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Depends on the boss. As a /dev blaster probably becuase /dev blasters have (or at least my build has) a lot of defense enough to decrease the risk to an acceptable level. Regular blasters? Nah.
Btw most high level (35+) bosses cannot be kited becuase they attack mainly through ranged attacks. Take a Rikti Chief Soldier for example. Sure he hits for close to 1k dmg + disorient on his melee, but he also hits for around 500+dmg + disorient on his ranged.
At lvl 50 my blaster has 1017hp. That is no joke. Over half my hp gone. Even at 10x the exp many blasters arent going to take that kind of risk soloing unless they have a serious source of damage mitigation like dev blasters do (+70% DEF on mine) even with so high a reward. Whats more likely is that you would see more blasters forming Duos and Trios to take down the bosses.
Now single target blasters like elec and ice are a different story of course.
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hmm I see your point now, yeah I guess I would bomb and run too 
Those single target blasters still have to figure out how to kill off all the minions and Lt's before they can get to the bosses though... advantage still way in favor of the AoE, it's not even close and it should be.
The way I see it, AoE's target many foes for but at a cost of less damage than their single target brethern, much less than currently implemented.
for the most part AoE in general is not overpowered. It is the extra little defenses that allow it to happen: such as inviso/ss/sg.
Trust me I know first hand being a fire/elec blaster with hover as an only defense. I have to be delegate very differently in order to not be taken down very quikly. I still have to stay on the ground mostly for aoe and elec to be effective. Only using hover as an escape from heavy melee.
I get alot of use out of my elec secondary because of no extra defenses. I have to do some melee and mass dissorients and holds to stay alive when situations get hairy.
It all depends on your build/defenses as to what you can take out fast and effectively. Thats why SG is getting changed becuase it seemed to be working better than it should. especialy sg combined with inviso/ss is an uber build for aoe blasters.
So of course 80% of blasters wnated to be like sheep and follow each other and have the same thing because it worked.
So lets not blame it strictly on AoE, Thanx.
I think 1/3 to 1/4 of a single target damage would be a good thing. They would just have to reduce the recharge time to that of a single target attack.
That way a blaster would be committing suicide if he runs up to a large group and starts using AOE, but if he has a controller or a tanker (and there are three or more bad guys) he can quickly fire off his AOE attacks. That would be doing more damage for the team than a single target blaster.
Ironic thing there is that would move the fire/* blaster from the best solo blaster to the most group oriented one.
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That way a blaster would be committing suicide if he runs up to a large group and starts using AOE, but if he has a controller or a tanker (and there are three or more bad guys) he can quickly fire off his AOE attacks. That would be doing more damage for the team than a single target blaster.
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even with a tanker around, with the fire blaster aoeing, it'd still be suicidal. i think if they lower aoe's dmg, they should also lower the mass aggro rate from an aoe. even if the tanker aggros first, and a fireblaster breath+ball afterwards, all the mins would be shotting at the poor fire blaster. i doubt any emp can heal fast enough.
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agreed, but if I were a fire/* blaster, I'd Inferno, pop a chicklet or 2 and kite the boss if it were worth 10x the exp, after all there are no minions or Lt's left after my Inferno.
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How is this a problem when you can do it once every 5 min? The real problems comes from AoEs and combos that can be used every 15 seconds and kill large numbers of yellow/orange minions.
The L32 powers are supposed to be awesome but most come with such a large downside in the form of recharge and end drain that they do not even come remotely close to unbalancing the game. On the blaster side its the Full Autos, Fire breath and flame thrower that are the real problem.
Lesser AoEs from scrappers and tankers who can survive to throw them almost indefinitely can also be a problem since they do not need to kill everything in the first 5 seconds. Instead they can do it over 10-20 seconds and get nearly as much xp/hour for very little risk.
Here are a few of my mental drippings about the consequences of tweaking AoE damage.
You can't alter the AoE damage without upping the rewarded EXP. If I am doing less damage, that means it is taking longer for both me to level and consequently any of my SG mates that are grouping with me. This doesnt even take into consideration that we are already making less progress as EXP is distributed to the rest of the folks in the group and that the group EXP bonus is so poorly designed that having more than 4 people in the group is virtually a EXP penalty. CoH is already a grind/timesink post level 30 for all but a few builds, so altering the efficacy of AoEs without increasing the rewarded EXP simply slows down level progression. I for one don't want to get to 50 as fast as humanly possible, but I don't want acquiring one level to take a month or two either. Not upping rewarded EXP if AoEs are negatively altered simply increases the time it takes to level. Is the goal here balance for ATs, or to slow down ATs that level fast?
After about level 30-35, alpha striking or AoE'ing large packs of mobs becomes more and more risky. After level 40 its nearly suicide to try the same alpha-striking tactics that worked in Brickstown - because of bosses and LTs that can hold, stun, or one-shot poorly defensed Blasters. Blasters give up HPs and defense so that they ARE able to deliver incredible damage. Its just that enemy group composition doesn't really expose those defensive weaknesses in Blasters until the more powerful bosses and LTs are encountered at later levels, which effectively neutralize hit-run or alpha strike tactics. Considering the lethal group composition of enemies post level 40, if AoE damage is altered negatively, it will be extremely difficult to play alone as an AoE blaster and it will force grouping. Is the goal here balance for all ATs, or to force grouping?
I group regularly with my SG mates and generally have more fun playing with other heroes who know what they are doing than playing alone, but removing the possibility or even feasibility for me to play alone will make me (and dare I say other blasters) think twice about spending any more time and money on this virtual entertainment. I enjoy a gaming challenge, but I dont want to pay someone to frustrate me while I am supposed to be blowing off some steam after a day at the office I get that for free from my spouse and kids.
I am not saying that changes are not warranted or acceptable; Im just saying it should be done equitably taking into consideration how changing AoE damage will affect a level 10, 20, 30, 40, or level 50 blaster. It should also be done completely disregarding some of the more vocal proponents of the Nerf Blasters Camp who seem to have other motives besides a genuine effort at balancing ATs.
However Bunker, this is balanced i think. The AoE blaster cant handle groups with Bosses and/or Large groups of Lts (which is why its so different in the PI vs Bricktown). Conversely the Single Target Blaster cant handle groups with lots of minions and will go after groups consisting of a small amount of powerful enemies.
For instance i have seen Ice Blasters take out +3 Fake Nemesis, with two Lts. That would be out of the question for any AoE blaster, even one with a lot of Defense, unless a LOT of inspirations were used.
The real problem as i see it lies in the fact that a group such as this doesnt give as much exp as a group of 8-10 +3 minions. Which is exactly the kind of group an AoE blaster is looking for.
Moridin, its interesting that you say that becuase when most people think about a blaster destroying hordes of enemies in the post 40 game, they are thinking about skills like Inferno, becuase that is the only shot a Blaster has at doing this and living to tell about it unless said Blaster has a ton of defense or a lot of Lucks.
And of course we both know well that 5 minutes doesnt mean 5 minutes. It means just under 2.
Well said Embyr.
The largest issue with lowering AoE damage is that most people advocating this change are basing their rants on middle to low level gameplay (less than level 40), and do not realize the game changes drastically again, around level 38. With the exception of blasters using the bugged Smoke Grenade power, blasters are no-longer fighting any groups (except even level, and the occasional +1) solo post 40, unless they like accruing debt. Almost every group of MoBs have bosses once you hit PI, or else even the minions have dangerous powers.
In the middle levels, blasters become ridiculous, but their uberness quickly dissappears shortly after level 38.
As for fire tanks, I don't play one, so my only comments would be based on hearsay, therefore I have no comment.
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However Bunker, this is balanced i think. The AoE blaster cant handle groups with Bosses and/or Large groups of Lts (which is why its so different in the PI vs Bricktown). Conversely the Single Target Blaster cant handle groups with lots of minions and will go after groups consisting of a small amount of powerful enemies.
For instance i have seen Ice Blasters take out +3 Fake Nemesis, with two Lts. That would be out of the question for any AoE blaster, even one with a lot of Defense, unless a LOT of inspirations were used.
The real problem as i see it lies in the fact that a group such as this doesnt give as much exp as a group of 8-10 +3 minions. Which is exactly the kind of group an AoE blaster is looking for.
Moridin, its interesting that you say that becuase when most people think about a blaster destroying hordes of enemies in the post 40 game, they are thinking about skills like Inferno, becuase that is the only shot a Blaster has at doing this and living to tell about it unless said Blaster has a ton of defense or a lot of Lucks.
And of course we both know well that 5 minutes doesnt mean 5 minutes. It means just under 2.
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Well this has been most informative for me
My only experience with blaster's is teaming with embyr and another 42 ar/dev blaster and seeing how they basically level our SG with the rest of us basically meatshields and buff bots, well until I leveled up the fire tank (and yes I think the fire tank is overpowered).
I'm now leaning towards the increase Lt/Boss exp route as that seems to cover both sides post 38ish.
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My only experience with blaster's is teaming with embyr and another 42 ar/dev blaster and seeing how they basically level our SG with the rest of us basically meatshields and buff bots, well until I leveled up the fire tank (and yes I think the fire tank is overpowered).
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Actually the AR/Dev blaster is essentially relgating you to those rolls. Anytime I get in a group with a */Devices blaster, rest of the group might as well go AFK, because they are adding almost nothing, except buffs, an occasional heal, and some damage. Smoke Grenade is being fixed. A */Devices blaster can no longer replace the Defender, Tanker, and Controller with 1 power after issue 2 goes live.
Yes, I know */devices people are angry about this chnge, but SG needed a change.
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. . . with the rest of us basically meatshields and buff bots, well until I leveled up the fire tank . . .
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Just as an aside, isn't that exactly what support AT's should be doing in a good group? Most Tanks would be happy just to be needed as a meatshield these days.
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Moridin, its interesting that you say that becuase when most people think about a blaster destroying hordes of enemies in the post 40 game, they are thinking about skills like Inferno
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IMO this is mostly coming from people who have seen the power but never actually used it. These powers are fun but you simply do not use them to level.
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And of course we both know well that 5 minutes doesnt mean 5 minutes. It means just under 2.
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The original 5 min was rounding. The base is 6 min, with hasten its just under 4. With hasten and some recharge reducers you can get it to a little over 2 min with decent damage but it still doesnt matter. When you need 2000 mobs to level killing 10 every 2 min adds up to 60 hours of game time.
Full on the other hand Auto can kill 10 mobs every 16 seconds with hasten and deal comparable damage because it doesnt need to waste slots on recharge. FA does nearly 10X the DPS of the other blaster L32 powers, and thats the good ones not blizzard.
Granted, i would say most people who say that period dont actually have a 40+ blaster.
Thats not taking Aim into account though. AR doesnt get it.
Full Auto also has a number of disadvantages to it. 1 it doesnt deal nearly the damage of Inferno or Nova in practice. Half on a good day. 2. It takes 6 seconds to deal that damage. It doesnt have that "wham your dead" kind of effect.
As for it killing 10 mobs. My Full Auto is 6 slotted all damage and it doesnt one shot anything higher then an even con minion. Maybe a +1 if a get a few good criticals.
On the otherhand i have witnessed first hand Nova one shotting +3 minions and bringing +3 Lts to a slither of health.
As for using it to solo, it depends. The energy blasters i roll with can kick out a Nova every other fight pretty much. We like to duo it up and when we come upon a group of especially tough foes, we do a simultaneous Nova+FA for the WIN.
But as i stated. I dont think AoE is unbalanced. Whats unbalanced is the exp reward of minions vs bosses and Lts.
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Moridin, its interesting that you say that becuase when most people think about a blaster destroying hordes of enemies in the post 40 game, they are thinking about skills like Inferno
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IMO this is mostly coming from people who have seen the power but never actually used it. These powers are fun but you simply do not use them to level.
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I disagree with this. I just got 47 on my main and ever since level 41 when I got Thunderous Blast, I've used it just about as often as it comes up (hasten 6-slotted at 46; yeah I know I had a sucky build). I solo 95% of the time and have had immensely good luck hunting with TB.
The groups I exp on in Peregrine are always nemesis and come in the following (rough) formats:
- 2 to 5 minions
- 1 lieutenant with maybe 1 minion
- 12 (or so) lieutenants/minions with more lieutenants if there are large groups hunting nearby (I stay away from anything with a boss since the risk/reward is poor)
With single target blasts I can smoke through the first two types of groups pretty easily and they're fairly common. Using buildup and aim I can even take on higher level targets (+2 is about the best risk/reward for me). Great, but that's not going to get me 4 mil to 48 in a reasonable amount of time.
With Thunderous Blast I can destroy just about any group of the last type I care to shoot at up to +3 (or so). It's a little tricky when the lieutenants don't go down in the first shot with vengeance and all but otherwise it's a group I can't even begin to solo. Unless I miss, the minions all die and usually the bulk of the firepower with them leaving maybe 15-30 seconds of cleanup depending on the level of the remaining baddies. Without Thunderous, I can't even approach groups like that and even small groups with multiple lieutenants tend to not be worthwhile.
Here's a rough comparison of the payout considering that finding a fight is my biggest source of downtime (again, nothing with bosses; not worth the risk):
- 1600 - 4000 exp for even level in the first group type
- 2000 - 2800 exp for even level in the second group type
- 12K - 16K exp for even level in the last group type
I average around 3 of the smaller single target battles for every one of the larger battles. A group of the first type at level 50 is going to be a rough fight for me; I just don't hit often enough. A group of the last type at level 50 is far easier with a higher payout so long as the remaining lieutenants don't kill me in their alpha strike (all of the minions I hit will be dead). It is not uncommon for me to gain 20K-35K per pull opening with Thunderous blast.
Why do I do this other than the fact that it's incredibly fun? If I don't use Thunderous while soloing, the number of fights that I can win is smaller thus more down time thus more time per level (and at current rate I won't hit 50 by hour 500). I can double *or more* my current exp/hour by hunting with Thunderous because the single battle payout is so much larger for a similar investment in time.
If it seems like I've obsessed over these numbers, well, I've had a lot of time to think about it.
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When you need 2000 mobs to level killing 10 every 2 min adds up to 60 hours of game time.
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If you want to be picky about it, it's 4050 even level minions from level 38 on up to at least 47 (probably 50 but I haven't been there to know for certain). If I'm not killing 10-20 worth in one shot every fourth or so battle, it's going to take me even longer.
/exa
ok to model22 i have to comment... you want more grouping in the game... well i come from everquest.. and they did that.. promoted grouping. they also screwed up the game so much that not only tons left.. but those that stay now find they have to get groups to kill mobs 1, 2, even 3 levels BELOW then (at higher levels). i for one see no real issue with AoEs in CoH. the only alpha strikes i can do are on either good bit lower then me critters or with someone there with AoE root.
please do not beg and plead and hound the dervs for more reasons to group. that will lead to a game like EQ. and if you love EQ then you hate CoH. and if you hate CoH why are you playing it?
please dont screw up a VERY good game like CoH.
ok Bunker... you play a fire firre TANKER.... and you are complaining about blaster AoEs???? i PLAY a fire fire BLASTER and all an AoE does for me on reds and purples is get me a fast ticket to the hospital. i suggest you make sure of the level of blaster doing the AoEs before complaining.
if anyone should be nerfed its you fire fire tankers... from what you said they are WAY too strong. 100 hours to lvl 40???
again Bunker you forget that blaster dont have the defense and hps of tankers. every boss i have come across in the game so far (up to lvl 20) that has been an equal level boss can and has taken me out with 2 or 3 hits. 4 if i have hover on and i DO have defense on that hover. and yes more then one.
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ok Bunker... you play a fire firre TANKER.... and you are complaining about blaster AoEs???? i PLAY a fire fire BLASTER and all an AoE does for me on reds and purples is get me a fast ticket to the hospital. i suggest you make sure of the level of blaster doing the AoEs before complaining.
if anyone should be nerfed its you fire fire tankers... from what you said they are WAY too strong. 100 hours to lvl 40???
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agreed... if you look through my posts you'd see that I agree my tanker is over the top. I am also not complaining about blaster's AoEs but ALL AoEs. I've also stated that other proposed fixes MAY be better than reducing overall AoE damage. I don't want a nerf, I want balance.
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ok Bunker... you play a fire firre TANKER.... and you are complaining about blaster AoEs???? i PLAY a fire fire BLASTER and all an AoE does for me on reds and purples is get me a fast ticket to the hospital. i suggest you make sure of the level of blaster doing the AoEs before complaining.
if anyone should be nerfed its you fire fire tankers... from what you said they are WAY too strong. 100 hours to lvl 40???
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agreed... if you look through my posts you'd see that I agree my tanker is over the top. I am also not complaining about blaster's AoEs but ALL AoEs. I've also stated that other proposed fixes MAY be better than reducing overall AoE damage. I don't want a nerf, I want balance.
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understood, BUT my example of a fire/* blaster just running around doing inferno (I guess only really viable pre level 40 per this threads discussion) is a relatively safe way to level.
I have a problem with the fact that it takes 4 weeks, less than 100 hours, etc to level these AoE characters myself included to level 40.
Many have posted reply's including punishr's about boss and lt exp increase, maybe there is something there. Definitely more discussion needs to be done.
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The answer:
Give non 32 aoes a modified accuracy table that lowers the to accuracy cap for things over your own level. Against things 1 level higher than you, the to hit cap is lowerd to 85%, against 2 levels, 75%, against 3 levels, 65% and 4+ 50%.
You can not raise this cap with anything.
What this will do is make AoEs the same against even minions, allowing soloing, and keep them usefull against higher level mobs, but only to thin/damage the group, not to kill it outright. Then single target attacks will be faster and more efficiant at killing the few remaining mobs, giving non aoe blasters/scrappers an important role in team efficiancy. What this will require is tankers/controllers if you want to aoe things over your own level, making them more usefull.
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I think this is one of the most well-thought-out and practical ideas in a "nerf-this" thread. Understand that I have a full page of Heros that I play at various times. Scrapper, defender, controller, tank and a couple of blasters are among them. I enjoy variety, but my favorite two are both blasters with significant AOE powers. They both are great RP personalities, which adds to the great playability. But, I have to admit that I enjoy the AOE style of play. In most games I end up picking the AOE style class, if one exists.
The adjusting of accuracy, for levels higher than yourself, makes the most sense to me. This would not affect the AOErs who use it as initially intended and would remove a lot of the abuse that has cause such a stir. The mass killing of +3, +4, +35 groups would slow a lot.
Another good idea, that would stop abuse of the AOE powerset, is as follows:
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At the same time you will likely see an increase in mob xp, and possibly more weight put into boss xp and less in minions so the focus of the game shifts from killing lots of minions for xp to killing the minions to get at the boss, which is where the xp is.
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This would stop the strategy of "run up, Alhpha Strike killing minions and maybe some LTs, run away leaving the stragglers for another group to clean up." This seems to be the main strategy of the "Level 60 in 6 days" type threads. If the minions were significantly less XP than LTs, and Way less exp than Bosses, these hit and run practitioners would get less XP and would most likely start hanging around a bit longer to clean up their mess.
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...What this will require is tankers/controllers if you want to aoe things over your own level, making them more usefull.
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This sounds like a prospective change that would force me to group if wanted to level without an extended grind. As has already been stated in this and other threads, the risk of using AoEs post level 40 is extremely high against tougher, stronger villains. As the game currently works, death is all but ensured if you alpha strike any group with bosses or certain LTs that can hold or stun (remember, powers like Inferno leave you with no endurance or recovery thereof for 10 seconds after using it). The changes in that proposed solution makes it even more dangerous than it currently is to attempt that sort of encounter.
I think that solution was proposed in good faith, but I'll pass.
/veto
Thanks,
1 Thing I would suggest though is a slightly different Acc % than what you propose... The % for +1s is to low, should be more in the 90-95% range someplace. +1s are way to common to lower it much more, and they still don't give a HUGE XP gain... +2s an up though should definately be adjusted.
Also...
I just read a post from Positron about the "forced grouping" missions that were added to Update # 2 on the test server. He removed those from the Story Arcs and changed them to one-off missions because:
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Our goal is not to prevent you from completing Story Arcs or Multi-stage missions you started as a solo character, and we feel that this (removing forced grouping from the Story Arcs-embyr) best accomplishes that with the system we have in place right now.
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This statement seems to imply that making people group is not an intention that they have with the current AT system.
Thanks,
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This statement seems to imply that making people group is not an intention that they have with the current AT system.
Thanks,
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There is a big difference between making people group and limiting what they can take on without a group. If you want quotes try this one from statesman (Posted today)
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No - we're not done with Super Reflexes. It's still "on the list" of ongoing issues, but it's sort of on a back burner right now.
The number one priority is to get Expansion 2 live. After that, it's fixing the problem that the game is TOO easy post level 25ish (and AOE attacks just rule). Then I'll be returning to dear ole' SR. Promise.
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Depends on the boss. As a /dev blaster probably becuase /dev blasters have (or at least my build has) a lot of defense enough to decrease the risk to an acceptable level. Regular blasters? Nah.
Btw most high level (35+) bosses cannot be kited becuase they attack mainly through ranged attacks. Take a Rikti Chief Soldier for example. Sure he hits for close to 1k dmg + disorient on his melee, but he also hits for around 500+dmg + disorient on his ranged.
At lvl 50 my blaster has 1017hp. That is no joke. Over half my hp gone. Even at 10x the exp many blasters arent going to take that kind of risk soloing unless they have a serious source of damage mitigation like dev blasters do (+70% DEF on mine) even with so high a reward. Whats more likely is that you would see more blasters forming Duos and Trios to take down the bosses.
Now single target blasters like elec and ice are a different story of course.