magikwand
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Posts
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Quote:Now there is an idea I could throw some support behind. It might even work the same way that vigilance works. That is, the more your team's health slips, the quicker your powers recharge as a defender. It would make more sense to me than giving an endurance discount as the team drops into the red, and it would also give the defender more of a chance to fix whatever might be ailing their party.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
This is a side conversation obviously but IMO the issue with Defenders is that Recharge Time and Buff Durations are not stats that are adjusted favorably for the AT the way Buff and Debuff Values are. The thing with most of the buff sets is that it's the presence of the buff, not the strength of it, that makes it good.
Most buff sets have key powers that are limited by recharge rate or buff duration. If we gave all Defender primary powers a discount to Recharge Time across all powers, and a duration boost, Defenders would be much more sought after in general.
Undoubtedly someone will find a set or two that wouldn't benefit as much from that change, but that's the way it is with all of the inherent powers (some Control sets are better at Containment, etc). -
Quote:I thought you wanted the threat lvl from the tank to be considered +1 and not just the defense and resistance. In that scenario, the tank could quite possibly prevent the brute from getting much rise out of his fury bar.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I don't understand how a Tanker treated as +1 level for defense and resistance affects Brute's fury generation. I may not have explained clearly, but my suggestion was only that Tankers be treated as if they were one level higher than they actually are when determining their defense and resistance.
In any event, I still think your suggestion is unnecessary. The problem that most people have with tankers can be many things, but I don't recall anyone except for you suggesting that they aren't tough enough. The last thing tankers need in the game is to have more defense and resistance added in hopes it will give them more value. In much of the game, that lvl of survivability turns out to be excessive. Particularly when it is achieved at the expense of damage output. -
Quote:What exactly would be the benefit of that? I could understand why a brute would love such a power, as it would get him more fury, but why would a tank want such?Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm in the minority in this thread, but I would like to see Tankers get a slight lift to keep them competitive. The way I'd like to go about it is a little different than the normal cap method, though.
Personally, what I'd like to see is the Tanker's Gauntlet power expanded so that it causes the Tanker to be appraised as one level higher than his or her actual level when calculating defense and resistance against an attacker. The Tankers maximum defense and resistance would still be 95%/90% to any attack, but a level 50 Tanker would be treated as if s/he was level 51 when defending against an attack. This way, Tankers get a noticeable advantage, but only when fighting higher level enemies (IMO the real situation where a Tanker should outshine other ATs anyway), and that advantage is available both for Tankers who are capped and those who aren't, all the way from level 1.
Not to mention that such a power would cause issues for fury generation for brutes if they team with tankers post GR. I don't believe there will be any way to give tankers "more" aggro control without causing some pretty hardy balance issues in the process. -
Quote:Sorry, but brutes are not like scrappers. The only thing the two have in common is that they are melee combatants with a few shared powersets. When was the last time you played a brute and followed someone's pets around? I guess you like doing sub par damage then. Avoiding aggro is probably one of the last things you want to do when playing a brute. If you want to skulk around and not draw aggro while playing melee, a stalker is much more fitting.Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
Rubbish... I have played my (main) mm for 5 years now. I am strong enough to solo +0/8 members and AV's. And I can control my zombs. If they run away... the resulting extra aggro is just my next target.
The brute should learn to follow the pets as the pets are meant to be the aggo takers. That is how the AT is designed. The Brutes are like scrappers.
If a team is that childish to keep away the MM AT for other reasons then half the team having ancient computers... they don't know the value of a MM.
And yes.. I take the Alpha on my MM. A Fearsome Stare... A Tar Patch... full frontal assault including myself and a Howling Twilight for 19 second stunn and the mob is gone before any alpha is dealt.
Also, the intention of MMs to be the sole aggro takers of Villains was abandoned years ago when the devs realized that brutes performed the function much more efficiently than expected. Don't forget that many people who play MMs seem to forget that pets can be resummoned and that bodyguard mode even exists. To add to that thought, a brute generates 400% taunt with each attack he lands. With effects like that, please don't tell me that a brute is not supposed to aggro things.
On topic:
As far as MMs go, yes, I am occasionally annoyed by them for many reasons already listed. Teams with more than one are just irritating because there are just far too many bodies running around and cluttering everything up.
In my eyes, when someone plays a MM and has no clue what they are doing, the effects are oft times more notable and more detrimental to the team. It takes a steady and attentive hand to keep a leash on a MM with a degree of efficacy. Most MMs I encounter are just the summon and turn 'em loose type. I can't stand those. -
Quote:You, my friend, have a strange sense of what is considered to be awful. Most of those powers are just great in my book.Originally Posted by Gorgar
Stamina
Phantom Army
Freezing Rain
Fearsome Stare
Fortitude -
Group Fly. Worst. Power. Ever.
Accuracy debuff? No thanks. Not so much as a prompt to opt in or out? No thanks. -
Quote:Generalize much? I have seen some poorly built examples of each AT, including tanks. I have seen blasters do things that defy explanation, and some that were made of glass. The same goes for tanks. With that said, you should never assume someone doesn't have a very steady and finely tuned control over what their toon can do.Originally Posted by Coldmed
im sorry what?..i was too busy cleaning my empath badge i got from saving scrappers for the last 6 years i didnt hear what you said
oh and btw its the general concept of tanks to sponge the hits by going in first and controlling aggro.kinda been like that since 2004 iirc..thats why they have taunt and gaunlet and scrappers dont.
As for the role of the tank- I don't argue that he is built for absorbing hits and controlling aggro. I never said or implied that scrappers have gauntlet. But don't tell me that the only way a spawn can be opened up is via the hand of a tank. Certain control sets are just as capable of locking down mobs before they even have the chance to attack. The beauty of this game is that there are many ways to skin the cat, so to speak. -
Quote:Who says the role of the scrapper, or anyone, is to wait for the tank to do everything? Even if the scrapper is as tough as the tank, they still serve two distinctly different roles. A tanker tanks, and a scrapper flips out and kills stuff. Sometimes they will wait, sometimes they don't. I just hope any toon that runs off from the group can handle whatever aggro he pulls up to and including the tank.Originally Posted by Coldmed
i dont tend to play with scrappers cause the general thought nowadays is scrappers rule the game blah blah blah. can take more hits then a tank blah blah can outdamage tanks yadda yadda yadda
if the scrapper doesnt wanna play with the team...ask him to please come back.if hes being a dick...kick the guy off the team.
ive said it a 100 times over...id rather play with a stalker ANYDAY then a scrapper cause at least they know their role and playing as a team isnt hard.but for some reason people who play scrappers and not tanks cant get a handle on it as easy as the rest. -
Quote:Oh- thanks for the clarificationOriginally Posted by FireWyvern
My post was meant to be sarcastic, and to show how bad it would be to let tankers( or any AT) decide for someone else when he's in over his head and to alter his play-style so drasticaly.
I totally aggree with what you said, and i don't believe vet badges to be an absolute rules. I was just fallowing New Dawn's logic. =)
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Sarrate answered your questions pretty handily, but I will just stress one point from question 4. Some of your trouble with holding aggro may come from the fact that your secondary is arguably the most Single target focused option available to tanks outside of Dark Melee. AoE attacks, Gauntlet, and Taunt are great tools for establishing and maintaining aggro over a group of enemies. While your taunt aura and taunt power are great tools, punchvoke (or attacks dealt to an enemy by a tanker) are another great source of generating threat and keeping baddies focused on you. If you don't have this, a high dmg dealing squishy is quite capable of irritating the baddy to the point of peeling aggro off of you.
If you are using a ST set like em, and want to make sure you are the life of the party, try changing targets often. Sure, you may end up bouncing off of the aggro cap occasionally, but it might be one of the only ways to spread out some punchvoke loving to a spawn of baddies. -
Quote:I must question your logic that presumes a large quantity of veteran badges is synonymous with experience. I can't tell you how many times I have found this to be untrue. Sometimes the people who have a great handle on their toon might surprise you to have far fewer veteran badges than you might expect. It is a fun game I play- try to judge by an avatar's behavior how many vet badges they have. I have learned that you simply can't judge. It is very nearly unpredictable.Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Then a suggest they make a "ally phase" power for controller, defender, corruptor and mastermind. This way, "when needed" the support character could put any teamate out of danger. Even the tanker if he "feel" he can't handle the aggro.
If we make it a vet power, no problem, since the support character will be experienced. =)
Let's not forget that some people have even purchased accounts from friends or complete strangers. Or, that sometimes account holders will allow friends to play who have no clue what they are really doing.
And again, I think a power that would involuntarily phase me just because someone else feels I am in over my head is wholly unwelcome. It is bad enough that someone can make you invisible without you approving of it, but to go beyond that is just inordinate.
I will vote an explicit no to vet powers that would alter the playing experience of other subscribers in the nature you and others have described in this thread. -
Quote:Your point is taken, Dawn, however the thought of my brute being forced to play around with a fury bar only filled to a quarter or less is problematic to say the least. At least scrappers don't need fury to generate respectable damage. Even now, if I find myself teamed with more than two other brutes on a team, I would rather grab a different toon. So, yeah, unless you want to give me a spike in my base damage so that it remains viable and rewarding when there are taunt bot tankers hoarding aggro away from my brutes, I don't believe this will work at all.Originally Posted by New Dawn
Yes you might be able to handle it but it could be a scenario that is best handled a different way for the sake of others. Given your input I wouldn't disagree to a vet reward power that allows a Tanker to force aggro when needed as atleast its in the hopes that an experienced Tanker would have it when playing with a not so experienced Brute.
You also pose another potentially disturbing question. How dare you- even if you do have 63 veteran badges and I only have 3- make the call that I can't handle my aggro? Giving anyone this kind of power in game is frightening. That isn't even mentioning the fact that vet badges do not always equal experience. The only thing veteran badges have qualitatively proven to be indicative of is how long a particular account has been subscribed to the the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Experience is not always congruent with the number of veteran badges one has. -
Quote:Quoted for truth. I am dead tired of these threads.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Give up already. Tanks will not be replaced by brutes. Tanks are not going to get a damage buff. They perform different functions.
Stop asking loaded questions.
Stop making pointless suggestions.
Stop trolling. -
Quote:The cap for damage for these pets is substantially lower for brutes than it is for scrappers. Nihili already summed up my thoughts on which combo you should roll. Besides, SS isn't for scrappers just yet, so make a monster brute and start slaying!Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano
Don't the Brute and Scrapper versions of SC summon the same pseudopet? (And do the same amount of base damage?) Or is the info on City of Data out-of-date/incorrect?
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I have only, and will only be making a dp corr and blaster. This is because I just don't see the point in making defenders anymore. Not saying anything is wrong with em, but I just prefer corrs. That, and the only defender that is stayin on my home server is my empath.
Yes, the damage is lower initially than some other sets, but I don't think it is as bad as most people keep perpetuating. No, it doesn't knock Fire blast off of its perch, but it doesn't feel as slow as electrical blast, so I am pleased.
I still don't understand everyone's gripe about redraw affecting actual performance. Sure, it may not be the smoothest thing in the game, but I don't think it has any bearing on how quickly one is able to call up powers that aren't in the DP set.
I have a DP/kin and a DP/Energy. The blaster hasn't been played at all, but the corr is progressing nicely in her late 20s now. As for the person saying that blasters will undoubtedly solo faster- if anything the buff/debuff gained from corrs and defenders will certainly make things more equitable than one might think. Not saying that the blaster gets the short end of the stick and will be the slowest, but don't underestimate the value of a debuff either. -
Quote:I have heard brutes called many things, but to call a brute a blapper is just wrong. A blapper is a blaster that plays like a scrapper. In no way is a brute, that has stronger defensive capability than a scrapper, like a blaster.Originally Posted by Dr_HR
Taunt...if a tank or brute hasnt got taunt and no form of pbaoe/aoe taunt then i class them as noobs.
most brutes/tanks only need 3 power pools at best- some form on travel (2 powers)-fittness set (3 powers) and fighting set (3 powers), ok in the fighting set you dont have you use box or punch or w.t ever it is, or kick just slotting it with a single acc/end or acc/stun etc IO is good enough (i got it on my brute)
Most brutes/tanks take all if not 8 out of the 9 secondary powers and normally skip 2 powers or 1 from the primary and slotting them right= awesome.
TAUNT while is optional- is highly sort by any team. the idea of a tank or brute is to tank basically, while brutes do more damage then tanks.
So heres the question really: if you got no tank in a team..but u have a brute..but you dont expect to tank with it...whos going to protect the team? the scrapper-but hes not a tank and rarely will be one. Brutes are basically the villain form of a tank.
also. ive found if you slot taunt 6 times..u get a nice 3. something defence...which is simply sexy. now i wont share my build for my fire invul or stone invul brute. but i have my very first power (the minor damage one-lvl 1) and my taunt power slotted 6 times for a nice 6+def...and ive rarely died..making me a good tanker and damage dealer in time..
Tanks are built for one thing...tanking- taking damage and giving it back over time...
brutes on the other hand can be made into two things: tank or blapper.
Tank- as above
Blapper. strong attacks-weak defence/resis
so while taunt isnt needed. any tank or brute that goes on a tf/sf is better in my books with taunt..as no-one likes a team wipe more so the squishes.
but also mainly for sure..... i'll never have you on a MO without taunt. you want pure damage..dont be the only brute/main brute as its rare to find someone who has tht perfect balance of great damage and good secondaries. (though their are sets out there that do that kind of thing).
If someone isn't available to balance the offensive and defensive nature of his brute in one build, he should reroll and think about his choices. None of my brutes have to sacrifice defensive potential to increase damage. -
In short:
A tanker focuses on being survivable and controlling aggro for the team primarily and has a lesser focus on doing damage.
A scrapper focuses on killing everything that can be targeted and is slightly less focused on survivability.
If you want to focus on being a damage dealer that is versatile, can move quickly solo, and can stack well in groups, roll a scrapper. Scrappers don't have the perceived and sometimes very real responsibility of aggro control that tankers have.
Tankers don't stack as well as scrappers, solo slower due to a lesser damage output, and being a tanker generally requires you to focus on controlling aggro. This happens at the cost of you being a carefree damage dealer like a scrapper. They are good if you want something durable, but that durability sometimes comes at the expense of other desirable qualities. -
I don't doubt the viability of a AAO saturated brute doing some hard damage with EM. I just get a bit queasy thinking about how slow it might be. Regardless, it sounds like you have hit the fun button and that is all that matters.
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If your only goal is rolling a toon that is uncommon, then go ahead and roll the EM/SD. I haven't seen many myself. I think that DM/SD is a much more synergistic pairing than EM/SD, however. DM is still ST focused, and as Tonality mentioned earlier, the -to hit debuffs are great for anyone, and especially a defense based toon. Plus, having the heal there if quite helpful for a tight build like shield if you don't care to take Aid Self.
I personally think EM is just awful. I am not able to speak on EM before the nerf, because I never rolled one at the time. So my opinion is based wholly on its current iteration. It is slow, lacks AoE, and consistent use of Energy Transfer *can* kill you. Especially if you are defense based with no means of healing yourself outside of health and inspirations. (I have a 50 EM/SR that is softcapped, IOd, and currently in storage.)
To add to that, if you plan on teaming with anyone ever, you will probably never be able to finish anything before your teammates do. The animations just take too long for my taste, and prevented me from feeling like I was contributing much use to a fast moving team. If you are solo, it might be fun, but I only felt frustration when teamed.
As far as people saying DM/SD is fotm, who cares? Sometimes, all that tells you is that the combo is just really effective. I would never be held back from making *any* combo just because someone else has it. Bottom line- there is no new combo in this game right now. Every possible pairing has been made by some player on some server at some point, so I can guarantee you that your powersets will never be wholly unique. Just thank goodness for power customization for allowing us to at least appear unique.
Sometimes, when I play my SS/SD, I go days without seeing another one. Other days, it seems like I see about 10 in a 2 hour period. On that note, I feel Elec/SD is much more Fotm than DM/SD ever was. -
Off topic: Not that I was going to neg rep you, but I can't help but notice you have disabled your reputation all of a sudden... why? I liked seeing the glowing string of red beneath your name.
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Ice Blast/Cold domination corruptor comes to mind immediately. Slows in primary and secondary stacking with some of the best debuffs in the game in the corr's secondary.
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Quote:You are certainly welcome to that perspective, and I can see the validity of it. Such a change would just take away the meat and lure of brutes, however. Fury is what makes a brute a brute.Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
From where im sitting Brutes are Scrapper/Tanker Hybrids already.
All im suggjesting is that Fury still be useful at adding damage, but to a lesser degree.I personally pick Tankers over Brutes and Scrappers because of compeltly Linear and predicatable damage.
I know how many hits its going to take a particular Tanker to kill a certain enemy after watching it happen 1-2 times.
Its also why I perfer Defenders over Blasters.I know exactly what to exspect from a Attack Chain without a blip in the performance like Brutes get with Fury.
Bottom line when it comes to my disslike of Fury, is that I perfer Predicability in my builds.Not Chaos.
Also, I don't quite understand your analogy of brutes and tankers to defenders and blasters. Blasters have no mechanic that changes their damage in an unpredictable manner. Perhaps you meant Corruptors and Defenders? -
Quote:I know this is supposed to be one wish that you would want granted, but this is just madness.Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Well, I dont like to chase the Fury Bar so much.Id want more linear damage, and less having to worry about the Fury bar.
Its the one mechanic I belive that could be changed for the better.
Up Brute damage accrossed the board, and make Fury give a smaller damage boost but enough to still have desirbaly high Fury.
Make them hit harder then Scrappers, but give them less to be concerned about when it comes to the Fury Bar.
Fury is what makes a brute a brute. If we didn't have fury, we would just be scrapper/tanker hybrids. As for the OP never experiencing fury beyond 20%- I would say you are holding back. If you don't dive into a spawn and *try* grabbing all the attention you can, you will never make the most of fury or being a brute. Picking off one mob at a time will never get your bar full up.
I never look at my fury bar. It fills up just as quickly whether you are watching it or not.
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I would kill for some more endurance management options. Call me crazy, but I think that there is truly a disparity between red and blue meleers when it comes to this issue.
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It shouldn't be something to use *every* time it is up. If you are using it too often, I would suggest revisiting your build and tweaking some things. On my shielders that have it, it is useful when I find my defense debuffed into the ground and just need a boost as far as resistance is concerned.
Most will say that this T9, like SR's Elude, is entirely skippable provided one is softcapped. The nice thing about this T9 is that it doesn't just add defense. A relatively crashless +Res T9 is great for a defense based toon if he decides to take it.