Didn't really want to argue. For the most part, everything you said is valid. The only a couple of things I want to point out:
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A healer? You must be joking. Going from full health to dead in three seconds because you're animating an attack is a problem, and you think a healer is going to save you?
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First of all, most people aren't at full health in the middle of battle. Especially a tank. How many times have you entered into a group, taken alpha, and been unluck that your bar goes into the red and you are able to heal yourself?
Your health bar yo-yos up and down the whole battle. The player has to decide when to heal, use inspirations, etc. Sometimes you make good calls and sometimes you make bad calls. If you have 20% health, should I fire off Energy Transfer to get rid of this guy, or should I hit an inspiration? If I miss, do I have time to heal myself before he attacks? As a player, you make these decisions all the time, their not always going to be good. Experience teaches you what risks to take.
The 3 seconds of animation hinders your ability to make an immediate decision on what to do with your health, end, etc. I'm not saying that Energy Melee is the only tanker secondary that has this, but the rep that EM had was a ST damage monster, quick attacks and little AoE. Now all you have is a slow set with long activating ST damage attacks, little AoE, but still does great damage. That is where the complaints are coming from.
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the mobs may be already dead when the attack goes off
The corollary to this is if you were to hit with those attacks a second earlier, the attacks your teammates were making would be wasted instead of yours. The only negative consequence of such an event (that being one person wasting an attack instead of another) is if the person who is a fraction of a second late looses out on a beneficial side effect of the attack (i.e. siphon life or follow up). Energy melee doesn't have any such powers, so what you're describing seriously doesn't matter.
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It does matter. It's one thing if it happens once in a while. I don't know how many times blasters want to shot off a snipe but by the time it goes off, that mob may be dead, moved around a corner, etc. But typically that is not its main attack. They have other high damage attacks they can use the fire off immediately (but then you can argue that that is their role...)
For an EM character, the two biggest attacks it has are really slow. You don't feel frustrated when you are in the middle of a group and every time you begin to do ET the mob dies while you are looking at your hands glow? If this doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it. I just want people to know that it happens, and they can make their opinions on if they mind that or not.
True, if a mob is dead, then a mob is dead. In a team everyone benefits, we all get the same influence and xp. But I want to feel that I contributed to the team by doing some damage. If not, I could just sit there, and taunt all the mobs to me and let the team take them out. After all, isn't that what a tanker is supposed to do?
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If you have 20% health, should I fire off Energy Transfer to get rid of this guy, or should I hit an inspiration?
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If you're at 20% health and use energy transfer, you shoud die. The universe can't tolerate such tactics.
When I'm that low and worried about dying, I don't look at an inspiration on my tray that can save me and think about it.
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You don't feel frustrated when you are in the middle of a group and every time you begin to do ET the mob dies while you are looking at your hands glow?
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No, because it doesn't happen every time, or even most times. I simply don't see this problem unless I'm hitting minions or damaged lieutenants, when something like energy transfer would be overkill even if I hit.
Of course this is a problem of the types of spawns that are mostly, or entirely, minions (council seems to have a problem with that). That's more of an issue with energy melee's area effect damage capabilities, which I usually don't mind because of the powersets I've paired it with.
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True, if a mob is dead, then a mob is dead. In a team everyone benefits, we all get the same influence and xp. But I want to feel that I contributed to the team by doing some damage.
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This completely ignores the instances where you hit, and ignores my point about someone else wasting his/her attack instead of you. On all those attacks that you use that hit a dead opponent, there would have been someone else hitting a dead opponent were you slightly faster. You haven't proposed why it's worse for this to happen to one character over another when the end result is exactly the same, except that it happens to your character, and at a dubiously high rate at that.
If you're arguing this simply from a 'feel' perspective, then of course you're correct in how you prefer it. I'm not arguing that energy melee doesn't feel slow for those that depend upon energy transfer and total focus. What I find funny here is I see complaints that Em tankers often die before ET or TF finish and that their target often dies before ET or TF finish. I can only imagine the entertainment value of seeing those two situations happening simultaneously, and laughing for minutes afterwards.
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If not, I could just sit there, and taunt all the mobs to me and let the team take them out. After all, isn't that what a tanker is supposed to do?
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You certainly do love extremes. That's why I'm having a hard time believing these complaints when they don't match up with my own experiences. They appear to be exactly that, extremes, and not representative of normal gameplay.
20%, 40% 60%, maybe I shouldn't have picked such a low number. Or maybe I shouldn't give examples since you are only focusing on the examples I may up. My whole point of that paragraph was that your health goes up and down in the middle of a fight. And that you make decisions based on what you see. That was it. Not the amount that you make your decisions on.
Oh, and if you don't feel like you are attacks are slow, then good for you. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, everyone that gets the power set after the nerf knows what the power does, and makes the decision to go with the power set knowing full well what they are getting. Most or the people that had the power before the nerf don't like it now because we picked the power set based on something that doesn't exist anymore (at least in the way we knew it). It is very likely that people will get upset when something they expected to work a certain way all the time, changes all of a sudden, and not for the better.
Oh, and regarding your example on if two people attack the same target. (Here is an example only) If its an EM tanker and a blaster. If the tanker uses Bonesmasher and kills the target, the blaster uses Power Burst less than a second later. Now his attack has a very small chance that it fires off between the tanker killing and his attack going off. If it happens, it was a quick casting power his power goes off hitting nothing. Blaster quickly moves on to next target since he is not stuck in casting time and can use next attack. Same if the blaster kills it and tanker moves on. For the most part, you barely noticed that it happened. Also, depending on the window, if the blaster was pressing the button when the tanker was killing it, they may have targeted another mob and the attack goes off.
Now same tanker and a controller. Tanker uses Bonesmasher, Controller uses Propel. Target is dead, propel still going. Controller gets fustrated because his attack is still going when the target is clearly "captured" already. He can't move on immediately until the casting time is over. Same if Tanker used Energy Transfer and Controller used Crush. Tanker is now stuck in animation when you clearly see your target down.
Now wouldn't it be cool if you can cancel your cast time like a blaster's snipe could? Target is done, ok move, on to the next mob. But you can't.
And extremes? Your right. I should have removed that last statement. I could instead just use all other attacks but those two if I really loved the set but hated those last two powers now. Or I could stop playing the character. Or I could continue playing it and grumble all the time, or I could keep playing it and maybe the Devs would one day change their minds, or I could just love what the devs did and continue playing it to my hearts content, or I could come on the forums and give my opinions on it, or I could ... Yeah, there are many options, I just picked one. Maybe it was the wrong one. Like my decision to attack at 20% health instead of healing. 
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My whole point of that paragraph was that your health goes up and down in the middle of a fight. And that you make decisions based on what you see. That was it. Not the amount that you make your decisions on
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The point of my reply is that, when worried about dying, energy transfer is the wrong attack to use, with any animation.
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Oh, and if you don't feel like you are attacks are slow, then good for you. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, everyone that gets the power set after the nerf knows what the power does, and makes the decision to go with the power set knowing full well what they are getting. Most or the people that had the power before the nerf don't like it now because we picked the power set based on something that doesn't exist anymore
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1st, I never suggested EM doesn't "feel slow", except for those that don't have/depend on TF and ET. So yes, good for me. 2nd, I've had energy transfer long before it was changed. I've been arguing about tanks dying because ET and TF are slow, and dismissing complaints of opponents dying faster than ET and TF animate, not about the set being or feeling slow. As far as hitting dead enemies is concerned, I don't see anything you mentioned that explains why it's better for the blaster to hit the dead enemy than it is for the tanker to hit the dead enemy, outside of a faster animation allowing the tanker to do something else sooner (which is true regardless who gets the kill shot).
...outside of feel and psychological reasons, which I mentioned I'm not arguing.
edit: are you arguing that faster animation times for Energy Transfer and Total Focus would help prevent teammates from wasting their attacks? That's the first I've seen anything of the sort, and has nothing to do with the explanations previously given. Seriously?
I'm not defending energy melee, and I have my own complaints about it, but I find them hard to express among the reports of repeated deaths caused solely by an additional 1.6s in activation, or somesuch.
I'm honestly having a hard time understanding why:
a) someone wants to use either TF or ET with low health, and
b) why someone would want to use TF or ET to finish an enemy off.
I have more of a problem with Barrage being a 6 second recharge tier 1 attack than I do with TF or ET taking a long time to animate.
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The point of my reply is that, when worried about dying, energy transfer is the wrong attack to use, with any animation.
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Ah, I didn't get that from what you wrote. Then I agree.
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1st, I never suggested EM doesn't "feel slow",
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Your right, you didn't. You even mentioned that in the post before. Forgot about it in the heat of writing.
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As far as hitting dead enemies is concerned, I don't see anything you mentioned that explains why it's better for the blaster to hit the dead enemy than it is for the tanker to hit the dead enemy, outside of a faster animation allowing the tanker to do something else sooner (which is true regardless who gets the kill shot).
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I never said it was better. I just wanted to give an example of how it is more apparent and obvious with an EM tank, or any primary or secondary that has attacks that last a long time. And with EM, their two biggest attacks, and their set defining abilities, take a long time to cast.
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edit: are you arguing that faster animation times for Energy Transfer and Total Focus would help prevent teammates from wasting their attacks? That's the first I've seen anything of the sort, and has nothing to do with the explanations previously given. Seriously?
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Not at all, and I don't think I ever mentioned that. Attacks get wasted all the time. It just the sitting there and watching yourself slowly waste an attack is what I'm talking about. Every AT wastes an attack but typically, it is just a second or so. Or actually, its dependent on the power.
And yes, some powers, actually, a lot of powers have cast times that are longer than a second, but its when you start getting closer to the 3 second time frame, or when your attack applies its damage at the very end of the cast time, that is when people start complaining. Remember, unlike other MMOs, this is a fast pace game. Long animation times are a lot more noticeable to players.
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I'm not defending energy melee, and I have my own complaints about it, but I find them hard to express among the reports of repeated deaths caused solely by an additional 1.6s in activation, or somesuch.
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And by the way, this conversation started with me saying that most people complain about... I personally don't like the set because of the longer cast time on ET and the animation. The animation doesn't fit my character concept anymore. And the set feels slow to me.
And if you look at some of my other posts, the only suggestion I ever made about Energy Melee is that if they are going to leave things the way they are, then they should up the damage on Whirling Hands because the set is not an ST target attack anymore, so the Devs should adjust the set accordingly, not just one power. They did that with War Mace and Dark Melee. They adjusted the set, not just one power.
But as you were saying, everything is about perception. I haven't seen anyone datamining the set and comparing it to other sets, so who knows how good/or bad the set really is. But that is the reason I come to the forums. To hear everyone's opinions on something, and learn why people like, or hate things. Just wanted to give my opinions is all.
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I have more of a problem with Barrage being a 6 second recharge tier 1 attack than I do with TF or ET taking a long time to animate.
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While I honestly thought barrage and energy punch would (and should) be swapped with the rebalancing of barrage, I have to say I'm not terribly dissapointed in barrage as a teir 1. The dark/energy I started yesteray because it must suck so bad, would simply 1-shot enemies with barrage with deathshroud doing one or two ticks of damage.
I still don't see why energy punch isn't the mandatory attack.
Yeah, I feel like Barrage should be the Tier 2 now, with that change. I'm a bit torn about the recharge increase, until I remember that Barrage does worthwhile damage when you activate it now. It's more of a pain at lower levels, and I noticed the change when it happened, but it's a lot nicer when you look at it right, especially in later levels. More recharge works quite nicely with it, and even if you don't go for IO sets, it's not going to break your endurance bank to slot it with recharge rather than endurance reduction.
Anyway, I have to say that a long animation time should not be killing anyone, let alone a tanker. Anyone should know their limits and when to activate powers and when not. A Fire/Fire Tanker has plenty of 2-3 second powers to activate, and I never get killed because of firing one off instead of using an inspiration or Healing Flames. And if I let off Incinerate on a foe that is about to die, its my own silly choice, I should have used something else or moved on to another target.
I dunno if the numbers between the sets still put Energy Melee far enough in the lead with ST damage to warrant its lack of or AOE damage, I can't recall what's been said on it. I'd still say Whirling Hands isn't going to unbalance things if it was made a bit more worthwhile also.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
<QR>
I think this issue is partly an issue in perspective. If you played your EM Tanker through the changes (especially to ET) then you are probably going to be more down about the set then if you just started playing one.
The set works as it is, but works isn't necessarily fun (especially when you remember how much smoother it was).
As far as survivability goes, the extra long animation times I've found to impact my EM Tanker (and by proxy, EM Stalker) on occasion but like my DM Tanker, I've learned to plan to work around it (or rather, plan for it). Having said that, EM is definitely one of the clunkier secondaries to play right now, due to the animation times in my opinion. Especially when paired with click heavy primaries such as Fire or Ice (mine is an Ice/EM Tanker and sometimes it makes me want to pull my hair out).
QR
To be honest, I find Total Focus to be quite skippable and perhaps that why I can't understand the complaints about dying during the animations. So far, my level 45 Dark/Energy tank has found no issues with EM on teams or against stronger targets, like AVs. The stunning capabilities make this set very effective when paired with a Primary like Dark. Oppressive Gloom makes sure minions are stunned, add whirling hands and now some LTs are stunned. Add in Bonesmasher and a Energy punch and now the Boss is stunned.
I only every use my heal after the alpha or before the next mob to make sure my health is topped off.
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The set works as it is, but works isn't necessarily fun (especially when you remember how much smoother it was).
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That is the way I feel about EM. I can't play it anymore. I can be careful and deal with survival / inspiration / heal click choices between attacks, but the set is just so darned slow, and the AOE is so bad, and the single target damage isnt far and above the other sets as it should be (in my opinion) for such a single target set.
But its really just about the feel. It feels slow and isnt fun to me, so I have shelved all mine after several attempts to enjoy them.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
If EM were a slow but massively AoE-based set, I'd probably feel way different about it, as I personally consider Brutes and Tankers to be "at their best" when handed AoE tools (for differing reasons). I think Scrappers are generally more ST designed, outside of Spines, so EM would actually not be a bad fit there anymore (now that it's technically balanced).
But as is, I don't think I'll ever be interested in EM as either a Brute or Tanker set anymore. It just doesn't capitalise on either AT's strengths, IMO*. It works for both, but I just don't see it as interesting compared to the rest of the available sets, which, other than Dark (which has its excellent bag of tricks, but still really isn't for me when it comes to Tankers), all have superior AoE ability. To be quite honest, even Dark Melee is better in terms of AoE.
*Not entirely true--EM can capitalise on Tankers' increased survivability. But so do the rest of the sets, in that you can be free-wheeling about dropping some AoE down, drawing large amounts of aggro (which Tankers are meant to do), and surviving it. Basically, AoE helps a Tanker do their job, and a Tanker's stats help in being able to feel safe using AoE attacks.
But then you could kind of say the samething about Stone and Super Strength too no?
I don't disagree that EM would be more attractive with more AOE btw.
Not to beat an already-nerfed horse, but it was always strange to me from a game-theory perspective that the EM heavy-hitters were so fast-animating in the first place. I mean, here is the biggest pair of melee attacks in any set, including the single highest-damage melee attack in the game, AND they're a poorly-resisted damage type...AND they're both fast as hell? It just seemed like not giving much incentive for picking other sets (aside from the lack of AoE). Especially for PVP and certain sorts of power-gamers.
I'm not trying to call people names, I just thought it was an oddly lopsided design decision to give so many of the more attractive advantages to those attacks.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
According to Starsman's latest charts, Energy Melee is inferior to Fire as well as Stone in single target attacks, in both damage output and endurance efficiency.
I am not competent to question Starsman's assumptions or data. Numbers above twenty are witchcraft; so are fractions, and the less said about decimals the better.
Still, if those numbers are even partly true, it suggests that Energy Melee has lost its reason to exist. It was balanced around being the pre-eminent single target damage set. It has been usurped in that position by Stone, which has superior control and targeted AoE with control to boot. Fire Melee is its equal in single target damage as well as being the premier set for both AoE and endurance efficiency. The lackluster performance of the rest of Energy Melee also puts it well behind Fire Melee in endurance efficiency, despite the fact that Energy is supposed to take less endurance because it takes your health instead.
It wasn't broken before: it was balanced --- balanced around being a superior single target set with control good enough to take care of a boss, but the weakest performer in AoE. If Starsman's numbers are true, it now has no advantage at all to overcome its obvious disadvantages. In other words, it's now broken, no doubt about it.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
It was not balanced. ET was hella broken, get over it.
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Not to beat an already-nerfed horse, but it was always strange to me from a game-theory perspective that the EM heavy-hitters were so fast-animating in the first place. I mean, here is the biggest pair of melee attacks in any set, including the single highest-damage melee attack in the game, AND they're a poorly-resisted damage type...AND they're both fast as hell? It just seemed like not giving much incentive for picking other sets (aside from the lack of AoE). Especially for PVP and certain sorts of power-gamers.
I'm not trying to call people names, I just thought it was an oddly lopsided design decision to give so many of the more attractive advantages to those attacks.
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The devs apparently agreed with you.
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According to Starsman's latest charts, Energy Melee is inferior to Fire as well as Stone in single target attacks, in both damage output and endurance efficiency.
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I might have read Starsman's charts wrong but it seems to me that Energy Melee is the second best endurance performer (beating SM by a mile) and tied for second with Fire for single target damage.
This kind of jibes with my experience as well (although its been a god's age since I've played FM).
I assume Fire is up there due to lack of mitigation/control/utility and Stone Melee is a notorious end hog due to the speed of its single target attack chain.
I'm not sure I would go as far as to say EM was broken either before or after the "fix" (guess it depends on your definition of broken here). I personally don't think the fix was needed, especially with the toggle fix for PvP.
Heck, most posters agreed with them (and I assume anyone that looked at the numbers). It was a pretty common thing to hear people quip about how overpowered it was. So when it did come, I was hardly surprised at all.
Anyway, I think part of the problem really is thinking about what it used to be. Heck, some people still talk about the glory days of tanking a whole map, like it wasn't stupidly boring and broken. What people need to do is think about where it's at now, and how it compares. Fire/Fire has some longer animating attacks (FSC is equal to Energy Transfer, Combustion is all of .3 seconds shorter than TF, which is hardly noticeable at that point, Greater Fire Sword is 2.33 seconds, a whole .33 seconds faster than ET), and I know I do fine there. As in, I don't think about how SLOW my Fire Tanker is. The complaint was a slowness perception, so that's what I'm discussing there.
Also, my Ice/Energy Tanker is a lot easier to run solo below 35 as well, as it does pretty well for ST damage even before ET. AOEs are nice, but they're less useful solo or on a small team. Energy also has some nice, fast animating attacks in its first three attacks, which are hardly a waste to use if needed. A brute can fire them off first to build up Fury, then unleash the big one. A tanker can use them to help generate more aggro, just focus on the bosses with the heavy attacks (which are more useful for the squishies as well... a squishy can handle a minion or two on them, but can't handle a boss as well).
Looking at Starsman's charts, Stone does seem a little out of whack, there. You could arguably say that EM isn't quite high enough for ST damage looking at that, but it's hardly doing bad. It's equal to Fire, but Fire is supposed to do a lot of damage, as it doesn't have a bunch of nifty stuns to survive more. I'm not sure how you could improve EM much for ST damage... do you want even more damage and recharge in a bigger attack or lower attack?
As for endurance, EM is what, tied for 3rd out of 9 or so in ST damage? That's not bad and wouldn't need a change, I would say.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
It's kinda funny hearing people say that NRG wasn't unbalanced before, sure you had to go 35+ levels to get to the good stuff but when it came it was over-the-top good.
Sure the ET animation is longish but it still hits with all the impact of a runaway freight train. The dev's had a choice of lengthening the cast time or dropping it's damage. I personally think they made the right decision.
ET still feels powerful and, unlike before, the animation now backs this up. I've got two different mid-40s (WP + ice) NRG tanks and they are both still fun to play.
NS
QR
I've said it before, but my fix to EM would involve upping the damage in WH along with the stun chance, and making TF a lesser version of Thunderstrike.
I know Back Alley Brawler as an NPC foe has way more damage than tanks do, but my Stalker winced whenever he saw the ET windup coming. He's /Nin, so I'm pretty sure it would have taken 99% of his health if it landed. Of course, he could kill me with two hits in a row no matter what, but ET just looked like it was going to hurt. A lot.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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According to Starsman's latest charts, Energy Melee is inferior to Fire as well as Stone in single target attacks, in both damage output and endurance efficiency.
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*Clicks link.*
*Looks at charts..*
*scratrches head...*
Fiery Melee 1.8
Energy Melee 1.8...
*scratches head*
EM Inferior to Fire in ST?
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Still, if those numbers are even partly true, it suggests that Energy Melee has lost its reason to exist.
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STUNS STUNS STUNS!!!
While at it, give Stun (The Power) the clover treatment!
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The lackluster performance of the rest of Energy Melee also puts it well behind Fire Melee in endurance efficiency, despite the fact that Energy is supposed to take less endurance because it takes your health instead.
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In theory, fire always been intended to be more end efficient because it's secondary effect is end-free damage.
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If Starsman's numbers are true, it now has no advantage at all to overcome its obvious disadvantages. In other words, it's now broken, no doubt about it.
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You read them wrong but I do agree, sort off. EM needs a counterbalance for the dual nerf (energy punch was the biggest offender, not energy transfer.) I don't think the set is broken, it still has a niche (stuns) but I don't think a set that must self-inflict damage to achieve it's max level of damage should be forced to just perform at its current level.
Giving true damage to Stun (like Clobber) would make the set much better.
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But as is, I don't think I'll ever be interested in EM as either a Brute or Tanker set anymore. It just doesn't capitalise on either AT's strengths, IMO*. It works for both, but I just don't see it as interesting compared to the rest of the available sets, which, other than Dark (which has its excellent bag of tricks, but still really isn't for me when it comes to Tankers), all have superior AoE ability. To be quite honest, even Dark Melee is better in terms of AoE.
*Not entirely true--EM can capitalise on Tankers' increased survivability. But so do the rest of the sets, in that you can be free-wheeling about dropping some AoE down, drawing large amounts of aggro (which Tankers are meant to do), and surviving it. Basically, AoE helps a Tanker do their job, and a Tanker's stats help in being able to feel safe using AoE attacks.
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Coming from a long-time /Ice and /Mace user, one thing about /EM that is often overlooked from a tanker perspective is that /EM is actually not a bad AoE aggro generator. Yes, it is low on AoE damage. However, it had simply beautiful AoE gauntlet. /EM still has good AoE gauntlet, although buffs to /Ice and /Mace have significantly helped those two sets close that gap (and other gaps).
Something about /EM still seems off to me. My only high level experience with it is on a Stalker, and I think Stalkers were the least negatively affected by the changes to /EM. I haven't really had an issue with my /EM Tanker, but he is low level and not played often enough for me to truly judge.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I don't recall anybody defending the energy transfer animation change as a nerf to gauntlet.
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A few individuals did.. the only name I remember is Puretone. *shrug*. I find the inspiration issue to be as much a diversion from the actual complaint as gauntlet is.
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The change to Barrage is also a substantial nerf to Fury for those unlucky enough to have an EM/ brute
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Only the brutes that were relying on a fast cycling barrage, which not all were. My energy melee brute doesn't even have barrage...