Regarding recent changes
By
AbuliaDon,
Posted on: 2004-05-13 19:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now, scrappers are the class of choice for the bored L40s who are waiting for the rest of us, and want to play something that isn't like turning on God mode when they log in. Defenders, well... apparently no one is *that* bored yet.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol, it's possible that some Scrapper builds are overpowered, I have no idea about that, but most Scrapper builds are hardly overpowered, including most of those that included Hasten in some form. Are there scrappers at 40? Probably some MA/Invlunerabilty Scrappers or something, but I doubt there are more Scrappers up there than Blasters.
Don't go spreading unfounded rumors like that, it just even further throws off the AT balancing efforts.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you misread my post... I'm all for Scrappers getting some love from the devs, and even more so after the Hasten nerf.
What I said was that the bored L40s (mostly Blasters) are playing Scrappers because Scrappers are actually hard to play/underpowered, which is a total switch for them compared to their mains... 
I think this game would be kinda silly, if you did not need 6 slots to max out a power. What would be the use of having 6 slots? I also think it is fair game to make it attractive to put other things in the slots as well rather than 6 of the same. If the power has only one enhancement then only when it get 6 top slots should it be the "best". As far as I can tell, this is part of the challenge of the game.
I deleted my Illussion/Rad controller due to the end problems.
I remade her to Illussion/Kenetics controller, oh well I can only give myself end now.
I also play a Dark/Rad defender. This build is one of the lower end builds that I have made. I have flagged a few powers to get end reducers and I am not using enduracne.
I found that controller/defender are slightly gimped due to the thou shall not do more damage than blasters. (Reminds of the thou stall not be able to tank better than a warrior). The controller set having the gimpiest powerset combos.
Gecko could you reconsider the thou shall not kill thing. I really would like a board moderate who is willing to kill for the gaming comunitee.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, with that said, let me give you my 10 Commandments of Geko:
*I will always listen to the community (that goes for the boards, in game, and thru mining data and statistics).
*I will not be scared to be wrong.
*I will react as quickly as possible, but not sooner than needed.
*I will not be scared to be unpopular.
*I will not make a change to the game simply because it is popular.
*I will do my best to continue to make this game fun.
*I will not intentionally stealth nerf.
*I will not reduce Accuracy.
*I will try my best to give you detailed information.
*I will make Statesman wash my car.
(well, 9 out of 10 aint bad)
[/ QUOTE ]
Why isn't this on there?
*I will not lie to the players
or
*I will be honest at all times regarding CoH game systems and mechanics
Obviously there are some things you aren't allowed to reveal, so the appropriate response would be "Not allowed to answer that". I think all rational people can accept that answer. I would hope people wouldn't ask for the why of it and just accept you have limits to what information you can dole out.
BUT
It is entirely unacceptable to say "100% working as intended, will not change" and then change it barely two weeks later. I think it is unacceptable to change it ever, without explaining the reasoning behind the change but that is just me.
Just please treat us better then you (Cryptic) did with the TF and nerf patch and I will resubscribe. I like this game, I plan to play it for a long time if I am convinced enough to resubscribe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cryptic has never lied to us. Not once. I've seen mistakes made, and corrections and revisions to those mistakes, but never outright lies.
They never said Hasten would not change. They said it was working as intended at the end of beta, and that it seemed to be balanced. They found this to be untrue, so they changed it. This isn't a lie of any sort.
If I gave you an unopened gallon of milk and said it should be fine, you would drink it yes? Then if it was sour, did I lie to you?
How was I to know?
How were they to know that Hasten was that broken before the end of beta? They didn't have the massive amount of players, and all the data that provides before that time.
Leave. Don't come back. I'm not going to miss you, nor is anyone else.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for taking care of this for me, Teuxx, because I was about to break it all down on this guy---in far less polite terms. I just hope the Team can withstand this kind of outrageous accusation and innuendo (even in the face of their direct honesty!) and not change and become defensive and jaded.
GRRR
Geko and Team! Thanks for spelling all that out for those who have never interacted with you folks. Those of us who've been through beta and the old bboards already knew all this---it never had to be said. Keep up the awesome work; we do appreciate it.
Cal
[ QUOTE ]
So I was correct in saying the AM increase was a knee jerk reaction and unfairly lumped in with hasten. AM haste increase is about half of what Hasten and its not available to everyone like Hasten was.
That being said your post "glossed" over the reasons. Sure its a good buff, sure it has many + elements. But look at the Radiation line hard and tell me we dont need it. Maybe fix the stacking, or decrease the %'s or take out some of the useless + elements such as fly.
I say either correct it properly or leave it the way it was, increasing the recharge timer until you could figure out what to do with it was lousy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the reason that Rad Defenders *feel* so changed is that they are used to having a lot of endurance to burn. I'm 90% postive if I built my (dark/dark) Defender around having a lot more endurance, I'd have tweaked my powers to recharge *much* faster. As it is, that is the *last* thing I do and I can run out of endurance PDQ with just healing and having my AOE defense buff going with occasional blasts to debuff (while attacking).
(edit: Now that I think about it, the Rad Defender I was teamed with a day or so ago was wonder why my AOE heal was doing about 30% more than his. He asked me if I had speeded it up, which I said no. I went the maximize healing DO's at 15th level. Gotta get one more so I can have four on it pluss 2xDO accuracies.)
[ QUOTE ]
About AM. I hope it has not gone unnoticed that AM is a good buff. It buffs your attack speed AND your run speed AND your fly speed AND your damage output AND protects you from sleep, hold and immobilize. 2 rad defenders could keep this buff on the team permanently. Even 1 could do the same thing wiht a few recharge enhancements.
[/ QUOTE ]
Most AM users don't seem to think it will be possible, even fully loaded out with recycle time reducers. Indeed, I had Hasten with 1 DO recycling faster than AM with 3.
Under construction
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...who clearly have no grasp of even the most basic concepts of game balance and game design, no matter how loudly they may shout...
[/ QUOTE ]
So its game balance that I spend half my time sitting around waiting for end to regen? Do you spend half your time sitting around waiting for end?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why, yes, my Dark Dark Defender does spend a lot of time regenerating my endurance. And I don't get a power that even allows me to get it back that is nearly that cool.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders and controllers rely on AM for the one attribute you failed to mention, endurance regen. How bout removing the run speed, flight speed, damage add, and then reduce the time recharge back some ?
Read thru the 30 posts on people complaining about the AM adjustment, i dont see a single one complaining about loss of run speed, flight speed, or damage increase. Pretty much every thread is the loss of endurance regen for normal fighting, ans some for the haste effect . Its now used only for a boss fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I actualy had that, and accidently edited it out. But that is a very significant part of the power. But that sorta is my point. AoE END REcovery is very powerfull. Only Emapthy has another AoE Recovery boost, and its the second to last power and has a 500 second recahrge. Nothing is more powerful than END. It is probably more important than HP. That is what makes AM so powerfull, and why its recharge was increased. Other defenders dont have that advantage. It was unbalanced. But again, the RT tie will be reduced, but not to the way to used to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Last night, this power was used on our team to defeat Dr Vahzilok---one of the longest battles I've yet experienced in the game (and this coming from beta where I had the same battle). The first attempt without it operating ended in complete defeat heh heh--and it was fun. The second attempt, the controller used it (I guess, I don't play a controller). We won---barely. It was an exciting fight. Not once did I hear any complaint from that controller about this power. He or she (not sure who was who as it was a pickup team) used it strategically, when it was most needed. It is not useless, I assure you---far from it. My point is, even AFTER the 'adjustment' , the power is still very much a deciding factor in super battles.
thanks
Cal
[ QUOTE ]
Soon after launch, it quickly became clear that it was still too good. We neglected to consider that Hasten Hated itself, which was allowing players to keep it on all the time. I dont have a problem with it being on all the time, but I do have a problem with it being on all the time with only a handful of DO Enhancements. So we were wrong. It was not working as intended. Accelerate Metabolism was only adding to the problem. So we made a change. If needed, we will be happy to make another change.
About AM. I hope it has not gone unnoticed that AM is a good buff. It buffs your attack speed AND your run speed AND your fly speed AND your damage output AND protects you from sleep, hold and immobilize. 2 rad defenders could keep this buff on the team permanently. Even 1 could do the same thing wiht a few recharge enhancements. That really is too much buff time for an AoE buff that is this powerful. Again, I negelcted to account for the fact that AM hasted itself, so that added to the problem. We will probably reduce the RT time on it a bit. I am not happy with how long it is now, but it was too fast before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Geko, you are my new hero. Superdev! 
If I thought I could do a decent geko-looking head, I'd make you a micro hero like poor Stuporman here!
[ QUOTE ]
I think the reason that Rad Defenders *feel* so changed is that they are used to having a lot of endurance to burn. I'm 90% postive if I built my (dark/dark) Defender around having a lot more endurance, I'd have tweaked my powers to recharge *much* faster. As it is, that is the *last* thing I do and I can run out of endurance PDQ with just healing and having my AOE defense buff going with occasional blasts to debuff (while attacking).
[/ QUOTE ]
Endurance to burn? No no, we needed AM to have enough endurance to subsist.
[ QUOTE ]
Most AM users don't seem to think it will be possible, even fully loaded out with recycle time reducers. Indeed, I had Hasten with 1 DO recycling faster than AM with 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
He could, meaning pre-patch. Pre-patch, 3 SOs in AM = roughly 10 seconds of downtime.
Or, supposedly AM w/2 SOs + Hasten w/1 SO = one or the other always on. Although I never experience this one myself.
I agree AM does alot of things but i dont believe it should have changed any....I mean all your powers should get better and easier to use as you level or become a better hero. I understand you and your teamates should not be running around "super uber" but AM was not doing that at all. I am almost grouped with the same 4-5 guys everynight, and before the patch we were doing ok...not great but ok... we had a controler, tank, blaster and 2 defenders(myself included). I have to tell you we were not taking on things that were anymore then yellow or reds to us as the groups wouls squash us if we did not think strategically. (this included the use of AM). We were not "immune to all things", we were not getting "massive" damage added...and the only thing good about the run enchancment was we could bolt out of danger quicker. Finally no matter what anyone says the endurace buff was not enough to keep us all full...infact even with the BUFF we were all still running out of END before the fights were even over.....And before you say oh you can get the recharge time down to being able to stack...this may be so but not till you have it full of (SO) enchancments.And you dont get those till your higher up which makes it ok as you have worked your butt off to get to this level and should be able to come close to stacking your own BUFFs.
Sorry for grammar and spelling.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the reason that Rad Defenders *feel* so changed is that they are used to having a lot of endurance to burn. I'm 90% postive if I built my (dark/dark) Defender around having a lot more endurance, I'd have tweaked my powers to recharge *much* faster. As it is, that is the *last* thing I do and I can run out of endurance PDQ with just healing and having my AOE defense buff going with occasional blasts to debuff (while attacking).
[/ QUOTE ]
Endurance to burn? No no, we needed AM to have enough endurance to subsist.
[/ QUOTE ]
If Geko has stated that the endurance costs are within the same range as other defenders, then I can believe it is for the most part. Did you read what I actually said that it could be a *perception* that they run out more, because of how they built their Defender?
There is a massive thread in the General Forum where ALL Defenders complain about being out of endurance on an ongoing basis.
Under construction
[ QUOTE ]
There is a massive thread in the General Forum where ALL Defenders complain about being out of endurance on an ongoing basis.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've heard a lot of scrappers, tankers and blasters say the same thing too. We always want more endurance. Like Geko said (new and improved: GEKO SAYS!, I'm paraphrasing from memory) endurance is the *most* powerful ability.
[ QUOTE ]
For those that haven't read the EULA of this or any other online game, it does state that content is subject to change. An online game is not Static! It is Dynamic! It can and will change as needed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Change is good, and fine, but when things are made worse, brought below par, in some areas, they must also be raised in other areas, so that the characters are still at par. This was a change that reduced too many builds toworthlessness, without providing any remedy to that.
[ QUOTE ]
Umm.. put down the crack pipe and seek professional help guy. Just because scrappers "are fast" like you said and attack fast, that DOES NOT mean that you should be able to constantly without any pause at all keep attacking that fast and with that much damage without any drawbacks at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
When did I say no drawbacks at all? I have a whole thread about possible drawbacks they could add to Hasten. I have no trouble with Hasten having drawbacks, my only problem is that "downtime" is the ONE totally unacceptible drawback. The powers must work all the time, and with few enhancement slots. EVERYTHING else is up for debate.
[ QUOTE ]
What I said was that the bored L40s (mostly Blasters) are playing Scrappers because Scrappers are actually hard to play/underpowered, which is a total switch for them compared to their mains...
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, my bad. I thought you were implying the opposite was true. 
[ QUOTE ]
I think this game would be kinda silly, if you did not need 6 slots to max out a power. What would be the use of having 6 slots?
[/ QUOTE ]
They give you 49 slots between 20 powers. You can only max out 9 of them, which leaves one more with 5 slots, and the rest with none, UNLESS you short change some of them. Primary attacks deserve 6 slots. Primary defenses deserve six slots, some travel powers and support abilities deserve maybe 4 slots, but Hasten has never been strong enough to justify allocating 5 of your free slots to it.
Now, if you REALLY want to allocate 6 slots to it, you always could. Slot them with endurance enhancements and you can get the costs REALLY low. (not positive it can take endurance enhancements, but it should, since ti costs endurance).
PS, Geko, if you're still reading this thread, please tell us what, exactly, the regen is on Quickness, there's been a lot of debate on this, and its relative worth vs. Hasten for recharge buffing. I suspect based on anecdotal evidence from having and using both powers that it's fairly high, but others have claimed that it's negligable and therefore would be unbalanced vs. an always on Hasten.
Hasten, Im okay with
it was (is) a very powerful ability and Im fine with using it situationally i.e. boss fights and tough crowds.
The nerf to AM makes me sad
very sad. I would personally consider hasten the more powerful ability, but AM takes significantly longer to recharge it seems.
Id be completely satisfied if there was a short downtime for AM (i.e. Im okay with not having a constant AM effect going, at least solo), but making it even MORE situational than Hasten is pretty dang sucky. People arent kidding when they say it takes so long to recharge you forget its even there.
Well, those are my two cents
I know the devs are looking into reducing the timer on AM
I just hope its enough to un-nerf the radiation powerset. Endurance for me is a huge problem now (ice/rad controller)
I find I have to stop to catch my breath quite a bit, even when hunting blues
Also, I know this was an issue before that after Hasten wore off it would reset the recharge on other skills that werent ready
is this still the case? I dont know if its my imagination, but it still seemed to be the case last night (could very well have been my imagination since AMs downtime was depressingly lengthy )
Can anyone please confirm?
[ QUOTE ]
I've heard a lot of scrappers, tankers and blasters say the same thing too. We always want more endurance. Like Geko said (new and improved: GEKO SAYS!, I'm paraphrasing from memory) endurance is the *most* powerful ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you play the game at all? It is very easy when teamed to see which characters are always the lowest on endurance.
Under construction
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What it comes down to is any FOTM will get mashed. Scrappers and radiation def/cont took it this round as their "need to have to be competative" powers got spanked.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this part of your post... Scrappers and Defenders definitely weren't a FOTM, ever. Almost every scrapper I've played with switched to Blaster instead, and aside from myself, one Kinetics guy (who frequently says he hates it because he spends all his time casting Speed Boost over and over and over, but doesn't want to reroll), and a couple Empaths, none of our Defenders are left either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Was making a reference to the fact that the Devs killed the "must have power" to make 40 in 2 weeks. Why double check high end balance for power levelers when you can just gimp every one else?
And for the switching to blaster no thanks. If I want to mindlesly blast things i'll play a FPS atleast there you get to see a little blood.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've heard a lot of scrappers, tankers and blasters say the same thing too. We always want more endurance. Like Geko said (new and improved: GEKO SAYS!, I'm paraphrasing from memory) endurance is the *most* powerful ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you play the game at all? It is very easy when teamed to see which characters are always the lowest on endurance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, usually me in the big fights where I need to blast and use all of my buff/debuffs.
(Sheesh, put that in the wrong place.)
[ QUOTE ]
They give you 49 slots between 20 powers. You can only max out 9 of them, which leaves one more with 5 slots, and the rest with none, UNLESS you short change some of them. Primary attacks deserve 6 slots. Primary defenses deserve six slots, some travel powers and support abilities deserve maybe 4 slots, but Hasten has never been strong enough to justify allocating 5 of your free slots to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is the core of the issue. I think we purposefully don't get enough enhancement slots to 6-slot everything. This way, we're forced to choose which powers are our best, our mainstays. Even beyond which powers you did or did not choose, which powers you put your slots in define your character.
And one more comment on Hasten. Not trying to flame here, or anything like that. But, if you used to be able to get the absolute maximum benefit from Hasten with only 2 slots (since the effect never increased, and at 2 slots/SOs you could always have it on) what's the point of having an option to put 6 slots in it? What other power in the entire game doesn't gain something (maybe not much, but something) by adding those last 4 slots? I can't think of one. Why should Hasten be any different?
[ QUOTE ]
So, with that said, let me give you my 10 Commandments of Geko:
*I will always listen to the community (that goes for the boards, in game, and thru mining data and statistics).
*I will not be scared to be wrong.
*I will react as quickly as possible, but not sooner than needed.
*I will not be scared to be unpopular.
*I will not make a change to the game simply because it is popular.
*I will do my best to continue to make this game fun.
*I will not intentionally stealth nerf.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great post geko. I really like the commandments. Please, please keep them in mind while you guys make CoV, especially the part about continuing to keep the game fun. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders and controllers rely on AM for the one attribute you failed to mention, endurance regen. How bout removing the run speed, flight speed, damage add, and then reduce the time recharge back some ?
Read thru the 30 posts on people complaining about the AM adjustment, i dont see a single one complaining about loss of run speed, flight speed, or damage increase. Pretty much every thread is the loss of endurance regen for normal fighting, ans some for the haste effect . Its now used only for a boss fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I actualy had that, and accidently edited it out. But that is a very significant part of the power. But that sorta is my point. AoE END REcovery is very powerfull. Only Emapthy has another AoE Recovery boost, and its the second to last power and has a 500 second recahrge. Nothing is more powerful than END. It is probably more important than HP. That is what makes AM so powerfull, and why its recharge was increased. Other defenders dont have that advantage. It was unbalanced. But again, the RT tie will be reduced, but not to the way to used to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone else hear the nerf bat swinging toward stamina? 
Geko recently posted that they don't foresee stamina being altered any time soon...
(Thanks Geko)
[ QUOTE ]
I love the game and have no issues with the changes from the last patch, 
But this caught my eye 
[ QUOTE ]
*I will not make a change to the game simply because it is popular.
[/ QUOTE ]
This statement is rubbing me wrong, Ive been sitting here for about a half hour trying to state my feelings on this one, yet cant find the right words to not offend anyone.
It just feels like your saying, I will listen to what the mass's want, but just because most of the player base "most of the people paying to play' wants something, i wont give it to them. No compromises, Just a flat out Your out of Luck
Then its followed by,
[ QUOTE ]
*I will do my best to continue to make this game fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
How can you do this by denying what the magority of the people playing the game want?
Im sure im just reading your post incorrectly and appoligize in advance, just would love some insight into this.
[/ QUOTE ]
The reason why Gecko says he won't make changes just because their "popular" is that the majority of gamers almost 100% of the time don't know what's good for their own enjoyment or the game as a whole. Many other devs have made changes to game because it was the popular change to make, to have it backfire. What Gecko says is completely on the mark.
Regardless of what happens with AM and haste, I firmly believe (and this is supported by a lot of what has been stated on this thread) that people that rad/rad defenders with AM/Haste are broken and should get a full respec.
Full respec code should be given top priority in development and made available for characters that get broken by 'Severe Nerfs'.
Click on the link in my sig for my argument and support of full respecs.