Idea to allow players of all levels PVP together
By
abraxas,
Posted on: 2004-12-07 19:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Consensual PvP
the PvP you have to have to keep people happy because RPG game designers cant break the mould of avatar levels and death punishment.
Where is the genius who came up with the concept of the side-kick mechanism? The concept that effectively transmutes a level based game into a skill based one for the sidekick? He must understand what is being argued for here and why.
Its fine to say a LV40 deserves his due for working to level 40, but what of 2 level 40s who have their butts handed to them by another level 40 and his sidekicked level 10, are they going to feel cheated that someone who has not played nearly as long as they have is responsible for their demise?
What will make them feel the most hard done by, that they lost the battle or that they are now burdened with an ungodly amount of debt?
"This is wrong. Encounters with other players of lower level does not need to be a challenge, exactly as encounters with other mobs of low levels is not a challenge. It works fine in PvE, I don't understand why it would be necessary in PvP. "
I can experiance PvE content alone at any level, but I need people to experiance PvP with. It is a fact that the higher you go in levels the fewer people you are able to find to team with. If I, as a level X hero, can find no suitable villains to PvP with then I am hanging in the wind. As it is I find that getting used to being alone starts to happen around LV28-30. Whats my chance of meeting up with someone on the opposing side in a level range I can rumble with? There is no point being in a PvP game where the levels of power are so stretched that you have few if any opponant worthy of you.
Lord Recluse, is it possible to clarify your thinking on how important you think levels should be in CoV, because you have obviously stirred up a hornets nest. You say a solo LV10 taking on a LV40 should be suicide, and all things being equal I agree with you.
However at what point do you envisage sheer numbers outweighing level difference? To my mind I would like to see between 4 to 8 level 10s being able to take down a level 40.
I dont want to compare cross classes here, as the ability to take down an opponent (blaster, scrapper, tanker), is not the same as the ability to protect yourself from being taken down (defender, controller).
Roughly how many LV10 scrappers do you think should balance against a LV40 scrapper? 4
8
16... or 'aint gonna happen'
PvP could be implemented and pass in-house testing easily enough with either 4 Vs 1, 8 Vs 1, 16 vs 1, (or 5000 vs 1 if you had a big enough servers) but that doesnt tell us what your thinking is on how important you feel level differences should be.
Consider for a moment the kind of powers a level 50 controller would have. First of all they'd have several mez attacks both singular and AoE, secondly they'd have pets as well. Even if you level the playing field to an 'even con' system so that damage and accuracy is scaled then a level 50 controller is still going to have an advantage over a much lower level hero.
The fact is that the controller can chain hold someone thus you'd need to have several heroes to take the single level 50 controller down. But because of the way the system works it would be possible for a very skilled and somewhat lucky player to slip through and defeat the controller one on one.
People who think that they're losing what defines a hero by leveling the field are simply forgetting that its the powers which encourage you to level. I don't look forwards very much to my odd number levels because its just slots. But the even number ones are great cause I get a new ability. That alone shows the importance of powers to what defines a powerful hero.
So in PvP it doesn't matter if all damage and accurcy is the same, the powers will still make one hero more powerful than another but skill would come into play as HOW you use those powers means the difference between victory and defeat. The higher level heroes just have more options compared to a lower level one.
An even con system is not breaking with the devs wanting several lower level heroes needed to take on a higher level one, thats why its such a perfect system. Inherantly the more attack powers you have the higher your DPS anyway.
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Consider for a moment the kind of powers a level 50 controller would have. First of all they'd have several mez attacks both singular and AoE, secondly they'd have pets as well. Even if you level the playing field to an 'even con' system so that damage and accuracy is scaled then a level 50 controller is still going to have an advantage over a much lower level hero.
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Actually, the effect of fighting something that has your level, but tier 8&9 powers can quite easily be observed in the present game. Try taking on that one Outcast boss who summons Fire Imps. OUCH ! Or some Vahzilok eidolons that use Midnight Grasp. YIKES ! I am sure there are more examples, but these are the more prominent ones.
Saying that a level 40 char could not beat the crap out of a level 10 char if they had the same HPs and the same base damage is just a flat out lie. Higher-tier powers AND more slots AND the availability of SO enhancements already create a crushing advantage.
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I don't look forwards very much to my odd number levels because its just slots. But the even number ones are great cause I get a new ability. That alone shows the importance of powers to what defines a powerful hero.
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I agree with your whole post other than, you must not be a high lvl character cause once in your upper 30's and 40's you look forward to those slots. It no longer becomes a yay, i got a new power game...it's now a yay, i'm getting 6 slots next level and can really do some damage, or really debuff those SOB's or whatever the case may be...but in any case in high lvls it's the slots that matter to me. 
mY 2 cents
PVP HEROvsHERO
1. Consensual only
You could put a team together and challenge someone/team, or just go 1 on 1
2. We can see each others lvl and powers
3. Damage needs to be scaled. LVL 2 CHAR CANNOT LAY THE SMACKDOWN ON A LVL 40/50 CHAR. 10 LVL 2s CANNOT LAY SMACKDOWN. bUT, 5 LVL 20s/30s SHOULD HOLD THEIR OWN
AND W/ PROPER TEAMWORK, POSSIBLY BEAT THE LVL 40/50.
JUBILEE CANT DO [censored] TO MAGNETO, 10 JUBILEES WOULDNT DO [censored] TO MAGNETO. bUT ON OCCASION, THE X-MEN LAY THE SMACKDOWN aLBEIT W/ CASUALTIES.
PVP HEROvsVILLAN/ VILLANvsVILLAN
1.Should not need to be consensual
All ppl can join in, slugfest.
2. Char lvls and powers not common knowledge between heros and villans, just something to signify as HERO or VILLAN.
POWERS LIKE INVIS AND STEALTH ARE JUST THAT. A VILLAN SHOULD NOT SEE AN INVISED HERO GOING TO A MISH ESPECIALLY IF HE CAN ATTACK THEM AND VICE VERSA.
3.Damage needs to be scaled. A 40/50Lvl char can one shot a lvl 2 char but the lvl 2 should incur NO DEBT from such greifing. Repeated actions like these should have consequences such as suspended accts. or lockouts from areas past their lvls.
BUT AS CHARS ARE HIGHER LVL LIKE 20s AND 30s, damage should be curved so that they are not one-shotted, but if the lvl disparity is high like a lvl 50 char snipes a lvl 18 char, it should be substantial. But the lvl 18 toon should still be able to respond by taking a respite or going invis or stealth. The main thing is the lVL 50 DID NOT KNOW THAT THE CHAR WAS ONLY LVL 18. YOU TAKE CHANCES.
FOR EXAMPLE, Robin is scouting by himself in Gotham and he gets the silent alarm from a bank. He cant really make out who the robber is but he goes in for the attack and behold, it is Clayface. By most standards, Robin is outclassed so his alphastrike doesnt do much and he may end up in the hospital.
But, he may also have something prepared for Clayface, like a hold or mezz, or other Bat family members are nearby for backup.
Now, I hope this all makes sense. I think this would make for a better environment.
Honestly though, I would also want an area where everyone is even con and consent is not required would be cool too. A Large open area for massive, epic battles. Like a war zone or something.
WhiteSpectRre
Infinity Server 
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I agree with your whole post other than, you must not be a high lvl character cause once in your upper 30's and 40's you look forward to those slots
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Yeah my highest is level 33, I kinda lost interest because everything was far too easy and my character had no really good powers to look forwards to. I hate the fact that the 30-40 gap literally has no really fantastic content.
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I agree with your whole post other than, you must not be a high lvl character cause once in your upper 30's and 40's you look forward to those slots
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Yeah my highest is level 33, I kinda lost interest because everything was far too easy and my character had no really good powers to look forwards to. I hate the fact that the 30-40 gap literally has no really fantastic content.
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/agree
As you can see my alt is stuck at 32 and i've kinda lost some interest also.
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I agree with your whole post other than, you must not be a high lvl character cause once in your upper 30's and 40's you look forward to those slots
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Yeah my highest is level 33, I kinda lost interest because everything was far too easy and my character had no really good powers to look forwards to. I hate the fact that the 30-40 gap literally has no really fantastic content.
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that in its self depends on when you choose your powers such as the fisrt 24 you spent molding your char then when you cant improve that then content that would normaly make the game hard under other circumstances its now really easy.
"Never attempt to balance mechanics through Role Playing."
Castle
I'm at 32, and personally just itching for all the enhancement slots, but I'd have to agree that it feels awfully content-less at this point.
~Tyroie
Great thread. A few things I think should be considered here:
PvP and PvE are inherently different games, and players look for different things in them. PvE centers around personal development and advancing through stories and increasingly harder opponents, while PvP focusses primarilly on players facing each other head on in competition.
To that end, levelling is a great tool in PvE to direct players through their journies. But in PvP, players want to be able to fight each other and stand at least SOME chance of fighting back. Things like level limits can make it pretty frustrating finding opponents. Players with high level characters want to be able to fight opposing players and be challenged, while players with low level characters also want to be able to put up a fight against opposing players even if their characters are different levels.
That's why first person shooters, for instance, keep everyone within the same relative power level. Even in persistent games, no matter long your avatar has been around gathering power ups or experience, brand new characters will still put up a fight. Older characters might have slightly better equipment, but pretty much any two teams of opponents can fight each other and have at least some chance of beating each other.
So for PvP it seems you would want higher level characters to have an advantage, but not an insurmountable one. That would allow anybody to fight anybody else and eliminate artificial restrictions on what level characters can fight other each other and trying to split all the PvP zones into tight ranges of "security clearance".
Unfortunately, as it stands, that would not be the case if characters fight each other as if they were NPCs. Even a 5 level difference means the lower level character can not, for all practical purposes, even hit the opponent, let alone win.
At a minimum, then, if you want everyone to be able to be effective at some minimal level against everyone else, certain aspects ought to be equalized, presumably by a sidekick/exemplar type system:
- chance to hit. Even if you don't want everyone to fight each other as "whites", having base chance to hit be in the green to red range could work. Your base chance to hit a high level opponent would be low but feasible.
- Above statement applies to base damage multiplier.
- Note that high level opponents already have an innate advantage in having higher quality enhancements and more enhancement slots, and have more powers available. Even if all other aspects were equal, these alone are sizable advantages.
My advice would be, when internally testing different systems, make sure to also test level equalizing. If that turns out to work out well in terms of playability and fun, then it also would work out a lot better than more restrictive systems at maximizing the number of potential opponents PvP players have at any given moment.
P.S. I saw a lot of posts one way or another arguing about whether or not this system is "realistic" or "comic book like". Frankly that's all a red herring, I think. The bottom line is players will probably judge PvP in City of Heroes by how fun it is and how easy or hard it is to find opponents to fight. They're not likely to care much about if the system stacks up to real life or comic books - only if they are having fun blasting each other.
So whichever system they go with, it should be the one that plays the best and is the most fun. Pick that, THEN rationalize all you want as to why it does or doesn't resemble how comics really work.
I just have to /sign this idea! It's unique, it's innovative and it's just plain great for letting people of all levels battle it out with each other on relatively equal grounds...
As quite a few have already mentioned, the enhancements and extra powers will still give the higher level char a major upper hand and this we are not disregarding the fact that people aren't rewarded for having reached a certain level of power. This would be a wonderful way to decrease and discourage griefing and let people of all levels have fun together... ^^
Now, we just need some sort of reputation system for rewards, hmm... If there was only some sort of idea for this formulated and discussed in another thread... Hmm:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...art=1&vc=1
If only... 
Rise chicken, chicken rise!!!!
Kitty the Necromancer! You horrible creature, this poor thread is DEAD!
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
Even I know that some threads just don't deserve rezzing.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
;waits for Thread Necromancy to be add to the rules
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
if we want everyone of all levels to PvP together....
nerf invulnerability and regen so my ice blasts can actually kill zem!