My first tank was an Invul back when you could perma hasten and unstoppable.....I miss those days, but I digress. I still use him for everything. Mostly he was what "scranking" was all about, and he could hold aggro with Whirling Pom Pom's. These days I still do heavy dmg thanks to TF and ET. Overall I solo quite well. With EM speed kills and total focus. I also enjoy the stun, but I respect out of it about two years ago. As even though it could stun a boss, it was never pivotal in my build. Fun to stun was back in the day, now big teams devour mobs, but I suppose it'll find its way into my build one of these days.
I understand its not liked much currently, but I have no real problem doing big damage. And the strength and speed at early levels is very comfortable. On that note , thinkg of energy melee as a colorful super strength, with more disorient, and an AoE that recharges faster and does damage, with two K.O blow replacements.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
[ QUOTE ]
So I rerolled my BS/SD Scrapper into a SD/EM tank. I felt squishy as hell for the first 22 levels, and weak as hell until 35 (I'm now 36). But now that I'm past the nightmare, and my defense and damage are bearable, I'm starting to wonder...
I know Energy Melee gets a lot of negativity for its long animations and subpar utility, but I created mine like I was rolling a Scrapper (the "Can't go wrong" mentality). Plus, the animation for Energy Transfer is just too cool =] Anyway! What should and shouldn't be taken from EM? I considered grabbing Stun, since that plus Total Focus puts a boss under (as far as I know)... but I can't seem to fit it in.
But what I'm getting at is this: Is EM JUST a set with above average ST damage and crappy AoE? Or does it really have utility? I don't think the set is bad... but it seems every other set can do whatever it does but better.
[/ QUOTE ]
The utility factor are the stuns that can be generated by any of your powers. Some people get annoyed when the stunned targets wander around/away, but this shouldn't effect Shields overly much (might drop you a few percentage of damage bonus for AAO is all).
You are correct in that EM is good at single target damage and poor at AOE. No getting around that. Being paired with SD helps though.
Don't bother with Stun ... you don't need it (tends to be superfluous in my mind in a set that already stuns better then any other Tanker secondary).
Might want to look at Aid Self though 
I have a 37 inv/em that I struggled with for a long time. After reading these amazing tank threads and respec, I am now pretty happy. AoE does stink, but y'know... I can just tank. Hold the agg, stand there and get beat on. Throw a pink pompom here and there and taunt.
Aid self is awesome!
Since I oppose violence against deceased equines, I'll forgo the arguments as to why EM is subpar and just answer the OP's questions.
[ QUOTE ]
What should and shouldn't be taken from EM?
[/ QUOTE ]
Take:
Energy Punch - this is your bread & butter attack. 5 or 6-slot it. Your attack chain will look like X > EP > Y > EP > Z EP. EP recharges faster and does more damage (DPA-wise) than Barrage.
Whirling Hands - this is your only AoE attack. 6-slot it, not just for Acc & Dam, but Rech too.
Energy Transfer - this is your best attack. 5 or 6-slot it. Likely 6-slot unless you're really tight for slots.
Total Focus - this is actually your 2nd best DPA attack, and its DPE is equal to Barrage, EP & BS (so don't listen to the myth that it's end-heavy--yes it is, but it evens out). 6 Slot it for both damage & stuns if you can (Perox HOs when you get to 47 are great for this).
Maybes:
Barrage - Okay, you're forced to take this, but the question is, do you slot it? Its DPA was increased a while back, but it still sucks compared to EP or BS. It recharges only a bit faster than BS. 4 or 5 slot it if you're not picking up BS, otherwise pretend you don't have the power.
Bone Smasher - If you can fit it in, it's a good part of your attack chain. Has equal (actually a hair higher) DPA to EP, but better burst & % to stun.
Taunt - Completely up to you. I only take it as an IO mule, but then I'm happy I have it.
Build Up - If you can fit it in. If you're going for a scranker build, I'd put this up as a definite take.
Skip:
Stun. You got TF as a sure, mag 3 stun. As a tank, you really don't need a 2nd one that does negligible damage.
[ QUOTE ]
But what I'm getting at is this: Is EM JUST a set with above average ST damage and crappy AoE? Or does it really have utility? I don't think the set is bad... but it seems every other set can do whatever it does but better.
[/ QUOTE ]
You nailed it, but again, I don't wanna go into it again. Stuns have good utility, btw.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
To the extent that your primary relies on click powers for survivability, you want to avoid Energy Melee. The broken animations are likely to make them unavailable when needed. This means that Fire, Ice, and Dark primaries, which otherwise might find it attractive, should definitely avoid it. It has serious disadvantages for Stone, and Invulnerability for the same reason. Willpower and Shields don't need to worry as much.
Willpower's weak aura is not helped by stuns, and needs strong AoE to hold aggro. That makes it a poor pairing too.
What's left is basically Shields, and ... Shields. Shields gets an extra AoE attack in the primary, which helps. Shields does not rely on click powers for survivability. And Shields/EM has an easy and obvious build progression, having several postponable primary powers and skippable secondary powers makes an easy build. That's about the only primary that really has any sort of synergy with EM in its current incarnation.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Again, I never had a problem getting my Invul/Nrg to 50, my friend has a Stone/Enrg currently at lvl 44....I don't see what's the problem with leveling with EM if you get on big teams and run missions?. Am I missing someting here?. Broken animations?, can I get a video demonstrating how any of the moves are broken?, I have no problem soloing and performing on teams, so if its broken, I must be doing something wrong....
[ QUOTE ]
It has serious disadvantages for Stone
[/ QUOTE ]
Granite reduces the strength and speed of every secondary not just EM, Even super strength. As much as I love my K.O. blow, I know its hindered by Granite, and even then I still manage to perforom effeciently. So its really the skill of the player in this case. I'm starting to think many of the people on this board that claim they know whats "good or bad", havent the slightest idea of said AT.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
The animations are "broken" because they take too long. More than 3 seconds is too long to wait if you are a team's tanker.
Specifically, if you rely on click heals like Fire and Dark tankers do, the animations put them out of reach for far too long. Inv and Stone have slower recharging self heals that aren't as integral to their general survivability --- but when they need them, there must be an even greater emergency.
Of course, the animations make Taunt inaccessible while you watch the movie as well.
If the devs are going to rebalance attack sets by making animations slower, they need to move click powers to a separate queue outside of the attack queue, and make them instantly effective whenever clicked, regardless of what else is going on. Until that happens, Energy Melee is broken as a tanker secondary.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
[ QUOTE ]
Specifically, if you rely on click heals like Fire and Dark tankers do, the animations put them out of reach for far too long.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've said this before and I responded before on this matter.
I have a Dark/Energy Tank that uses ET often. It takes 2.67s to animate. It's my fault for not watching my health or knowing my aggro if I die during the animation/from the health loss. It has nothing to do with the length of animation time preventing me from hitting Dark Regen.
It's all a matter of timing and using that grey matter in between your ears. Yep, that's a fancy way of saying lrn2ply.
[ QUOTE ]
Until that happens, Energy Melee is broken as a tanker secondary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I would say that's it's LEAST broken on tanks and moreso on Brutes where fast animating attacks actually MEAN something to their overall efficiency.
So by your own definition, if a power takes a total of three or more seconds to execute, its therefore broken?. Just so you know;
Total Focus : 3.3sec
Energy Transfer : 2.67secs
Whirling Hands : 2.5secs
The longest cast for a Tanker secondary is Ice patch :3.47, I double checked and nothing exceeds 3.50 seconds. So I really don't see how anything is broken. You either never played a EM or have and have no idea what your talking about.
[ QUOTE ]
and make them instantly effective whenever clicked
[/ QUOTE ]
So you want "insta casts"?, play WoW much?, I rather enjoy the fact that the moves have a sense of flair in CoH, its the player's fault if they die executing a move they know would take "too long". But honestly if you think 3 seconds is too long , you either suffer from ADD or are the most impatient person in the world.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
I've suddenly been inspired to make a dark/energy tank.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Until that happens, Energy Melee is broken as a tanker secondary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I would say that's it's LEAST broken on tanks and moreso on Brutes where fast animating attacks actually MEAN something to their overall efficiency.
[/ QUOTE ]You must bear in mind 'broken' means something different for Heraclea than it does for, well, me and I suspect a lot of other people. 'Broken' means 'I don't like it, and wish to state such things with an air that makes me sound like an absolute authority.'
Alright, everything is definitely subjective here.
For almost the entire life of the game, Energy Transfer took less then a second to animate. My Fire/EM was my main character ever since the beta of the game, and is one of 3 characters that I've had since the beginning of this game that I have not deleted (only reason he is not deleted now is because he is the first character I ever created).
Most of the people on the boards loved Energy Melee because of this. Sure some attacks were slow. Sure Barrage is really weak. Sure AoE sucks with Whirling Hands being the worst or one of the worst AoE attacks for a tanker (I only used it to keep aggro). But the saving grace of all that was Energy Transfer. And it was like that for 4 years.
Now in the last year, two of the biggest changes to Energy Melee was:
Energy Transfer: casting time was increased by 2 seconds
Total Focus: Magnitude for stun was decreased from 4 to 3. (no more stunning bosses with the one attack).
Anyone who has played Energy Melee knows that the main reason to play one (besides the cool pom poms) was because it had one focus. It was the best single target secondary a tanker could get. With the loss of those two things, all of a sudden, the main attraction was gone. It's glory lessened. This is why the veterans feel that the set is slow (and it is). Too many of its main attacks have long casting times.
If this is a brand new set for you, then please enjoy it. But for others there are better sets out there that can give you the same performance, or similar, plus you have better AoE attacks.
Being a Fire/EM tanker, (which I know many have been including Heraclea) it hurts more because Fire Armor received lots of nerfs as well, so with the two combined, its just too many changes for those that played both.
Now of course, if you don't care about the numbers, if you don't care about efficiency, if you don't care about AoEs, and if you never played it before, then yes, Energy Melee doesn't feel broken to you. Please enjoy it because its one of the sets that make you feel like a hero. Big numbers, impressive moves, etc.
Don't let us discourage you from a set you enjoy, but if you come to the forums, the vets will pipe in. We could argue about it, but it will just end up being a long thread about us going back and forth. This post is not meant to be mean, sarcastic or anything else if it come out that way. Please enjoy Energy Melee, its our game and have fun with that which makes you happy.
I fully agree Darminian. Completely. I just laughed at the idea that someone (Hercalieeeya) thought it was broken because of a four second cast time, which of course was false i.e. incredibly inaccurate.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
It's "broken" because it no longer works as efficiently as it used to, and the rhythm of the set is completely off. The changes wrought on the power set are indistinguishable from the effects of lag.
Now, the sequence Build Up - Energy Transfer - Total Focus lasts a minute of 7.14 seconds total, assuming the absence of lag and instant activation. AFAIAC this is a very long time to be unable to do anything else, especially for a relatively weak tanking set that relies on a self heal like Fire.
If they must "rebalance" the set by extending animation times --- which was balanced before, given its lack of utility and the problems inherent with stun as its only control --- then a number of problems resulting need to be addressed. These things seemed to be simply overlooked when the decision was made to use animation times to "rebalance" the set.
- The problem with click powers - self-heals, defensive click powers, and inspirations - needs to be solved. These things need to be instant and outside the attack chain. They can't port the set to Scrappers in its current form, unless they make EM/Regen a blocked option like Katana/Shield.
- When they made the animation times longer, they did not change the duration of Build Up to match. Now your two main attacks eat up 3/4 of the duration of the buff.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
[ QUOTE ]
- The problem with click powers - self-heals, defensive click powers, and inspirations - needs to be solved. These things need to be instant and outside the attack chain. They can't port the set to Scrappers in its current form, unless they make EM/Regen a blocked option like Katana/Shield.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they can since you can make a EM/Regen Stalker. But I agree with you, for anything but Stalkers and maybe Tankers (well except perhaps for Fire thats overly dependent on the click heal) the set feels slow.
[ QUOTE ]
It's "broken" because it no longer works as efficiently as it used to
[/ QUOTE ]
If that's the definition of broken, everything is broken since i5.
[ QUOTE ]
changes wrought on the power set are indistinguishable from the effects of lag
[/ QUOTE ]
If your lag is predictable in when it occurs and for how long, while allowing you to still type or target, then you have some of the best damn lag I've ever heard of.
[ QUOTE ]
the sequence Build Up - Energy Transfer - Total Focus lasts a minute of 7.14 seconds total
[/ QUOTE ]
And that's enough to kill a lieutenant, which is more than what you can say for some of the tanker secondaries.
[ QUOTE ]
AFAIAC this is a very long time to be unable to do anything else
[/ QUOTE ]
You're not locked into those specific powers in that specific sequence as soon as you hit buildup. So, no, you can do anything else. Unless, of course, you're worried about wasting the build-up buff, which is no more relevant for energy melee than it is for anyone else.
edit: If you use energy tansfer at the end of the buildup cycle, you've lost nothing (buffs are calculated at the beginning, not end of animations). You're only losing substantial damage from build-up if you had the recharge to get two energy tranfers in one build-up cycle, which is hardly defensible as mandatory for balance.
[ QUOTE ]
- The problem with click powers - self-heals, defensive click powers, and inspirations - needs to be solved.
[/ QUOTE ]
You haven't identified a problem that fire/mace or fire/axe tanker didn't deal with for years.
[ QUOTE ]
When they made the animation times longer, they did not change the duration of Build Up to match
[/ QUOTE ]
You say this as though it is an unindended consequence without having anything to suggest such.
[ QUOTE ]
Now your two main attacks eat up 3/4 of the duration of the buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
And they do about as much damage in that amount of time as 3~4 attacks from other sets. You've failed to show how this is problem by any means other than saying it is.
While Energy Melee is arguably inferior in every way to stone melee, you've offered nothing to support the horribly underpowered state you're painting, other than previous adecdotes concerning your inability to solo vanguard missions on your fire/em.
All of this over 1.6s
I wouldnt call the set broken. It still does its job.
However, the set used to be fun for me. After the changes it definitely doesnt fit my pace of play anymore.
[ QUOTE ]
You haven't identified a problem that fire/mace or fire/axe tanker didn't deal with for years.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, Energy Melee is not the only set with the problem, but it is a set where the problem is particularly bad --- to the point of seriously impacting the survivability, not only the damage, of the Fire/EM combination. Regen scrappers have it even worse, of course. Even if wasting Build Up was intentional, this looks very much like an unintended consequence.
When you click heals or the inspirations, they should do something. They fail to take effect in time, much, much too often.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
[ QUOTE ]
When you click heals or the inspirations, they should do something. They fail to take effect in time, much, much too often.
[/ QUOTE ]
I enjoy pushing my characters as far as I can, but I find it hard to accept the complaint that someone's usage of inspirations is so precarious that they're ok to activate an attack, but within the next three seconds the character is dead because (s)he couldn't use an inspriation. That's just not something I've seen play out, even making liberal use of shadow maul on my dm/regen scrapper.
You've never had a character go from almost full health to dead in the course of three seconds? It has happened to me more often than I care to admit.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
[ QUOTE ]
You've never had a character go from almost full health to dead in the course of three seconds?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not when an inspiration or two would have stopped it during the 3 seconds, and not before.
It does happen. Quite a bit. If not, you wouldn't see so many complaints in the forums over the years about Shadow Maul, Propel, and other time consuming attacks. And this is more important for tanks in my opinion because a group can (not always) live or die by its tank.
A fire tank can jump into a group and take Alpha, thanks to its powers and Healing Flames, but what happens when the second wave of attacks happen that can overwhelm a tanker. Can't hit an inspiration in time, no healer around. Dead.
This of course is less noticeable when solo. You don't have as many mobs around you as in a team, but crank it up to 5. Or if you want to see how noticeable it is, then go to AE.
Oh and back to my original train of thought, the other half of the posts regarding these long attacks is the fact that in group settings, the mobs may be already dead when the attack goes off (Energy Transfer, Propel, etc.) but, if you are using these powers, you know that already.
edit: I admit I'm acting a bit dismissive of the complaints, but ever since I've seen people so adamantly defend the energy transfer animation change as a nerf to gauntlet, with no attempts to provide evidence or refute the numbers involved, I've simply stopped believing the issues brought up by energy melee to be anything more than tangential complaints by people that aren't happy with being nerfed.
[ QUOTE ]
It does happen. Quite a bit. If not, you wouldn't see so many complaints in the forums
[/ QUOTE ]
People on the forums complain about the accuracy of dark melee, 1.6s added to energy transfer, being unable to find a group, every set that doesn't provide endurance being "endurance heavy", how useless tankers or forcefield defenders are, how a situational 5% damage bonus of brutes over scrappers is unfair to scrappers, invulnerability tankers being unable to tank AVs for teams, being unable to solo an AV without temporary powers on any particular character, marketeers manipulating the market, and farmers in general destroying the very fabric of the game.
I have to say I disagree with most of the complaints on the boards. Using their existence as proof of a problem is absurd.
[ QUOTE ]
Can't hit an inspiration in time, no healer around. Dead.
[/ QUOTE ]
A healer? You must be joking. Going from full health to dead in three seconds because you're animating an attack is a problem, and you think a healer is going to save you?
If you're so dependant upon inspirations that you can't survive three seconds without using them, you'll simply die when they dry up. Are you expecting me to believe you would have activated a 1s attack instead of 2.67s, see the rate that you're accruing damage, hit an inspiration, and survive the next 1.67s because of it? This seems to disregard human reaction times and the time it takes to move a mouse over to and click the inspirations. The entire position is laughable.
And, of course, using the inspiration before you take the damage is only an option for me, it seems.
[ QUOTE ]
the mobs may be already dead when the attack goes off
[/ QUOTE ]
The corollary to this is if you were to hit with those attacks a second earlier, the attacks your teammates were making would be wasted instead of yours. The only negative consequence of such an event (that being one person wasting an attack instead of another) is if the person who is a fraction of a second late looses out on a beneficial side effect of the attack (i.e. siphon life or follow up). Energy melee doesn't have any such powers, so what you're describing seriously doesn't matter.
[ QUOTE ]
I admit I'm acting a bit dismissive of the complaints, but ever since I've seen people so adamantly defend the energy transfer animation change as a nerf to gauntlet,
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't recall anybody defending the energy transfer animation change as a nerf to gauntlet. The change to Barrage is also a substantial nerf to Fury for those unlucky enough to have an EM/ brute, but that's not really our concern either.
The set just plays like swimming in molasses now, and while I have breath and continuing interest in the game I shall continue to warn everyone away from it. My last respec to my fire/EM tanker picked up Air Superiority, just so I would have an attack chain without large gaps. First she lost her primary, then, her secondary.
The notion that Energy Melee needed to be nerfed was wrong in the first place. Like Stone Armor, its strengths used to be balanced by large weaknesses. Now the set no longer has its niche; it has no reason to exist, and probably just ought to be closed to new characters. The Barrage nerf probably achieves that in practice anyways.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
So I rerolled my BS/SD Scrapper into a SD/EM tank. I felt squishy as hell for the first 22 levels, and weak as hell until 35 (I'm now 36). But now that I'm past the nightmare, and my defense and damage are bearable, I'm starting to wonder...
I know Energy Melee gets a lot of negativity for its long animations and subpar utility, but I created mine like I was rolling a Scrapper (the "Can't go wrong" mentality). Plus, the animation for Energy Transfer is just too cool =] Anyway! What should and shouldn't be taken from EM? I considered grabbing Stun, since that plus Total Focus puts a boss under (as far as I know)... but I can't seem to fit it in.
But what I'm getting at is this: Is EM JUST a set with above average ST damage and crappy AoE? Or does it really have utility? I don't think the set is bad... but it seems every other set can do whatever it does but better.