Idea to allow players of all levels PVP together
By
abraxas,
Posted on: 2004-12-07 19:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It could happen, but I bet that level 40, with 20 inspiration slots has a break-hold inspiration just in case, unless he or she just got off a task force and was plum out. If that is the case, why would the player agree to a consentual PvP match? Only two scenarios I can think of: it was either a friendly match between players that knew eachother, or a brazen "I'll beat you with one paw tied behind my back" approach on the part of the level 40.
Also, as an aside to this scenario, what's to stop a fellow villian or hero from running by and helping that level 40 clear his mind?
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I love the OPs idea. I love the DEVs Idea. I just don't like the monster idea. I mean, hell, I can a level 2 doing a signifigant amount of damage to a level 50 ((not the same a level 50 mind you, but signifigant none the less)) but what I don't want is to see my 38 blaster doing 20 damage to a level 10, or maybe jsut a tincy bit more. That isn't that fair.
Now someone argued maybe obviously Lord Recluse doesnt know a thing about PvP in RPGs. It is a role-play-game. Now in real life, do you think some ten year old kid has a chance against a 21 year old 3rd degree black belt in over 7 different kind of martial arts? No, well thats how I see the pvp system.
I personally want PvP zones. My suggestion is make it so you can access a pvp zone via the train, but each is like a trial zone.
i.e
I go to the yellow line and see this
Atlas Park
Atlas Park PvP(1-6)
Kings Row
Kings Row PvP(5-10)
That how I want to see it happen.
If you can't gain XP here solo, then you can't PvP here, atlas park has mobs that are levels 1-6, so thus any level 1-6 toon cna PvP in atlas park Pvp
Kings Row has mobs 5-10 ((maybe 11 but KR after lvl 10 sucks)) so you have to be level 5 to go in, but you can't enter it if you are level 11+
((also specific zones for Epic Archetype Characters, cause using nova on a level 2 isnt cool))
Now I also love some of the above Ideas. If I want my level 38 to be on par with a level 2, then I will go to this zone via the train
Atlas Park PvP Nightmare (1+)
or maybe
Kings Row PvP nightmare(5+)
Basically those zones provide ample oppurtunites for high level characters and lower level characters to fight eachother and be on the same playing field, but once again, yo can't enter a zone if the mobs there will kill you easy
Just my two cents
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But I'd like to see PvP be fun with longstanding grudge matches and rumbles between myself and my playmates, regardless of how much PvE time we've put in to any particular character. You guys are providing tons of great PvE content, but the best PvP content is going to come in the form of a player controlled archnemesis complete with hammy RP. This relationship can't be maintained if my nemesis gets online three more times a week then I do for a couple weeks and gets two levels on me.
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Great post! Mine was clouded with anger, you spoke the Ideas I wanted to get across and did it with diplomacy.
5 stars for you 
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o.O
Whoa... 298 words...
*keels over in surprise*
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*follows suit*
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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level player has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that.
PvP needs to be fun and something that doesn't get abusive. However, that doesn't mean a 1 on 1 fight has to be fair. If I decide to pick fistfight with a grizzly bear, well, I expect to lose. You can even give me a knife and I'll still expect to lose. That's just common sense. A level 10 should know that picking a fight with a level 40 is suicide. It should be common sense. At the same time the system needs checks and balances so the level 40 isn't deliberately hunting level 10's just so he can gank them.
There ARE things that can be done -- both to reduce ganking (I'm not promising it will ever completely go away) and allow a broader level range in PvP combat. Lower levels should have a chance to attack and defend themselves, even if it is hard. As we implement them we're going to test them internally and the ideas that survive that test will then move on to various stages of beta testing.
So at this point I won't say just what our plans are (because I like to test things first), but I just figured I'd shake the web here.
Lord Recluse
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What if it was one way - Damage scaled DOWN, but not up?
Ok, we have our hypothetical level 10 vs level 40. Now, I don't care how many ways you cut it, the level 40 IS going to beat the living daylights out of the level 10. However, by doing it with a one-shot-yer-dead, its neither fun nor heroic.
What if damage scaled DOWN, but not up? So the level 10 hits the level 40, he does, lets say, 15 damage. The level 40 laughs and returns fire, doing - 15 damage. Now, you may think this is unfair for the level 40... not true... first, this would make ANY PVP battle at least something more than a one shot one kill. The level 40 still has a MAJOR upper hand here... his hit points are more than double, even triple, what the lowly level 10 has. Just a couple of hits from the level 40 and its over, while it would take the level 10 all day to kill the 40. The level 40 also has many more powers at his disposal than the two or three attacks the level 10 has.
Essentially, the level 40 would always attack lower levels with their power as if he was their same, equal level. The level 10 would attack higher levels as if he was still level 10.
Battles, even grossly one sided ones, would still be a BATTLE, and if needed, would still give lower levels time to scramble away from the griefers to saftey.
This change wouldn't even effect people fighting at similar levels, so nothing would be noticed there.
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What if it was one way - Damage scaled DOWN, but not up?
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This would be better than nothing but would not make PvP fun, this would still guarantee that the higher toon always won but would prolong the agony of the lower level toon, However if the lower level toon had a travel power at least this would give them a chance to run away if it was not a hold 
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this would still guarantee that the higher toon always won but would prolong the agony of the lower level toon, However if the lower level toon had a travel power at least this would give them a chance to run away if it was not a hold
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Thats EXACTLY what i'm trying to accomplish.
First off... its a level 40 vs level 10. Higher toon IS gonna win... unless the level 10 got a gang of his buddies, mapped out a strategy, then all jumped the 40 from behind. They might have a chance then.
If a level 40 jumps a level 10 to grief him, he could at least get away.
If a level 10 jumps a level 40... well... he better know what he's doing or he's gonna deserve whats coming to him.
See what i'm trying to get at?
Although I very much disagree with complete damage scaling, I do think that if scaling *must* happen, then damage should be scaled up.
Although it doesn't sound like you agree with the point made that it isn't fair to the level 40 who is fighting an even fight with a level 10, at least if damage is scaled up it doesn't feel to the level 40 that they are being penalized.
If PvP must mean that all players fight on an even playing field, at least in terms of damage done, then please bring lower levels up rather than higher levels down. This simply seems to make more sense for the player who worked to level their character.
Quintara, i don't see how it would make higher levels feel penalized. I, personally, would feel god like as i stood there taking tiny little hits against my enormous health. Sure, i'm hitting them back for a tiny amount back... but that amount is tiny only in comparison. To the low levels i'm hitting, thats a huge chunk.
If damage was scaled up, i doubt i'd find any fun in PVP at all. After all, it would be everyone just alpha striking each other for one shot kills. I'm sure all the level 40+ would be all over the boards whining about some level 12 who one shotted him with build up + snipe.
The battles should be epic and heroic, in my opinion, and not a brief flash of fancy color and a trip to the hospital.
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Thats EXACTLY what i'm trying to accomplish.
First off... its a level 40 vs level 10. Higher toon IS gonna win... unless the level 10 got a gang of his buddies, mapped out a strategy, then all jumped the 40 from behind. They might have a chance then.
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What will happen if your Idea is used is that most casual players and all low level players will opt out of PvP.
Because PvP is going to be consensual, and no one wants a fight that they can't win.
The power gamers and high level toons will then start complaining that there is no one left to PvP with and demand that the term consensual be changed, while the players who opt. out will demand a PvE only sever for them.
I have played many mmorpg with PvP and the players who prefer PvE always out number the PvP by at least 8 to 1.
If you want the majority of the user base to participate in PvP then your going to have to remove the enhernt advantage level makes, as distasteful as that might be to some.
Other wise the PvP groups are going to be really lonely really fast!
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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point?
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The level 40 player still has an enormous advantage over the level 10 simply by having more powers, slots and access to SO enhancement. Even if the damage was scaled, the lv40 would kick the lv10s posterior big time.
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Some offensive builds have all of their main attacks by level 4. (Dark Melee.) I think they should look at the sidekick system, when it comes to this. If you read the manual, it says that by levels of 10 there is a delination. Example, if a level 40 sidekicks a level 35, there's a one level difference, but if the same 40 side kicks a 30, then there's a two level difference. I don't think it's that way in game, but I think 10 level increments should be factored in when it comes to balancing the foundation of accuracy and damage. After this has been taken into account, slots should be considered.
In any event, I'm hoping damage as we know it has no validity to what PvP will be like, or else all of the matches would be over in two seconds.
How about this then:
The target is considered "even level" relative to your attacks.
So, a level 10 attacking a level 40 would have the same chance to hit as if he was hitting a level 10, and do the damage he would normally do against a level 10 (which the 40th would laugh at, but get enough 10ths attacking him and it should eventually worry him)
Conversely the 40th attacking a 10th will still wipe the floor with him, damage wise, but if that 10th level had defence buffs (SR scrapper with bubbles - for example) then the chance to hit him would get "floored" rather than getting jacked because of level.
If I was a 10th against a 40th, 1 on 1, I expect to get pasted, but if enough of us gang up on him, I want at least a *chance* that we can pull him down, granted some of us are going to be worm food, but I expect that.
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Some offensive builds have all of their main attacks by level 4. (Dark Melee.) I think they should look at the sidekick system, when it comes to this. If you read the manual, it says that by levels of 10 there is a delination.
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This may be true but at ten level none of their attack powers are fully slotted and they have zero defenses... and no travel power while the 40th level toon has 5 attacks fully slotted, many defenses up and a working travel power. The level forty still has all the advantages.
Beside PvP is supposed to be consensual and everyone is saying that what they want is a challenge. This will mean that everyone can have a challenge no matter what level they are. What could possibly be better than that?
We should not be looking at PvP to be a new way to Power level or get some new accolade, but as a way to get some user base content into the game. And yes, to provide a challenge, but you provide a challenge by having a level playing field. I still think the new monster code will be the holy grail of MMORPG and PvP.
Whats better is that cryptic could be the first to do it and I know it will work, trust me
hit points at level 40 are a lot more than double or triple I think. My level 32 blaster has 745 hp I think. My friend level 31 tanker has 1800! If the scaling is one way, the higher level will heal faster than a lower level can do damage anyway.
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This would be about the worst pvp in the history of gaming, if we followed your suggestions.
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Worst then game like what, Unreal tournament? or worst than ghost recon, or all the other first person shooters that start everyone at the same level.
What doesn't work is PvP in an RPG because an RPG is all about gaining levels and those level make skill or design obsolete in a RPG PvP system.
Case and point before issue two release martial arts/reflex scrappers were supposed to be gimp and Spines/reg scrappers were supposed to be ubor. now if we put a ten year old with 2 days of game play on a poorly built 40th level martial/reflex scrapper and let him fight perfectly built 10th level spines/reg scrapper control by a 20 year old who has been playing scrappers since beta who would win?
Is that fair?
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Is that fair?
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At the end of the day, the question I hope Lord Recluse, Statesman, and all the other devs ask of what ever PvP design they implement:
"Is that fun?" (and follow that up with, "for how long?")
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Is that fair?
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At the end of the day, the question I hope Lord Recluse, Statesman, and all the other devs ask of what ever PvP design they implement:
"Is that fun?" (and follow that up with, "for how long?")
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Ok, I accept that...But I need a sence of fair play to have fun and I don't think I'm alone in that...
If there are np FFA areas, then there is no need for level-evening code, IMHO. If there are FFA areas, I like this solution, from DamnedOne.
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I go to the yellow line and see this
Atlas Park
Atlas Park PvP(1-6)
Kings Row
Kings Row PvP(5-10)
That how I want to see it happen.
If you can't gain XP here solo, then you can't PvP here, atlas park has mobs that are levels 1-6, so thus any level 1-6 toon cna PvP in atlas park Pvp
Kings Row has mobs 5-10 ((maybe 11 but KR after lvl 10 sucks)) so you have to be level 5 to go in, but you can't enter it if you are level 11+
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If there is a playfield-evening code, I'd like it to be for Arena matches only or for a chosen Player Nemesis.
Most PvP in CoV (according to the website) will be based around base raids or PvP missions, which will all presumably be level restricted anyway.
The only time you might need level-evening code is in FFA areas (which may not exist), if a PvP toggle is used (I hope not) or in Arena matches (and even then it should be optional).
So rather than artificially boosting or limiting my effectiveness (doing it as part of a story is fine), just limit the levels I can challenge or encounter. However, I do like the idea of being able to designate an arch-foe, who then stays near me in effectiveness no matter what.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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How about this then:
The target is considered "even level" relative to your attacks.
So, a level 10 attacking a level 40 would have the same chance to hit as if he was hitting a level 10, and do the damage he would normally do against a level 10 (which the 40th would laugh at, but get enough 10ths attacking him and it should eventually worry him)
Conversely the 40th attacking a 10th will still wipe the floor with him, damage wise, but if that 10th level had defence buffs (SR scrapper with bubbles - for example) then the chance to hit him would get "floored" rather than getting jacked because of level.
If I was a 10th against a 40th, 1 on 1, I expect to get pasted, but if enough of us gang up on him, I want at least a *chance* that we can pull him down, granted some of us are going to be worm food, but I expect that.
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This is exactly what I was trying to say. Alternatively, NullOp, your solution is attractive as well -- If my 33rd level damage was scaled down to hit a level 14 blaster who was trying to take me out, I'd be ok with that, since it would still be a notable percentage of his hp.
And please, everyone remain calm. We'll all make it out of this ok, I promise. 
you guys are so narrow minded. PvP is not 1v1. i dont know why people insist on 1v1 pvp because it IS boring no matter how you slice it.
These mmo's emphasise teamwork and what do people want to do? fight 1 on 1? stupid. Yes i thought scaling down the damage is a very good idea.
1 lvl 40 hunts level 10s, but what happens when you're messing around with 8 or 9 lvl -4 Tsoo? you get cocky and mess around on the phone or whatever and you get held or put to sleep and all of a sudden you're waking up in the hospital. same thing with hunting people, except they'll add you to their friends list and get their buddies to jump you every chance they get. and guess what? Mr. level 40 doesnt go around hunting level 10s anymore.
the thing that i want to know is how they are going to impliment a penalty for killing other players. Lineage had a pretty good system where if you hit someone you turned purple making you fair game to kill without penalty and killing another player you turn red making it so if you did die, you have a very high chance of dropping up to 5 items including your weapon.
but what can you do in this game that will make players think twice about running around killing other players? you cant drop items, i mean yes you can drop enhancements and such but who cares everyone is rich in coh.
The thing that deterred alot of people from pk'ing in lineage was to not allow anyone to actually see other people's level. Sometimes i would want to kill someone for being a jackass, but then i'd think twice and be like, hmm what level his he and does he have friends nearby? Thats what suprised me so much about coh is that everyone can see eachother's levels and know what the other guy has. attack powers and everything. This game is basically a poker game and once someone knows your cards, all they have to do is have a better hand.
I dont know really. All i know is i left Lineage 2 with 8 months left on my account for 2 reasons:
1.) the game was very basic with crappy stupid lengthy quests and very few different looking attacks and people (which coh has really really got me hooked for)
2.) I could NEVER kill anyone higher level than me. Not even one level. All i did was support my higher level people all the time and that is WAY boring. I was a shaman and by supporting i mean strictly healing only. I had other attacks and holds, but none of them would hit because i was lower level. If there is no scaling then only the higher ups will rule. Then it just turns into a "who doesnt have a life" contest. then i go back to dod where skill reigns over time wasting.
Scale it down! it takes me like 10-20 minutes to find a team of players my own level what more if i look for people to pvp in a consentual setting? gahh it would be like trying to start a team. Instead of using /invite it would be
/pvp dudeguy
dudeguy has refused your request
/pvp otherguy
otherguy has refused your request
/pvp thirdguy
thirdguy has refused your request
if i see that i'll say, well time to start playing Half-Life 2 again!
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If there is a playfield-evening code, I'd like it to be for Arena matches only or for a chosen Player Nemesis.
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I have an Idea then, how about when arena's go live at update 4 they make half the arena's playfield-even code IE "new monster code" and the other half of the arena's standard and see which arena's get more business and for how long.
Just a thought...
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you guys are so narrow minded. PvP is not 1v1. i dont know why people insist on 1v1 pvp because it IS boring no matter how you slice it.
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Whats great about the "monster code" idea is that it scales well for teams.
Think about a team of 8 heros level 8,41,25,15,17,22,31,12 against a team of villians level 9,40,16,24,18,50,7,13 guess what useing the "monster code" its a fair fight, and fun to the max...
Try and pull that off some other way
Its even comic bookie, just like when the bother hood of evil would attack the x-man they all had different power levels but it all worked at pretty even in the comics. I think Marvel uses the "new monster code" for all their PvP fights
If we're talking about simply heores vs. villains, why even allow them to see eachother's level? Keeping that kind of information hidden might cut down on a lot of ganking as people tend to get a bit more hesitant about starting a fight when they're suddenly not so sure they can win. Yeah, capes and auras might be a dead give away for some, but they are not absolute. I know I have a post thirty character that still wears his non-cape, non-aura costume.
Now, hero vs. hero pvp may be another issue, as we can already see not just eachother's level, but even their builds if we check out their info page. But then again, heroes aren't supposed to be fighting eachother anyway. So, if we keep PvP to hero vs. Villain aoutside of arenas, then I see no reason why we should have any inidcation of the others level until we are already engaged....
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If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point?
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Exactly 
@artphobia
To the best dev team ever: I enjoyed meeting you all at the Summits and best of luck in all your future endeavors.
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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level player has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that.
Lord Recluse
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I respectfully disagree with this based on:
1) The higher level character will have more and better powers as well as superior enhancements. If that doesn't give them enough of an advantage ... well ...
2) If the higher level characters need additional rewards for all they've accomplished - to the point that you have to exclude lower level characters from PVP combat with them - then you've not rewarded their gameplay enough to begin with.
3) Excluding lower level characters reduces the pool of available opponents.
I can see your points but I think it only serves to preserve the elitist attitudes of some who believe that being level X+10 makes you better than a person who is only level X.
Why not ask the playerbase if they would mind playing against lower level players in an environment where their respective base powers/hitpoints are scaled even?
50 Fire/Dev | 50 AR/Dev | 50 Ninjas/FF MM | 50 Bots/Dark | 50 Kin/Rad |
44 EM/Regen | 39 BS/Regen | 38 Kin/Elec | 27 Thugs/Pain
"Rare is the man so noble that he will always give thanks for that which is freely given." -Jock_Tamson
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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level player has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that. ...
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Actually, even if you scale the base damage up, the level 40 still has a couple of nice advantages over the level 10:
- The level 40 hero has more enhancements and better types of enhancements. His main powers could easily all be enhanced to 200-300% of their base ability, while the level 10 character would only be enhanced to maybe +50%. That's a pretty big difference, even if the base damage is the same.
- The level 40 hero has many more powers to choose from in a fight over the level 10. Greater flexibility and more options gives the level 40 a nice advantage. Especially in the case of a low level guy without travel powers, for example, or stamina, pets, etc.
Those are the two major advantages I can think of the level 40 guy has even if base damage and hit points are scaled to be equal. So it seems to me you COULD scale the PvP base stats without the higher level player losing other advantages he's earned. The level 10 guy would still have an uphill battle on his hands, although not an impossible one (as would be the case of a level 10 NPC versus a level 40 hero).
Just something to consider.