Regarding recent changes
By
AbuliaDon,
Posted on: 2004-05-13 19:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Thank you Geko. Just... thank you 
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Defenders and controllers rely on AM for the one attribute you failed to mention, endurance regen. How bout removing the run speed, flight speed, damage add, and then reduce the time recharge back some ?
Read thru the 30 posts on people complaining about the AM adjustment, i dont see a single one complaining about loss of run speed, flight speed, or damage increase. Pretty much every thread is the loss of endurance regen for normal fighting, ans some for the haste effect . Its now used only for a boss fight.
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Yes, I actualy had that, and accidently edited it out. But that is a very significant part of the power. But that sorta is my point. AoE END REcovery is very powerfull. Only Emapthy has another AoE Recovery boost, and its the second to last power and has a 500 second recahrge. Nothing is more powerful than END. It is probably more important than HP. That is what makes AM so powerfull, and why its recharge was increased. Other defenders dont have that advantage. It was unbalanced. But again, the RT tie will be reduced, but not to the way to used to be.
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Actually... If you look at the relative power costs, other defenders already do have the advantage of AM 'built in'. Radiation Buff/Debuff has two of the most expensive toggles in the game, toggles which have to be kept up for multiple rounds and cannot have their END costs predicted ahead of time. Slots which are dedicated to END reduction can not be used for other purposes, such as making the power more effective.
As such, I believe that Radiation Buff/Debuff users are the victims of their own 'better than average' buff.
geko-
I hate to sound like a broken record, but you have not yet commented on the findings of many players concerning the new Hasten timer. We all appreciate your willingness to break down your reasoning to us, and many of us would like to hear what your investigation of the new Hasten has turned up.
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Defenders and controllers rely on AM for the one attribute you failed to mention, endurance regen. How bout removing the run speed, flight speed, damage add, and then reduce the time recharge back some ?
Read thru the 30 posts on people complaining about the AM adjustment, i dont see a single one complaining about loss of run speed, flight speed, or damage increase. Pretty much every thread is the loss of endurance regen for normal fighting, ans some for the haste effect . Its now used only for a boss fight.
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Yes, I actualy had that, and accidently edited it out. But that is a very significant part of the power. But that sorta is my point. AoE END REcovery is very powerfull. Only Emapthy has another AoE Recovery boost, and its the second to last power and has a 500 second recahrge. Nothing is more powerful than END. It is probably more important than HP. That is what makes AM so powerfull, and why its recharge was increased. Other defenders dont have that advantage. It was unbalanced. But again, the RT tie will be reduced, but not to the way to used to be.
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Haven't read the rest of this thread yet, but, Geko, my opinion of you has gone up considerably now that you have explained a little as to why AM got the change it did.
I am sure most people really just wanted some sort of appeasement to know why something got nerfed. What may seem an obvious reason to you is not always obvious to someone else.
Thumbs up.
On the AM change, bottom-line, I'm sitting around waiting a LOT more of the time for my endurance to regenerate than I was pre-patch. Sitting around waiting just isn't fun. And having the base, unenhanced recharge at 11:15 for AM is simply too much, but it appears from Geko's posts that will change at some point (albeit not back to the original 5 minutes).
Thanks for the update, G. Hoping for AM re-changes soonish rather than laterish.
mhoram, thats just the point.
the game was fun, the nerfs came, the game was less fun.
can the people saying this change was nessacary actually say the game was less fun for them when hasten worked as it did before? why? how did hasten ruin the game for you? and how has its change made the game better? so far all i see is game before = ppl having fun. game after nerf = lotsa ppl having less fun.
Geko - great post. If you and the rest of the team can keep up this excellent level of communication with us players, CoH has a very bright future, imho 
Please, though, don't listen to the knee-jerk whines and complaints of those players who clearly have no grasp of even the most basic concepts of game balance and game design, no matter how loudly they may shout... And try to remember, when struggling through the complaints, that the majority of people who are happy with the game and any changes you make won't be posting - they'll be busy having fun playing... 
Geko, you da MAN! *loudly applauds one of his favorite devs ever!*
Geko, thanks bigtime for all the replies regarding the recent changes.
I was wondering if you and the other devs have considered some of the other proposed AM 'fixes'? For example: reducing the damage increase, runspeed increase, etc while keeping the endurance recovery as is. Also, reducing the stackability (eliminating or having additional 'stacks' be less effective), making self only not AoE, etc.
I've probably got roughly 10 hours of gametime under my belt since the patch, and still have huge problems with running out of endurance almost immediately (lvl18 illusion/radiation controller).
Thanks again, and if you have the time for another reply it's greatly appreciated.
Gator
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I see nothing wrong with Rad Blast and RAd Emmision END cost. It is comperable to all other sets, and identicle to their counterparts on others sets.
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Rad blast is fine, but lets take a look at rad emission
Radiant aura 26.5 end.. thats over 1/4 for a weak heal allright its a group heal but its much less than o2 boost or any empathy
Rad inf and enervate are fine
Mutation 56!!!!
Lingering Rad 22.5
Chocking cloud is hard to use and fallout is useless but their end is reasonable
Em pulse 30
About half their powers take 1/4 or More end to use. It might look fine on paper when you compare it to other classes Def prim
but in reality having so many end hogs in one spot really kills it without Am running near constant.
Please consider this when readjusting it, right now rad em is almost unplayable. This is a Primary for many characters having the skill take so long to recharge for something they are so dependant upon is very hard on those people has led to many character deletions and I have even heard a few times groups saying they didnt want rad defenders any more cause they jjust run out of end then leech exp.
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I see nothing wrong with Rad Blast and RAd Emmision END cost. It is comperable to all other sets, and identicle to their counterparts on others sets.
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So you are saying that defenders don't get a 25-30% end boost on their blast sets or that all secondaries cost 25-30% more end?
If you are saying that defenders don't pay more end when did that change happen? The extra end cost is in the Game Guide which means it was true at one point. If it isn't true now when did the change happen? I never saw any patch note about it. Also experience is showing that there is a higher end cost. If you are saying that there isn't a higher end cost for defenders then could you check the numbers?
If you just mean it Rad Blast is eqivalent to other defender blast power sets with the extra end cost then could you answer why it, the extra end cost, was put in?
Geko, thank you very much for the response. Your willingness to come talk to us is admirable.
Regarding the AM changes specifically:
1) It is the only buff power in a buff/debuff power set; it should be an incredibly good buff. It should make people go "wow".
2) The net effect of this change is that I have more downtime. I sit around waiting for endurance to come back more often. I have fewer fights per hour. I have less fun per hour. More downtime is not fun.
3) I wasn't a super-fast levelling machine before, and I doubt very many Defenders and Controllers were (well, maybe some Controllers after they get pets). The ultimate standard for whether a power is unbalanced should be whether it causes people to level at abnormally high speeds. Am I wrong, and your data mining shows a flood of Defenders and Controllers steamrolling to 40 because of their super duper AM buff?
4) Making a power have a super long refresh time is much worse for player morale than changing its effect. Right now, I can use the power so rarely that I sometimes forget to use it at all. The magnitude of the effect simply does not justify that kind of recharge timer. I'd suggest reducing the benefits in exchange for making it useable more often, except that I don't think the current timer is at all justified, so I don't feel we should have to give up effects to get a reasonable timer back from you. 
I agree. I have absolutely no problem with my rad blast costs. They seem comparable with any other character I have. As long as I don't go buff/heal crazy in a battle, I can pretty much blast until I run dry and feel satisfied.
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I see nothing wrong with Rad Blast and RAd Emmision END cost. It is comperable to all other sets, and identicle to their counterparts on others sets.
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Oh cool. I didn't know precisely how good Stamina was or was not. I have a scrapper friend who's drooling to unlock that power.
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There is not present plan to modify Stamina. It takes 14 levels, and 2 powers to unlock stamina. Then it takes 2 DO enhancements for Staminas END Recovery buff to be as effective for one player as AM gives to your whole team. Yes it is Auto, but it stil does not give all the other buffs AM does.
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...who clearly have no grasp of even the most basic concepts of game balance and game design, no matter how loudly they may shout...
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So its game balance that I spend half my time sitting around waiting for end to regen? Do you spend half your time sitting around waiting for end?
Thanks Geko! This post is very timely and I just wanted to say I think you guys are doing an excellent job of responding and listening.
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Geko is officially my new hero.
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Mine too. You da man (er, lizard) Geko!
Well Geko,
Thanks for the posts Geko! I have a couple major concerns, problems whatever you want to call them. Basically my Fun is gone and here are the things that led up to it.
1. Name reservation - Stated we would get to reserve our names. Its not the fact that I didn't get my name, its the whole process that inhibited me from getting my name. Very Poorly implemented.
2. 3-day Headstart - You give pre-order members a 3 day headstart, but then they have 2 days of downtime (or more) trying to find the game. No grace period given to people who have ALREADY paid you. Very Poor customer service. I found my copy at a Best Buy the day after so I wasn't one that had to wait, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
3. Uncalled for nerfs- Hasten I can understand, Fire imps understood, Accelerated metabolism NOT A JUSTIFIED CHANGE. My charactor is level 21, and hasn't been played for more than 15 minutes a time after the recent patch. Anyone that has Accelerated Metabolism is now gimped. Not that the buff itself is bad, but the fact that you could have something else there, a heal an attack ANYTHING that isn't a 8+ minute recharge.
4. Results of nerf - Well this is where my distaste for the 3 day headstart came from. I was sure to pay you for the preorder so that I could start my character early, make sure I had everything how I wanted for release. I understand powers change in MMO's, notice I said change not nerfed into uselessness entirely. I got a 3 day headstart and a 1 MONTH SETBACK. I'm so very glad I bought the preorder because I really needed the cardboard box? Really tho there was nothing in that box that was even remotely interesting.
I wonder did SOE buy Cryptic Studios? I feel like I'm getting treated the same. I have numerous petitions I've yet to recieve any kind of response to, I'm being nerfed 10% of my total powers. I don't feel like I'm fighting crime anymore as much as fighting poor developer descisions;uncalled for nerfs and fanbois and whiners all the same.
I really enjoyed this game, all thru beta and all month until the poor rollout of the last patch. No information given, no discussion of what the devs feel was overpowered or wasn't.
I don't want to leave this game, I really think there is fun to be had here. All in all I can't place full blame on the devs, most nerfs stem from the forums. Hell take a look at SWG.
I think that the best thing that could happen to an MMO would be the absence of forums.
Now before you tell me to leave and the game will be better without me this is FEEDBACK. Its presented in a civil manner. I am a paying customer and I feel its not only my right, but its also my duty to tell the developers why I'm probably done at the end of this month. The fun is gone the fear is here, Please please please bring back fun!
Thanks for the response Geko, dev feedback is always a good sign whatever is said
However, as for changing the game to make it more fun, do you really think that the Rad defenders and the people who had the pre-nerf Hasten are having more, or less fun in game these days? 
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Geko is officially my new hero.
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Mine too. You da man (er, lizard) Geko!
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Geko for president!!!
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? Strip all other effects off of AM, and let us buff the Endurance regeneration of our party, all the time (at low levels).
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When Empathy Defenders/Controllers can't do that with Recovery Aura except possibly by using Hasten and a total of 12 S/O Recharge at +3 levels? I can't remember if it has a 120 or 90 seconds duration, you can reduce the recharge to about 120 seconds (if I'm using the correct formula and geko has given the correct numbers).
Besides the part of AM that will keep you alive when solo at the higher levels isn't so much the endurance regeneration as the status effect resistance. I wouldn't complain if AM lost the recharge bonus and had it's base timer lowered to 500 seconds (same as Recovery Aura) though.
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? Don?t make powers, even really good powers, dependant on 6 of the best enhancements that game can offer just to use them frequently.
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If it's the only enhancement that power takes it should take 6 +3 S/O to reach maximum efficiency, otherwise it's possible to waste slots/enhancements. Hasten can be used frequently, but not kept always on, with 6 S/O even level Recharge.
Glad to see AM will get a little faster. I have a pretty boring amount of downtime without it.
I personally don't find 120/720 skills very fun. I have no problem with powers I get at level 4 taking 20 levels to fully mature, but I want to be able to enjoy them in the interim.
Especially with Hasten, whos problem was that it only needed one extra enhancement slot, I would rather have seen its effectiveness reduced, not the percentage of up-time. Hasten could have been a toggle skill, and enhancers could have buffed its buff. This would bring it in line with the leadership buffs, but for recharge speed.
I don't understand why geko would say, "Other defenders dont have that advantage." The defenders are very different from each other, why should it be at all surprising that one defender skillset would have an advantage others do not? Isn't that WHY there are different defender skillsets?
"I see nothing wrong with Rad Blast and RAd Emmision END cost. It is comperable to all other sets, and identical to their counterparts on others sets."
Well, it's possible for Rad Emission's endurance costs to be comparable to similar powers in other sets ... and still be unbalanced and too big of an endurance drain.
Let me explain. A rad defender's bread-and-butter powers are his toggle targeted AOE debuffs, specifically Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. Now if I counted correctly, there are a grand total of six toggle targeted AOE primary powers in the game:
Snow Storm (storm defender): endurance cost 1.5 per tick
Hot Feet (fire controller): endurance cost 3.0
Telekinesis (mind controller): endurance cost 3.0
Radiation Infection (rad defender): endurance cost 1.0
Enervating Field (rad defender): endurance cost 3.0
Choking Cloud (rad defender): endurance cost 6.0
As you can see, fully half of the primary toggle targeted AOE powers in the game belong to rad defenders This raises a couple of possibilities.
First, perhaps the endurance costs for all or some of the toggle targeted AOE powers are too high, but only rad defenders have really focused on it because they are the ones with most of the toggle targeted AOE powers. (For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that Radiation Infection is fine-the low endurance cost makes up for the crazy long activation animation-but Enervating Field is too high. Don't know about Choking Cloud, because the huge endurance cost and the lukewarm player reviews have convinced me I don't want to take it.)
The other possibility is that the endurance cost of 3 for Hot Feet and Telekinesis is fine because they are the only toggle targeted AOE powers in their power sets ... but that 3 for Enervating Field is not so good because it's typically used in conjuction with with another endurance-sucking toggle power, Radiation Infection. For example, I will often Enervating Field the toughest mob, then when he's defeated immediately switch to Radiation Infection for the minions.
Now I can already hear the objections-"If using those two powers in succession is too draining, then don't do it! Use your other powers instead!" But really, what powers am I supposed to use in a fight? Here's what I have at the moment:
1. Radiation Infection and Enervating Field, the toggle debuffs.
2. Accelerate Metabolism. With the recharge rate upped, this is grayed out and unavailable more often than not.
3. Radiant Aura, a heal. This is costly, and I don't want to use it if I don't have to...it makes no sense to drain my endurance dry just to keep everyone at exactly 100%. So if things are going well, this is not terribly useful.
4. Mutate, a combat rez. Also very costly, and again, if things are going well, this is of no use to me (thank goodness.)
5. My blasts. But using my blasts is by definition also a huge endurance drain. Defender blasts not only do less damage than a blaster's blasts (which everyone agrees is as it should be), they also consume more endurance per point of damage than a blaster's blasts. Only defenders are subject to this extra endurance penalty on secondary powers: no other archetype has it. So using my blasts taps me out very quickly.
With the change in AM, as a teen-level rad defender about the only power I can use constantly in a fight that doesn't drain me dry is Brawl.
Ediit: Whoops, on my list of toggle targeted AOE powers I forgot Darkest Night (cost 1.5).
Thanks, Geko. I'm especially glad to see that you're considering making AM/Hasten a little more reasonable than they are now.
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Hasten needs to be on ALL the time, and it must do so with few enhancements. If you do not feel it's balanced as is, I have a thread going that lists possible compromises, but Hasten MUST be constantly active, regardless of the performance costs. The power is not useless, nbut it is simply not worth it as it is.
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Umm.. put down the crack pipe and seek professional help guy. Just because scrappers "are fast" like you said and attack fast, that DOES NOT mean that you should be able to constantly without any pause at all keep attacking that fast and with that much damage without any drawbacks at all.
It's absurd to say that Hasten must be available all the time.