Unthing

[ QUOTE ]

On the other hand my tank still ended up soloing most of the way to around L35 or so (pre-ED, so it was pretty quick and easy) This was one of the main reasons I never even considered taking Taunt till really late in the game - it's about as much use to a solo as a chocolate teapot!


[/ QUOTE ]
I find taunt is useful even solo, but than I like to corner pull and herd small groups. I always try to build tanks for AoE damage as they are always in the best place to deal it out. If you have moderate-good AoE damage then taunt is good even solo.

Admittedly my highest tank is an Inv/Fire so is very good at AoE damage and my 2nd highest tank is Ice/SS so has pretty good AoE damage too ( Rage + Icicles + Foot Stomp ).

I think we are discussig the wrong thing here anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I 3rd end red in Blazing Aura probably will make more difference to your endurance than the second slot in Fire Shield or Plasma Shield.

[/ QUOTE ]3rd in BA gives 0,06 EPS reduction, 2nd in either of the shields gives only 0,03 reduction....with +3 SO's at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bugger any of that, if i found myself using any attack without an end reduction, in my attack chain, within a specific time period, I'd be slotting the attack with an endurance reduction because the eps of any power used often enough will have a higher overall eps effect upon the build. The eps of armours have to be within the end rec rate for me, then i look at the overall eps rate of my attack chain. 10 out of 10 times i lower my overall end consumption by lowering the endurance cost of my attacks. Whilst i am doing nothing my endurance is fine, its not until i start attacking that i want to watch it. Attack powers have higher endurance costs and the more you use them the more endurance you take. Spamming scorch for example will take up more end than any armour. In short I'd look to lower the endurance cost of my attack chain "within reason" before adding endurance slots to drop anything else by as little 0.03 eps. (The above build has 3 attacks with no end reduction).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, tanks who don't slot end reds in their attacks are probably kidding themselves ( I won't say the same about scrappers ), generally attacks are about 1 end per second each. Armours are from 0.2 to 0.33, Blazing Aura is very expensive for a toggle, at about 1 end per seconds, but then it is a decent attack too, out-performing most AoE attacks when heavily slotted.

Unfortunately you can only slot 6 slots in any power. However whilst part of a tanks job is to do damge, it certainly isn't the primary job, so losing DPS in your attack chain for lastability ( which I would say is very important for tanks ) is very important. This may be at the cost of reduced damage.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it doesn't get rid of the immob problem I'm probably going to ditch the toon, tanking without immob protection is a nightmare. It's not as though I have much to lose.


[/ QUOTE ]
Oh the immob protection seems effectively permanent - it lasts longer than the burn patch and I've only seen multiple CoT dark tentacles actually manage to snare me, and using burn always breaks any existing immob AFAICS.

I've been kinda spoilt playing this game so long without worrying about mez effects at all

[/ QUOTE ]

That is encouraging to know. This means my major Achilles heel after my next level will be -fly ( == knockback protection disabling ), currently -immob is a true pain in the %&£$"%^^&.

[ QUOTE ]

Ok.. hands up who checks tanks build when they team with them.


[/ QUOTE ]
To be honest I generally don't trust tanks ( as a squishy ) until I've seen them fight a few spawns. That doesn't mean I won't help them, just that I won't expect them to save my butt. When they do it is a suprise. After a few spawns I might check their build, however playing a tank is more attitude than anything else. A good tank with a poor build can make a team work great with a debuff defender. A bad tank in the same team ( even with a 'perfect' build ) will mess everything up.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AFAIK you can use it flying, as long as you are close to the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wish!

I've tried, but it just doesn't happen, so I drop hover, initiate burn or icepatch, and get knocked back which leaves my burn or icepatch in midair between where I started, and where I landed. This is undesirable, and seemingly inescapable, unless you want to pop BF's beforehand.

If anyone has EVER landed eiter patch while hovering, please enlighten me. Otherwise, those descriptions are great big fibs and always have been. I've even /bug'd them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm getting Burn next level, so I'll let you know. If it doesn't get rid of the immob problem I'm probably going to ditch the toon, tanking without immob protection is a nightmare. It's not as though I have much to lose.

Generally I am close to the ground most of the time, flying is mostly a gimmick..

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hasten? Cant see how that can help a "pure" tank. Taunt recharges plenty fast enough, I can only really see it helping with Hoarfrost and Hibernate, but with 3SO in these, they should be up enough for when needed. I can only see Hasten being really worth it if you a playing a more skranker build myself.

[/ QUOTE ]Hoarfrost, hibernate, aid self, your AoE attack (which you need both to take more aggro, and mobs to die quicker), ice patch (if you're /ice), and fireball (if you're */*/fire, it's good pullling and aggroing tool). Also, hasten allows you to slot for more end than rech, meaning that you're likely to stay fighting longer.

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed out the best one. Energy Absorbtion.

With Hasten up and 3 SOs it recharges every 22 seconds and it has a 45 seconds duration, so provided you are surrounded by enough enemies, that's a full end bar every 22 seconds and you are double stacked with it's defence buff. Also it provides a reasonable taunt effect and an end drain too.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I found Build Up to be a bit rubbish with the Fire secondary, the animations of the attacks are too long.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fiery Embrace -> Build UP -> Combustion -> Burn -> Firesword Circle
Works really well, even better in i7, AoE distruction


[/ QUOTE ]
The removal of the pause in FSC and the use of Burn may make it more effective. I just found that I can't complete an attack chain of GFS,Incinerate,FSC and Combustion before it runs out.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have Taunt at level 47. I don't see the point. You should get it earlier ( level 24 perhaps ) or not bother with it at all. I suggest the former.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find it easy enough to maintain aggro through AoEs and my aura (usually hits due to perma fort and tactics), so I feel I would be better off getting other powers beforehand. Also with Taunts 5 person limit it strikes me that it isnt the power it once was . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't the power it once was, but then neither are any of the others post AoE limits and ED. My point was if you spend 47 levels without it why would you want it?

Personally I love taunt and my attempt to leave it until level 24 on my Ice tank failed miserably at level 10 or 12. The use of ranged aggro generation allows you to do lovely corner pulling tricks more safely and quickly which are ideal for concentrating your AoE destruction.

I would 6 slot Combustion sooner.

I found Build Up to be a bit rubbish with the Fire secondary, the animations of the attacks are too long.

Do Fire controllers get an AoE immob? Otherwise Burn is not a great power.

You have Taunt at level 47. I don't see the point. You should get it earlier ( level 24 perhaps ) or not bother with it at all. I suggest the former.

I 3rd end red in Blazing Aura probably will make more difference to your endurance than the second slot in Fire Shield or Plasma Shield.

[ QUOTE ]

I am not one for recoveries like i used to be myself, i aim to learn and educate now rather than things continue to go haywire for no reason. On 2 different days i could be "why am i having to make these pointless recoveries and why do i bother herding in the first place, after a year of play people should know not to do certain things" to "i fancy a little bit more of a challenge today and i am feeling generally more forgiving", as for minor errors and noob moments we all have them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes haywire and recoveries is fun, that pretty much summed up my gaming last night, whether playing my flying Fire Tank in Striga or later on when I played my scrapper.

I sometimes have days where I really can't be bothered to be proactive and just run in and hit things with the aura on, taunting when appropriate. Other days I will be more proactive ( bossy? ) and drag spawns to prearranged points allowing maximum safety and the best use of AoEs.

I have found that being proactive is certainly more effective, but the teamwork and organisation is normally much more hassle.

PS I feel like I shouldn't be continuing this thread. It has gone on long enough.

I've just started a Fire/Fire and at level 11 it is really fun. I am duoing with a tank ( Ice/Fire ) so together we have pretty good AoE damage from Fireball, 2xCombustions and Fire Breath. Fire Blast is fun and I'm even not too unimpressed with Ring of Fire ( considering I thought it would be a complete turkey rather than just a slow minor damage dealing power ).

With proper gathering by the tank, the combo works really well. Fire/Fire seems to me to be a team players blaster build.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
allthough fire is the best for taking aggro..

[/ QUOTE ]

is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fire ( actually Pyre ) Mastery is the best aggro manager because it has the normal immob and hold, a blast and has Fireball. Fireball is a 10 target AoE with a 20ft diameter and no knockback and is usable fairly often.

Energy Master has LBE and Energy Torrent, but ET has knockback and is a cone so it is not as useful for maintaining aggro.

Artic mastery has the hold and immob, the blast and Ice Storm, which as a Rain power reduces aggro control.

Earth Mastery again has the hold and immob, but has an AoE sleep which is possibly good for aggro control, as mezzes make them angry but probably isn't up often enough, and also has a DoT AOE which again is slow recharge.

So I would probably agree that the Fire Epic is the best aggro manager.

For damage mitigation, I suspect you would choose differently.

So many kittens dead ...

[ QUOTE ]

then you get integration at 16 and it's like a different game 3 slot it with heals at 17 and you are regenning pretty damn well and have great status protection.

i don't want to sound negative about regen here, i just want to impress upon you the importance of getting it up to level 16 before deciding it's not for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, regen pre 16 is a bit odd, relying on a clicky heal and slightly better than normal regen rate. At low levels don't underestimate the importance of reconstruction. This is your best survival power and should be slotted equally with recharge and heals.

RI and EF effect the anchor the same as the others in the AOE. Generally I would say that, unless you have a very well trained team you are better off spreading anchors among the enemies most likely to die last ( generally lts, but sometimes bosses ).

I have never noticed either the buff or the debuff of Mutation and I'm sure someone once said that they removed the weakened bit. I generally am not a fan of res powers as if you have to use them then your team is doing something wrong, so I'd rather get more protection for them ( either buff or debuff ). Most people disagree with me though.

I had a similar thing with Unthing.

I played him in I3 ( first character on Union and 2nd character in total ), got him up to having Instant Healing wonderfulness in I4, managed to work out how to play him in I5 and finally gave up on him in I6 after a failed concept respec ( perma-whirlwind + tactics ).

I recently dug him out to try and see what he was like, generally I was impressed, despite having a slightly strange build, he was fun and flew through invincible Carnie missions solo with only a few deaths. He worked well in teams too.

So I would advise to have a break and come back to it later after some alting. Sometimes characters just lose their appeal.

[ QUOTE ]
My 2nd ever toon was a tank and I ditched him as boring by lvl 7ish. I think I expected to play him as a bigger slower scrapper which of course he wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think of a tank as a brute version of a controller. Your job is to get the enemy to attack you so the rest of the team is safer. You do this by being the biggest nastiest looking hero in the group.

Ideally a tank should initiate the combat and collect the enemies in a nice group(1), all attacking the tank, so that the rest of the team can use their powers most effectively. It is best if they are all in melee with the tank as this means that AoE will hit all of the enemies*. Blasters can fire without restraint ( assumming they don't cause knockback ), controllers can control the most serious threats and scrappers can cut down the enemies without being in danger. Defenders should probably be using their powers to help the tank survive and the rest of the team

*This really is the best reason to have a tank in the group, a tank who gathers up enemies is a really good teammate to anyone with nice AoE attacks.

As someone else suggested read Tanking for Teams: The Anvil .

Note that if you want to solo with the same build as teaming you are best off using much the same tactics ( corner pull and herding ) and relying on damage Aura and AoEs to wipe out the minions and use your single target attacks on the big guys. At low levels this can be hard though.

I'm pretty much the same, using the recharging of Rage as a warning. I normally activate the new Rage during the no attack period some I can come out with a KO blow or a Foot Stomp, unless I have something better to do ( activating Hoarfrost or Hibernating ).

However it did REALLY annoy me having only 1 recharge because sometimes Rage was down for 20-30 seconds because Hasten wasn't up for most of the Rage duration ( as happens every now and then ).

I tend to rely on Rage a fair bit, as I have Icicles and Foot Stomp with no ACCs in them, having to wait another 10 seconds after the end of the crash to use Foot Stomp and have half a chance of hitting would infuriate me.

[ QUOTE ]
sorry to have to say this but the fire sword powers are the main damage dealers of fire tanks i still find burn handy but acrobatics and combat jumping does help quite a bit from knockback

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a CONCEPT build. I know the Fire Sword powers are good because I have a Inv/Fire tank, combustion and fire Sword Circle are about equal damage-wise on him, I am relying on Blazing Aura to help make up for FSC. On this character I don't want them on this because they break the look.
Combat Jumping does nothing to knockback. It helps against immobs.
Hover seems to deal with my knockback problems quite well, the only time I am in trouble is when I get -flyed. Taking acrobatics ( 3 powers and a whole power pool ) will take too many powers and will wreck the build.

I would choose powers in a different order, however I'm assuming this is a respec build, what level are you?

Rage needs 2 recharge enhancements with 3 slotted Hasten, in order to be perma. That way it will always be available before or during the Rage crash. I would slot Rage for to hit buffs rather than invincibility, the base value for Rage is far better ( 20% rather than ~5% ) and invincibilty is fickle ( you need enemies in melee range for it to work ).

Is there any reason you want Whirlwind? I can't think of any practical use for it that Handclap couldn't do better.

I would consider slotting up Taunt a bit. 3-4 is probably enough, I have 6 on my Inv/Fire because I have it slotted for range.

[ QUOTE ]
Drop Icicles for it I'd say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Icicles should really be considered an AoE attack, so I would suggest that you either 6 slot it ( 1xACC,2-3 DAM, 2-3END ) or don't pick it at all.

It will probably do more damage over time than Whirling Axe and cost less, but doesn't have the Knockdown/back that Whirling Axe has.

My suggestion is Dark/Sonic for a solo defender. I have a Sonic/Dark Corruptor and he is great and I kind of wish that I made him a defender. Although technically he would be an offender as he uses his powers mainly to defeat rather than to defender.

The reasons...

a) Dark/ has Darkest Night, a toggle debuff. This is -DAM and -ACC so effectively is a kind of armour.
b) Dark/ has a debuffing and strong AoE heal, it provides -DAM and -ACC on the target and heals all around you.
c) Dark has Tar Pit, a great -RES power ( ~40% ) that is permable with 3 recharges. -RES powers improve the performance of -DAM debuffs and make you defeat things faster ( essential for a solo defender ).
d) Dark has Fearsome Stare, a wide Cone , permable Fear attack that basically takes everything out of the fight. Because it is a clicky, it doesn't matter if you get stunned/held etc.
e) Sonic has -res on every attack. These have approximately the same duration as the recharge of the attack for single target attacks, meaning you can stack a 60% ( * 1.6 damage ) just from using all your single target attacks, if you use Howl too you can get 80% some of the time ( about 60-70% of the time ). This -RES also improves -DAM.
f) Dark has a single target hold.
g) Dark has a stealth toggle.
h) The combination of a) and g) with c) allows you to do incredibly impressive corner pulls into a tar pit, allowing you to hit many multiple enemies with Fearsome Stare and Howl.
h) All these things work just as well on a team as solo.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say Ice/SS personally but that's just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ice/SS is lovely, if a little bit of a late starter. I have got progressively and noticeably better every level since about level 20 and truly it is the most fun I've had tanking.

[ QUOTE ]

Secondary choices would be: Ice, Battle Axe or War Mace (I think... I don't play CoV much so can't remember exactly what the choices are!!)


[/ QUOTE ]
What about the Fire secondary. It is different enough to the Fire primary for brutes as Combustion is such a nice power for a tank.

Personally I would go for a concept and stick with it.

Both Stone and Fire are slightly restrictive on travel power. Fire is best with Jumping as you don't have knockback protection or immob protection ( I'm being stubborn and am trying to get a Flying Fire tank to work ). Stone is best with teleport as both Rooted and Granite have -jump and -fly on them so teleport is needed for such tricky maneuvers as going up stairs, without having to detoggle you mez protection.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, is it just me or is assault not really worth having considering the constant endurane drain?

[/ QUOTE ]

For small teams it's probably not worth the endurance. For large teams, it probably is. For masterminds I think it is too. Effectively you are reducing your own ability to attack / defend because you have about 13% less endurance recovery, but you are boosting the ability to do damage of everyone on the team by 5-10%. If you have something else you could be doing with that endurance that gives a better return it probably isn't worthwhile.

My suggestion of using Howl would use about 1 endurance per second and provides a 15% res debuff and does damage. This is about 3 times as expensive as Assault, but it is a better power for soloing as it does damage. It won't affect as many enemies, but in a coordinated team is probably more effective. I would note that it is a narrow cone, so you won't be able to get the whole spawn unless you have someone who is good at aggro control.

I don't think it is really that clear cut, but Howl is more active and so, in my view only, more fun.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we need a word for a character who can hold aggro properly then?

[/ QUOTE ]
ther allready is: Blaster ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]
Blasters can hold aggro fine, they just don't want it and can't handle it.

I think the nearest word for an aggro holder is a tank ( for example from a wikipedia search 'A Warrior is a class in World of Warcraft that excels in melee combat and playing the role of a tank' ), rather than a Tanker, the CoH archetype.

By choosing the name Tanker for the archetype, Cryptic put the class directly into the role of MMO tank, which is not really very appropriate for the superhero genre. Most superhero hard guys are the hardest hitters and the toughest, they don't do what Tankers do and act more like Brutes.