[ QUOTE ]
We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up.
[/ QUOTE ]
The best part of any game is the story and the gameplay.
When one neglects or destroys either the story or the gameplay in order to obtain teaming or soloing they are making a bad design change in my opinion.
Teaming and soloing are optional. Emphasis on optional.
That the devs consider teaming to be the best part of the game disturbs me greatly. It is merely a facet of gameplay nothing more nothing less. For some it is an attraction and for others it is a hindrance. Don't ignore the Yang for the Yin.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*) My advice is: do not beat us with the Stick of Teaming. Just because you have had a good experience teaming is not a valid reason for forcing it on anyone else. If you want people to team, give them motivation to do so. You attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
[/ QUOTE ]
I keep seeing this sort of sentiment on the boards and I really think it's a good one... I know it would be lots of work, but my suggestion would be to have contact offer not two missions as it is now (one street sweep, one door), but rather THREE missions, roughly classified as:
* Street Sweep- self-explainatory. Leave this just as-is.
* Standard door (Minions and Lt's in the mission, scaled to fit the player numbers and slider settings at the time of mission launch- basically what we have now but with a far lower Boss spawn rate, with all Boss missions clearly defined in the flavor text) and
* Team/Larege Map- Missions for groups. Missions have Bosses, AVs, large maps (as in the huge, sprawling CoT underground bases that are sooooo cool but taks sooooo long to run through), etc. These missions can either spell out their difficulty in the flavor text (i.e.: "This will be a tough one [player], probably a suicide run without backup. If I were you, I'd go grab some teamm mates to take this base out!"), can be color-coded, whatever. And yes, some builds might be able to solo even these missions, but you can offer the cookie through increaded XP awards for groups that get larger as more players do the mission, etc. thereby ENCOURAGING team play rather than PUNISHING soloers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I still don't understand why my Contacts can't simply 'notice' whether or not I'm in a Team and offer me missions accordingly.
If I'm not in a Team, then I don't get offered Team-required missions. If I am in a Team, then the Contact says "Ah, Silas Dark, I see you have some friends with you. Good, because you're going to need some help for this one..."
That puts control firmly in the hands of the players. All I have to do in order to get the most Team-oriented (and Team-required) content is to simply Team up before I go to my Contact.
If, on the other hand, I only have a short time to play and I just want to do a quick mission, I can just grab a mission and play. Since I'm not in a Team, I won't be offered any Team-required missions.
Silas Dark - Magic Scrapper
Blurg - Science Tanker
Quantium X - Mutation Controller
Grey 17 - Natural Defender
Santabot - Technology Blaster
[i]"City of Heroes is at its best as a Superhero game that's implemented as an MMO, rather than as an MMO that just happens to be about Superheroes..."[/i]
[ QUOTE ]
A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY. My concern at the mid and higher levels is that a solo Archetype isnt all that powerful. Their inherent weaknesses and strengths really come into play post level 25
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not working as you state. I was doing the Mysterious General Z Story Arc and got to the final mission and was confronted with 4 bosses. One was Havoc (+1 to me) but there were also 3 other just like Havoc and they were red to me. I mostly solo and I was on Hardboiled. I can understand the need to have Havoc (as the story line dictated but 3 other Jump Bots at +2 to me
.there was no way I was going to kill them all. Luckily when I went out to see if I could find help there were three Heroes standing close by that were waiting for a friend and were very nice to come help me finish them off. I know you stated that in some mission you might have multiple bosses spawn in the same map but 4 total for one Blaster??? Doesnt that seem a bit excessive to you?
[ QUOTE ]
Because of your feedback, I'll have someone on our team look at the number of bosses in missions from levels 1 to 50. I don't mind later missions perhaps including a greater % than earlier missions (if only because players are more powerful and have made friends with others), but your posts want me to doublecheck the exact numbers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool Thanks!!!
I do think that grouping should be an option. Yes this is a MMP but
I admit Im a loner (hence me being in a SG name Paragon City Loners) When I feel like I want to run around in a group, Ill go find one
and the person that says they dont do pickup groups EVER is silly. How do you find friends to play with if you dont do a pickup group once in a while. As to the one shot kill boss issue I have had that happen to me a couple of times. I just told myself I had to be a bit more careful. As a Energy Blaster I just make sure my first shot (Sniper +Aim +Buildup) hits. This on average will knock the Boss on his toussie and then I just try and keep in there until Ive killed him. But I can see how the one shot Boss can be problems for other ATs.
[ QUOTE ]
So this is the official "Statement of Intent" to remove the 'solo-ablility' of CoH and move to the cookie cutter group only MMP format?
Now that the game is up and running the solo players are no longer needed to boost revenue and subscriber base numbers must be. "We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up" ..... Thanks for your help and money solo folks, now either group up or go away. Oh, and as far as the "solo friendly" statement, thats why the lawyers had us put the "game play may change" statement on the box, that way we could screw you later legally SUCKERS.
[/ QUOTE ]
Woah dude, take a chill pill
[ QUOTE ]
You say it - but I don't belive it. My blaster could take on a +2 (purple) boss pre-issue 3 (was risky but not impossible) - now a +0 (orange) boss can kill me if I don't suck down 15+ insps.
[/ QUOTE ]
I still dont have problems with +0 orange boss
.maybe change your tactics a bit for your blaster???
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, please understand that a lot of us aren't asking for everything to be soloable. What we want is to be able to solo interesting story-based missions when we choose.
This means having soloable instanced missions separated from the group-encouraged/required ones.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the genre (and the great game) attracts many of us who want some online gaming experiences, but need it to be flexible enough that we can solo at will (instead of standing around trying to form a team for 10 minutes).
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree with both of these statements. Sometimes I dont want to stand around looking for a team
.I just want to go play. I dont feel I should be discouraged to solo if that is what I want to do.
[ QUOTE ]
Isnt Statesman the boss at Cryptic? Is it not his job to make sure that when he tells people to do something it actually gets done? It seems like hes not actually checking to make sure his directives are being followed, and thats sloppy managment. He's the lead designer, if he doesnt know the state of the game as it is on the live servers, either he or his employees arent doing their jobs right.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes he is but even the Boss cant know what is going on in the product 100% of the time. Being the boss is just not about coding and testing. Hes probably helping think out concepts for Issue 6 for all we know. But for him to respond indicating he would check out the multi boss issue means he is willing to do what it takes to make sure the game is balanced. Believe me I work for a software company. For something as complex as COH, there is no one anywhere (except maybe the Quality Assurance department) that knows every single piece of the software. Developers usually have their specialty areas, they dont work on the WHOLE program
[ QUOTE ]
aggreed, what about blasters, ya sure we can take a boss, only if we have a tanker taunting them with a healer watching his or her bar. i used to take on +3 bosses no problem with my emp defender friend behind me healing and forting me. now we have trouble with even con bosses aka orange. i kinda dont mind the added HP (it only means more time fighting oh ok) but i do mind the damge, what are blasters going to do?? if we get one shot by them and really cant do much damage to them but then there is a scrapper or tanker that if careful they can sit there and take the time to finish off the boss.
thanks for the invul and regen nerf, and making the bosses harder (sarcasm)
us poor blasters are left out in the cold
[/ QUOTE ]
Not True Not True! Yes having a tanker is certainly helpful
.I have a tanker friend and we both love to Duo Brickstown together (hes a lvl 32 tank, Im a lvl 30 Blaster) but I dont have problems doing a single Boss. You gotta use smarts and tactics, you cant stand toe to toe with a boss, blast him and keep him on his toussie. He cant hurt you if hes laying on his backside.
[ QUOTE ]
Simply put: The Blaster Archtype in a nutshell is damage at range.
This is their primary defence: take it down fast, take it down hard.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. If they cant hit you they cant hurt you. Kill em fast! Dont think as a blaster your going to take on 4 or more orange dudes
that is suicide. When I solo I snipe one shot the first baddies and then two shot his friend. Go to the next group
do the same thing.
I like to solo because it gives me the feeling of being a super hero. I mean come on. Most Super Heros are loners. Yes they get together once in a while but mostly they solo. We should not be discouraged from soloing. Grouping should be an option (Hence Task Forces) I love doing the Story Arcs. It makes me feel like a real hero when I can finish one.
I'll add another +1 for the Dads.
I have a 6th grader and a 3-month old. I get to play Friday nights and early mornings on weekdays.
I typically get up at 5:30-6:00am to feed my son, then put him back to bed. I have about 30-45 minutes to play CoH before I have to get ready for work. During those minutes, I have to ensure that my 6th grade daughter is getting ready for the school bus, instead of spending 30 minutes fixing her hair.
a) during those early mornings, why should I waste my limited time trying to find a pickup team, which often suck hardcore.
b) why should I inflict my short timeframes on other players who are also looking for a team because they can't solo their own missions. I have to routinely turn down requests to team because I won't be in long enough to help them.
c) what d@mned business is it of STATESMAN or any other Dev how I choose the play the game I'm paying for, as long as I play within the rules?
I agree with a previous poster: Social engineering on the part of Game Designers in MMO games is just like real-life Social Engineering: Arrogance surrounding the feeling that as one of the "educated Literati", your vision of Utopia should be imposed on everyone around you, under the auspices of "cooperation and common good".
Well, Social Engineering bites and so does forced teaming. If you want to ENCOURAGE teaming, give people rewards for doing so. Extra Drops, Extra XP, Extra INF, etc. Oh, wait, teams already get all those things from the increased spawns and increased Lvl of the badguys......
My .04
[ QUOTE ]
and the person that says they dont do pickup groups EVER is silly. How do you find friends to play with if you dont do a pickup group once in a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not the person you asked this of, but I'll answer it anyway:
I team with my husband & several RL friends. We met in the late '80s, have been pen-&-paper gaming together since (I.C.E.'s Rolemaster, if that means anything to anyone), & graduated to MMOs starting with the original Neverwinter Nights in the mid-'90s.
I'll team in answer to a random call for help - & yes, I've met some very nice people that way - but frankly, not everyone plays MMOs in order to meet & team with a bunch of strangers.
I fell in love with Blasters almost immediately; wave that sword around all you want, I can shoot energy out of my .. hands.
It's the way missions tend to progress as a single-target blaster for me. Lots of stealth, constant planning/setting up for battle [energy/devices as you've probably guessed]. Lt's and minions? make them yellow or orange, that just makes things more fun. That's what the slider is for, and except maybe for a need for an 'easy' setting for lower controllers and defenders, is perfect.
There's nothing like the feeling you've trapped and outmaneuvered a group of evil minions [ok so that's just satisfying for the big bang], their leaders [lt's; should be more buffer types for that; they always come with all those minions] and the big bosses in the area. Finish the mission feeling like that guy Mellowlink from that old armorhunter anime...
One way of enjoying solo is playing mousetrap; baiting, trapping, using overelaborate plans that half-fail when the entire-group runs at you [and into your bombs] makes one feel far more attached to his character than just standing there with 'hack' on auto, regenerating whatever the Shadow Envoy breathes at you.
more to the point, it's best if they don't have a chance because you covered the exit points, smokescreened the area, caltropped the floor, boobytrapped half the room behind them then opened up on them from the front so they think you just popped around the corner.
if they don't have a chance because I'm uberpowered and invincible, it's boring, BUT, that's what the mission difficulty setting is for.
More importantly, some might enjoy the feeling of beating up on giant demon-princes for their lunch-money. It's a game, we all have our ways of having fun, and should.
but if I don't have a chance because no matter what I do, one lucky counter [always at least 5% chance, right? rarely that low for a boss, too, right?], rips me to shreds, that's just as bad.
You guys were doing great for solo before. all you need to do is stop forcing grouping so much. It's a lot more fun to group when you don't feel obligated...
Far more satisfying to singlehandedly discover that the big great sinister plot of the freakshow is.... "the Freaklympics". That blew my mind after all the sinister-conspiracy-beneath-the-dark-evil-conspiracy stuff, and had my roomate cry out "you're fighting the "Special-Special Olympics???"
though that xp bug seems to be a step in the right direction. call it a feature?
[ QUOTE ]
I didnt want to impact solo play by increasing mobs across the board. Instead, I focused on Bosses. We increased the damage, hit points and XP of Bosses to be exactly one level higher. In other words, a level 30 Boss, now more closely resembles a level 31 Boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
But this, in a lot of ways, just makes things worse. On street hunting, if I'm worried about the Bosses I'll now just look for a group one level lower, but that means it'll be even easier for me to plow through the accompanying Minions and LTs than before. After all, the Boss is the main XP there, so he's what I'll change my tactics around.
A long time ago, there was a thread on these boards about Boss/LTs and ways to make them stronger without leading to one-shot deaths. We came up with what I thought was a good idea, that might go over well better than the current changes. Specifically, it went like this:
Give all LTs, Bosses, Elite Bosses, and AVs innate powers equivalent to the Leadership pool. That is, they'd boost some stats on any nearby enemy (including themselves). After all, they are the "officer" types, and "boss" and "lieutenant" imply some hierarchy, so it only makes sense.
The LTs might only boost one stat by a noticeable amount, or several by a small amount. Bosses or AVs, however, would always boost several things, at least one by a significant amount. The exact stat boosted, and the radius of the aura, could depend on what type of Boss it was; there are a lot of things that can be buffed (accuracy, damage, damage resistance, status resistance, defense, healing rate, visibility range, recharge speed, movement speed, buff/debuff duration), so you've got a lot of room for customization then.
What this does:
1> Doesn't make a solitary Boss much more difficult than before. Yes, he buffs himself, but the effect wouldn't be nearly as pronounced as the one-level difference you're using now.
2> Makes Minions at high levels not such a cakewalk, since they'll be buffed by the nearby "officer" types.
3> Makes large enemy groups significantly more dangerous than small enemy groups. Currently, doubling the number of enemies just means double the XP when the AoEs go off, usually without significantly increased risk.
4> Gives teams a motivation to kill the Boss first, instead of just AoE-nuking everything and then mopping up the wounded officers. This makes powersets focusing on single-target damage a bit more useful.
5> Adds a bit more uncertainty. There's no longer the automatic "hmm, if I Smite-Shadow Maul-Smite, I can drop any Minion" concept that makes attacks at high level boring. If you can't be sure exactly what the target's current stats are, you won't be able to reduce everything to a simple repitition of tactics. How many people will remember exactly what is buffed by every Boss/LT type? Many people I've grouped with can't even keep the DE emanators straight.
I'm not saying you should do this with EVERY LT or Boss, but the current concept, where you solely buff the Boss, just isn't solving the basic problem.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up.
[/ QUOTE ]
The best part of any game is the story and the gameplay.
When one neglects or destroys either the story or the gameplay in order to obtain teaming or soloing they are making a bad design change in my opinion.
Teaming and soloing are optional. Emphasis on optional.
That the devs consider teaming to be the best part of the game disturbs me greatly. It is merely a facet of gameplay nothing more nothing less. For some it is an attraction and for others it is a hindrance. Don't ignore the Yang for the Yin.
[/ QUOTE ]
And through teaming and playing with your SG, you are, theoretically, creating your own story around the framework the devs have provided with the Paragon City mythology, backstories to the various villian groups, story arcs, badges, etc... The classes are clearly designed to be interlocking and complimentary. What does this tell you? It's a massively MULTIPLAYER online ROLE PLAYING GAME we're playing here. By definition, it has to defer to the mass of the player population. IF you don't want to bother with dealing with other players, why are you here? Why not just go play X-MEN Legends or something?
BTW, you can still solo just fine in CoH if you care to but it's not reasonable to expect to be able to do everything the game has to offer if you do.
Chris
If the goal of the boss change was to boost the "named boss" spawns at the end of missions to be exactly +1 con difficulty from where they were in Issue 2 to encourage grouping on most missions (since a significant number of missions have at least one named boss)...
*deep breath*
YOU'RE ALREADY OVER-RIDING THE STANDARD SPAWN GENERATOR TO INSTANTIATE THOSE BOSSES! YOU COULD HAVE JUST ADDED +1 CON TO "NAMED BOSS" SPAWNS!
*froths*
Either you're not articulating the design goal properly, or what was actually designed has warped that goal significantly.
@Mindshadow
This post is long, so please bear with me.
Boss Balance and Presence
Bosses feel like they've gone up in difficulty more than just one level, but if I think of it in terms of color, bosses that currently con red to me would have conned purple to me in I2. For my main toon, a 28 blaster, I would have avoided purple bosses like the plague, solo, as pretty much guaranteed death. If bosses are going to be that tough, they need to con at another level higher.
I have been seeing bosses all over the place in my missions and in the missions of the people I'm in pick-up groups with. Some have the difficulty slider set higher, which I assume may result in more boss spawns. I was in a Freak mission yesterday where practically every mob had two +2 bosses in it (relative to the mission holder's level, and +1 to me, as the highest-level member). No, bosses were not mentioned anywhere in the mission description whatsoever -- generic bosses never are.
Being one-shotted or two-shotted is no fun at all. Having inspirations take less time to use might help, along with increasing the speed of other powers that allow health to be regained. But the fundamental problem is still the amount of damage dealt, combined with the pathetic rate at which many classes now whittle down boss HPs (especially given that more HPs also equates more regen).
From the standpoint of challenge, perhaps more "Defeat X and his crew" should have a more powerful X -- it seems a little odd that the entirely new category of Elite Bosses has just two examples, for instance. Perhaps the X bosses should be Elite Bosses, who con purple and have the boosted power. But the generic bosses were fine the way they were; those who need a tougher challenge have the mission difficulty slider.
As is, for every single mission that can potentially spawn bosses of 25+ -- including the ones that can do so via the difficulty slider -- needs to be looked at for boss balance. There's an awful lot of generics out there. Moreover, the street spawning algorithm may need looking at, as well. I've seen plenty of the bosses out on the street while soloing -- Consigliere in IP, Archons and Jump Bots in Striga, spawns that contain multiple bosses (Freak tanks, SR skiffs) in TV, and so forth.
I do, however, think that "reduce the frequency of generic bosses" is actually a bad thing -- bosses add interest and variety to fights. Generic bosses did so in I2 by being dangerous rather than overwhelming, and they'd continue to be that if they were returned to I2 levels. Save the big mojo for the Elite Bosses.
By the way, as far as I can tell, "teaming up" to beat a boss more often means "let me find a non-squishy AT to stand toe-to-toe with the thing" (a controller doesn't help sufficiently if the holds don't stack well enough, a bubble still won't deflect the lucky one-shot, an emp defender can't heal you fast enough to deal with the one-shot, and so forth). If you're calling in someone to help you, you often end up feeling more like a spectator than a participant. This is no fun at all for the squishy.
Assuming SOs at 25
Because I don't yet have a toon that has reached the heaven of practically unlimited influence, who can fund my lower-level characters, I've been having trouble scraping together the Influence to get fully slotted up with SOs. Gifts of Influence from friends with higher-level characters have eventually let me get mostly SOs, but my main is still using some Trainings and DOs, and my primary alt is still using a mix of DOs and SOs.
I posted statistics on the disparity between Influence and XP gain elsewhere on the forums previously; a player who is self-funded simply doesn't have the Influence to go to SOs at 22. New players frequently don't know where the stores to get them are, either, and many won't complete the missions for the appropriate contact to unlock the non-Power 10 ones until several levels beyond 22, anyway. Furthermore, new players often don't know how -- or where -- to sell their enhancements for the most Influence return.
Moreover, since players frequently team with those higher level than themselves, and missions will now spawn at higher levels if the holder has their difficulty setting cranked up, players can actually readily end up encountering the 25+ bosses before they can get SOs.
I agree that by the time players reach 32, they are likely to be fitted out with SOs across the board, and have had opportunity to get their signature power. They've also gotten to live with their character for quite a while, have had a chance to respec for a better build (hopefully), gotten the opportunity to pick up their toon's signature primary power, and so forth. This is probably the more appropriate level to bump difficulty at, rather than 25 -- but to judge from the higher-level folks posting, not as much as it's actually gotten bumped.
The Level 24 Respec Trial
The level 24 respec trial is hugely difficult to do without a small team of people that already have excellent builds. Problematically, players who actually need the respec need it because they don't have good builds -- a significant number of them need to make big changes in their builds, not just tweak a few slots here and there, as is true at 34 and 44. The free respec has actually made things worse -- yesterday, I've started seeing people who used their free respec to respec themselves into near-unplayability.
Significantly, as I hear my pick-up teams and SG talk about what they're doing with their respec -- a topic of frequent conversation both given the free one, and the near-24 teams my primary alt plays with -- the thing that comes up most frequently is the need to take Stamina. Unfortunately, Stamina is one of the things that you most need in the reactor room, and in the rooms that precede it. This is doubly true given that it now takes far longer to take a boss down.
The level 24 trial needs to be balanced for a team size that assumes that 1 out of every 4 players, at minimum, has a lousy build. Alternatively or additionally, if nobody on the team has been issued the respec for the 24 trial, the entire difficulty of the last stage of the trial (the building as well as the reactor itself) should be reduced.
Soloing and MMOGs
Many players come to MMOGs not for the social interaction, but for the dynamic nature of the world. They don't need to make friends. They have friends. You'll note that when many people talk about teaming, they talk about teaming up with a spouse or a significant other, or their kids, or their real-life friends. They're looking to CoH for a way to do something fun with people they already know, when it's mutually convenient -- and to solo when their friends aren't on.
Yes, it's fun to chat with people online. But CoH actually doesn't support chat terribly well, although this is improving with the addition of global chat. But CoH is also a fast-paced, high-attention game. I can't carry on a conversation while in the midst of combat. And lots of teams are pretty silent -- a lot of times, the only things said are "pull", "wait", "end", and "Ready!". Indeed, the bigger the team, the less random chatter happens. I think most of my "it was cool to meet you" interactions have occurred in duos, and the occasional team of 3 or 4.
As others have already mentioned, teams also don't really let you savor the content at your own pace, or get immersed in a storyline. They are also unworkable for a lot of people who don't have a lot of time to play, or need to spend unpredictable amounts of time AFK. A lot of missions are completable in 20 minutes, solo; looking for a team sucks up time that could readily be spent in enjoyable play.
Encouraging Group Play
The way to encourage grouping is not to make soloing unfun or difficult, because the people who like to solo will simply find another game. And while certain players may say, "Good riddance!", the fact of the matter is that there are plenty of MMOGs that are great for groups, but very few MMOGs that are good for solo players. It's better to dominate a niche than to be one of many. (I play CoH far less for the fact that it's a superhero game, by the way, than the fact that it's a dynamic MMOG that I can play solo for short amounts of time.)
Unfortunately, CoH's design and group-related tools don't necessarily facillitate easy team-ups. I think lots of people would like to team -- but it's just not sufficiently easy to put together a good team. Two things need to be addressed: group content and tools that foster grouping.
Group Content
The explicit group content -- the TFs and trials -- are designed for big teams that have a ton of time to burn. If you're going to start a TF, for instance, you'd better plan on having at least 4 hours available, and 6 for safety; while it's possible to finish in less, you can't bet on it. Putting together a team for a TF can readily take 30 minutes, as well. And in that giant chunk of time, you don't get any real breaks, since everyone is focused on getting through as quickly as possible. This is actually actively unhealthy; I find myself with eye fatigue midway through, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
What the game needs is TFs designed for 2 to 5 players, completable in 2-3 hours of time. These TFs would present a short story arc, so everyone gets to experience a connected sequence of events. The game could also use more unique team missions like Frostfire.
Smaller groups foster better community. There are more conversations, there is greater flexibility to accomodate individual needs, and the graphics are more manageable for those with slower computers. Threats are more readily managed, since the danger of mass aggro and a team overrun and wipe-out are significantly reduced. It's easier to put together a small team, especially because you don't need a perfect balance of archetypes. And shorter play sessions increase the degree to which group content is available to more casual players.
Group-Related Tools
Friends lists, supergroups, and the pick-up team search feature all need to be vastly improved. It needs to be easier to find a suitable team.
First off, all of these things need to show what primary and secondary power sets each toon has, and preferably allow you to drill down to see the individual powers picked. You may not need a defender if you have a controller of the right sort, you may be able to substitute a fire tank for a scrapper, and so forth.
There needs to be a tool for recruiting pick-up teams that goes beyond 'search a list, invite people'. For instance, team leaders should be able to post 'wanted' notices that specify exactly what they're looking for (level range and ATs), and keep those notices out for as long as they want, so that they can fill team spots midway through a mission (for instance, a team may start a mission without a defender because none is available, but they still want to recruit one, without the team leader having to pause after each fight to do a search).
People should be able to search these recruiting notices and see info about the exiting team -- how large it is, the ATs, and the level spread. The key thing is that existing teams often are willing to get bigger, but don't tend to recruit once they've started up -- so by allowing "wanteds", it would allow folks who log on and are LFT to immediately see if there's a spot they could go to.
There also needs to be a "sign-up" tool for task forces -- people specifically looking for certain TFs. Pepole could put themselves on the list, and go about doing their own missions and so forth while waiting for the team of the appropriate level to be formed.
The limit on the number of friends needs to be increased significantly, and more information made available. It needs to be easier to prune one's friends list of people who are no longer around your level, as well. Furthermore, it'd be useful if you could set an option to notify you when members of your SG log on (just like with your friends list); that way, you could take SG members off your friends list without losing that login notification. We should also be able to annotate our friends list -- most people use this for tracking folks they've played with in previous pick-up groups and would enjoy playing with again, which means that we often don't have strong memories of who they are.
The size of supergroups also needs to go up significantly. At the current size, unless everyone plays together and levels together, the level spread can result in the high probability of logging on and not finding anyone in your SG that you can readily team up with. SGs could also use a ton more tools, but this has already been covered extensively in other forum threads.
Summary
Yes, this post has been very long. The summary of my thoughts is: Don't force grouping. If players find it fun and easy to group, they'll do it naturally. If players don't find it fun and easy to group, and instead view it as an obstacle to the solo game they're enjoying, they'll go play something else.
Bosses weren't broken. You solved the challenge issue by having the mission difficulty slider. Please put things back the way they were, buff some story arc bosses by making them Elite, and make your grouping mechanisms better.
Frankly, there were two reasons I even bothered trying this game. I had played two MMPs in the past and disliked both because the obvious best path to advancement lay in teaming up with people and I found I didn't enjoy doing that. The first reason I tried this game was because it was superheroes. I like the genre. The second reason was because, unlike the other MMPs on the market today, it was billed as allowing you to solo well. That means a lot ot me. In the past, the vast majority of my experiences teaming have been highly negative. I get far more fun out of the game solo. Also, although I don't have kids, like others I have time constraints. Sometimes I just want to get on for half an hour, sometimes I suffer sudden interruptions in my game play. Neither of these are particularly well-suited to playing in a team where it usually takes 10 minutes to get into a team, (assuming you are even willing to go with pickup teams, if you want to be with friends it can often be a long wait) 5 minutes to get together and decide what to do, and often another hour or so to actually acomplish much of anything as a team. By myself, pre-issue 2, I often got on with my scrapper and soloed for 10-15 minute increments quite productively, knowing I wasn't letting anyone down by skipping out in the middle of a mission.
Yeah, there's street hunting, wheee! Tell me, does anyone actually enjoy street hunting? Nobody I know. They may find it the fastest way to level up, but if so, it's the leveling up part they enjoy, and the street hunting they just do to get to that.
That doesn't mean I never want to team with anyone. I started an empathy defender focusing on healing and buffing (rather then the secondary powers) in order to see what teaming was like from the POV of a character made for it. THis game does a good johb with teaming, and, at times, I am quite happy teaming, but there are also many times when I want to solo, and making the game unfun for soloists, well, I see no reason to stick with CoH if that is where it is going. I left two other MMPs already due to this issue (in large part).
Also, let's be a little realistic here. If you don't like street hunting, each contact is really only offering one mission option at any given point. If you take that option, and you can't solo it, not only can you never get any other missions from that contact, but once you get three like that you can never get any other missions from any other contact either. This is unacceptable unless every single one of the missions I can get solo is...well...soloable. Now, if you change the format, if you can just say something like "cancel this mission, give me the next one" or if you can keeop getting mission from every contact which is active regardless of how many you have and/or whether you already have one from that contact, then fine, it's ok to make many missions unsoloable because I can just get other ones. As things stand though, the only real content in the game (missions, task forces, trials) is going to require teaming. Even if several missions don't, the way contacts are set up, if any do that means you eventually stop being able to get new ones.
I wish this had been explained as the intent when I bought the game. Something like "Soling is perfectly feasible if you are willing to skip all the actual content in the game". I would have known it was just like all the other MMPs on the market and would not have bought it then, nor would I have paid for a year's subscription in advance.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru
Thank you very, very much for this thread, Statesman. This level of feedback is greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'll be harping on things already mentioned -- I haven't read every post in here, just breezed through the red-names -- but I wanted to emphasize one thing:
[ QUOTE ]
As for why we put Bosses in missions at all in other words, why isnt everything solo-able the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up. Soloing is fine, but a MMP really shines when you meet other people and play alongside them. Ive made many good virtual friends through other MMPs that I simply would not have done if I could solo everything all the time. I admit it: Im anti-social. Its hard to get me to group up with strangers. But after I do it, I always wonder why dont I do this more often
I might still be anti-social in real life, but in MMPs Im a social butterfly (I have no doubt that this will appear in sigs for years to come
)
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a large difference in my mind between a mission you discover you can't complete because there's a well-nigh unbeatable foe at the end and "everything solo-able". The former is a surprise and, to me, an unpleasant one. (I'm all for surprises in missions -- I want an indoor mission with ambushes -- but surprises that force me to team are UnFun.) I hope you folks do keep catering to an MM game's strengths and add a lot of exciting content that's only accessable to teams; I want to feel like I'm missing nifty stuff if I stay solo. I don't want to feel like I need to "team or street-sweep."
nothing I am going to say hasn't been said already, but sometimes it takes a large voice to bring change, or an additional perspective to focus the eyes...
Statesman, the issue here, as I see it, is that the majority of people here LOVE your game. We love it because (most of us) read the stories, and the arcs, and really feel immersed. We love to unearth the history of paragon, and glimpse its (potential) futures. We loved being able to team with others and have our powers compliment theirs. But most of all, we love it because there wasnt any PENALTY to soloing. It was a breath of fresh air to the MMO world... no sitting around for half an hour spamming "lvl 38 dark/bubble runemaster LFG!!!" praying someone let you into a group. We understood certain things were unsoloable, or group only. It was great! We could solo or team at our discretion... We could FEEL like a comic superhero. We felt like playing the game was living in our OWN comic book! Thousands of people playing, and each one felt they were in their own book, having their own experiences, and shaping the way they played by doing different things! and like in the comics there was a ton of variety in all our heroes.
I'm going to use comic book & in game examples for what made the game pre-I3 a marvel (pun intended).
you had your solo heroes: characters with little to no team affiliation. They sometimes made a cameo in other people's comic books, but for the most part stayed in their own comics. people playing their spidermen, their daredevils, their punnishers. They could solo their missions, and only call for help when they really needed it. Spiderman solo'd most of his bosses, sometimes winning sometimes losing, but when someone like juggernaut was rampaging through the city he called on some aid, ect... (in game you had people able to solo most of their arcs, but then things like the envoy of shadows showed up...)
you had your solo & team characters... those with team affiliations, but who also went solo. Wolverine, Captain America, batman, superman, namor. They were part of team books, but had their own books as well. In game they were your tertiary supergroup mates. Yea they were there when you needed them, but they were also more than happy to do their own thing solo. They had their own experiences, but also shared the experience with their group. Namor had his own private nemesis, but also helped the avengers against their villains. Batman might fight the joker in Gotham, but when the JLA needed him, there he was! Wolverine fought sabertooth on his own, but when magneto shows up, Wolvie has X-men backing him.
then you had your team oriented heroes: your jean greys, your Storms, your ant-men. Characters without their own books, who were there to be in a team. People who played their characters exclusively to group. They nearly ALWAYS shared their experiences with a group. Prominent SG members, SG leaders, people who always had their LFT flag on.
This was GOOD! Variety. Loved it. This variety made this game OUTSTANDING! We all had different ways of doing things, and they were each equally viable. No one was penalized for their play style. Everyone realized the way they played opened some content and closed of others. Your soloers knew they wouldnt be doing TFs or Trials that often. Your teamers always knew their story continuity would be a little shuffled, as they did their and everyone elses missions. And your mixed players (your half and halves) had plenty of access to both.
Why, oh why, would you change this paradigm??? It was nigh perfect! If you wanted to challenge people who said things were too easy: they now had a difficulty slider! If they wanted a tougher challenge they could ramp it up. If it was still too easy, you could have added more notches to the slider.
If you wanted to encourage more grouping, you could increase the xp bonus to teams. You could add more trials. You could add mini-TFs, mini-trials, or group only contacts. you could add more group only missions to existing contacts, which ONLY open up if you talked to them while grouped.
But to add the extra boss difficulty to EVERYONE is a little steep. You are removing the enjoyment from those people who like to solo their Story Arcs. Yea, we all knew there were some arcs that were un-soloable. They had monsters or Avs. We found that to be acceptable, as every superhero will sooner or later encounter a challenge he could not face on his own. But what is happening now if we are finding that normal bosses are too tough to solo. Unfortunately, these normal bosses appear all the time in solo missions and especially story arcs. Now, some of us can no longer solo our stories. We need to seek aid. We feel less super. We loose the hot chase continuity we had when banging out story arc missions one after the other, racing to the end. We loose that because now, those of us who are not solo machines have to team to fight bosses. Its a jarring experience and I for one dont like it.
Im not going to quit or any such nonsense because of one thing marring my gaming experience, but I beg you Statesman, please realize what made CoH so entirely different from all the other MMOs out there: The ability, nay the CHOICE to solo when you wanted to, or team when you wanted to. And by that statement, I mean that you could solo through a LOT of content on your own. See a MAJORITY of the story CoH had to offer. But to experience it all you had to team. That ability is slowly being taken away. Those of us who like to solo dont want to street sweep, we want to solo actual game content! You have said before, you only want to make the game more fun, and remove things that make the game un-fun. Please understand that taking away the choice we have had since release, that is to solo our hero through much of the games content, is extremely un-fun.
I know you are a comic and RPG buff States, and I know how proud you are of this game, an that all the Dev team looks at CoH like a labor of love. You guys must love seeing all the players who make concept characters and get to play them out, and play our their adventures. But you are now severely hampering the ability of lone wolf character concepts unless they fit the tank or scrapper role. You are hurting the casual gamer who just wants to spend an hour or so doing his missions. And you are changing the very nature of what we loved so much about this game.
Im not speaking for everybody, Im just speaking as a concerned fan. and trust me, I would not have spent this much time, at work, typing something like this unless I was truly passionate about this game and the direction it was heading in. I know the post was long, an you probably wont read it due to length, but it was something I really felt had to be, once again, reiterated.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to address one of the forced grouping issues that has not yet gotten much play -- that of how it takes away from the ability to enjoy content in the game.
As a bit of background, I am a co-lead of an active SG and team very regularly. I also take pride that my main character has done every single story arc that was available to her at the time. I like to go through story arcs in depth. I read all the clues, pay attention to the back story, and generally try to enjoy the content as much as the battles. Arcs like The Wheel of Destruction, the Freaklympics, Ubelmann the Unknown, and the Organ Grinders are clever and unique and add a lot to the normal grind of the game. At least for me. Some of my teammates get more enjoyment out of the group dynamics and the fighting (which I also enjoy).
BUT -- no matter what your feeling about the content is, it's a lot harder to really savor content on a team, because you're likely to be switching from arc to arc, depending on who has missions in which zone ("why schlep to Talos for that next mission on your arc when there's two others right here in Brickstown?"), and who can call a contact for new missions instead of having to run across the city for more missions.
So for me at least, there's a contradiction. Teaming is a lot of fun, but it's harder to really appreciate significant parts of the content when you're teaming. I solved this contradiction by soloing my story arcs. That doesn't work so well anymore. Now, as my Controller hits her upper 30s, I've run into the problem that as I get more powerful, I am less able to solo. This Boss change has made life harder -- and my Ill/Rad controller is a pretty solo-friendly build. My Controller can generally avoid being one-shotted by a boss, but if my holds miss and/or my toggles drop I am one dead Controller. Not fun.
In other words, it seems to me that the goal of encouraging grouping and the goal of content enjoyment are somewhat mutually exclusive, and that this change has sharpened the contradiction there.
[/ QUOTE ]
I very strongly agree with this, and would add at least two other points that make teaming a problem for those of us who want to enjoy the game content. For one, the content slows a team down. Specifically, mission texts and mission resolution texts can be quite long, and take a long time to read. If I am taking a couple of minutes to read through this text, the rest of my team is unable to do anything but sit and wait for me to finish. I can't just skip over the text and pick it up later, because although there might be a one sentence summary of this mission in my 'Souvenier' section after I finish the arc, I'll never have another chance to read the fully detailed version. So I am caught between annoying my teammates, who have to wait while I read the story, and missing out on what is to me an important part of the game.
The other major problem with teaming for those of us that like the story elements is that if I work with a team of three, we won't all be able to complete all of our story arcs. Even soloing every arc, it's difficult to get them all in without out-leveling them, especially if you are trying to get in all the Task Forces as well. With the extra experience gained from running all of even one other person's missions along with my own, I would never have been able to complete all the arcs. This situation would be compounded in a group of three or four. Savoring the stories often just isn't practical in even small group situations.
I understand and agree with the problems that were noticed by the dev team.
I understand, but do NOT agree with the solution that was created (increased boss and AV statistics).
The reason is simple: If you could defeat a boss solo before, in most cases you can still do it. It just takes longer. As for AVs, it was a rare case that someone could tank the AV before, but now cannot due to the increased HPs. But it's common that someone now can no longer beat the AV's regen rate, even if that AV sits there yawning and doing nothing.
Really, the changes are too simplistic, and cause the following problems:
1: bosses are not so much more challenging (well-prepared, you still beat them), as punish you for mistakes or a missed attack instantly. Basically, you live more in fear of bad luck.
2: If you can defeat a boss, it still takes no special tactics... just outdamaging it, using the same tactics as before.
I really liked the elite bosses, mostly because they did things differently from other bosses. But, why don't other bosses just get more interesting? The things that made certain enemies dangerous and annoying but interesting to fight were:
debuffs
controls
summoning pets/minions/allies
buffs
NOT "damage". There are some nasty damage bosses out there, but increasing their damage doesn't make them more interesting and fun to fight, it makes them simply nastier.
Give us more bosses that summon pets, more bosses that will hit you with debuffs or buff themselves and allies, more bosses that use tactics such as flying around and shooting, etcetera. Don't make the bosses harder with pure numbers, make them more annoying by letting them do more different things.
And just like MoG, when you see some boss put the smackdown on you using some power that you thought sucked, it may make you re-evaluate the uses of that power.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is also the issue of things like the respec trial, which was even before the change considered very difficult for the average group.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before the change, there was a success rate of just under 80%.
[/ QUOTE ]
And of those 80% how many are first attempts versus 2nd, 3rd or 4th?
Have you considered the possibility that a large chunk of that 80% is from experienced teams specifically balanced for completing the TF?
How many of the 20% go back and do it again successfully? How many of them just say screw it and delete their sporked characters?
Without answers to those questions knowing that 80% of the Respec Trials that are started complete successfully is meaningless.
[ QUOTE ]
And in making the game harder to try and keep their business, you may be costing CoH the patronage of the people you really WANT to keep: those who enjoy the journey, not the destination.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wanted to touch base upon this point.
I'm a 32 y/o casual gamer. I'm single, work full-time, go to school at night, and generally have 45 minutes or one hour to play at a given stretch during the week. I used to come home, make a sandwich, play some CoH to work through some missions, and then go off to class. On weekends, I have longer stretches of time available, usually, and so can afford to do the occasional TF or full storyarc.
I enjoy playing the game 90% of the time solo, because I'm here for the stories and because I don't have time to search for a group, wait for everyone to get ready, start the mission, wait for a player to go AFK, etc. I have a short amount of time and want to get to the storyline right away. I'm here for the sense of depth and interplay of the storyarcs. I loved the "Wheel of Destruction" and "Project: Locke" arcs, and recent favorites have included "The Organ Grinders" among many others. in doing these storyarcs, I've always used my head and tried to make sure I use sound tactics in my engagements. These (and some liberally-applied Inspirations) have usually seen me through, although the hospital staff has seen me around at times, too. 
Since Issue 3 went live, I've gotten to be on a first-name basis with the hospital staff, because I'm in there so much. My enjoyment, which was very high during beta and all the way through Issues 1 & 2 (even with massive debt because of the Rikti Sword bug ), has dropped considerably, because I can no longer follow through on storyarcs due to the increased boss levels. Too many times I've taken a mission and what was described as a "rescue the kidnapped victim" turned into a "Rescue Hostage, Defeat All Enemies" when I zoned into the mission itself. And too many times the missions I take have un-announced bosses in them. Bosses that mean either certain debt (usually one- to two-shotted) or three or four runs to the contact for more Inspirations.
My ability to complete the biggest draw the game has for me, the storyarcs themselves, has been "nerfed" (for lack of a better term ).
If I wanted a FPS game, I'd go play UT2004. If I wanted adventure and depth-of-story, I'd go play Uru. I'd like a good mix of both, which is what I was enjoying with CoH until last week. At this point, though, the game has become tedious and, frankly, frustrating because of the changes to the bosses.
I'm all for the difficulty slider. I think it's a fabulous idea to allow folks who want harder missions to be able to get them. I don't agree with the changes to the bosses, and would like to have had the choice to make them more difficult myself, instead of having such a broad-sweeping change implemented that affects me so negatively.
I desperately want to enjoy the journey again. Right now, though, I feel like I've been carjacked into an industrial manufacturing zone, and I can't lock the doors or turn the car around. 
First things first. SokMunki that is a great avatar picture. Original micronauts are the greatest!
I thought Statesman made it quite clear what the goal of the boss level bump was. Many here have come up with creative ways that would incentivize teaming as well or perhaps better than what was done. I suspect NONE of those ideas could be done with as little coding or impact to the rest of the game.
If NCSoft had infinite resources they could implement all the great ideas everyone here suggests. They do not. Like everything, bumping the bosses a level was a compromise. Given the past responsiveness of the Cryptic folks I am confident if an alternative way of reaching the same goal can fit within the very real resource constraints then they will do it.
What of the suggestions, including one of my own, to make the difficulty slider go both up AND down? As long as you make it onerous to move it down game balance could be preserved and perhaps that would not take too much coding?
[ QUOTE ]
The other major problem with teaming for those of us that like the story elements is that if I work with a team of three, we won't all be able to complete all of our story arcs. Even soloing every arc, it's difficult to get them all in without out-leveling them, especially if you are trying to get in all the Task Forces as well. With the extra experience gained from running all of even one other person's missions along with my own, I would never have been able to complete all the arcs. This situation would be compounded in a group of three or four. Savoring the stories often just isn't practical in even small group situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely true.
I have one dedicated soloist character (hasn't even done the TFs & Trials) who's completed every single one of the story arcs through her level (36). Granted, that won't be possible post-40, with all the AVs, but that's fine, I planned to retire her once her mission slots became entirely clogged with AVs.
My other main character is a dedicated team member (dark/dark defender - so heavily specialized as a "deftroller" she has problems with packs of blues & greens). The group is regularly only three members, occasionally four (our fifth has quit the game), & we've managed to do, at most, two of each person's story arcs in each level range. And those have been completed in such a haphazard way - trying to do equal numbers of everyone's missions - that even I, who've already done the arcs with the other character, have problems following what exactly it is we're doing.
Before Issue 3, you never had to defeat the auto-turret, the auto-turrets went away when its creator was destroyed (just like device blasters' auto-turrets go away when the blaster is defeated). For some reason, under Issue 3, the auto-turrets stay away (but device blasters' auto-turrets still go away).
Maybe the operations engineers union threatened to go on strike because Sappers were so overpowered.
Never heard a good reason for this, it's not like people were saying "Oh boy, Malta missions, this will be easy!"
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
[ QUOTE ]
As for why we put Bosses in missions at all in other words, why isnt everything solo-able the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think an important fact you're missing, Statesman, is that there is a HUGE difference between "encouraging teaming" and mandatory teaming.
In the military we call this "Mandatory Fun." This is when someone higher up says something like "You're going to run this 5K and you're going to like it, darn it!" For the 5% of people who actually like to run, that's all well and good. For the rest of us, it sucks.
I solo my 32 EMP/ELEC Def for 2 reasons: 1) I can't always be on the same time as my team and don't have the time to find a pick-up, and 2) I liked the challenge. Seriously, anyone with a decent build can solo a Scrapper, Tank, or possibly a Blaster. Everyone who thinks that they are the "Uber-soloist" needs to try it with a Def or Controller and see how things change.
Now, post I3 I can still solo some missions, thanks to Invisibility, and have even taken down 1 or 2 bosses on my own, but a 10-15 minute 1-on-1 fight with a generic boss has got to be the most tedious, boring grind in the game. Despite being a "support" AT, I'm still a Superhero dammit! I want to feel like it again. If the bosses are not rolled back, at the very least up the damage of the Def and Cont secondaries so we stand more of a chance.
We'll be discussing this on Justice Radio tonight, I'd welcome anyone's in-game e-mails or instant messages about this topic and the others we're going to discuss today. The show starts at 3 p.m. Pacific, 6 p.m. Eastern and will last for 2 hours.
To tune in, head to www.justiceradio.us and click the Tune In now Link.
While your there check our forums, there is a Jester's Court forum dedicated to this show you are always welcome to post thoughts there as well.
Hope you tune in!
-DJ Jester
w00t Radio
[ QUOTE ]
Tell me, does anyone actually enjoy street hunting?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.
[ QUOTE ]
bumping the bosses a level was a compromise
[/ QUOTE ]
A compromise of what exactly?
Look, I'm no programmer, but I seriously doubt rolling back the boss-damage would be that hard to do. As has been said many, many, many, many times by many, many, many, many people: if you want the game more challenging, you now have the option to make it so! The increase in boss-damage was totally unnecessary and, to a lot of people, quite possibly a HUGE game-breaking issue. Not only does the slider NOT have the option to make your missions easier, the easiest setting (hard-boiled) has been made more difficult by upping the damage bosses do. It just does NOT make any sense!
And I am not speaking for myself here, since I play a scrapper. I DO however have a few defender alts that had already become quite hard to play after issue 2. Now I don't even touch them anymore. They're still in whatever zone I left them, gathering dust. Sadly.
[ QUOTE ]
The developers CANNOT please both groups.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why refute the refuting of a 'tired old argument' by coming up with another argument that is quickly on its way to becoming 'tired and old' as well?
The devs CAN please both groups by rolling back the boss-damage and taking a long, hard and serious look at the supposedly-long-existing-but-never-worked-on-bug of bosses appearing in missions when the mission text makes no mention of them.
By doing this, they will please those who prefer to solo.
Put more incentives into the game that will encourage, NOT force, grouping. Better XP, more influence, more and better enhancement drops, temp powers, etc.
By doing this, they will have made grouping preferable to solo, without making solo-play impossibly hard. Teamers satisfied! And, as an added bonus, they might just pull more players into the whole teaming gig. WAY more than just simply making solo-unfriendly missions. If I, for whatever reason, cannot or don't want to group, I would be mighty POed if my entire mission-tray was filled with unsoloable missions. A lot of people have made VERY valid points about why teaming is not (always) an option for them, like real life issues (kids, family, work, other hobbies, etc.), playing at odd hours, bad experiences with pick-up groups, bad experiences with supergroups that disband as quickly as they were formed, etc.
Please, take off your blinds, and see what I'm saying: they can ABSOLUTELY please everybody. At least as far as this whole discussion is concerned.
Two cents. There ya go. Enjoy them.