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I'll have to agree that if they dial down the damage, they better dial down the agro.
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I keep seing how people bring up the subject of agro as the reason why area effects must insta kill or not exist at all.
I am a fire tanker, and in my groups NO ONE gets agro unless I die.
For now, i depend greately on provoke to achieve this, but remember that every tanker hit has taunt asociated with it. This is not EverQuest or Final Fantasy XI where only healing or damage angers an enemy, here provoke and taunt do, and all tanker attacks have taunt now and will be provokes soon.
As a fire tanker i do have an edge over other tankers as i have quiet a few area attacks to draw agro between provoke refreshes, soon that will change, i hope.
You will NEVER get the agro in a group with a tanker, and while solo you should NEVER get involved with enough enemies to be that dangerous.
Talk about agro is nonsence. Not even the most trigger happy of scrappers (maybe one with invinsibility, and then for only a few secs) can take agro from me.
You mean fix it so we don't aggro so damned much and die all of the time? (The only time a tanker has drawn more aggro than me is one who constantly taunted a single object and I only used single target blasts) If that's what you mean, then I say fix it! Or do you mean give us defense so that that we can protect ourselves with something other than offense? If that's what you mean, then I say fix it! 
However, I think you're saying that 1. my damage is going to be lowered and 2. I must perma-group with provoke tankers... Thanks Cryptic! You're making this game very enjoyable!
I wonder if you grouped with a tanker that had no provoke, only taunt, and then maybe not even that.
You know I kind of need to agree that AoE nerfs are not needed. Especially for AR/Dev. Remember that full auto takes like 6 seconds to complete, during these six seconds you are getting shot and if everything isn't dead by the end, you will be dead. Unless were talking greys. If they are dead set on nerfing AoE damage then they should at least decrease the aggro so we don't get out [censored] beaten for using one of our powers in a group with a tank.
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Yes, AOE damage is an issue. We're still looking at ways to solve this. So no changes are imminent.
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Well if my AoE cannot kill it in one volley I'm not using it. So you might as well take AoE out of the game entirely. A blaster using AoE that will not kill in 1 volley is just asking for debt. The lowest hit point AT drawing the aggro of every single mob, yeah sounds like a great idea.
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Thank you for proving the point.
You have no clue how to play your AT or how the AT is supposed to fit in the game.
If you over nuke, you die! Period... 1 on 1, a blaster will outblast a single foe, thats how it should be... AoE blasters should be just as group oriented as a controller or defender. You regelate yourself to a damage support AT that needs massive tank or controller help to not die...
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Cryptic didn't advertise CoH as a group only game. Why again do I have to relegate myself to being a group only blaster? I rather think I know exactly how to play my AT, I never die solo. Only while in groups, perhaps it is other players who don't know how or don't have the toolsets to draw aggro off a blaster? Rather than nerf blasters or buffing mobs even more let's look at ways to give other ATs more aggro drawing abilities.
The issue isn't that they do too much damage, its that the alpha strike aoe elemenates the fight all together. no need for crowd controll, no fight realy, just BAM XP!
even if minion HP doubled (not saying it should just giving you a worse case scenerio) then blasters would be even MORE important to get through all that HP (plus the xp would go up, as statesman already said they're happy with present xp progression).
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Yes, AOE damage is an issue. We're still looking at ways to solve this. So no changes are imminent.
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I know you are not just "a" dev, but "the" dev, but...
are you smoking crack or something?
I run a level 31 blaster (fire/eng) respecced, maxxed out as best he can be, and my levelling speed is NIL.
How about FIXING that, and getting our speed back up?
-LM
For Great Justice!
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You know I kind of need to agree that AoE nerfs are not needed. Especially for AR/Dev. Remember that full auto takes like 6 seconds to complete, during these six seconds you are getting shot and if everything isn't dead by the end, you will be dead. Unless were talking greys. If they are dead set on nerfing AoE damage then they should at least decrease the aggro so we don't get out [censored] beaten for using one of our powers in a group with a tank.
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eh... i agree to some extent but even that FA is not as damagable as an inferno/nova.... that said it doesnt drain your end and the cycle time is very short however doing FA NOW on even con to +1-+2 groups doesnt even halve their life(with the exception of even mini's) even more so now that all there HP's have been raised.
just going off the new patch to my knowledge there is a big difference in nuking groups with AoE as is. again i am talkign end game here as well so if somethign changes early to mid maybe soemone has a point. but regaurdless right now IF a blaster opens up AoE they have to
A: time it right so it does in fact kill a group and by that i mean groupoed with a provoke tanker or someone who draws aggro. or
B: open it up and run before u die really really fast.
i can actualy see somewhat where a point can be taken before patch and with non /DEV blasters SG helped every /DEV. but with the fix and the increased HP for mobs... i just see that as a little too overboard for the sheer fact that u cant AoE and live as is unless grouped.
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That means build up is only adding 25-30% more damage and Aim is only 15-20% extra.
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Know thy numbers.
Unless the powers have recently been changed since I last heard:
Aim: 50% damage 100% accuracy
Build-Up: 100% damage 50% accuracy
That would roughly be 21-36% and 43-72% effective damage boosts to a 6-slotted all damage SO attack depending on the levels of the SOs relative to your character.
So yes, Build-up and Aim still help considerably with damage. Even on a 6 damage SO+3 attack combining them both is adding over 64% damage to the attack. (150/233)
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Wow. I am not sure where to start with a response here but I do know my (thy?) numbers. I was giving rough numbers and assuming green SOs but since you posted actually wrong numbers I have to respond so others will not be confused.
Aim: 62.5% damage boost
Build Up: 100% damage boost
The accuracy increase on both powers is unknown but assumed to be 50% for BU and 100% for AIM.
6 green SOs = 328% damage
Assume 100 damage for a power.
With 6 green SOs you get 328 damage.
Add Build Up only and you get 100 more damage.
Add Aim only and you get 62.5 more damage.
62.5 is only 19% of 328.
100 is roughly 30% of 328.
Since no self respecting player over 30 would use anything less than greens I figured these were reasonable numbers. My estimates were off the top of my head and I think they were pretty good considering that.
Anyways, you were looking at the percentage relative to the increase and I was looking at the percentage relative to the actual damage. That may be where some of the confusion lies.
-AZ
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The issue isn't that they do too much damage, its that the alpha strike aoe elemenates the fight all together. no need for crowd controll, no fight realy, just BAM XP!
even if minion HP doubled (not saying it should just giving you a worse case scenerio) then blasters would be even MORE important to get through all that HP (plus the xp would go up, as statesman already said they're happy with present xp progression).
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um not sure what u mean but if u do an AoE now the guy dong it will die and he wont wipe out a group unless there even on mini's or greys.
maybe u need to get more end game to see what i mean but i doubt anything has changed.
update 2 increased mob's HP.
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The issue isn't that they do too much damage, its that the alpha strike aoe elemenates the fight all together. no need for crowd controll, no fight realy, just BAM XP!
even if minion HP doubled (not saying it should just giving you a worse case scenerio) then blasters would be even MORE important to get through all that HP (plus the xp would go up, as statesman already said they're happy with present xp progression).
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I'm sorry but if a blaster is alpha striking mobs in a group setting then your group needs to seriously look into finding more challenging mobs. The xp you must be getting in a group like this is pittance.
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The issue isn't that they do too much damage, its that the alpha strike aoe elemenates the fight all together. no need for crowd controll, no fight realy, just BAM XP!
even if minion HP doubled (not saying it should just giving you a worse case scenerio) then blasters would be even MORE important to get through all that HP (plus the xp would go up, as statesman already said they're happy with present xp progression).
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I'm sorry but if a blaster is alpha striking mobs in a group setting then your group needs to seriously look into finding more challenging mobs. The xp you must be getting in a group like this is pittance.
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agreed
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How about keeping the Area the same, but have a damage scaling depending on the number of enemies affected. For each AoE power, set an arbitrary threshold for 100% damage. When you hit a group bigger than the threshold, damage (or even accuracy) per mob is decreased. This would reflect densely packed mobs inadvertently shielding each other from taking full damage through sheer proximity.
Range Increase enhancements could be used to adjust the threshold and damage scaling for more customization options.
This would lessen farming of huge mobs. It'll make the difference between fighting 5, 10, 20+ enemies at once much greater. It could also mean Player Characters taking less AoE damage when in larger groups (imagine huge Raid level events).
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I have a great idea. How about when tanks get attacked they get their full resistance against the first enemy but each enemy after that does more and more damage? And when controllers hold a group they hold 1 enemy for the full hold but the time is reduced for each enemy after that? Also, when a defender buffs/debuffs the effectiveness is reduced for each additional target. That would be great!
Oh wait... no... those suggestions are ridiculous. So is yours. Put down the nerf bat and quit your complaining.
-AZ
I agree with the original poster, AoE fix is needed only for 1 thing: preventing mob stacking... I grouped with a lvl 31 fire/device friend who Sked my defender last night. In Brickstown the only thing he would be able to fight relatively safely were grps of even lvl or +1 minions and lieutenant without any form of status effect. Put only 1 boss in the grp and hes dead (saw this). Put any mobs with status power in the grp and its also an almost garanteed death. I really think this is working as intended. Hes able to take minions with relative ease but he has problem with lieutenants and bosses.
Honestly the only problem i could see with AE powers is if you stack lot of mobs. And there are already some great suggestions to fix it in this threads. Scaling AoE dmg with the number of mobs affected is a pretty good idea. Doing high dmg on 3-10 mobs isn't that bad, the problem comes when theres like 20+ mobs under the AoE....
Aaron: The examples you give to support your point are not very strong... Holding a complete grp wont make the game boring because you still have to kill the mobs. A tanker holding lots of agro wont make the game boring. A defender debuffing a pack of mobs wont make the game boring... But a blaster alpha striking a grp of mob "might" make the game boring since everyone else who is not blaster wont have anything to do... To scale dmg with the number of mob affected might be a good solution because:
1) Blasters will still be able to solo, this wont affect normal sized grp of mobs.
2) Blasters will be able to use their AE when grouped since they will draw less agro (a lot of dmg per mob on 30 mob, if they are not dead, you are.)
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I'll have to agree that if they dial down the damage, they better dial down the agro.
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I keep seing how people bring up the subject of agro as the reason why area effects must insta kill or not exist at all.
I am a fire tanker, and in my groups NO ONE gets agro unless I die.
For now, i depend greately on provoke to achieve this, but remember that every tanker hit has taunt asociated with it. This is not EverQuest or Final Fantasy XI where only healing or damage angers an enemy, here provoke and taunt do, and all tanker attacks have taunt now and will be provokes soon.
As a fire tanker i do have an edge over other tankers as i have quiet a few area attacks to draw agro between provoke refreshes, soon that will change, i hope.
You will NEVER get the agro in a group with a tanker, and while solo you should NEVER get involved with enough enemies to be that dangerous.
Talk about agro is nonsence. Not even the most trigger happy of scrappers (maybe one with invinsibility, and then for only a few secs) can take agro from me.
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I call BS. I have played with tanks. Sure the Tank still take the blunt of the aggro, when I do a heavy strike, The come straight to me. Even when he has provoke. This happens epecialy with my Eng/Eng blaster when he uses his snipe. Got the tanker keeping the mob busy, I snipe. amost all the mob comes towards me. He ties to provoke them back only half comes back. I left to deal with 5-10 in missions. My aggro is so big that even the tanks cant keep them off me.
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Yes, AOE damage is an issue. We're still looking at ways to solve this. So no changes are imminent.
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I know you are not just "a" dev, but "the" dev, but...
are you smoking crack or something?
I run a level 31 blaster (fire/eng) respecced, maxxed out as best he can be, and my levelling speed is NIL.
How about FIXING that, and getting our speed back up?
-LM
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ROFLMAO!!!!!
Leveling speed is NIL....LMAO go solo an earth controller or stone tanker or any other class. Blasters level faster then EVERYONE else. So they slowed us down a bit....big deal.
Oh and to the one who said, Crytic said this game is not force you to group....go tell that to an MC/FF controller, or any controller for that matter.
My fire/dev with the SG fix is still killing groups in mass. So to the point who said if I can't kill it in one shot, the other guy was right. You don't know how to play.
My 4 year old has a fire/eng blaster who is 15 that he has done in no time since we won't let him sit in front of the computer forever.
And last, no one said you HAVE to group with a tank. My wife, son and I have 3 blasters, 2 fire/dev and one fire/eng.
No group (appropriate for our level) stands up to 3 FoB, 3 Fireballs......quit hunting reds and move on or group up to kill them.
AoE max mobs hit = 4. Don't change the accuracy, just cap the # of opponents you can hit. 5 might be a better number.
AoE max damage = 4 X single target damage, if you hit more than 4 targets the damage per target starts to decrease.
I'm sure there are other ways. The second idea is in keeping with the idea that a blast only has so much power and that power gets distributed amongst the targets.
AoE is AoE, so this should affect ALL AoE, not just blaster.
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The issue isn't that they do too much damage, its that the alpha strike aoe elemenates the fight all together. no need for crowd controll, no fight realy, just BAM XP!
even if minion HP doubled (not saying it should just giving you a worse case scenerio) then blasters would be even MORE important to get through all that HP (plus the xp would go up, as statesman already said they're happy with present xp progression).
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Here's how fights generally happen...
A. you get a good alpha strike on a group that you can handle and the fight is over
B. you get a good alpha strike on a group that you can't handle (Issue 2), those who are left over completely destroy you
C. you get a good alpha strike on a group that you can't handle (Issue 2), those who are left over are split on aggro between you and a tanker... they still kill you
D. you get a controller to help you... but don't get me started on controllers because I already think they are gimped. (which is not their fault)
If you are going to take away our ability to kill (our only defense), then we need higher HP or something to help mitigate the tankers inability to to hold ALL aggro. Any ounce of aggro left on us takes us to the grave. I've also found that one healer can barely keep up with the amount of damage I am taking. I am constantly dipping from full to red as they try to heal me. One healer actually killed herself trying to keep me alive with absorb pain. Maybe not the smartest thing to do, but I give her a huge amount of credit for trying. Oh, and that team did have a tanker without provoke. Don't know if it would have mattered anyway.
Which brings back the subject of forced grouping if changes are made to AoE.
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ROFLMAO!!!!!
Leveling speed is NIL....LMAO go solo an earth controller or stone tanker or any other class. Blasters level faster then EVERYONE else. So they slowed us down a bit....big deal.
Oh and to the one who said, Crytic said this game is not force you to group....go tell that to an MC/FF controller, or any controller for that matter.
My fire/dev with the SG fix is still killing groups in mass. So to the point who said if I can't kill it in one shot, the other guy was right. You don't know how to play.
My 4 year old has a fire/eng blaster who is 15 that he has done in no time since we won't let him sit in front of the computer forever.
And last, no one said you HAVE to group with a tank. My wife, son and I have 3 blasters, 2 fire/dev and one fire/eng.
No group (appropriate for our level) stands up to 3 FoB, 3 Fireballs......quit hunting reds and move on or group up to kill them.
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i call BS on this... in fact if u have any proof u can do this to non even con mobs i'd give u my accoutn info.
your a lvl 20 Fire/DEV blaster so i take this with a grain of salt.
maybe u have yet to play since update 2 went live. but u try to do that now and u wil die very very fast without help from someone taking aggro.
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The issue isn't that they do too much damage, its that the alpha strike aoe elemenates the fight all together. no need for crowd controll, no fight realy, just BAM XP!
even if minion HP doubled (not saying it should just giving you a worse case scenerio) then blasters would be even MORE important to get through all that HP (plus the xp would go up, as statesman already said they're happy with present xp progression).
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Here's how fights generally happen...
A. you get a good alpha strike on a group that you can handle and the fight is over
B. you get a good alpha strike on a group that you can't handle (Issue 2), those who are left over completely destroy you
C. you get a good alpha strike on a group that you can't handle (Issue 2), those who are left over are split on aggro between you and a tanker... they still kill you
D. you get a controller to help you... but don't get me started on controllers because I already think they are gimped. (which is not their fault)
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very much true
There's a couple facts that the devs know that give me comfort on this and all related "nerf" issues:
1) Many people build strong opinions based on mis-perceptions that they think are facts
2) Those same people tend to be very whiney
3) To seek an outlet for their whining, those people disproportionately come to the boards
4) The devs gather a lot of data in the game
5) The devs know reality a lot better than the mis-perceiving whiners
So here's what I think the devs will conclude with regard to this AOE issue:
1) A lot of character types are able to solo group content a lot better than intended
2) Fire tanks, spines scrappers and fire and illusion controllers are the biggest offenders, post 30 and post issue 2. (Fire and AR blasters are still there, but dying in mass quantities now in post 30 encounters)
3) The problem has very a little to do with character balance, but much more to do with group content design
4) Group encounters need to be harder for everyone
5) The easiest way to get there is increase number of bosses and LT's in group encounters
6) LT's need to be a bit tougher
And the result will make life harder for AOE blasters because they can no longer solo group content. And then the cries will again go out against fire tanks, invuln and regen scrappers, and fire and illusion controllers. And with those I fear the problems will end up being nerfs. I don't really want to see it, but the fact is all those classes have incredible damage mitigation and damage output. (At least for the AOE enabled scrapper types.) That was just addressed in a significant way with devices blasters. (As a devices blaster I think it was long overdue.)
Anyway, I have a bit of faith in the devs, a complete lack of faith in the objectivity of the whiners, and a great appreciation of irony. And what promises to be ironic is that the solution to the complaints will probably come back and hurt the complainers. Group content will get harder, group based rewards will be increased to compensate, and they'll cry that the game is too hard while the people that embrace the MM part of MMORPG will reap the benefits. (That's us powergamers, by the way. We want things really hard for everyone so that we can establish to ourselves and to everyone else that we are better, smarter or at least more willing to grind than the masses.)
honestly, no kidding, dont nerf aoe
u've stated that some "builds" are better at solo'ing than others, some aoe builds solo quite well, why rob the solo'ers of their fun ?
there are lots and lots of folks who are willing to team, and be parts of teams, and the more challenging missions and task forces require a decent team AT composition, even if u have an aoe power build
not everyone is running out and making these builds either, some people yes, but not the majority
if anything what is causing some people to run after every FOTM or power build is the steep lvl'ing curve in the game, it is an exceedingly long and tedious process to go all the way up to 50 (yes i hear that other games are worse, and that almost blows my mind there 
), and there is a % of players who are going to want to speed that up a bit and will go for power builds
why not let them ?
also with all these new additions ur making to the game, lvl'ing speed and raw hero lvl are no longer going to be the single defining prestige of a hero, badge collecting is becoming huge, and badges are a more substantial way of showing off a character's accomplishmnets, demonstrating that you've actually played through the whole game, and not just power grinded ur way to 50...im sure more of these additions are coming
so in the end - who cares if some guys use power builds to speed up their lvl'ing ?
and if u say pvp, im pretty sure its going to be balanced in some way so lower lvl players are not pitted against higher players AND aoe will be the worst AT's in PvP combat
Over the hills and through the woods.
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AoE max mobs hit = 4. Don't change the accuracy, just cap the # of opponents you can hit. 5 might be a better number.
AoE max damage = 4 X single target damage, if you hit more than 4 targets the damage per target starts to decrease.
I'm sure there are other ways. The second idea is in keeping with the idea that a blast only has so much power and that power gets distributed amongst the targets.
AoE is AoE, so this should affect ALL AoE, not just blaster.
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A cap on #hit would be bad. Too limiting for those who want to hit more. Also, you can't select more than one person, so you won't have control of who you're hitting. As missing is usually a Bad Thing, accuracy scaling should be very slight (if at all).
The damage idea with scaling is like what I proposed earlier, but with a suggested hard number (4). I'm thinking different powers could get different damage caps and scaling to differentiate them more. It makes them less of the same power with different graphics.
These ideas could be used for all AoE Damage powers. Kind of hesitant about status/control AoEs though, as they get penalties to Acc, whereas Blaster AoEs can come with bonus to Acc.
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I'd love to see enhancements to increase the area of effect of a power.
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I fully agree. More powers need to have the ability to tweak all properties they have. I think we'd see a variation on slotting instead of there being such an emphasis on the 'power 10'. I'd also like to see an increase damage buff (instead of only tohit buff) on all pbaoe powers.
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Yes, AOE damage is an issue. We're still looking at ways to solve this. So no changes are imminent.
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Well if my AoE cannot kill it in one volley I'm not using it. So you might as well take AoE out of the game entirely. A blaster using AoE that will not kill in 1 volley is just asking for debt. The lowest hit point AT drawing the aggro of every single mob, yeah sounds like a great idea.
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Thank you for proving the point.
You have no clue how to play your AT or how the AT is supposed to fit in the game.
If you over nuke, you die! Period... 1 on 1, a blaster will outblast a single foe, thats how it should be... AoE blasters should be just as group oriented as a controller or defender. You regelate yourself to a damage support AT that needs massive tank or controller help to not die...