Just my US$0.02 on the post-I3 bosses.
My L34 bs/inv scrapper pre-I3 used to be able to solo most
bosses that conned orange. That seemed a touch too easy to
me, but hey. Who am I to complain about the XP gains that they
gave me?
Now, post-I3, I can barely hold my own soloing against bosses conning
white. Yeow. Forget about soloing in missions that have a single boss,
inspirations or not.
From my perspective, I would suggest that pre-I3 the bosses were a
touch too easy, post-I3 they are more than a touch too difficult.
Perhaps there is a happy medium in-between?
I'm not a power-gamer or even a particularly good gamer, really. I think
that you would call me an "enthusiastic" player, perhaps.
Crystal
Faelchu - L34 bs/inv scrapper - Guardian
LadyBlue - L30 emp/rad defender (with a great deal of gratitude
towards the Defiant B*stards SG) - Liberty
LadyDespair - L23 dark/dark scrapper - Liberty
CrystalMoon - L17 bs/reg scrapper - Infinity
LadyFreak - L15 rad/ff controller - Freedom
ExWife - L15 ar/dev blaster - Infinity
(this postscript added after finally reading Stateman's post on the invulnerability changes in the Dev Corner forum - Well, duh. Now I understand, I am seeing two effect combine: ++bosses, -inv. Eh. Back to teaming, I suppose. But you know? It was really nice to have the option to solo in order to clear mind from the effects of a really bad teaming...)
I'm hopping on board the "bosses are too tough now" train. They just do too much damage and seriously hamper soloing.
I guess, technically, in most cases we're not supposed to be able to solo bosses.
This is just wild speculation, but I have a suspicion that these changes were some kind of mandate, perhaps from upper management, perhaps from investors.
Honestly, these changes are somewhat more consistent with what was described in the manual. However, if this were a serious enough issue I would have expect this fix to have been made within the first month of the game's release. It could have even been put in place during beta.
It would have gone over much better then as it wouldn't impact much of the playerbase. By the time people hit these levels with the boss changes they'd just take things as they were. No one had played the game any other way.
As it stands people have been playing a different type of game. Its been a game where soloing is a reality for most players. Its been friendly to casual gamers. In some regards things were a big on the easy side, hence the anticipation in the introduction of a difficulty slider.
Having these boss changes put in place now is causing a big upset in the expections many players had of CoH. I can't say for sure, but this is the strongest reaction I've seen against anything in the game to date. And yhe developers appear to be more adamant about keeping these changes in place than they have at any time in the past.
I'm having trouble justifying these changes, especially in light of the mission difficulty option. A boss difficulty boost may be a good idea, but did it have to be so severe? What is the rationale behind all this?
Did they find that people were levelling too quickly? I didn't think there was that much of a lack of content that there was a risk of driving players away. Especially since we've been getting consistent updates. Or do they want to slow the game down in anticipation of City of Villains.
Did they determine that the number of players leaving the game at higher levels were greater than the number of players they risked losing to these changes?
I'm thinking out loud about what may be driving all this. I'm guessing orders have come from higher up to change things, particularly in light of the release of a few popular MMORPGs. Then again, I may be completely wrong about all this.
Another game a while back had problems with peopel reaching the end game too quickly, that was Dark Age of Camelot. However at the end of the road to L50 there you would go out and do massive player vs player wars so there was a reason to get to 50 and then a reason to stay once you were at 50. Slowing down progression to get to 50 is very EQ like and no one likes it and it's why EQ has such a bad name amoung a lot of players that left it.
As I have said in many other threads, this game is not everquest, it's not DAoC it's a super hero game. Super heros shouldn't be brought down by tommy the noob thug with a knife, or hsi brother or his dad. Your hero shoudl be brought down by teh equivalent of the green goblin. Villans weren't always Magneto but that's what I3 turned them into
So if bosses are supposed to be magneto and lut's are supposed to be electro than what are AV's? Thanos? More importantly how the heck does this "game world" function when there are like 12x's more magnetos than there are cyclopses or wolverenes?
The numbers in this game do not and honestly never have matched up. If you want the game to slow you down a bit then jsut amke all the individual fights take longer or make the XP youg et from them small but don't make them harder to force people to group. All that does is seriously limit the peopel that have (and will continue) to leave games that overly stress group play.
Why do peopel liek to solo as opposed to group? It takes a long time to get a group togeather and get them all on the same page. we're looking at like 30 min on a good day and like an hour and a half on a bad day. Who the heck wants to spend half of your gaming time doing nothing but social management?
Get a SG you say? Get a solid group of friends who play you say? Well a lot of people had that but a lot of people lost those people to other games or because of issues within this game. making this game somehow try to force the rest of us to band togeather when there are other games out there that might give you other options is a bit risky.
Thankfully my tank can still solo, however the rest of my characters are a different story.
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They were tough enough already after issue 2 came out. I abandoned a number of alts dying too often because of those, and now they're even higher.
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And so what about this didn't tell you you should be avoiding bosses?
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"Doing it right" - according to who? You? Do you play my build? Or anyone else's who've posted? Or a flavor of the week build?
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Has absolutely nothing to do with powers or slotting or anything else but strategy. Think about it. If you kill more Lt's and minions in the time that you would have been spending trying to kill a boss, you get more experience. And you don't risk debt so much. Get it?
My 'flavor of the week' is a storm/elec defender, as he has been for oh, say about the past 7 months.
Many bosses in missions are not integral to completing them...and if you street sweep, you have the choice anyway. If you think bosses are too tough, then DON'T FIGHT THEM unless absolutely necessary. Otherwise, bite the bullet, walk outside the mission, and ask for somebody to help you kill that last boss.
My apologies if my rhetoric tip-toed into the hyperbolic.
I did indeed mean that if you touched the slider as a soloist and ran into a boss, it would be suicidal. I guess there are leet builds that can solo +1 bosses, but the average player doesn't come to these boards to find out the best combos before creating his character. And if you have a combo that can solo +3 bosses, enjoy your leetness while you can.
Bosses happen.
Scorus
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Thank you for explaining that bosses are tougher than minions and lieuts. I think everybody knew that already, since that's always been the case. In case you'd like to participate in the conversation, the question is the new RELATIVE toughness of bosses as compared to other enemies, which you didn't really address.
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Here is the quote that I was answering directly in the OP:
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Again this boss was two levels below me and actually conned white to me. I should have no more problems killing it as I would a minion of equal level.
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Now that we've verified that I was actually taking part in the conversation...
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And your solution (go find other mobs to kill) doesn't do much for people who have missions with bosses in them, does it? Not everybody street sweeps 100% of the time.
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As I just said in another post and am now repeating, many bosses are NOT integral to completing a mission (I think this was a change that was put in place in I2 because I don't remember any bosses that weren't integral to their missions before then, but my characters in general were lower level then so this may be an invalid conclusion).
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We tried the 1st Striga TF last night, and it was pretty fun: until a warwolf boss plowed through our team, one-shotting us left and right. I saw one teammate go down (a blaster), then he nailed me (a controller).
Being one shotted has never been fun. Being one shotted by something other than an AV or monster just sucks.
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A boss killed two squishies? Stop the presses!
Did you finish the TF successfully?
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And your solution (go find other mobs to kill) doesn't do much for people who have missions with bosses in them, does it? Not everybody street sweeps 100% of the time.
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As I just said in another post and am now repeating, many bosses are NOT integral to completing a mission (I think this was a change that was put in place in I2 because I don't remember any bosses that weren't integral to their missions before then, but my characters in general were lower level then so this may be an invalid conclusion).
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What about those stealthed Kill All missions? The bosses in those are integral to completing the mission. I had a couple of those (at lvl38) that started out a Rescue Hostages mission, but somehow turned into a Kill All.
It seems that the 3 missions I had available post-I3 were ALL stealthed Kill All (all from Cadao Kestrel). No choice but to take the bosses out too.
Oh come on, the answer is obvious, and I've seen it bandied about around here enough. Roll it back to where it was as a base and let the SLIDER juice it up. Or is that too simple?
I *do* have a small bone to pick if I can't solo a mission anymore, because the vast majority of this game was intended to be soloable. It's been my understanding that that's ALWAYS been a part of the CoH ideal. And I don't mean ALL of the bosses all of the time. I don't mind the occasssional "Oooops! I think I'll wait for a level or grab a couple friends to clear this one" kind of missions. Heck, I STILL have nightmares of the first Red Boss Bone Daddy I ever ran into. But those are cool.
Does this mean that I can expect that same treatment EVERY mission, post I3?
If so, then that just plain s*cks.
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Here is the quote that I was answering directly in the OP:
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Again this boss was two levels below me and actually conned white to me. I should have no more problems killing it as I would a minion of equal level.
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Now that we've verified that I was actually taking part in the conversation...
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Unless they've changed the conning system in the game, he still has a point. "White" means you SHOULD be able to handle the enemy. If you can't handle a white boss, there's a flaw somewhere.
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As I just said in another post and am now repeating, many bosses are NOT integral to completing a mission (I think this was a change that was put in place in I2 because I don't remember any bosses that weren't integral to their missions before then, but my characters in general were lower level then so this may be an invalid conclusion).
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And many, many are. So how do you solve the problem for the tons of missions that are?
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A boss killed two squishies? Stop the presses!
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Which would be a cutting retort if my statement was "A boss managed to kill me and another character during a fight."
The difference, however, is that the damn thing one-shotted us. Getting one shotted just isn't fun to me... I accept it on some rare occasions (like AVs), but not with a single regular enemy in a mission.
And he actually killed more than two, but I SAW the two (myself included) go down in one hit each.
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Did you finish the TF successfully?
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Yes we did... after several players dropped due to the difficulty, the number of bosses scaled down significantly and it became playable again at that point.
Sadly, we had less deaths to the A/V (zero) than we did to that one boss.
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I'm hopping on board the "bosses are too tough now" train. They just do too much damage and seriously hamper soloing.
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Died four or so times today. Once by one-shot. First time in a while I've died like that. Some people will say that's good and brings excitement. Personally, I was annoyed.
(I should add I usually die maybe once a week tops.)
One thing that seriously concerns me about this issue is how deafening the silence from the devs on this issue is... I see States having no problem replying to a Kudos thread, but on this issue that seems to be causing a huge uproar, and making unhappy many of the people that help provide for his salary I see NOTHING.
Actually, my biggest problem with the whole thing is that wayyyy back in September or so, States said (and I quote): "I don't want forced grouping."
Well, if we got one of these missions, and we want to complete it in order to get through to the next part of the story arc, and there's no freakin way we can solo it, then what am I being told I need to do?
Yep, that's right. I'm forced to group. Or forget about the storyarc altogether. Considering how some of those storyarcs are tied to badges and accolades, Ummm.... no.
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One thing that seriously concerns me about this issue is how deafening the silence from the devs on this issue is... I see States having no problem replying to a Kudos thread, but on this issue that seems to be causing a huge uproar, and making unhappy many of the people that help provide for his salary I see NOTHING.
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Of course there's nothing from them. This is the Vision (tm) and if people don't agree with the Vision (tm), they are free to cancel their account.
After all, there are always more powergamers than there are casual players, correct? And casual players only contribute a minority amount of income to the corporation right?
/end sarcasm
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Hey, with that thinking, you could be a Cryptic dev! Apply now!
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Hey with that pessimism you could be walking the streets with a sign saying "The End is Near!"
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Your right, we can adapt... Now my blaster can just avoid his missions altogether so he won't get beat down by generic bosses! YAY, how fun! Thank you for that nugget of wisdom...
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You're blaster is no hero. He's a quitter. Remind me not to activate the WhinerSignal for you.
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"Doing it right" - according to who? You? Do you play my build? Or anyone else's who've posted? Or a flavor of the week build?
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Has absolutely nothing to do with powers or slotting or anything else but strategy. Think about it. If you kill more Lt's and minions in the time that you would have been spending trying to kill a boss, you get more experience. And you don't risk debt so much. Get it?
My 'flavor of the week' is a storm/elec defender, as he has been for oh, say about the past 7 months.
Many bosses in missions are not integral to completing them...and if you street sweep, you have the choice anyway. If you think bosses are too tough, then DON'T FIGHT THEM unless absolutely necessary. Otherwise, bite the bullet, walk outside the mission, and ask for somebody to help you kill that last boss.
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Nothing but strategy? Which strategy is that? You seem to be thinking that there's only 1 boss in a mission and therefor you can simply avoid him. Fine. But almost every mission I've had has several bosses in them, and they are usally surrounded by mobs. You attack the mob the boss comes running. The mission I had the other night (save 16 lawyers from Devouring Earth) had a boss in every mob.
You have to kill the mob to save the lawyer. So I went in with 4 total players. First boss we take on 1 hit kills me and 2 others. Only the defender lived. OK. Come back with inspirations, stealth on, grant invis, buffs from the defender, and we take down that boss.
Move around the corner and theres another one. And 20 feet across the room is another full mob with a boss, and another, and another. Gee guess there's a boss for every lawyer we have to save. Try to take the next mob (with the boss mixed in cause we can't attack the mob without aggroing the boss. Well we all die.
So we follow your strategy and go recruit more players to help, and recruit 4 more players. Now we got a team of 8 for a mission set for 4 players. We got 4 defenders buffing the crap out of us, and still the whole team dies 3 times. At one point we come up against 5 bosses surrounded by DE mob. Each boss can 1 hit kill us. What's the strategy for that one?
They're not standing apart from each other so you can't pull, they're blocking your way, and you have to kill them to save a lawyer. You can run back down the elevators , but then the bosses heal by the time the buffs are ready and you come back up. The only way we won was by killing 1 boss, dying from the ones left, going to the hospital, reloading on inspirations, and doing it again until we had 2 bosses left.
So the only real strategy is to go find a player several levels higher who can come in and kill the boss(s) for you. If I can find a high-end player to do that for me on every mission, I might as well have them powerlevel me.
Don't assume that we don't know strategy, and that's why we get killed. I've been playing since day 1. I've finished every mission I've ever been given. I'm not level 50 because I didn't powerlevel my way up. I've taken my time, finished almost every story arc for my level, done every task force, and have almost every single badge that my level can attain. I've got several alts, and I rarely get debt because I take my time, and strategize. The most debt I've ever had at lvl 31 is 50,000 (bad task force team). From that 1 mission I got 64,000 debt, and about half a xp bar. The difficulty of the mission doesn't equal the reward.
I don't want to start avoiding missions because there's no way to finish them without racking up massive debt or getting a high level player to do my job for me.
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Again this boss was two levels below me and actually conned white to me. I should have no more problems killing it as I would a minion of equal level.
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Unless they've changed the conning system in the game, he still has a point. "White" means you SHOULD be able to handle the enemy. If you can't handle a white boss, there's a flaw somewhere.
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That has never been true. Even back in the early days, everyone in Perez Park knew or learned quickly that Bone Daddies were to be avoided, even white ones, unless the players were part of a strong team. Nor has a Paragon Protector ever been as easy as any other Crey minion of the same con color.
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And many, many are. So how do you solve the problem for the tons of missions that are?
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You adapt your tactics, as you did to complete the TF. (Forcibly, I'll grant you...)
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A boss killed two squishies? Stop the presses!
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Which would be a cutting retort if my statement was "A boss managed to kill me and another character during a fight."
The difference, however, is that the damn thing one-shotted us. Getting one shotted just isn't fun to me... I accept it on some rare occasions (like AVs), but not with a single regular enemy in a mission.
And he actually killed more than two, but I SAW the two (myself included) go down in one hit each.
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And this was a Warwolf? Which I believe are scrappers? That can do critical hits? Color me unsurprised.
All I can say to those who think the game is tough the way it is now is: don't play CoV.
Like many, I'm also gonna have to /agree that the bosses are a little too difficult. Not for me though, as I'm MA/Regen. I can leap into a mob of 7 +1 mobs including a Boss at once (unless they're Warriors) and take every one of them down with barely a dent in my hp (and with only single-target attacks, at that).
However, I too would like to eventually level up my many alts, including a healthy share of squishies, and I fear the day taking one of them against the new Bosses. Even as a Scrapper, I fear some of them. I exclude Warriors above, because the damage they do is horrendous at the best of times...I can't imagine what a 25+ Warrior Boss would do to me these days.
I took on an even-level (25 at the time) Consigliere (Family Boss) last night, and frankly, I wish MY Gravity Controllers had that kind of damage! His Propel did better than 300 damage, and I have my damage resistance 6-slotted and loaded with green SOs. If I had been any other AT, that would have been a nice chunk of debt. As it was, I got some VERY nice xp for very little risk, but I don't really want to rub that in. 
In other words, yeah, I'm sitting on my Defenders and Controllers for the moment. Maybe forever.
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And this was a Warwolf? Which I believe are scrappers? That can do critical hits? Color me unsurprised.
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I believe Warwolves are listed as Tankers. I'm not positive about that, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they can't do criticals, but there you go. Wait...two criticals in a row? I remember doing that once. Once.
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All I can say to those who think the game is tough the way it is now is: don't play CoV.
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You realize that's a completely non-sequitur comment, right? Unless you're very well-informed and know that in CoV you'll have to routinely defeat x number of player characters to advance...which I truly hope is not the case (although it'd make sense). Even if that IS so, however, I consider other players to be the basic equivalent of AVs, or Elites. We're talking standard run-of-the-mill Bosses here.
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Uh, I think he means the description the contact gives you when you take the mission, not the mission title displayed in your nav bar.
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Which you still can't read (unless I missed something) the entire mission objectives without accepting the mission. I have accepted missions thinking, "Oh, this should be fun - Go retrieve %item% from the %bad guys%" Only to find in the briefing that the text reads more like "Defeat %named boss% and his minions and recover %item%"
Once I have a mission, I want a way to clear it from my log if it isn't something I can handle. I DO NOT team well, I play games so I don't have to be social. If I wanted to chat with people, I would go hang out with friends. A lot of teams ask me why I don't chat, what's wrong with me that I don't type "LOL" everytime one of them says something remotely humourous. I don't want to team, I don't care for the changes in the bosses as it makes it next to impossible for me to solo, with ANY of my chars (blasters, defenders, scrappers, I even play a tank and a controller occasionally).
If you want to make it so some missions aren't soloable - fine, put it in the text when the contact says "Hey, this could use your attention" or allow us to drop a mission from our log if it proves "impossible" to do with our play type/style.
I have at least one character that I have 3 missions on the books with, I have to street hunt to level a few times so I can try to do those missions - and work off a ton of debt gained trying (solo and with pickup teams that turned out awful).
Global @Nomme & @Nomme Again
Protector server
From what I'm reading, the real problem with beefy-bosses are TFs, specifically, Respec TFs.
In a situation where you have as many bosses, as team-mates, if not more, coming at you, it comes down to the scrappers and tankers to manage all that aggro/pain. If a scrapper/tanker can't successfully control 2 or 3 bosses at a time, that team will lose.
Of course, if the team doesn't have tankers and/or scrappers, it might be a wash anyway.
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And so what about this didn't tell you you should be avoiding bosses?
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I wont' avoid bosses because I am playing a superhero. If I can, I will take on whatever seems likely. That's WHY I play the game. Not to team. Not to sulk around and not fight. I do it because that's what the game is for.
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Has absolutely nothing to do with powers or slotting or anything else but strategy. Think about it. If you kill more Lt's and minions in the time that you would have been spending trying to kill a boss, you get more experience. And you don't risk debt so much. Get it?
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No, but apparently you don't understand. If I leave a boss standing by the roadside, and there's an NPC he's been hassling, I also don't get the npc influence bonus or drop they're waiting to give me. So I get to watch someone else take that while they 'help' me finish a boss off? No. Wrong.
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My 'flavor of the week' is a storm/elec defender, as he has been for oh, say about the past 7 months.
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Oh okay - a storm electric defender, which is to say, the "blaster" of defenders? Hrm. Yeah. Has nothing to do with build, and all strategy. Bull.
I have *exceptional* strategy. When I can't use it along with a ton of inspirations to solo something, it's not me or my character's build. It is, as is painfully obvious from every other post here supporting me, the game design.
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Many bosses in missions are not integral to completing them...and if you street sweep, you have the choice anyway. If you think bosses are too tough, then DON'T FIGHT THEM unless absolutely necessary. Otherwise, bite the bullet, walk outside the mission, and ask for somebody to help you kill that last boss.
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I know that within certain missions (and see above posts regarding the number of mission based bosses that are missed by flavor text) that you "don't have to" get the bosses. When I can avoid them, you bet I do.
"Bite the bullet."
But as another poster put so well, we are heroes - we are playing people to whom fighting this war against crime is their lifeblood. If I leave that villian to do his deeds again, should it be in the plotline of this game, he WILL do other things and heroes pay the price again and again. I'll only come up against a villian boss in another mission. I won't hide all the time.
But nor should I ever for a moment back away and say I better get someone else to do this for me. I should be allowed the option to say "I better get someone to HELP me do this" but your statements have really given me the bad taste in my mouth that says you don't know squat about a *defender* like an emp/dark. I've been playing her for only 3 months, but solid. And as I've said before, I play solo more than 90% of the time.
I know the way to work a mob. I know tactics for my toon. VERY WELL. But I don't like being at the mercy of a team mate who decides to use a power poorly, run away or toward something at the wrong moment, or other such disasters. Read the other threads about why we don't like teaming. THey're quite true and edifying.
I can take out an even con mob of 5 guys, minions or lt's, with absolutely no assistance whatsoever. I can take on lt's and bosses pre-3 with thought and care. LIKE I SHOULD BE ABLE TO.
But not being given that opportunity means I must suffer to take on only lt's, only minions, and never bosses, because I'm almost assured to fail if I try the risky bosses? Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
I don't like playing scrappers. Period. I do not have to play a scrapper. But they're the only ones able to take on bosses now, and even they are having trouble. It's not me, my tactics, my build or my inexcusable desire to solo at fault here. It is, obviously, the difficulty level being too high for bosses that used to be tough.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
While I understand your complaint, your situation is in large part your own doing. Being antisocial is more of an impediment now than before Issue 2. I solo when I am not in groups, because it gets boring sitting around and doing nothing, and like you because often I want to do missions on my own. Similar to Batman. I don't think it's bad to want to "go it alone" because that is QUITE a common theme in comics.
But so is teaming up when you fight villains too big for you to handle on your own. Hence teamups, comic crossovers, even super hero leagues.
Just keep in mind that being a hero and being super are 2 different things. You didn't play this game just to be super, right?
Be a hero. Don't give up.
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Hey, with that thinking, you could be a Cryptic dev! Apply now!
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Hey with that pessimism you could be walking the streets with a sign saying "The End is Near!"
Uhm, ok... Sure... I'm sure that makes sense in your little world somewhere.
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Your right, we can adapt... Now my blaster can just avoid his missions altogether so he won't get beat down by generic bosses! YAY, how fun! Thank you for that nugget of wisdom...
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You're blaster is no hero. He's a quitter. Remind me not to activate the WhinerSignal for you.
If you say so. Sorry, I guess I just don't subscribe to your narrow little vision of things (thank god). I find it completely amazing that if you have any complaint that another person doesn't agree with your instantly a whiner. If you'd like to consider me a quitter be my guest, but usually if I find something that is heavily biased against me I don't see the need to keep "beating my head against the wall" so to speak.
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The fact that this change is seen as a "fix" by statesman simply makes me wonder what the devs are smoking, where I can get some, and how much it will cost me.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.