic def
Just a note directing everyone here: Ice Armor Bug and Fix Update (04-07-2005)
Note that there have been no changes on the bug front for Ice Armor since the 3/25 patch.
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I think the power is fine the way it is. As far as abuse, we can't really do that. Even if I managed to get a ton of enemies together, there is always that cap on our max defense. No matter what, everything has a 1 in 20 chance to hit us. We need to reach higher than 100% a lot of the time just to be able to stand up to various things like buffs, debuffs, increased accuracy due to con level, etc. Until other powers in the set are fixed, I think EA needs to be left as is.
There is also the streak-breaker code to consider. It isn't supposed to be a factor, but it would explain things if it was. I'm not sure if it is based off the pc or individual npcs. If it is based on the PC, it seems like it would rear it's ugly head especially for ice tanks. It would explain the "streak" that seems to happen to us so often when suddenly everyone around us gets off a hit at the same time. It is like going through the alpha-strike again after we have our defense up as high as we can get it.
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Wow, amen to that. EA is our saving grace, not an abusive power. It's what keeps us alive, toe-to-toe with other tanks (so to speak.)
It's been said that Ice/*, but Ice/Ice specifically, is more of a "controlling" tank. Sure, I can keep all their attention...other tanks can too, but buff/debuffs? The higher you go, the less and less affective slow powers appear. 1) we need many mobs to hit our high defense % (to stay alive fighting monsters, AV's, and generally everything). Slowing down 15, 20, 25...etc, mobs...I've never noticed the amount of damage done slowed down. They punch slower, they recharge slower (supposedly....doesn't seem that way at times), but they still get in hits. And almost always enough.
When I hit 32ish, I realized I could solo unyielding missions (with plenty of inspirations.) When I hit 42ish, I realized I could solo invincible missions (again, with plenty of inspirations). I rarely used CE past 32 solo, unless I was on a team with a defender that had a +recover power. I never noticed it helping. I still got hit as much. I still got "the streak", hit after hit after hit....even with EA'ing big mobs.
I think we all agree that instead of hurting a power that's great the way it is (one of our few handy powers defense-wise), the Dev's should concentrate more on fixing the other problematic powers we have.
Hibernate - as much as I love it, all the other tank have(had?) a really "realistic" power. Unstoppable, Granite Armor, and Rise of the Pheonix.
Unstoppable - sounds good for "invincible" (ya'll know what it does, right?)
Granite Armor - i love that power, I wish I could tank as good as that. I watched a Stone tank solo a kraken.
Rise of the Pheonix - self rez, burns foes. Literally, rising from the ashes.
And now Hibernate - we're encased in ice solid enough to make us untouchable. Nothing in, nothing out. I like this power, really I do. But when I hit that power my teammates are all as good as dead. It's like I'm signing 6-7 people up for their deaths when I used it in a fight. Sure, the aggro stays on you for a little bit - but anybody not seeing you do that will keep attacking, and the whole mobs shifts.
Now, think about it - you are encased in ice solid enough to resist any force coming at it....that Ice better be pretty friggin cold to do so. Wouldn't the area directly around that near 0 K ice be stinking cold too?
What i'm saying is....why not give Hibernate a minor slow (basically, a small CE) around it? Let us keep aggro - but let Hibernate not be toggled, let it be timed. That way we can't stay in our fortress of solitude as an "oh crap!" power, but something to keep us alive during those initial alpha strike and hard hits....yet still keeping all our squishy teammates alive.
An SG-mate of mine is a killer emp/elec defender. One of the best healers I know. It's cause of him I was able to go through so many DE...among other accuracy or -def mbos. I think Ice tankers can only reach their full potential when teaming with healers (def or controller - as long as they have +end rec and +healing) - wherein other tanks don't need teammates to be as, or more, affective.
Why the need has arrived to pick on the weakest of tanks, I don't know. Ice tanks are not overpowered and can only reach the same tanking ability as other tanks when with teammates.
I love what you guys (Devs and such) are doing with CoH. But Ice is the only tank I've heard of to be kicked off a team simply because of our power sets - that means any changes that need to be made to us should be giving us fixes, helping us..etc, not taking away.
And to be honest.... I get tired of people telling me they feel sorry for me and other Ice/* tanks out there. They recognize we are the most problematic (ie - weakest) set, and need some lovin. Although I do find the tells that go along the lines of, "Ohh...an Ice/Ice tank. You're a brave one. Crazy too." Hilarious.
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Well, aparently both the ice tankers got together and managed to tank something, so the Devs felt it was time for a nerf.
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I did not think that both the Ice tankers were on the same server. They must have gotten together on test.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
This is a bit off topic but:
I HIT 50 TODAY!!! Heh, I'm one of the few 50 Ice tankers now, and it feels damn good. We rock (to some extent).
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I HIT 50 TODAY!!!
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congratulations!!!
Congrats man... What server are you on?
I'm inching closer to 50 myself. Just hit 45.
I play all on Victory, but my SG has a brother SG on Freedom, so maybe I'll start a char on there.
To bring this post back on topic...
I couldn't come up with an Ice vs Fire spreadsheet. Burn presents too much of an 'X Factor', since I don't know how to get it to fit. And it can't be ignored, since the fact that the Burn patches are, essentially, an indirect method of damage mitigation (ie enemies die quickly, thus being unable to attempt to attack a fire tanker). So for now, I've put that aside.
But while I was doing that, a really depressing thought came to me.
What's purple, accessible to anyone at level 40, and easily obtained over and over?
Kora Fruit. 50% defense with a click of a button. No endurance cost, and the defense remains until the time expires, so it can't be lost with toggle drop.
In essense, anyone can have better than Ice Tanker defenses with just 2 of these; and since they're guarenteed to be found in this mission, and with the mission being infinitely repeatable... well, do I really need to go on?
*sigh* Yet another kick in the pants for Ice Tankers. 
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Kora Fruit. 50% defense with a click of a button. No endurance cost, and the defense remains until the time expires, so it can't be lost with toggle drop.
In essense, anyone can have better than Ice Tanker defenses with just 2 of these; and since they're guarenteed to be found in this mission, and with the mission being infinitely repeatable... well, do I really need to go on?
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In essence, yes, anybody could have as good or better defense then we do. I must play devil's advocate, and say there is nothing to stop us from using them as well... Our "advantage", is that we get to use that defense 100% of the time. I'm not sure a Fire Tank, with 25 Big Defense inspos, could finish a full mission burning 2 at a time. Even 1 at a time may not make the whole mission, on longer, multi-floor missions, or "rescue 8 people" type missions...
But your point is no less valid. A fire tank with good resistance, could easily use 2 inspos at a time for an AV or Monster, and never use thru all of them by the time the fight is over. They'd have our level of defense, but the resistance to take anything that does manage to get thru.
I wonder how things would change with resistance inspos? Likely, you'd see squishies playing melee a lot more. Blasters would pop a Defense/Resistance, and rush in to punch mobs in the face. Who knows...
The limiting factors here, are being level 40, and the number of inspos you can hold. Do we need to nerf Insperations? I hope not.
I can't speak on the effect for Fire Tankers. But I can for Invulnerability Tankers, thanks to my spreadsheet.
With just one Kora Fruit, an Invulnerability Tanker becomes almost 87% more effective than an Ice Tanker. Just one.
Oyyyyyyyyyyy.
That really sucks....
I am officially on your side guys about Ice Tankers needing a fix. I think the targets have to be Hibernate, Permafrost, and either CE or Icicles for some sort of Damage Mitigation.
Sadly, Invuln tankers don't even need an outside influence (Kora Fruit) to reach those numbers.
Simply slot Invincibility with 6 +DEF enhances, and you get the same number (approximately 86.67% more effective, which is consequently the most they can be above us, assuming we have floored accuracy on the enemy). Add a single Kora Fruit to the mix, and they will remain 87% more effective even through +10 BOSSES (assuming 5 other enemies around that can be used to fuel Energy Absorbtion or Invincibility)
Gratz on 50 Bluefan!
I've been taking a break from coh but just come back and started on my ice tank again so kinda keen to see what the thread was all about. It's really good to see so many positive suggestions and contributions from everyone involved and I only hope we get something done before the suggested changes go live.
I really loved the suggestion of dam debuff on CE and despite peoples hate for phased bad guys the suggestion for hibernate to be an aoe phase toggle was quite cool. As was the idea of hibernate being a res based click with a self hold/intangebility at the end as we freeze.
I'll keep an eye on the thread and hope some changes get considered and thanks again all the posters.
You must be the fifth ice tank I've heard of on victory Bluefan! If you ever want to team with an alt let me know! My global chat is @KidZero and I'm normally on as FlashThaw at the mo.
PS. Fought an ice tank the other day with may blaster and it was nasty but aim+buildup really messed the tanks def up and I four shotted him almost so we're not that indestructable thank god but chilling embrace is a nightmare!
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This is a bit off topic but:
I HIT 50 TODAY!!! Heh, I'm one of the few 50 Ice tankers now, and it feels damn good. We rock (to some extent).
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Congrats. Good to see another Ice/Axe 50 out there.
Thank you Kid and Runhilde, means a lot. Ice tankers rock the casbah for sure. And ya, I'll look you up Kid. My Global Chat is @Bluefan.
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I really loved the suggestion of dam debuff on CE...As was the idea of hibernate being a res based click with a self hold/intangebility at the end as we freeze.
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Thanks! I just hope the Devs like the ideas too... Our powers could use some work.
I've played 4.5 levels with Energy Absorption now, and I have to say...
I don't strongly feel that my Defense will be sufficient with it capped at 5 targets. I can hit 10-15 or so +3 - +4 (pretty common in our eight-person invincible missions) and still take some heavy hits before I can use it a second time. I don't feel overpowered when I'm getting hit for full damage, or when I'm in a CoT mission filled with Fire Thorn Casters and Behemoths.
Since all I have to fall back on is Hoarfrost (I'm really resisting the fighting pool) and Health to mitigate the big hits, I'm not feeling as invulnerable as I probably could, in comparison to other tanker sets. I'm not unable to tank most of the time, but situations that an inv could probably laugh off have me at or near death...and never mind the streaky RNG deciding that the boss with floored accuracy certainly will hit me 4 times in a row.
I'm not trying to sound all complainy, but I do feel that Ice Armor needs some looking at to improve it in relation to other tanker sets. I really don't know what to suggest that would balance with stone or invuln's durability, or fire's offense without just duplicating those sets. I like the suggestions involving giving Chilling Embrace a damage debuff on top of the -recharge, as that at least would be distinctive to Ice.
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I plugged in the values for 'Power Level Mod' from the scrapper spreadsheet for CE modifier as well, since it seems to work here (meaning a +10 boss only gets a 0.75% recharge penalty, still max of 25% for a -10). With that, the values were a bit different, but I felt it was a more accurate representation of what effect CE has on higher level bosses (or even AVs). I also plugged it into the damage modifier column as well, but that didn't change the final percentages (as you stated).
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Yeah, for CE that's probablya good change to make.
And yes on the damage. Note that like I said the damage column is hard coded for 100 and not even looking at the damage mod column anymore. I had kind of stopped looking for good values for damage modifier once I realized that amount of damage was moot in the percentage calcs.