"Forced" Group Missions
By
Alistaire_Caine,
Posted on: 2004-09-10 09:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I hate hunt X missions with an undying passion, and will certainly be disappointed if my choices are "hunt mission" or "group mission." They're even worse when it's "hunt X in a particular zone." I've stopped story-arcs in the middle (or never started them) because they turned from interesting door missions into a game of hide-and-go-seek.
That said, it won't be THAT much different than my choices now sometimes... "hunt x" or "hunt y", or sometimes even hunting as the only option. But I'm not looking forward to being in a position where I have to choose hunt missions more often than I do now. As such, I suggest:
1. What several others already suggested: allow contacts to offer 3 missions instead of 2: the third always being a group mission. If there's no more group missions available, only the standard 2 missions are offered.
2. This, I think, is new: Don't count hunt missions towards the "only 3 missions allowed at a time" limit. Losing focus doesn't come into play in hunt missions, 'cause there's nothing to focus on - even with temp powers and/or in the middle of a storyarc, hunt missions are just glorified hide-and-go-seek games that people (in my experience) grab for a few reasons:
a. It's the only option available.
b. They've got a group with a door mission that has those villains, and it's not a "hunt in X zone" mission.
c. They were going to go street-hunting anyway, and might as well get the bonus XP.
Note that "story content" is not one of those reasons. Door missions convey story content. Hunt missions fill in the story-time between door missions. Thus there's no worry about losing focus.
(Btw, the CoT hunt in Perez is pretty easy to skip, but also pretty easy to actually complete. The Cot hunt in KR, that's much harder to both skip AND complete. There's seriously not enough CoT spawn points in KR, and most of the ones that do exist? By the time I climb to the top of a building with green smoke, they've either de-spawned, or someone else has killed them.)
The game ends at 50.
SmilegasmDo not ever give Mind Control a pet.
We need more control sets without pets.My characters are not "toons".
They are all project characters, though.Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue
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We have gone back and removed the multi-tasking missions from Story Arcs and multi-stage missions.
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Positron, I for one just want to say that I am saddened by your decision to cave to a very vocal, but very small, minority of players who wish to play this game and do every mission solo. Statesman has said ad naseum that this board represents less than .5% of the active player base. And of those posting against the "forced group" missions what are we talking about, .01% of the active player base? Yet, due to their whining you're going to remove the forced grouping missions from Story Arcs? For shame good sir, for shame.
Gaffer posted a very eloquent message not long ago explaining how from a design standpoint it's up to the developers to guide and direct the players experience. In his words, if you gave players xp for hitting the spacebar all day that's what they would do. And so here you are removing a valuable addition to the game design which would have encouraged grouping. Which would have forced people to go out and interact with...shudder...other people. I find this very dissapointing and the fact that you have made this decision based on the minority whining of a vocal group of hardcore soloers on these boards saddens me. Of all the moves you've made so far and the faith I put in you guys this one shakes my beliefs a bit. I had always felt that you put the interest of the game and it's long term viability before all else. Until now.
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Positron, I for one just want to say that I am saddened by your decision to cave to a very vocal, but very small, minority of players who wish to play this game and do every mission solo.
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Wanting to play every mission solo isn't the problem. The problem is that when forced grouping missions are in a story arc. When that happens, then missions that *can* be done solo are locked off until you've done a mission that *can't* be done solo.
Most of the people who are happy about this change do group sometimes. Nothing is being taken away from their experience by this. It's just that this change keeps a lot of content open that was closed when the group only missions were in story arcs.
And if you had bothered to notice it was a coding error. The group missions were not meant to in the story arcs or old content but in the new content.
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And if you had bothered to notice it was a coding error. The group missions were not meant to in the story arcs or old content but in the new content.
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No it was not a coding error it was a concept error. Look at what Statesman said in this line.
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we just wanted to spice things up for you in the middle of your Arc.
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This proves it was not a coding error it was a diliberate addition, to the story arc. They didn't think of the consiquence this would have of gating the content.
Kid Flash you're so funny.
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Statesman has said ad naseum that this board represents less than .5% of the active player base. And of those posting against the "forced group" missions what are we talking about, .01% of the active player base?
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Why is it that people always assume the 99.5% of the player population that does not post on these boards is going to agree with them?
Cryptic does use the boards entirely to judge player desires. They do a lot of datamining to determine how people play.
No one is asking to make it impossible to group. Why anyone would ask to make it impossible to solo is beyond me.
If I am at a restaurant and I want the lasagna and you want the chicken, what's the big deal? Why do you complain about me wanting the lasagna? Your chicken is still being served, as a matter of fact its at the table long before my lasagna.
Ok gotta go, suddenly have a pasta craving and heartburn...
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Cryptic does use the boards entirely to judge player desires. They do a lot of datamining to determine how people play.
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In most cases you are correct. For things like SG or balance issues they datamine to determine whether the code is working properly. However, in this case Positron is entirely reacting to the message board threads where people complained about forced grouping. There is no data they can mine to determing whether people don't like being forced to group. That's a subjective category. My point is that the people complaining about forced group missions on these boards make up such a tiny, tiny fraction of the player base that I'm saddened they would make game design decisions solely based on those complaints.
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No one is asking to make it impossible to group. Why anyone would ask to make it impossible to solo is beyond me.
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That is an absolute misstatement of the issue in an attempt to gain sympathy for your position. No one is asking to make it impossible to solo. In fact, this game makes it easier to solo than probably any other mmorpg out there. What we're asking for are more missions which emphasize team-work, tactics, group play, and strategy. And less cookie-cutter, kill everything, solo-fest rinse and repeat missions.
So to repeat, no one is saying you shouldn't be able to solo. I'm saying don't remove things from the game which require grouping just so that every solo player can solo every single mission and story arc. IMHO that's the wrong direction for a game like this to take. Anything which reduces the incentive to group and makes that less appealing is going to have a detrimental long-term effect. There should be plenty of missions which require and encourage grouping as the only effective solution to complete them.
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In most cases you are correct. For things like SG or balance issues they datamine to determine whether the code is working properly. However, in this case Positron is entirely reacting to the message board threads where people complained about forced grouping. There is no data they can mine to determing whether people don't like being forced to group. That's a subjective category. My point is that the people complaining about forced group missions on these boards make up such a tiny, tiny fraction of the player base that I'm saddened they would make game design decisions solely based on those complaints.
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That's a double edged sword you're playing with there. You can't datamine the people who hate forced grouping, but you sure as hell can't datamine the people who want to force grouping on everybody else no matter what those people want either.
Apparently the developers thought that the 'tiny, tiny' number of people who complained were more worth listening to than "Ha ha! Now get a group!" you. Does that make you angry?
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No one is asking to make it impossible to solo.
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And then you turn around and say how you wish there were more missions that forced people to group. The contradiction is delicious.
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In fact, this game makes it easier to solo than probably any other mmorpg out there.
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And I think people would like to see that maintained, instead of slowly stomped out.
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What we're
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You.
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asking for are more missions which emphasize team-work, tactics, group play, and strategy. And less cookie-cutter, kill everything, solo-fest rinse and repeat missions.
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They're doing that already. Except people will be able to CHOOSE whether they want to do one or the other. Sorry.
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So to repeat, no one is saying you shouldn't be able to solo. I'm saying don't remove things from the game which require grouping just so that every solo player can solo every single mission and story arc.
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Archvillains still appear in some storyarcs and if a solo player doesn't choose to do a synchronized mission, they won't be doing every mission.
They'll just be able to choose whether they want to do it or not. Pesky choices.
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IMHO
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Opinion emphasized.
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that's the wrong direction for a game like this to take.
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Because every MMO must be just like Everquest, Asheron's Call and DAoC or it will fail.
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Anything which reduces the incentive to group and makes that less appealing is going to have a detrimental long-term effect.
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I wish I had your crystal ball. I'd be one rich guy by now.
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There should be plenty of missions which require and encourage grouping as the only effective solution to complete them.
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There will be......I'll just be able to avoid them. 
Kid Flash you're still so funny.
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Kid Flash you're still so funny.
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And I thought *I* liked kicking that horse carcas.
The change/fix/nerf/backpeddle what ever Kid wants to call it in no way changes the game for him, he just doesn't want to admit it.
He also failes to recognize that most who asked for the change back to the old story line missions, also were suggesting ways to add content to them that would *encourage* grouping without forcing it. *shrug* What are ya going to do?
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We have read and realize the concerns many of you are having with some of the new missions in Expansion 2. In our effort to diversify the play-style of the game, we began crafting multi-tasking missions, missions that require multiple players to do things near-simultaneously in order to complete the mission.
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Wow. I think those sound really FUN. Reminds me of the Asheron's Call 1 crazy missions. I won't be passing any of those missions up!
Thank you. To me, this is a welcome change.
There is a fairly large quantity of group-centric content, already. From Hazard zones to Task Forces to the Respec missions to Archvillain fights, a good deal of the content is already accessible/explorable only (or at least primarily) thru a group. The addition of individual missions requiring a group to complete, while I'm still not exceptionally overwhelmed by the particulars of the current implementation of the concept, is another good step to creating more opportunities for group play.
On the solo side of the equation, there is some street hunting and the missions, and now (to some extent), badge collection. All of which are heavily story-related elements far more easily and fully appreciated when you don't have 1 or more team members typing at you to G-A-F-M-O. (translation: Get-A-%$^%$-Move-On, or more politely, "hurry up, you're reducing my XP accrual rate").
In short, the solution presented/provided is a good solution that addresses almost all concerns, regardless of what side of the issue you might choose to champion. To me, that qualifies it as a pretty good solution.
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No one is asking to make it impossible to group. Why anyone would ask to make it impossible to solo is beyond me.
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That is an absolute misstatement of the issue in an attempt to gain sympathy for your position.
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I disagree. I don't think I stated it incorrectly. You want to make it so that I absolutely must group to move forward with my missions. I want to be able to choose not to do a mission that requires a group without taking away your choice to choose a mission that does require a group.
I would love to see more missions that require group interaction. This is something I would choose regularly. But the point is that I would choose that type of play rather than having it forced on me.
Also these missions need to go beyond the simple 'click two switches at the same time' premise if they want to encourage grouping. I can get around this easily by clearing the mission all by myself and having some friends join the team just long enough to flip the switches, or having my son log into his account to do so.
can I say this?
Why should I not be allowed to enjoy these group missions because some people don't have any friends?
All I do are story arch missions... you should keep them the way they are. People don't have to complete the story archs just like they don't have to complete the trials or task forces. But if they want the full game experience they should.
And where did statesmen say that? Link to the post. Often you leave valuable parts out that change the meaning.
can I say this?
Why should I not be allowed to enjoy these soloable missions because some people don't have any need for "alone" time?
All I do are story arch missions... you should keep them the way they are.
((I would add a reversal of the rest of the post, but as there is group-only but not solo-only content, I can't.))
As for "the full game experience" - solo characters already can't have that (Task Forces, Trials, new contact-driven group-only missions), & generally speaking we are fine with it. You can certainly choose to do story arcs & regular missions in a group rather than solo, while the reverse is not possible for the soloer. (Nor are we generally asking that it be so.)
This change takes away nothing from people who like to group with all their characters - all your previous content, including story arcs, can be accessed with a group, and you get new group-only content. It also takes away nothing from people who like to solo with one, some or all of their characters - all our previous content, including story arcs, can be accessed solo.
I really didn't are either way though spicing up the arcs would be cool. why not have two choices for the same arc? have one be multi person and one be solo-able. I like the idea of multi-task missions. I mean it is a Massively MULTIPLAYER Online RPG. If you bought this expecting to never have to socialize or not wanting to socialize with another human being then go get Freedom Force an stop whinning.
If you are talking about this line.
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we just wanted to spice things up for you in the middle of your Arc.
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Try looking at the first post in this thread.
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can I say this?
Why should I not be allowed to enjoy these group missions because some people don't have any friends?
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Good job. I'm sure with lines like that you'll convert plently of people over to your side. Nothing like being told you don't have any friends that makes you take the side of the person who said it.
You can still do the synchronized bomb missions. They'll just be on single missions now. People will now be able to choose to avoid them.
Apparently they don't mean that much to you if you can't pull yourself away from a story arc once in a while to do them.
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I mean it is a Massively MULTIPLAYER Online RPG. If you bought this expecting to never have to socialize or not wanting to socialize with another human being then go get Freedom Force an stop whinning.
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It is not fair for you to tell people to leave.
Task Forces, Trials, Hazard Zones and Hammy will still be group only.
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I mean it is a Massively MULTIPLAYER Online RPG. If you bought this expecting to never have to socialize or not wanting to socialize with another human being then go get Freedom Force an stop whinning.
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Well, actually you're missing the Massive part of the multiplayer. Perhaps they should make story arc content that could only be completed by 75 people at once. Or maybe 250. Hmm what is massive again?
I do expect to be able to group. When I chose to. I don't expect to be forced to. No one is forcing you to solo. Providing the option for me to solo does not stop you from grouping.
I checked the stats on my main the other day. About 350 hours played on that character. Realistically less than 50 solo. And he's a blaster. My other characters likely have much less solo time. Even when I am solo I am doing plenty of socializing. If 85% or greater of my time grouping isn't good enough for you, then not sure I can help you.
Also, I just have to point this out. Some of you really need to open your minds and drop the whole 'anti-social' argument altogether. Grouping does not equal socializing. I can't tell you how many pick up groups I have been on in EQ where hardly a word was spoken.
Also There are many reasons why people want or need to solo. I have a couple of friends who group rarely because of frequent disconnects, they don't want to be a burden on a team that might be counting on them. One of these friends is among the most social people I know, constantly chatting and often RPing.
Other freinds are like me and they have kids, and finding a pick up group that understands when you need to go afk at a moment's notice isn't all that easy.
Why alienate the person who prefers to play solo? The broader the market the better chance you and I both have of still having the opportunity to play this game five years from now. If they can make the game more enjoyable for me, while not making it any less enjoyable for you, what are you complaining about?
Not to derail the discussion from the original topic, but there is a somewhat related concern I thought I should mention.
I believe that at least some of the insistence about the inclusion of group-only play derives from the inclusion of what have been defined in the game as "support" classes: i.e. Controllers, Defenders, and to a large extent, Tankers. These are roles that, at present, can (emphasis on "can": certain builds somewhat avoid this issue) find it rather difficult to progress without a group: since we (I include myself because I like playing Defender-style roles) are effectively blocked from play by any inability to find a group, it can become a touchy subject.
The main problem here is that these classes are effectively plumbers in a server farm. Yeah, you kinda need us to make sure the sprinkler system is ready and keep the bathrooms operational, but the electricians and network boys see the real action.
One thing that I would like to see addressed at some point is the inclusion of mission types designed to highlight the strengths of these "support" classes. Where are the "rescue civilians from a burning building" (Defender) missions, the "detain without damaging" (Controller) missions, the "destroy the runaway reactor core, up close and personal" (Tanker) situations? When there are missions that put every AT in the spotlight on occasion, not just the damage dealers, I believe some of the building acrimony re: solo v. group might go away.
Just wanted to try to provide a perspective that might not have been fully considered...
*edited to add some grey area when defining the present soloability of "support classes", since there are obvious exceptions.
Nice, very nice idea on how to make some heroic missions. Very good indeed. Might take a while to get that right but it is something that would be so different from "standard" MMORPGs.
Night Goblin 35 lvl BS/Regen Scrapper
Slag Heap 38 lvl Fire/Axe Tanker
Energy Anomoly 23 lvl Energy/Energy Blaster
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One thing that I would like to see addressed at some point is the inclusion of mission types designed to highlight the strengths of these "support" classes. Where are the "rescue civilians from a burning building" (Defender) missions, the "detain without damaging" (Controller) missions, the "destroy the runaway reactor core, up close and personal" (Tanker) situations? When there are missions that put every AT in the spotlight on occasion, not just the damage dealers, I believe some of the building acrimony re: solo v. group might go away.
Just wanted to try to provide a perspective that might not have been fully considered...
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Excellent thoughts.
Ideally, every hero should be able to feel like a hero (not just a 'support class').
Blurg
(Science Tanker)
[i]"City of Heroes is at its best as a Superhero game that's implemented as an MMO, rather than as an MMO that just happens to be about Superheroes..."[/i]
First off let me add to the chorus of praise for not making soloing completely impossible.
I would like to see a couple of items to make soloing a little more friendly. For reference I probably group 80% of the time, however I typically prefer to solo my story arc missions because I like to enjoy them at a pace often to leisurely for most groups.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I feel it should be possible to solo /my/ missions. If I can't solo effectively or efficiently while hunting, that is fine. It is also fine to have optional multiplayer missions as stated by Positron above. However, the missions that my contact assign to me should be possible to complete solo. Even if I have to come back a level or two later to do it. (In the case of a story arc mission with an AV, for example).
The problem with this is that you don't often have room to leave missions until later. I read somewhere that playtesting indicated that heroes tended to lose focus with more than three missions. For the new player, this may indeed be true. However, as you get more familiar with the game this becomes less of an issue.
My suggestion would be to add 1 mission slot every 10 levels. For example at levels 11-20 you would have 4 slots, 21-30 5 slots, etc. This would make the 'wait and do it later' strategy a real possiility.
Also there are a couple of spots that you can outlevel all of the missions you have, at least in the early levels. Perhaps this will be different now that mission XP has been increased. Still it is something that needs to be looked into.
I also feel you should be able to forfeit a mission. There should be an influence penalty for doing so, perhaps. I can understand something may need to be done to keep everyone from skipping that CoT hunt mission in Perez at level 7
Anyway thanks for trying to keep the solo play in mind.