dave_p
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Posts
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Joined
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I noticed there was a discussion about poverty a little while ago, and I was thinking about it as I rolled up my first villain on my (heroes) home server. No sugar daddies, no 100M trust funds upon exiting the tutorial, just stark naked poverty--poverty defined as not being able to afford DOs at 12, SOs at 22/27/etc. Now, I've been "retired" from marketeering for almost a year now and know almost nothing about red-side niches anyway, so I figured this would be a good test of how a relatively "casual" player might try to make some money starting fresh following some really easy steps while mostly playing the game.
Day 1: Exit tutorial, after run a couple of intro missions to get some starting inf, I make my way to the BM. I put up my big insps and finish my intro mishes. When done with those, I check back w/the BM to see the insps sold (+125K), and see what generic IOs are going for a good price (compared to recipe/salvage costs). I notice Luck Charms are pretty cheap red-side and start working on 25/30 Acc IOs. Sell drops and bid on what's needed to get my 1st mem badge and back to playing a bit more before calling it quits. Lvl 6, almost no cash, just enough to craft & sell a few IOs.
Day 2: Check BM to see my bids filled. My lack of storage space & no crafting table nearby makes this difficult, so I go for my Raptor Pack, but craft a few lvl 25 Acc IOs first (the 1st 2 days of running around are a PitA, but worth it long run) and place them on sale. Run 3 paper mish, go rob a bank, check the BM, now in Cap near the university. Craft more IOs and sell them for modest profits (maybe 100~200K a slot). Run more missions to 10, run more papers, get zero-G pack. Fill BM slots w/crafted Acc IOs, log for the night. Lvl 11-ish, about 500K.
Day 3: Everything's sold, sitting at over 1M, 25/30 Acc mem badge done (so higher profit margins), craft & sell more IOs. Ding 12 and I have more than enough inf to get every DO I need, so I buy all that I need w/o batting an eye. Join a VG w/a minimal base, continue to play "casually", but make sure my BM slots are full before logging.
<More of the same for a few days and...>
Day 5 or 6 (didn't keep perfect track): I'm sitting at lvl 23 on my vil w/around 18M in the bank and fully SOed out except where I've slotted generic IOs. I've been duoing quite a bit w/a friend whom I've equipped w/all the 25 Acc IOs he needed as well. I've actually memorized the whole Acc line (10-40 anyway) and most of the Rech line as well, cuz well, I need my first FC on red side sooner or later. Am thinking about frankenslotting soon.
So now, I have a steady, if small, stream of income and I suspect I'll have in the 200M range by the time I get FC from previous experiences. All for spending a few extra minutes each day crafting generic IOs (again, the 1st 2 days took a bit longer), which will go faster still once I get FC. Of course, once I hit the 100M mark or so, I'll likely start sniffing around for more lucrative niches for some real profiteering, which will take even less time, but for now, I'm content w/my low level ebilness.
So, are people still complaining about not being able to afford stuff? -
Well, that was pretty unanimous. Same consensus over at the scrapper boards too. Thanks for all the replies; I made a SS/SD, just picked up Rage, and he's pretty kick a** already. Can't wait for FS.
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Quote:Other than the annoyance, Rock Armor is the name of a power. Stone Armor is the name of a power set. But hey, keep calling things by the wrong name; I'm sure it won't affect the quality of your responses at all, even with your rep turned off.Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Rock, Stone, whats the diffrence?Ill call it by either name if I so choose to do so. -
WTH is Rock/*? You've been saying it on other threads too. Please call Stone Armor by its proper name.
EM is good ST but lousy (as in the worst, maybe tied w/Stone) AoE damage. Pick something that has a good aura and/or other tricks. Since Fire, Elec & SD are out, that'd pretty much leave you with Dark. -
Funny, it sounds like the government to be too lazy to create/remember a simple bind that makes an operation leaner, faster and more efficient. So you don't use binds for anything? No keyboard shortcuts in your world?
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Quote:Some day, I'll have a proper gaming mouse, and then you'll see. Oh, you'll all see!Originally Posted by Rylas
Which is why I'm glad I have thumb buttons on my mouse to open the ctrl button up for me.
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Quote:This is an argument of philosophy, so there's no right answer. Your way will work perfectly well, but I will contend nonetheless.Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
My personal philosophy for earth/TA is that multiplicity of controls is not a bad thing. This character is for controlling (and to a lesser extent debuffing) things into smithereens, and that's what I spend my power slots and in-battle time doing.
Powers like glue arrow and poison gas arrow are often suggested as skippable, but I personally wouldn't. The way I look at things is: how many ways can I neutralize a spawn? Stalagmites + stone cages will do it. Volcanic gasses + quicksand will also. EMP arrow will do it, etc, etc.
My Earth/TA has so many AoE (and ST) options, I've gone through many a stretch where I forget I even have EMP Arrow. Just chaining Mites+Cages -> VG -> Mites+Cages -> EMP Arrow should take care of your hard control needs w/little downtime, unless you're on a high DPS team, in which case you don't really even need that much control. For filling in those gaps and leftovers, you have your soft controls, of which QS, EQ & OSA should more than suffice. Of course having PGA & Glue would help, but after a point, you have to ask, what is more beneficial, even more control, or better damage output and/or survivability.
Just thinking about when added control would help, I notice that my Earth/TA is most taxed w/reckless teams and/or adds. I know I can control 1 spawn w/o breaking a sweat. 2 spawns aren't much harder, as long as I haven't been previously depleted. 3 spawns can be controlled for a limited time, but your hard controls will start running out before they recharge, and soft controls only will not mitigate all damage. 4+ exacerbates the situation exponentially--I have controlled 4 separate spawns for limited times, but you can't maintain it for very long.
So in these extreme situations, I find what's most helpful is getting rid of the spawns as quickly as possible--get the 3 spawns to 2 and you have perma-control. Get the 4 to 3 and you have limited perma-control. So damage and debuffs are in order, but of course everyone takes Acid & Disruption (right?), and epic damage powers.
The next order of business is *long term* survival. Your AoE controls tend to attract a lot of aggro, and again, we're talking multiple spawns so assuming only 1 tank, you're on your own for the 2nd & 3rd (&4th) spawns who are going to be really PO'ed at you as soon as the hard controls wear off (and you know that tank will be fighting the supremely locked down spawn, not the one that's just crawling around slowly, but shooting back). Plus soft controls still invite return fire, usually at you. So I like to get my defenses high (and HPs & regen as well)--ranged, and some AoE if I can swing it. This is where the pro-control crowd would prolly like PGA and Glue, I imagine, but I think adding an extra 20-30% or so to my defenses will be more beneficial, because if I go down, it's likely the rest of the team goes down, and getting close to softcapped ranged def (on top of all the soft controls) will keep me alive a lot more effectively than PGA & Glue.
So like I said, that's just my philosophy on how to play the king of all AoE controllers. And yes, it's nice to pile on the controls and be even more kingly--kinda like taking Tough & Weave on a Stone tanker w/Granite, and there are legit reasons & playstyles that call for that too. -
If I had a SD/ELM, I'd use Shift+L Mouse for SC, Shift+R Mouse to activate LR, then L-click to actually cast it. As it stands, I have both powersets separately, and neither uses TP, so I can just use Shift+L Mouse for SC/LR.
I use Shift + L, R & M (the wheel) mousebuttons w/my toons w/multiple targeted AoE powers. The only inconvenience is that w/the Shift+R/M, you only activate the targeting reticle and have to click again to place the power. My Earth/TA's the worst - Quicksand, Oil Slick, Volcanic Gasses, Earthquake are all targeted AoEs. Good thing he doesn't TP as well. I suppose Ctrl would work too, but I use it as a bind for my Vent chat, and don't like binding Alt to anything. -
Quote:This. Granite should be used as a panic button.Originally Posted by Lohenien
My stone tank has soft capped defense outside of granite - the only time I pop into granite is for heavy non s/l/psi damage enemy groups or AVs where I really need more resistance.
Well, no, I use Granite to herd and stuff too (when needed) only because I'm more mobile in Granite than Rooted, and you need mez protection from somewhere (and I hate tele-tanking). For normal combat, Granite should be used as a panic button. In that regard, I've been tempted to spec back into Crystal a few times, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. Sitting in Rock (+Rooted) w/S/L softcapped is more than fine. -
So I have this self-imposed rule about not duplicating powersets within an AT, which means even though I really want to play an ELM/SD scrapper, I already have a DM/SD, so when ELM came to blue-side, I made him ELM/SR. That's fine, it let's me play with more powers and power combos w/my altitis, but I was still missing the AoE goodness that was ELM/SD.
Then came news of GR and the realization that I can just roll up an ELM/SD brute and bring him over to blue-side (I should mention, I really dislike playing red-side and my highest vil atm is like 27). So the question is, how do the ELM/SD scrappers & brutes stack up with each other?
Just as a point of reference, here's a quick ELM/SD build. I already posted a similar question on the Brute boards, but that was more about ELM vs. SS. Here, I'm more interested in how the same power combo compares bet. the two ATs, and not about the build itself.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Technology Brute
Primary Power Set: Electrical Melee
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Charged Brawl -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(9), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Mako-Dam%(13)
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(3), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(48), Aegis-ResDam(50), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(50)
Level 2: Jacobs Ladder -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(21), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(23)
Level 4: True Grit -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(5), Numna-Heal/Rchg(5), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(45), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(46)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(7)
Level 8: Thunder Strike -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(15), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(15), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Oblit-%Dam(19)
Level 10: Active Defense -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(11), HO:Membr(11)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(43), Mrcl-Rcvry+(43), Mrcl-Heal(48)
Level 16: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Chain Induction -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(25), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Mako-Dam%(31)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(37), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(40), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(42), P'Shift-End%(43)
Level 22: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 24: Phalanx Fighting -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 26: Battle Agility -- HO:Enzym(A), HO:Enzym(27), HO:Enzym(27)
Level 28: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(34), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(46), Aegis-Psi/Status(48)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 32: Lightning Rod -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 35: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(36), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Build%(37)
Level 38: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Oblit-%Dam(40)
Level 41: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(42), Zephyr-ResKB(42)
Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 47: Grant Cover -- HO:Enzym(A)
Level 49: Electrifying Fences -- Acc-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
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Just to jump in about softcapping, pretty much all my resist-based toons (Dark, Fire, Elec; tankers & scrappers) softcap S/L def w/o making too many sacrifices (mostly some recharge) and it improves their survivability a ton. My Spines/Dark and Fire/Fire (look, no Parry!) are both AoE beasts and can run X8 (+N according to your preferences) missions for much fun & profit. I often don't even touch my heals on those guys unless I'm facing serious def debuffs or purely non S/L damage, which is fairly uncommon, and for those mobs, you have your resists (and heals) to fall back on.
Layered mitigation is by far and away the way to go, and you really don't have to give up much of anything to get some common defenses to the 30's where you'll start seeing some big differences. Hell, just get your defenses to a point where chewing a small purp caps them and constantly, then just combine everything to purples and you can go throughout life mostly softcapped (your high kill rate will ensure a steady supply of insps). -
Well, not totally new. I rolled up an EM/ELA brute way back when CoV launched, but I mostly play blue-side and have ignored all my vils these many years. With GR coming, I thought I'd roll up a brute (or two) to bring over to the light.
Anyway, I'm looking for some serious AoE goodness running +2(ish)X8 missions so was thinking SS or ELM paired with Shields. I play each of these sets separately, but not as a combo (SD/Axe, WP/SS, ELA/ELM tanks; DM/SD, ELM/SR scrappers). I know the ELM/SD scrapper combo is seriously uber; how does the brute version compare? Does the faster recharging FS & better ST damage tip the scale to SS/SD? Should I just roll both? Opinions?
I cobbled together a couple of quick builds, just to get an idea of what they'd both look like. Any critiques would also be appreciated; I'm sure they can use a lot of tuning.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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Hey, I've been reactivated!
Anyway, I was following this thread a bit while my sub was up. There's not a whole lot more to add to what Local had to advise, but I would totally dump PG Arrow. You have so many controlling powers at your disposal, you'll never really use the thing. I'd also dump *either* Flash or Glue, and I only say either, because you can't dump both (and Stone Prison). Of the two, I find Flash more situationally useful. Pick up CJ and/or Hover for greatly increased combat movement/maneuverability and some defense. Maneuvers for more defense. Hell, Med pool... no, no Med pool for controllers!
I happen to like high def builds--my Earth/TA hits ranged softcap w/few sacrifices--so I redid Local's build a bit w/about the same budget. Either way is fine, just matters what your preferences are.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Earth-TA Controller: Level 50 Technology Controller
Primary Power Set: Earth Control
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fossilize -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(3), Lock-Rchg/Hold(5), Lock-%Hold(7), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(15), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(19)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Stone Cages -- TotHntr-Acc/EndRdx(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Posi-Dam%(5), GravAnch-Hold%(7), TotHntr-Dam%(15)
Level 4: Flash Arrow -- ToHitDeb-I(A)
Level 6: Quicksand -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Ice Arrow -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(11), Lock-Rchg/Hold(11), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(43), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(46), Lock-%Hold(48)
Level 12: Stalagmites -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(13), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(13), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(17), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(17), Stpfy-KB%(19)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(43)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(29), Mrcl-Rcvry+(50)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Earthquake -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb(A), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(23), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(23), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(29)
Level 24: Acid Arrow -- AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(A), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg(25), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(25), AnWeak-%ToHit(34), Achilles-ResDeb%(37)
Level 26: Volcanic Gasses -- UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(A), Lock-Rchg/Hold(27), Posi-Dam%(27), UbrkCons-Dam%(31), G'Wdw-Dam%(31), Lock-%Hold(31)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(40)
Level 32: Animate Stone -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc(34), BldM'dt-Dmg(34)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(36), Posi-Dmg/Rng(36), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Dam%(37), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 38: EMP Arrow -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(39), Lock-Rchg/Hold(39), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(39), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(40), Lock-%Hold(40)
Level 41: Fire Ball -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(42), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), Posi-Dam%(43), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(45), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(48), GftotA-Def(50)
Level 49: Fire Shield -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Containment -
Quote:Oh sure, you have exceptional situations when you need to concentrate more on control & mitigation, but let's face it, the great majority of the time, 2 controllers and a tank should have a decent grasp of the situation where basically, you just wanna contribute to DPS, which spamming AoE immobs do to varying extents. Not saying the team should be relying on the controller's damage, but if you can finish the fight in 20 sec instead of 30, why not?Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Depends highly on the situation. There are definitely groups of enemies that some Controllers have a hard time locking down. And plenty of times where the Ice Slick is indeed useful, since its knockdown blows past boss' natural mezz protection.
But yeah, if you're running into hordes of mez resistant (but not KD resistant) mobs that your tank might not be able to handle, you might wanna communicate your desire to set up Ice Slicks to the other controller. If he's still spamming his immobs, by all means, scream n00b! at him.
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Quote:This. Exactly this. And we all do it to some extent. And yeah, I used to have the same complaint as the OP, but learned to adjust.Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Because people overestimate the importance of their own powers and underestimate the importance of others'.
If the situation is in hand (and hard controls or no, if 2 30+ controllers can't lock down damn near everything w/a tank in tow, there's a lot more going on wrong than misuse of an AoE immob), why not spam the AoE immob? It adds to damage and sets up containment. Is that Ice Slick really keeping your tank alive? Seriously? That tank is that fragile?
A single controller might use a slick as a primary mean of control. On my Ice controller, and on decent teams, I generally eschew it for my immob+Tornado combos instead, cuz really, most ppl can handle getting shot at every once in a while. On my Earth controller, EQ is like about the 4th or 5th line of defense. Slick/EQ's nice for adds, or for opening fights around corners, but once the fight's in hand (as in the tank has acquired most of the aggro), I really think ppl get oversensitive about their precious KD patches being nullified by other tactics (again, see quoted text above).
Now, I fully realize that a great deal of the AoE immob spamming is in fact mindless idiocy or plain ignorance of bad/uninformed controllers, which sometimes can be solved by communication and other times can't. You can complain about it, only form your own teams, or just learn to deal w/it. Consider it an extra challenge in an otherwise Easy Mode, i.e. playing a controller. -
Speaking as a part time Earth Controller, Quicksand isn't so much about the slow, but the -def. I wouldn't even drop it until I had a nice gathering around me, and then they're likely not moving much afterwards.
To the OP, that's a hell of a job getting your E/N def almost capped. My dark tank is well near invincible w/just the S/L capped, but I'll have to re-examine him to see if I can get the E/N portion higher, tho frankly not at the expense of Fireball in my epic.
One thing I will say about your build--IMO, Dark Regen is overslotted for heal & acc. Since you're largely firing into a crowd, I rarely worry about Acc, and let's face it, you go from 0-to-full w/2 or 3 mobs, so I don't worry about the heal aspect much either. I like to frankenslot it to max the rech & end redux w/decent acc & some heal component (and the +end proc, of course), so hitting 3 mobs will get me to full instead of 2, but it'd be up 3 sec faster, and cost less end. I don't think the set bonuses you currently have in there are critical to your build, and my own frankenslotting gets the 2-bonus from Theft & Numina's so get some nice regen #s out of it.
Oh, one last quibble, I think I'd rather drop QS for Hasten, esp if you can spare 1 extra slot from somewhere else (like the Steadfast -KB in Dark Embrace, since you have the BotZs). When it's up, we're talking about dropping almost a full 7 sec from Dark Regen's recharge time, not to mention other goodies like FSC.
Otherwise, kudos on your build. -
Quote:You know, I've been playing since launch, but I take a lot of time off from the game so only have my 39 or 42mo vet badge. I also make (& delete) alts like crazy and spend a lot of time meta-gaming where zero XP is earned (but hey, I have 23 toons w/Field Crafter!). Consequently, on my main server I currently only have 6 50s, but another 7 in their 40s, 7 in their 30s, and 5 more in their 20s (nothing lower atm, but 2 free slots for the next powerset proliferation or whatever). I have various other toons scattered across other servers, but I rarely touch those guys any more (mostly villains, whom I don't play much).Originally Posted by KingSnake
...
By the time GR hits live... I'll more then likely have... 35 LvL 50 toons. (I'm at about 33 now with 2 over 35 and one just about to hit 30... so maybe 36 even...)
How the heck am i going to decide who should go first?! And.. if it's really involved... who gets neglected and who gets the special treatment... ??
I have over 25 different heros and 10 or more villians.. all of whom i pretty much enjoy playing and like there concepts. If i hadent, they would have been scrapped long before lvl 50...
Infact, this whole "end game" concept has had me scrap my plans for any NEW alts. Once i finish the 3 i currently have over lvl 25, I'm not starting any new ones till i know more about what's going to happen. Anyone under 25 gets there costumes saved and deleted tonight. (just incase i want to remake them in GR...) It's been a slow friday for me here at work.. i've had too much time to think on this topic... LOL.
Anyone else in the same boat?
I have 2 toons I've had for over a year at 49 & 48, and honestly, I don't want to level them to 50, cuz that seems like the end of the road. W/end game content, I foresee myself getting all my 40s to 50 in a real hurry. I just can't be motivated to play toons w/o some sort of "progress", I guess, esp since I love the stat-building aspect of most games (MMOs, RPGs, sims, etc). So for me, the prospect of new end game content is 100% win.
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Quote:Really? My mistake. I thought scrappers & tanks still summoned the same pseudopet. City of Data still shows the same, but they haven't been updated in forever it seems. I just checked the latest DB for Mids', but that seems to have completely messed up the tanker values. It still produces obscene #s tho compared to most normal tanker AoE attacks.Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Minor correction. All versions of shield charge used to use the Brute version, then awhile ago they were changed to properly reflect each AT's melee modifiers. Tanker Shield Charge ended up getting a slight boost in the process.
To Calash - Has ELM surpassed SS for AoE damage? FS recharges a ton faster then LR, and has nearly the same radius (tho I'll admit the extra 5' is niiiiice). I wished Stars would update his charts w/ELM in the mix. Granted ELM has other AoE attacks, but w/Rage factored in I'd be surprised if ELM edges out SS. Of course, LR does energy damage which is nice... -
Quote:We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I really think def debuffs are overblown as a threat, esp on a set that has 70% S/L resistance to cover any blow defenses, seeing as how most def debuffs come from lethal damage. My Fire tank w/capped S/L def has never had issues in Cim (none of my tanks do other than my Stony out of Granite, but only when he gets multi-critted). Having said that, I haven't run Praetorians on my Fire tank in a long time--I sorta wonder what all that rad damage would do to him and his less than stellar (~47%) energy res.Originally Posted by Calash
I tend to agree what +def is not a good path for a Fire/, but only due to the lack of and debuff resistance.
Be honest. If you could play SD/SS, wouldn't you take that combo in a heartbeat? Rage + AAO (+FS+SC+FS) would be so freakin' broken.Quote:Ignoring what this does to Consume and Blazing Aura the way I see it Fire/ brings something to SS that no other primary can. Burst Damage. 240% damage boosting for 10 seconds (if timed right). KO Blow and FootStomp with buffs in that range are a beautiful thing to see. 
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Quote:Please show this math. Include any recharge #s that support your case.Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
By math alone, a Pure Fire Tank can out damage ANY Tanker Combo, including the popular SD/Elec.
First, we are (or at least I am) talking about the Fiery Aura primary. The Fire Melee secondary is the highest outputting tanker secondary; there's no argument there. Having said that, and I *LOVE* cones and am very good at maximizing their AoEs (see me wax poetically about Frost in my Ice Melee guide), I would never take Breath of Fire on a */Fire tank.Quote:If you go with a Fire/Fire/Pyre build, youv got 1 Cone, 3 AoEs, and a serious amount of painful ST attacks.
You're talking to someone who leveled his Stone/Ice back before Ice Melee got buffed and noted Mud Pots was my 2nd highest damaging power (Herostats FTW). I know all about damage auras and how much they add up. Again though, we're talking high DPS teams. BA ticks every 2 secs. On a true high DPS team, you're not in the thick of things long enough for BA to add up to a whole lot (and if you are, you're likely not doing it right).Quote:Not to mention Blazing Aura, which does count for alot of damage.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here to be honest, but just to use your SD/Elec build as comparison, both combos get BU so there's no point in comparing that, so basically you are suggesting FE+BA is better than AAO+SC. Even on a F/F/P, which better utilizes FE, that's simply untrue. You're talking about 20sec of every 60-ish seconds (if you had a silly high recharge, it'd be 20 out of ever 45) of 100% damage boost, which also needs to be activated. That's on average a 33~44% damage buff, the same as AAO w/3~4 critters in range. High DPS teams will almost always run for max spawns, so it's trivial to have AAO at 10+ to begin fights (which is the same or better than FE, so even if you happen to value burst damage a ton, AAO wins).Quote:As for the Alpha, as you might possibly be wondering when I said it can out damage a SD/Elec build, is simply this.You do Alpha just like the previously mentioned build, the only diffrence, is that you pump up with 2 BUs that total +180% damage before you jump into that mob, and lets say youv got nothing more then Damage SOs for all your attacks(Who wouldnt?), that adds to the fugly Alpha your about to smack that mob with.(Tankers damage cap is achived before entering the mob.)
Also, Shield Charge (& Lightning Rod, the 1-2 combo that makes SD/Elec so popular) uses scrapper values, so even w/o FE, they're going to far, FAR outdamage most other tanker powers. With max saturation of AAO (common at beginning of fights) + BU and you're going to blow away any F/F/P combo, and since BU, SC & LR all recharge at the same rate (every 30sec or so w/some decent slotting), it'll be up every fight. Finally, there's no reason SD/ELM can't also be packing Fireball. AAO + BU + SC + LR + FB. Every 30 sec (or less). *That* is a way to add some serious damage #s even in the highest DPS teams (hell, at that point, who needs a team?
).
Are you actually trying to say SD is more prone to faceplanting than Fiery Aura? Seriously?Quote:The majority of SD/Elec players dont take the time to jump in and grab additional damage, or possibly cant due to the fact they may fact plant, and they end up not doing near as much damage as the poorly looked apon Fire Tank.
Yeah, I'm just gonna stop here. -
Quote:In a decent steamrolling/high DPS team, the tank shouldn't be that responsible for the damage, just soaking the alpha and setting up a tight grouping for the AoEs. For that, I'd pay more attention to the secondary (cuz tanks still do contribute to overall DPS), epic (Fireball ftw!), and a good taunt aura. For that end, BA is about as bad as it gets, since it has a slow 2s pulse and a to hit requirement (Dark & Elec are in the same boat, and while SD & WP's auras don't last long, they do "stick" faster). Ice & Invul would be by far the best steamrolling tanks. Ice/Fire would be my likely choice for a steamrolling team.Originally Posted by Speculator
On steamrolling teams, Fire/Fire tanks are great. You don't need to stand there and take a beating, just go in and grab the initial aggro. Then you have the offensive firepower to help your team go from spawn to spawn faster.
Oh, and a true steamrolling team would rarely slow down enough to set up some sort of Burn + immob combo, in case you were thinking about that trick. A simple Fire tank + controller duo would be pretty nice tho. -
Fire tanks are awesome... if you get their defenses high enough. My Fire tank (1st tank to 50!) kicks major booty... with 45% S/L def. Guess what, you do that to a Dark or Elec tank and they kick even more booty. Fire's heal is better than Elec's, I'll admit, but pales in comparison to Dark Regen. Elec just has higher #s overall tho save Fire resistance (then again, I'm not all that high on Elec either unless you get those defenses up).
Fire is supposed to sacrifice some mitigation for offense. Compare FA & Shield recently? AAO + SC >>> FE + BA + (lol)Burn. And SD starts off w/better mitigation than FA to boot.
Is Fire good enough to get you through most of the game? Sure it is. Hell, I used to farm demons w/my Fire/EM(!) and did pretty well w/it, even post Burn nerf. You'll just be able to find something else that does a better job at both damage & tanking. -
tl;dr answer, EM sucks. It's prolly my least favorite Tanker secondary. And yeah, it was also my 1st to 50 (Fire/EM). And yeah, I play them all, so in that spirit, you should at least try it out.
I haven't updated my dps tables in a couple of months, but these should still be the most recent stats for EM, SS & Stone. I include Stone as a showcase of what a strong ST/weak AoE powerset *should* look like.
Code:Energy Melee Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA Barrage 58.72 1.33 6 6.864 8.55 37.07 Energy Punch 44.49 0.83 4 5.2 8.56 42.13 Bone Smasher 72.96 1.5 8 8.528 8.56 42.52 Whirling Hands 44.49 2.5 14 13 3.42 16.85 Stun 11.12 1.8 20 10.192 1.09 5.62 Energy Transfer 202.87 2.67 20 10.192 19.90 69.86 Total Focus 158.38 3.3 20 18.512 8.56 46.15
Code:Stone Melee Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA Stone Fist 44.49 0.83 4 5.2 8.56 42.13 Stone Mallet 72.96 1.61 8 8.528 8.56 39.48 Heavy Mallet 101.43 1.63 12 11.856 8.56 54.89 Hurl Boulder 72.96 2.5 8 9.36 7.79 27.64 Tremor 44.49 3.3 14 13.52 3.29 12.96 Seismic Smash 158.38 1.5 20 18.512 8.56 92.30
DPA calc uses arcanatime. I don't wanna spend too much time fixing the formatting, but you should get the idea. ET's DPA is a respectable 70, nerfed to hell & back from its glorious near 200 DPA back in the day. Everything else sucks.Code:Super Strength Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA Jab 30.25 1.07 2 3.536 8.55 22.92 Punch 44.49 1.2 4 5.2 8.56 30.64 Haymaker 72.96 1.5 8 8.528 8.56 42.52 KO Blow 158.38 2.23 25 18.512 8.56 66.66 Hurl 72.96 2.5 8 9.36 7.79 27.64 Foot Stomp 63.17 2.1 20 18.512 3.41 28.15
Also note, Stone Fist (T1, required) is mediocre, but better than Barrage (T1, required). Still, it's Heavy Mallet & Seismic Smash that makes SM's ST tasty. If you wanted EM competitive, you'd have to really bring up ET, EP & BS as often as possible and just ignore Barrage altogether. SS's ST #s are pretty lame, but then you have to add in Rage, which brings them up from the bottom.
AoE for both SM & EM are jokes. Absolutely pales compared to Elec, Fire, Ice or SS, and even Axe, DB & Mace get some nice Cones. DM is in about the same boat. As a tank, I'm usually hitting lots of little things, so I greatly value AoE. If I wanna solo a pylon, I get a scrapper (actually, one of my controllers, but that's a different story).
On the plus side, you have some mitigation through stuns & energy damage. But the stuns aren't always auto, and SM has far better mitigation anyway. The partial energy damage is a straight plus.
All in all, EM's at best a mediocre set, and really one of the bottom sets as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I used to and can still farm a bit w/my Fire/EM, but 1) he's Fire/*, 2) he uses Fireball a lot, and 3) he's IO'ed to the gills. -
Bit of a tangent, but I always see ppl SC'ing into a crowd, which seems like a huge waste of AAO. I mean, it's a cool effect to go "bowling" into a crowd and all, but man, you'd think ppl would want the AAO damage buffs on their (possibly) best AoE attack... And yeah, I always let them gather around me first, then SC at my feet.
BTW, use the TP bind for SC (and any location based power, like Ice Storm).
/bind lshift+lbutton "powexec_name Teleport"
Sub Shield Charge for Teleport and voila, you'll charge right at where your cursor is. For multiple powers, also use mbutton & rbutton. -
Quote:You're leaving out Blazing Aura in comparison, but yeah... FA needs help.Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
SD/Ice is pretty good. AAO boosts the anemic damage of ice. SD/Ice is about 30% faster than fire/ice for completing missions. AAO is much better than FE. Shield Charge is much better than Burn. Healing Flames is much better than .... But, if you are soft capped, which is easy to do, then you are not getting hit often.
Damage Range HO's go great in Frost.
That's another topic tho...
Anyway, Godpants nailed it w/his first sentence. IM's got a bad rap since its early days, and I think unfairly to the point I actually wrote a guide about it (in my sig, and Ribic linked above), cuz I got sick of saying the same damn thing over and over again in IM's defense. And I admit, some of my pro-IM bias comes from the fact that I leveled my IM tank during the bad old days, so the current incarnation just seems supercharged by comparison.
Anyway, IM, IMO, is the perfect combination of offense and mitigation. If you just want offense, you're not going to touch Fiery Melee, but only Stone Melee offers similar mitigation to IM, and SM has horrible AoE damage. Now SM has excellent ST damage and IM has laughable ST damage, but for me, esp for tanks, AoE damage is by far preferable, so I love my Ice Melee (and hate SM & Energy Melee).
And yes, most tanks should be able to survive w/o mitigation help from the secondary, but your teammates can also use the help from a well placed Ice Patch or an insta-held boss (need to stack w/an epic hold, but easily doable), not to mention all the slows built into your attacks. Oh, you can sleep stuff too, but who does that any more?