Idea to allow players of all levels PVP together

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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level play per has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that.


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The point is participation, particularly in team battles. Lower level characters should have something to offer as well with out being completely overshadowed. The advantage a highrer level character has is more power and more enhancemet slots and perhaps even better enhancements...damage based on level is completly arbitrary and is used as a way to control how players experince PVE content, but limiting damage based on level has no olace in PVP. The differeance between a level 46 and 48 in PVP should be negligble, but witht his system a player with a 6+ level advanage would still have a huge advantange...it just wouldn't be a given an good players would still have a chance against higher level characters. My main character is level 50 and I want the PVP system to be diverse and allow for fight 4 level 25 guys. I don't want to have to not engage with someone for no reason then they are only level 45.


I think this is a very good idea to negate the advantage of levels meant for PVE for PVP. I would suggest even an adjustment in HP to decrease the HP bonus based on level.

Griefing is sort of a different subject altogether. But ultimately, if Bob is consenting to PVP, and he sees a bunch of two level 2s coming after him, he -should- react to them wether he knows they're Carla and Sally or not. He's in a PVP zone or an arena or whatever, so he's expecting the fight anyway. It should be okay and fair. I don't think they'd impliment a free-for-all style PVP where you're given the opportunity to just keep killing the same person over and over anyway. Due to consent-ness, I don't think evening out the calcuations would pose that problem.

Yes, you got a point, I agree with that.

I was just posing a view point, that I have heard from some of the players. Some have stated that they cannot wait till PvP, so they can hunt down certain people, and make their life misserable.

If this is the case, then those players should be able to click on a "Accept Challenge" icon/button so that they cannot get jumped while exploring, or even having fun. This PvP should be optional, and not mandatory, since it is a "Stand-Alone" type of format.

I am just stating my opinion, and viewpoint, that is all, but I do see your point.

Yes it has already been stated in about every interveiw I have read that PVP will only be consentual so greifing is a poor excuse for not making PVP this way. You don't want to be bothered by it set your options to auto decline PVP offers.

As I said, there ARE things that can be done and we're looking at them right now. It may not be a level range cap but there are things...

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What I am trying to get at, is that you cannot make it so a level 2 will have any chance to hit a level 44. That level 44, whatever vice he has with the world, has earned his right at that level.

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I disagree, Bob has not earned any rights by leveling...This is Elitist thinking and is as mind poisoning as racism!

And why does anything bob earn while playing PvE entitle him to any advantages in PvP?

Plus this is not how it works in practice in PvE anyway. I have a 45th level tanker and if I want to keep leveling I still need to take on mobs +1 or +2 levels above me and they are no easier to defeat than when I was 22th level in fact fighting 24nd level mobs was easier than the 47th level mobs I have to fight now. Almost everything has Psy damage which mean my resist are basically useless and so many thing in the high level drain energy that toggle drops are even more likely not less. I also need to defeat about 100x more mobs to get the same % experience that I was getting a 22nd level. My point is that the game does not because easier and easier as you level in PvE where their is no rewards for fighting something > 4 level below you, So why should it be easy to fight lower level players in PvP.

Level should be meaningless in PvP! Level is an artificial device use to move the story lines along and is not needed or wanted in PvP.

If you want a large PvP communities than two thing are needed.

First Consensual only PvP (we have be promised that already)
Second a level Playing field which level scaling to target will provide. I'm not asking for any changes to PvE. I just want scaling applied to PvP.

All other PvP ideals can be added to the first two. If we have the first two then I’m ok will most of the others.

I have also heard allot of complaints that 40th toons don't want to see there ubor attacks only doing 70 point to a 10th level toon instead of 300 points, I can understand this, but there is an easy fix for this.

Just have the attack put up the big number 300 points but have the effect still be only 70 points to the 10th level toon. The high level toons can see their big numbers and see a noticeable drop in their opponents hit points and won't even know that they only did 70 points of actual damage.

Does that work?

With scaling level you can still have all your level restricted zones if you want or anything else for that matter. It will change nothing accept to make level meaningless in PvP.

Higher level toons will still have a big advantage, many more powers to choose from, more fully slotted powers, both defensive powers and attack powers developed, as well as a good travel power.

Low level toons will not have well develop powers, the will either be heavy def or offence but not both, and with few if any fully slotted powers, and possibly no travel power. High level toons will still have all the advantages they just won’t be gods.

Don't be elitist snobs, being high level and having a few low level toons give you a big challenge should not hurt your egos.

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How about this then:

The target is considered "even level" relative to your attacks.

So, a level 10 attacking a level 40 would have the same chance to hit as if he was hitting a level 10, and do the damage he would normally do against a level 10 (which the 40th would laugh at, but get enough 10ths attacking him and it should eventually worry him)

Conversely the 40th attacking a 10th will still wipe the floor with him, damage wise, but if that 10th level had defence buffs (SR scrapper with bubbles - for example) then the chance to hit him would get "floored" rather than getting jacked because of level.

If I was a 10th against a 40th, 1 on 1, I expect to get pasted, but if enough of us gang up on him, I want at least a *chance* that we can pull him down, granted some of us are going to be worm food, but I expect that.

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This is actually a much better description of how the "monster code" works.

Oh -- and everyone let's be calm. There's still a lot of time and a lot of testing before anything is finalized.

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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level player has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that.

Lord Recluse

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I have to totally disagree there, in this situation I'd say that its not damage which defines the heroes... its the powers. I don't care if I hit and see 10 damage over the other players head or hit and see 10000 because the fact is that I hit them and I have all these other powers to attack with as well.

Yes a higher level character SHOULD recieve a bonus in PvP and frankly it should be the powers that supply that. A level 1 with 2 powers should be able to go against a level 50 character and yes they'd have a damned hard time winning with the damage scaled simply because of the higher level heroes have dozens of more powers and slots.

Its kind of like being examplared, I lose the powers but keep the slots bonus. Or I'm sidekicked and I gain a damage and defence bonus but stuck with only the powers I originally had.

You claim that people won't enjoy it... how about you stop assuming that people won't and try it? You want to innovate so in beta give it a go, break from the tried and tested MMO PvP gudelines like you did when you made a Superhero themed MMO and give this a try. What will it honestly hurt since no one has tried if before?

Here is the a few points to consider...

1. No more ganking lowbies.. at all
This would eliminate the one-shots because there would be no way to do it, fighting a lowbie does mean you might win however they don't suddenly get defeated before they got a shot off. Wouldn't it be nice to have the first MMO with PvP where in order to kill a lowbie you actually need to make an effort, yes you'll probably win because you have more powers however it'll be a longer fight with the chance for the lowbie to actually win!

No penalty to attacking lowbies will be enough
Plain and simple, if you allow a level 50 to maintain their damage over a level 1 then you WILL find people who attack the lowbies out of sheer spite. If you place a loss of influence on it then so what, they'd just build up the influence surplus and do it. And the fact is that customer service won't be allowed to punish them because it'll be within the rules of the game. If you have a debt punishment then people can still work it off.

....and finally the big pro for scaling damage to make all heroes an equal level in PvP....

A huge PvP player base and reused content
The ability to attack more people is inherantly fun, its not good to be wandering around looking for someone who is your level. If you make all heroes equal level than you ensure that higher level players make use of the lower level zones and content. Thus making then appreciate things they'd not have any reason to go and see. You want to make zones have a theme to them but what good is that for a level 50 who is never going to have a reason to return to Kings Row or Perez Park?

Overal I see alot of pros and only one con and that one is because you and your team is ASSUMING that us players wouldn't like to have this damage/accuracy equalizer. Me personally, I'd not care and I'm sure I'm not alone make everyone an even con to one another and let the powers and tactics decide who is the actual winner. It'll be a battle of pure skill then not one of stats and levels.

Great post, I wish I was as talented a writer as you are. I'm afraid I'm not helping the cause much because I'm a poor writer.

If only I could talk to these guys face to face.

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This is actually a much better description of how the "monster code" works.

Oh -- and everyone let's be calm. There's still a lot of time and a lot of testing before anything is finalized.

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Frankly I'd say you should ask the community what we think about making all heroes con even to each other. You cannot deny as a developer that by allowing more interaction between players you're making the game more appealing however if you allow for highbies to attack lowbies then you're creating a frustrating situation.

How many people reading this would object to being able to be on even footing for damage and accuracy against another hero and let the powers themselves decide the outcome?

Me personally, its a fantastic solution from a gameplay point of view.

I know that the 'comic cultists' who try to partner City of Heroes to their favourite marvel/dc character universe would argue otherwise. 'The Hulk would ALWAYS beat up Spiderman in a straight fight' they'll say or 'Superman would totally own the Joker' so the shame should happen in the game.

But this isn't the comics, its City of Heroes and this is a universe with some balance to it for the sake of the game. Thats why you don't have tank mages so why break from common sense just to follow the trend of every MMO and RPG that has gone before? I know the publishers are nervous about 'new' ideas and want to stick to the tried and tested methods however PvP can be a messy issue because of its high griefing potential and that can cost the company player accounts even if they did consent to that aspect of the game.

Wouldn't it be nice to have as many heroes and villains involved in PvP because they don't have to worry about stepping out of a mission and being one-shooted by some level 50 twelve year old? If you make accuracy and damage as if everyone is even con at least you'd need to hit someone half a dozen times to defeat them.

As you said, alot of time and alot of testing yet to come. So why not give both systems and try on the test center for the PvP Arena in Issue 4 and see which works best?

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As I said, there ARE things that can be done and we're looking at them right now. It may not be a level range cap but there are things...

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I can see the scenario now...

Doctor Death: *yawn* What a nice day, I think I'll find some heroes to pound into the ground since I trained in my new Ultradeath megaball attack last night.

*moments later Dr Death teleports into Independance Port*

Doctor Death: Mwahahahaaa, run foolish heroes I am her for your souls.

*a hero appears from the Steel Canyon entrance, stop suddenly and stares up at Doctor Death*

Doctor Death: Ahhh. One of those puny Freedom Flight heroes. I despise them and their leader the Crimson Jade!

Freedom Fighter X: Hey Doc, you *bleep* your momma's *bleep* and *bleeeeeeeeeep*

Doctor Death: Now you die!!!

*activates his Ultramega deathball... but it stops*

Doctor Death: Noooo.. I am powerless against this level 15 and his ultra incredible 'level cap' power!!!

*He then turns around to see Crimson Jade*

Doctor Death: Mwahahaha.. you fool. You have outleveled me. Your powers are nothing against me now Mwhahaaaaaa.


*days later*

Paragon City news reporter: In breaking news Doctor Death managed a complete take over of Kings Row last night during a raid that lasted only a few minutes as he stormed the cities main police station. Saddly no heroes of suitable security clearence were able to prevent this disaster and Statesman was quoted to say "Sorry, I'm cleared for Security Level 50 and I'm not allowed to attack a level 28 supervillain you know so don't blame me"



.. so that level cap ideas sounds like a really good idea from a fiction point of view eh?

I do think there's some point to there maybe being some kind of penalty for attacking up-level people, but it should cap at a certain (low) level of added accuracy difficulty, perhaps at the equivalent point in the PvE con system where the difficulty starts becoming exponential.

Level 50s' reward for their time and high level is _insane number of powers_. Not to mention 6-slotting in core choices. And perma-Hasten. And epic defenses from the pools for the weaker classes. And the funds to ++ all their SOs.

You don't need an "elitist" system to give you the benefits of the PvE con system. You _already are an elite_. When it comes to dealing with lowbies, you're _already_ Superman smacking around the Penguin.

If you were to go with the suggestion to make the two different arena modes available when the Arenas are implemented, I'd bet you a giant box of cookies[1] that the "monster con" arena would be the more often used.

[1] The cookies are also evil.

When you think about it if you have all heroes and villain con even to one another similar to the 'monster con' system then you'd still need a group of lower level heroes to take on a level 50 player.

Imagine the kind of havoc a level 50 controller could play with a level 1 tanker even in such a system. They could drop his defences with a hold and have the pets pound them into the ground so they wouldn't even need to maintain their damage bonus to win because they just have better tactics. However if you had a two controllers fighting one another than the higher one would still win because of the pets.

Thus you'd probably need around 3 low level heroes to take on a single level 50 controller. Which is actually quite fair and enjoyable.

(edit) In respect to the giant box of cookies bet. I'll geniuely take that bet and you can have that in writing. As much as you have the bullies who like to totally overpower and one-shot lowbies you'll find even more people who don't like getting one shotted and would enjoy and more fair system in which all heroes reguardless of level were fair game. Come to think of it... even the bullies will complain about being one-shotted by someone higher than them.

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How many people reading this would object to being able to be on even footing for damage and accuracy against another hero and let the powers themselves decide the outcome?

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For PvP? I have no opinion. I'm willing to try it. I suspect I won't like it, but we'll see.

For the game as it stands? No way. I like that KR and Perez aren't threats any more. I get nostalgic for Steel Canyon. Progressing through levels, and having certain zones filled with specific level ranges, gives the game a sense of scope and story. Someday, I'll be powerful enough to walk through Peregine Island and the Rikti Crash Zone, but not yet. I have much to do before I can face that challenge.

Plus, I'm an elitist jerk.

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This is actually a much better description of how the "monster code" works.

Oh -- and everyone let's be calm. There's still a lot of time and a lot of testing before anything is finalized.

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I think the monster code would work very well for PvP against foes with level disparity. This would at least give those with a much lower level a chance to defeat an "Uber" enemy if they use mass tactics.

One of the things I have always disliked about PvP was the fact that once a griefer gets to a high level he suddenly switches into a PvP the lowbie mode for no other purpose than to cause problems. Some code like this could mean he has to at least think about what he's doing before just griefing uncontrollably.

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How about this then:

The target is considered "even level" relative to your attacks.

So, a level 10 attacking a level 40 would have the same chance to hit as if he was hitting a level 10, and do the damage he would normally do against a level 10 (which the 40th would laugh at, but get enough 10ths attacking him and it should eventually worry him)

Conversely the 40th attacking a 10th will still wipe the floor with him, damage wise, but if that 10th level had defence buffs (SR scrapper with bubbles - for example) then the chance to hit him would get "floored" rather than getting jacked because of level.

If I was a 10th against a 40th, 1 on 1, I expect to get pasted, but if enough of us gang up on him, I want at least a *chance* that we can pull him down, granted some of us are going to be worm food, but I expect that.

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This is actually a much better description of how the "monster code" works.

Oh -- and everyone let's be calm. There's still a lot of time and a lot of testing before anything is finalized.

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Sweet... I love this one.

I'd never suggest such a system be implemented for PvE in general. it would just prevent the feeling of progressing through the game.

If you want some fiction for why all heroes and villains are equal levels then here's something which would fit the Paragon City theme.

All heroes naturally have a security level, this is not them developing but them being ALLOWED to train in certain powers that they inherantly have but you need to be skilled enough and trusted enough to use within the city limits. Thus all heroes are equal and so are villains. The difference is that while heroes need to have the cities permittion to use certain powers the villains need to have permittion from their allied villain organisations because they need to earn their trust before being allowed to wield more of your powers openly.

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I have played many mmorpg with PvP and the players who prefer PvE always out number the PvP by at least 8 to 1.

If you want the majority of the user base to participate in PvP then your going to have to remove the enhernt advantage level makes, as distasteful as that might be to some.

Other wise the PvP groups are going to be really lonely really fast!



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To the first part I disagree. Look at the WoW server pops. The PvP servers are high capacity and the PVE ones are Low. Current pop numbers are about 65% PVP 35% PVE. You have to remeber that there are games that are shedding players that lived on PVP, DAOC, Shadowbane.

Now, to the second point you are dead on. There should be no artificial advantage for level. However, your base power should be sufficient. If your power hits 75% of the time, it should hit 75% of the time against higher or lower level toons. If your power does 150 points of damage, that's what it should do across the board.

Shadowbane had a system like this and it worked very very well. While the game had many other issues, it did have the best balanced PVP of any game on the market. In fact my favorite moment was a group of 8 lvl 20 characters hunting getting jumped by a lvl 50 Channeler. In seconds 1/3 of us were dead, but no one ran and in the end, myself and one other were standing over the dead body of the lvl 50. It was an awesome moment and something that needs to be in this game as well.

The advantages for levels are:
Base damage increase (not based on who you target, but just your base dmg vs an even con)
More powers to choose from for better attack chains
More slots to get your base damage and effects up

1 v 1, a 50 is going to cream a 30 even without the acc and dmg bonus. However, a 50 might have to think twice before jumping into a group of 4 or 5 lvl 30 heroes.

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(edit) In respect to the giant box of cookies bet. I'll geniuely take that bet and you can have that in writing. As much as you have the bullies who like to totally overpower and one-shot lowbies you'll find even more people who don't like getting one shotted and would enjoy and more fair system in which all heroes reguardless of level were fair game. Come to think of it... even the bullies will complain about being one- shotted by someone higher than them.

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Wait, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? I was saying that an arena with the "monster con" code removing the artificial "con penalties/bonuses" between levels would be more popular than one with the current PvE style con. Clearly, cookies are confusing people. Especially me.

Perhaps this is because the cookies are evil.

Two concerns I have with the approach of treating PvP combat as equal levels:

1) HP difference still means the higher level hero will almost always win. Others have stated this as well but I think playtesting will be needed to see just how overpowering this is.

2) It's been stated that their chance to hit will be the same as if attacking an opponent of their same level. This seems to make Defense buffs/enhancements overpowered and Resistance buffs/enhancements of little value if you're the lower level hero. I don't see that you can get away from some kind of damage scaling in this approach.

I have to say, I would hope that the monster-code system would at least be tested during the beta for a few days. Since the code already exists, I think it would be worth trialing, datamining, and polling, rather than being discounted out of hand.
As a partial-compromise, a ranking system could be used to determine the con levels.
As an example, a level 2 would see anyone levels 1-10 as a white con, and anyone level 11-20 as a yellow con... and anyone level 41-50 as a purple con. The higher level characters gain the additional advantages of higher damage due to enhancements, higher defense and resistance if applicable, but a group of 8 rank 1 chars might have a chance against a single (red con) rank 4.

That what I want, Level to scale to target. so a 10th level payer targeting a 40th player will do 40th level base damage and a 40th levle player targeting a 10th level player will do 10th level damage.

If you want to post 40th level damage for the 40th level toons so they can feel good about their attack thats fine with me as long as the effect on the 10th level toon is 10th level damage.

I want PvP to scale to target and PvE to remain the same as is.

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To the first part I disagree. Look at the WoW server pops. The PvP servers are high capacity and the PVE ones are Low. Current pop numbers are about 65% PVP 35% PVE. You have to remeber that there are games that are shedding players that lived on PVP, DAOC, Shadowbane.

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I'd think that WoW and CoH are aiming at slightly different types of players...

I've heard some great stories about PvP in World of Warcraft, generally along the lines of "yeah, these two high-level undead decided to raid the city and we gave them a good fight before they maimed us horribly" or getting complimented by a +5 for putting up a good fight in a duel.

Come to think of it, all the stories seemed to involve trying desperately not to die at the hands of higher con enemies.

But then, fights last a lot longer in games like that. "...and then the Blaster showed me just how powerful Aim+Buildup+Snipe was at +10 con, then he phased and danced on my corpse while taunting my friends and daring me to rez" doesn't make for quite the same story.

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1) HP difference still means the higher level hero will almost always win. Others have stated this as well but I think playtesting will be needed to see just how overpowering this is.

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Which is fine. A higher level should win most of the time. However, most is a key word. Also, a higher level hero should not be able to walk through a group of players with the same ease as they do Green minions. A few lvl 20-30's should give a lvl 50 a run for her money.

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2) It's been stated that their chance to hit will be the same as if attacking an opponent of their same level. This seems to make Defense buffs/enhancements overpowered and Resistance buffs/enhancements of little value if you're the lower level hero. I don't see that you can get away from some kind of damage scaling in this approach.

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Why? A 30% debuff is just the same as fighting an even con which is something the game is designed for. Besides, the debuffers need to have a vital role as well.

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How many people reading this would object to being able to be on even footing for damage and accuracy against another hero and let the powers themselves decide the outcome?

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I object.

It makes no sense for a L50 controller to be shot in the back by an L14 blaster with a snipe and a followup, and die. With scaled damage, this is a likely situation. It doesn't make sense in terms of gameplay, and it doesn't make sense in terms of comic books, and it won't be fun. It may be annoying that a L50 blaster can one shot a L14 villain, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense than the reverse.

Similarly, an INV tanker by L32, if he is auto-scaled to his enemy, will be effectively unkillable one on one by anyone. A L50 Claws/Sword Scrapper, against a 90% capped Lethal resist L32 Tanker will not die at even-con damage. This is nonsensical.

It has nothing to do with powers, or with anything. It's power effectiveness... it should be scaled based on Combat Level. My L32 Unstoppable should not protect me as much against L50 attacks as it protects me against L32 attacks, nor should it protect me to a lesser degree against L1 attacks. It just doesn't make any sense, and it wouldn't be very fun, imo. My L50 sniper shot should rip apart anything below my level, and do considerable damage to anything of my level. It makes sense that an L1 Tanker's Temporary Invulnerability is not as effective as an enhanced and experienced L50.

To me, credible threats are enemies within a certain level range of me. I don't want to be afraid to stomp around AP or PP with my L45 Scrapper, and I won't want to be afraid of L1-40 villains in CoV, either. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I do agree with the guy who suggested a large team of L14s should be able to pose a threat, but it's just a matter of scale. The scale that works against L50 vs L1. =)

-D