dave_p

It's only S/L def cap. I don't think you can do all, even the positionals, no matter how much you were willing to gimp everything else. Might be fun to try though, or maybe just S/L and ranged. My Invul tanker build can do E/N capped w/around 43% ranged (90% S/L resists make S/L def kinda unnecessary, tho it's up there), but that's w/Invul, and w/tank values to boot.

What I really wanna see is what you can do w/Dark armor. Even w/capped S/L defenses, Fire has a lot of holes to cover up, and you can only go so far w/just pools & IOs.

Oh, absolutely, but it wasn't *that* bad. My build's at home, but I think the biggest sacrifice I had to make was Hasten, cuz I needed Maneuvers for the last few points. You'd likely be better off sitting at 41~42% and have Hasten, but I was on a mission.

I have a DPA spreadsheet for all hero AT attacks (excepting squids) that I recently added end & recharge values for, but doing accurate* DPS calculations for varying recharge times, BU, crits, other buffs (combos, defiance), debuffs, procs (Achilles), etc, were FAR too much of a PitA, so I just did a few custom for my own needs w/specific parameters. Even that was annoying enough that I stopped after finishing my DB/WP scrapper. I really tip my hat to the guys who do dynamic DPS calculations. Fixed DPS calcs are *much* easier, but not nearly as useful.

(*As accurate as we understand the system atm, assuming the next attack starts animating 1 clock cycle after the last attack stops animating, not 2)

Since I oppose violence against deceased equines, I'll forgo the arguments as to why EM is subpar and just answer the OP's questions.

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What should and shouldn't be taken from EM?

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Take:

Energy Punch - this is your bread & butter attack. 5 or 6-slot it. Your attack chain will look like X > EP > Y > EP > Z EP. EP recharges faster and does more damage (DPA-wise) than Barrage.

Whirling Hands - this is your only AoE attack. 6-slot it, not just for Acc & Dam, but Rech too.

Energy Transfer - this is your best attack. 5 or 6-slot it. Likely 6-slot unless you're really tight for slots.

Total Focus - this is actually your 2nd best DPA attack, and its DPE is equal to Barrage, EP & BS (so don't listen to the myth that it's end-heavy--yes it is, but it evens out). 6 Slot it for both damage & stuns if you can (Perox HOs when you get to 47 are great for this).

Maybes:

Barrage - Okay, you're forced to take this, but the question is, do you slot it? Its DPA was increased a while back, but it still sucks compared to EP or BS. It recharges only a bit faster than BS. 4 or 5 slot it if you're not picking up BS, otherwise pretend you don't have the power.

Bone Smasher - If you can fit it in, it's a good part of your attack chain. Has equal (actually a hair higher) DPA to EP, but better burst & % to stun.

Taunt - Completely up to you. I only take it as an IO mule, but then I'm happy I have it.

Build Up - If you can fit it in. If you're going for a scranker build, I'd put this up as a definite take.

Skip:

Stun. You got TF as a sure, mag 3 stun. As a tank, you really don't need a 2nd one that does negligible damage.

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But what I'm getting at is this: Is EM JUST a set with above average ST damage and crappy AoE? Or does it really have utility? I don't think the set is bad... but it seems every other set can do whatever it does but better.

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You nailed it, but again, I don't wanna go into it again. Stuns have good utility, btw.

You can do that for 50M? When did Mako's get this cheap? Or the Steadfast +def? Reactive's gone up in price too, right? The -KB IOs crashed a bit ago, but I really don't think you can put this together for under 100M. Hell, just the crafting fees, not to mention the salvage, is gonna run in you in the millions. Then again, I've been out of the market for a while so maybe you could.

Still, even my own Fire/EM build w/capped S/L def (which costs a bit more than this, obv) is nowhere near as tough as a well built Granite tank, unless you're talking about Fire damage only. Plenty good enough for any TFs in the game w/the right support, but so are most well built tanks regardless of powerset. The phrase "as good as Granite" gets thrown out way too much. Until you get to capped resists & def against most types, no you're not.

Oh, I seriously have yet to have a problem w/the Reichman fight in 4 or 5 PUG runs through it. The only time we had a wipe was the very first day of I15 when no one knew what they were doing and let all 4 AVs come at us w/o taking care of them as they awoke, and we still almost got Reichman (had him at like 3% before we went down, cleaned up after hosp'ing it).

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FM/FA has the best burst damage in the game, it is also one of the higher DPS/DPE/DPA for both ST and AOE ... but is probablly not what you'll want for AV solo'in

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Unless, you know, you can get your S/L softcap. Of course, you'll fall flat against some AVs.

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If you want a kung-fu guy that does more than just kick, get other powers. AS does a lot with knockup that doesn't equate to a min/max equation.

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I can't imagine why anyone would want AS as a concept power for a MA toon. Looks like a power move, not something out of any traditional martial art. Boxing doesn't look pretty either, but at least it's a traditional punch that pretty much anyone would throw. What they really need is a one-two move, ala Barrage, but as a punch-kick combo: a quick jab followed by a kick by the lead leg.

DPA-wise (if you don't care, just skip this part), pool powers are a complete joke. CAK & EC have 70~64% higher DPA values than Boxing & AS, so yeah, you'll be "gimping" your toon somewhat. SK > CK > SK > CAK has a very good ST DPS for scrappers (SK has one of the best DPA values, period)--not sure why ppl are calling it mediocre. It's just the lack of a cone (DT is a very good PBAoE) or two that makes MA kinda meh (well, that and the KBs and the all smashing damage...).

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I take my hats off to the billionaires out there, but while it's off, I'm scratching my head wondering "Why all the effort?"

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Because your inf total is your [u]SCORE[u].

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(I'm one of the weirdos that slots Ring of Fire for damage too)

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Nothing weird at all. RoF has a great DPA!

Too bad it causes a redraw on my Arch/Fire...

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what is the current scrapper record?

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4:18

Fire/Shield with monkeys saturating AAO.

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Keep in mind, that's w/no help, no temps, no insps. For this "challenge", absolutely, employ any defensive help you want (FF defender would help a lot), but if we can't really compare fairly to a self-sufficient scrapper build.

BTW, Fire/Rad controllers have done it under 4:10, also no temps, no insps.

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It's hard not to get positional defense in the mix as a matter of course with IO set bonuses, and weave, combat jumping, the +3 defense IO all add to positional defense as well.

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Sure, but you're not going to incidentally get up to 42.8% ranged def (which is where I am right now in my build) w/o actively trying, and sacrificing a few places.

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The s/l defense number is important primarily because most non-s/l attacks have a s/l component

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Yeah, I know that mechanic, but then if you have capped S/L resists along w/ capped E/N def, nearly capped F/C def, what are you really worried about? Psi (& Toxic, I guess), and I think most psi damage is pure psi.

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I've found that 40% typed defense across-the-board vs a single foe is more than sufficient for just about any challenge, and I have decent positional defense for psi and toxic.

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Which is the big debate. How much positional do you consider "decent"? Are you willing to go for 35% typed for an extra 5% ranged? How about an extra 10%? How about if you can have 40%+ of a lot of both?

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Learn when to quit when you're ahead, folks. It doesn't have to be about whose johnson is longer every single time.

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Personally, I have almost more fun planning these builds than actually playing them. If you're happy with your "decent" stats (which are prolly a bit better than just decent, right?), good for you, but I'd rather go to 11. Every single time.

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Well, the last 5% cuts your incoming (S/L) damage in half (that's a 50% reduction in "ow!"). Of course that's probably not strictly necessary as you point out.

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Yeah, I usually subscribe to that line of thought and I first started building my Invul/Fire (planned) in Mids' w/the same mindset I usually have for capping X defense, X being S/L in this case, and it occurred to me how superflous it was. Really, you're talking about cutting down from on average 1% of incoming damage actually taken (40% def + 90% res) to 0.5% damage taken (45 + 90). If you're ever being overwhelmed by that extra 0.5% damage (admittedly a bit higher for bosses, AVs, etc), there's something seriously wrong.

If you want to blow your money on a tough Stone tank, don't worry so much about going over the def cap, but instead work on your positionsl (i.e. ranged/AoE) defenses and Psi resistance through IOs. Covering your psi hole while in Granite will do you much more good than trying to get to 60% S/L def (mostly useless considering your resists are capped too) or whatever, and should be nice & expensive. As an alternate, try making a Granite-less Stony w/capped S/L/Psi def (psi part is easy), and as high F/C/E/N as you can manage, which will make a damn tough tank in and of itself. No, I'm not going to do your work for you.

This raises an interesting question for Invul, which I'd been mulling over for a bit. After abandoning my Invul tanker a long, long time ago, I feel the itch to reroll one and am wondering what defenses to focus on.

What def caps do you aim for? S/L/E/N? No positionals? Since most Psi is ranged (and some AoEs), I figured some ranged def would be good too, but it's hard to mix that in when focusing on S/L def. Then again, if you can hit the S/L resist cap, do you really need that big a S/L def number?

For instance, w/o gimping my build, I can get to a bit over E/N def cap, over 40% S/L/F/C and still get to a bit over 40% ranged def, 25% AoE, all along w/capped S/L resists. That's of course w/just 1 in range of Invinc. Is it really worth it to get the last 5% of S/L defense when your resists are that high?

Flares is really weird in that it's the only T1 blast that has a higher DPA than the T2. If you're only going to pick one or the other, pick Flares. It also recharges considerably faster, and since it animates faster (thus the higher DPA), so its overall drag on your sustained DPS is lower too (assuming Flares is your filler for some other chain).

The only thing Fire Blast has over Flares is slightly higher DPE, but it's hardly worthwhile. Of course, I'm still firmly in the camp of taking both blasts, but if you blap a lot or don't mind a bit of a gap in your chain, I can definitely see skipping Fire Blast.

For me, the only scrapper APP I ever bother w/is Dark for Pet Gaze, and mostly for sappers and the like. Of course, Pet Gaze is like the worst ST hold in the game (couldn't give scrappers Char like tanks, oh no... ).

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Not sure that the OP has such a build--if you do, please show us soloing a Pylon in 3:43, cuz that's what a DPS of 300 could do. We might even provide the necessary mitigation if required so that you can just do damage.

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Actually, killing a pylon in 3:43 isn't 300 dps. Pylons have 30675 hp. 300 dps would kill that in under 2 minutes. (Just to be nit-picky)

My ill/rad troller just solo'd a pylon, and I timed it with a stopwatch to 4:58. That's just over 100 dps.

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No, it's not. Pylons don't just have a pile of HPs; they have regen and your Ill/Rad has debuffs as well.

DPS = 38343.75 / seconds to solo pylon + 127.8125.

QR

Some random points:

Way up top, but if you think that Stone/Ice tanks have craptastic damage, you need to play tanks more (as long as we're accusing one another of not playing X enough ). Ice Melee has fantastic AoE damage now (just don't stay in Granite all day!). No, it's not going to outdamage a Fire blaster.

Ice Blast for defenders have a distinct advantage of having 2 rain powers with blaster damage scales. If you're */Ice and not taking Ice Storm & Blizzard, don't complain too much about the lack of damage, cuz you're sorta doing it to yourself.

I personally don't bother blasting too much w/my defenders except to stack up the secondary effects, i.e. not for damage (except for IS & Blizzard!). No BU (yes, PBU is available), rarely taken Aim, reduced damage scale all means that for the most part, you're not doing a hell of a lot of damage for yourself, esp if you're used to blasters. It took me a while to figure out the kinds of defenders I enjoy playing (see sig), which is to say 95% support, including the blasting part. I love Son & Dark blasts for their effects, and Ice for its AoE damage. I've tried numerous "offender" builds and always found them lacking.

Having said that, I would never, ever play a FF/* defender. Son & Cold, I can do some other stuff after shielding my teammates. The degree of this other stuff was already heavily debated elsewhere, so I'm not going into it again--just personal preference, I dislike playing FF/* defenders (I do play other FF toons, esp Red-side, not in sig obviously).

QR

You know, I was wondering why my WP scrapper was getting mezzed fighting big packs of Malta the other day. Yes, I was lead "tanking" for a team of 8--never used to be a problem before. S'cool tho, always like more challenges in an otherwise silly easy game.

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Dave_P: I had something to say but then I saw you throw in Combustion to improve performance and my brain collapsed.

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/Shoots Fulmens with Healing Arrow

Combustion >> SC for damage, my friend.

(Yes, in many cases, you'll likely be using neither power, but if you had to choose...)

I think this one's directed at me.

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1) DPA vs DPS: unless you're running about 300% recharge, or you're a fire/mental/elec or AR/whatever blaster, you do not have a full attack chain of AOE's. Now admittedly 2.67 (3.0?) seconds in melee range is a long time, but it's stupid to basically claim that Short Circuit is three times as bad as Fireball, as if Fireball-fireball-fireball was a gapless attack chain.

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The phrase that seems to have struck off this brouhaha was that SC does approx half as much damage as the next least damaging attack. As a matter of semantics, this is a perfectly defensible argument. If you look at pure DPA, the next least damaging attack is in the 30s. 17 is a bit more than half of 30--this is where that statement came from. You can certainly refute this by factoring in recharge times and AoE caps, but on its face, it's a correct statement. So why look at DPAs for AoE attacks?

In a realistic application of different blaster primaries' AoE attacks, some of the recharge time is more or less irrelevant because you're either going to wipe out the spawn in one salvo, or you're not and you're picking off survivors w/ST attacks. If your fastest recharging AoE comes back in time, you might recast that, but rarely are you recasting your longer recharging AoEs, esp if it's something that needs to be "set up", such as a cone.

Let's look at a typical Fire chain. You do FB+FB, Blaze, etc to clean up the mess for a spawn you know you can take out 90% of w/the FB (breath & ball) combo. Recharge is irrelevant in this case. Let's talk about a tougher spawn that might need more cycling. You go FBall > FBreath > RoF > Blaze, and around now FBall is recharged (which is why I'd lead w/it in this case instead of Breath) and you recast FBall. In a sequence like this w/no gaps (if your recharge isn't that great, stick in Flares or something), doesn't your DPA matter a whole hell of a lot more than your "DPS" based upon your recharge? What if you have (PB)AoEs in your secondary? You do FB > FB > RoF > FSC > Combustion, and look, Fireball's back up again. How do you optimize that chain? How do you determine which attack to skip? DPA (and recharge) order and positioning needs.

Now, is Elec "three times as bad as Fire"? Good lord, no--I've never said or intimated that. Does the fact that SC has a miserable DPA drag down Elec's overall AoE performance? Of course it does, which is the whole point of looking at individual DPAs--to get a good gauge of how effective a chain in that powerset will be, and how to prioritize them. If you were playing Elec/Fire, you likely shouldn't fire of SC in favor of FSC or Combustion, unless you were aiming for the end drain, but you wouldn't know this unless you knew what the respective DPAs were (yes, yes, range & AoE caps matter too). Can you realistically have a BL > FSC > Combustion > BL chain? Yes, but more to the point, the spawn should be dead by this time, so you wouldn't need to go much further than maybe a 2nd BL, esp if you led w/BU or Aim. No need for SC in this case (again, unless you're going for end drain).

Of course, if you're playing Elec/Elec or En/En or whatever, you're not going to have gapless AoE chains, but if evaluating sets to determine which has a more effective AoE attack, isn't it worthwhile to determine that the ET > EB chain is more time effective than EB > SC, and by quite a bit? Of course, Elec does a lot more than just damage and I've repeated that it's a good set, but if someone wanted to play a blaster to do lots of AoE damage, I'd sure as hell steer them away from Elec (and En, and Psi, and Son...). And since the topic of this thread is "Is electric/ really low damage," this is particularly relevant data.

Final point to reiterate, because this is getting too drawn out. You're assuming you'll always be hitting max targets in your calculations. I doubt this happens more than 10% of the time in real life unless you're exclusively playing on large teams. If I'm on a big team, it's either usually a pretty fast moving, high DPS one where a 3 sec animation will be largely wasted, or a PUG where I'm not going to be very safe standing in the middle of 16 mobs for those 3 sec, rooted. Your experiences are different, obviously.

My claims are backed up by my numbers, yours by your own calculations (more or less). Let's let ppl who want to make their own Elec blasters make their own decisions, shall we?

It might not be as important, but AoE DPA is important for the very reason you state in your last line. While you're animating Rain of Arrows, I can throw down Fireball, Rain of Fire & be a tick or 2 into Fire Breath. It shows why Full Auto might not be the best cone to use in AR. It shows just how pathetic Howl is (and all Sonic attacks for pure damage--very nice secondary effects, of course). Of course there are a myriad of other parameters like range, radius, end costs, type of damage, etc, but I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that DPA is the single most important stat about an attack power.

(*Edited for clarity)

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This is the correct data, with the correct division:

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No, it's not. If you do not know what Arcanatime is, I'd suggest doing a bit of research (should be easy enough) before engaging in this level of number-crunching. No offense, but I'm not going to waste a lot of time looking over numbers that I can tell from the first line are incorrect.

Edit: Oops, I see Chaos_String has kindly given an explanation. If you think that's "fuzzy math", there's nothing more for me to say in this debate.

We're talking about two different things in this thread. The OP is asking for pure DPS output, and that puts Fire/Elec ahead. I first mentioned "effective" DPS, which is what you're talking about. As a matter of practicality, both have different uses. If you're looking to solo pylons and AVs or even help in those fights, your effective DPS including all debuffs will matter more. If you're beating up on a lot of minions, pure DPS output matters more. Then again, for this latter, you should care more about AoE output anyway--my responses of Fire/Elec have been from a purely academic PoV, because I happen to find such calculations interesting.