I have a MA/SR scrapper who uses an attack chain of AirSup > SK > TK > Boxing, and yeah, the damage is pretty gimp.
But at least he punches. And the chain spams knockdown, too, which is useful against bosses.
Ultimately I don't recommend it, though; I built mine this way a long time ago for conceptual reasons, and I like the toon, but now that I've built a couple 200+ DPS scrappers, going back to 150ish DPS feels really lame.
I use a mix of air superiority, storm kick, crane kick and dragon's tail in Infatum's build. The biggest thing is to get storm kick and put it in your chain as absolutely frequently as possible. Everything else is pretty much secondary.
In any case you will undoubtedly hurt your DPS by adding pool powers. Infatum's is somewhere around 110 factoring in Arcanatime assuming my calculations are correct. I've been trying to find a way to rework my chain to rely on Air superiority less, but so far no dice.
Infatum on Virtueverse
I was thinking the same thing when I first tried MA. All kicks is boring. Air sups animation doesn't seem to fit what you are going for. Neither does boxing. IMO, due to that, the gimp isn't worth it. Flurry seems like it would fit in better but I really can't sign on taking that over a prime neither.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
My chain is CAK,SK,CK, I throw in eagle claw once in while but those are my main 3 attacks goes really smooth...
I usually jump in mob hit dragon's tail, eagle claw boss or lt then the chain. Works quite well
That sounds like a very gimped DPS chain for PvE.
PvP on the other hand is a different story. (Lol travel power attacks)
Sure, using just the attacks from your primary, you can do fine DPS with MA. That wasn't the question. The question is whether adding punches to your combo by using pool attacks like Boxing or Air Superiority will gimp your damage output.
And the fact is that it does. Those pool attacks don't really belong in most scrapper max-DPS chains. There used to be a buzzsaw DM/* concept that used Boxing, but that's no longer a performer because Shadow Punch got a longer animaton and Siphon Life became a good attack. So Boxing's back in the doghouse with the other dogs.
Off the top of my head I can't think of any serious scrapper DPS chains that would actually want Boxing, let alone Air Superiority (which is worse for DPS), so in that sense if you use it, yes, you are gimping yourself.
OTOH, like I said, at least Air Sup is a good mitigation tool.
I really dont know what the DPS is but it is effective for general PVE play
Yeah, I have the same problem on my MA I've tried EC, jumpkick(don't ask), TK, SK and then replaced JK with boxing. Dmg is meh.
I avoided CK because I hate knockback and CAK cause its ugly. Now I figure I'll have to put them back in. I just can't figure out a good enough chain right now though.
Just to throw out something that hasn't been mentioned, but I've been personally considering...
Brawl can actually become a pretty respectable attack with enough damage procs in it. With yet another damage proc in the PVP set, I've been seriously considering revisiting this idea. May have to go to the warzone tonight and try a few attack chains out on the dummies to see if I like the feel >_>
Infatum on Virtueverse
I think the standard chain for MA is CK->SK->CAK->SK repeat. Not the best scrapper dps around, but not that gimped either.
Sure MA could need a few buffs. It's a bit sad that its tier 9 has a low dpa and is skipped by most min-maxers, and that Cobra Strike, its only "punch-attack", doesnt deal any real damage.
I try to end with CK just for the sake of if KB hits. KB dont bother me but it does look so pretty when hit someone and they go flying back dead
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I try to end with CK just for the sake of if KB hits. KB dont bother me but it does look so pretty when hit someone and they go flying back dead
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Crane Kick is pretty much the reason I love MA. That animation paired with the knockback is a beautiful thing.
Infatum on Virtueverse
For max DPS, I use a variant of this attack chain which I got from Werner:
Stom Kick -> Crane Kick -> Storm Kick -> Crippling Ax Kick
Now this is a HIGH RECHARGE chain. A lower recharge chain would use Thunder Kick as a filler for gaps.
You can replace CAK with EC for about 5% less DPS, assuming similar recharge.
Now I remember that Boxing could be interchangeable with Thunder Kick, but TK is still slightly better than Boxing (I think TK has better burst while Boxing might have equal or even better DPS at a certain range of recharge, but higher recharge puts TK ahead).
In the end, you will need at least Storm Kick and 2 of the three big hitters (Crane, CAK, and Eagle's Claw) if you want to max out the DPS on your Scrapper. I get by with Storm, Crane, and EC, and I managed to take down a pylon (though it was close to an hour doing so).
But that's just for DPS; MA is pretty damage heavy enough that you won't have to worry much about DPS unless you are dealing with at least Bosses (and even some of them might not last long enough to matter) and higher. You can still incorporate Air Superiority and/or Boxing if you want more of a "punchy" concept. Air Superiority can replace CAK since it has almost the same soft-control in it, so it could be worthwhile for damage mitigation.
I like Infatum's idea of using Brawl. I actually have Brawl 4-slotted (for set bonuses primarily) with also a KD proc. I put that on auto and I am still amazed at how many times I juggle mobs with just that alone. I image damage procs would do the same as well.
Another idea is to roll up a MA/SD, if you are flexible on not having to keep /SR. That combo will significantly have higher damage output and better DPS to help compensate for choosing "lesser" attack powers.
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Now I remember that Boxing could be interchangeable with Thunder Kick, but TK is still slightly better than Boxing (I think TK has better burst while Boxing might have equal or even better DPS at a certain range of recharge, but higher recharge puts TK ahead).
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I can't imagine any attack chain which would be better with Boxing instead of Thunder Kick. Thunder Kick animates faster and does more damage. So, even Thunder Kick with a gap of dead air to bring it in line with Boxing's animation time is better than Boxing. The only advantage Boxing has is a slightly faster recharge time, but frankly, any attack chain that desperately wants to use Boxing as fast as it's recharged needs to be thrown out the window.
The only reason to use Boxing instead of Thunder Kick is if you're going for Tough/Weave and need to save a power selection. And then you're sacrificing DPA relative to what you'd have with Thunder Kick.
I don't care what the dps is, im never getting rid of eagle's claw your using it whenever up. the mez is great on anything less than bosses, and you can stack it with thunder kick sometimes, and it just looks cool.
I had AS in my chain for awhile instead of TK, and switched when I heard that they buffed TK. Next respec I may switch back to see how it goes. After 4 years with the dude, a little change here and there is refreshing, and the Knock up just comes in handy a ton.l
I remember back in the day before even the Invention System (I don't recall exactly when) of a discussion with trying to replace TK with something else, specifically Boxing and Air Superiority. I actually did some calculations where Boxing and Thunder Kick were very similar to each other, with Thunder Kick being better in DPS and Boxing in burst (or the other way around, I'm not sure). This allowed some builds to save a power in order to get Tough/Weave into the build, as Chaos_String has suggested.
Since then, MA has had a few changes as well as the Invention System implemented. Medium to high recharge bonuses are now very possible in builds, making Thunder Kick evidently superior to Boxing in all but the slowest recharge builds (where the differences might be more theoretical than practical, but TK still also has MA's inherent +Acc). Boxing, then, has just been used to open up the Fighting pool or to hold IO sets.
I don't think there is anything wrong with taking Boxing over Thunder Kick if you are looking at the build overall, though as Chaos_Theory stated, you might be sacrificing your damage rate in exchange for something else. But for max DPS/DPA/DPT/etc, there are very few compromises in terms of power choices.
I agree with spider's last post, especially the last sentence.
If you are min/maxin, which is totally cool, and by using that phrase im not insulting it by any means, just the easiest way to identify it, there really is only one way to slot and play a toon.
If you want a kung-fu guy that does more than just kick, get other powers. AS does a lot with knockup that doesn't equate to a min/max equation.
I remember seein a guy, and this was before IOs, that had a pirate/scoundrel lookin guy that only had SK, TK, boxin, AS, and hasten that just went absolutly nuts with attacks. I asked him if it was fun, and he said it was a blast always havin an attack or two up and goin crazy. It looked fun seein it go on, and had to be more fun to play.
i think if you go purely from a min/max standpoint there is only one option, but is it fun for you to play personally?
I think the heart of this thread gets at something that I have wanted ever sense they let us vote on the new powers....Street Fighting.
I pictured it as a mixture of a lot of sets and some new attacks, for kicks, punches, elbows, knees, headbutts and who knows. And we got dual blades, which I see how it won in terms of voting, but the combo system just lost me, not in terms of understanding, but in terms of wanting to play it.
Actually I think there are quite a few ways to approach min/maxing, and several different approaches work.
Let's say you have 3 cookies and 2 kids: Offense and Defense. You could give 2 cookies to Offense and 1 to Defense; your defense would be barely adequate for the challenges you're taking on, but you'd be a damage powerhouse. Or you could give 2 cookies to Defense and only 1 to Offense, and you'd whittle away at pylons and AVs and take much longer to defeat them, but basically never be defeated yourself.
Or, like many others who approach these forums, you could give 1 cookie to Offense and 1 to Defense, and sell the third one at WW's. This is the "sort of min-maxed build" where cost is an object, where the player doesn't want to shell out for purples, pvp IOs, etc.
I've noticed that some posters in this forum really like giving two cookies to Defense. They may not be doing 200DPS, but they have Parry on top of softcapped defense and 90%DDR for just in case, or slot Siphon Life for more healing at the expense of some DPS, or whatever.
And I look at these builds and think, "My */* scrapper outdamages this build by quite a lot," but at the same time I also realize, "This guy could really hang in there against some foes that would likely put me down." And I respect the other build as being optimized for someone else's playstyle.
And then there's the guys soloing pylons faster and faster all the time, but at the expense of certain defenses or QoL features I'd never want to give up. Yet I still do respect the optimization of a build that can output that kind of damage.
What I'm driving at is, I think there's more than one way to purely min/max a build.
And having said that, I own one MA/SR scrapper, and he has Air Superiority and Boxing, and uses them because all kicking all the time just seems idiotic to me. It would totally ruin my enjoyment of the character if he never punched. But like I said before, I'm aware that I gimped--had to gimp--my damage output to put those attacks into the attack chain.
And that's a shame. I consider it a deep flaw in the design of the Martial Arts powerset, and I won't be rolling any more MA toons, let alone leveling them to 50, unless/until that changes.
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If you want a kung-fu guy that does more than just kick, get other powers. AS does a lot with knockup that doesn't equate to a min/max equation.
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I can't imagine why anyone would want AS as a concept power for a MA toon. Looks like a power move, not something out of any traditional martial art. Boxing doesn't look pretty either, but at least it's a traditional punch that pretty much anyone would throw. What they really need is a one-two move, ala Barrage, but as a punch-kick combo: a quick jab followed by a kick by the lead leg.
DPA-wise (if you don't care, just skip this part), pool powers are a complete joke. CAK & EC have 70~64% higher DPA values than Boxing & AS, so yeah, you'll be "gimping" your toon somewhat. SK > CK > SK > CAK has a very good ST DPS for scrappers (SK has one of the best DPA values, period)--not sure why ppl are calling it mediocre. It's just the lack of a cone (DT is a very good PBAoE) or two that makes MA kinda meh (well, that and the KBs and the all smashing damage...).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
I guess I'm silly, but generally my MA Scrapper (or any toon's) attack chain involves me attacking the bad guy until dead.
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I guess I'm silly, but generally my MA Scrapper (or any toon's) attack chain involves me attacking the bad guy until dead.
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They ain't kilt! They's De-feat-ed.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
Just as a follow up, I've decided to go with:
SK, CK, Air Sup (Boxing looked better, but that knock up has saved my bacon several times now), and CAK (the only one I'm not real happy about). I then throw Sands in there when I have a desire to be punchy.
It works -okay- conceptually and seems to perform decently at level 29. Though I think I'm going to try and make room for Cobra Strike and play up the controlly aspect of the set.
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
If you decide to get Cobra Strike, then also get Eagle's Claw. Cobra Strike is almost worthless at the higher levels unless you can stack it with Eagle's Claw.
Air Superiority is great for kicking a guy when he's down.
So! Along with my Claws/SR scrapper (who I love. Whoosh!) I thought I might take a look at dusting off my MA/SR scrapper as well!
Now, I think I remember scrapping her because the higher level kicks really didn't look like the mixed martial arts street fighter I was going for.
So my question is, is it viable to replace CAK with something like Air Sup and Eagle's Claw with something like Boxing without completely gimping your already average DPS? I'm envisioning a chain with equal parts punching and kicking.
Thanks for the feedback!
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker