Unthing

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Having used all 3 sets, my guess is that the debuff is (significantly) stronger for LR (despite what Prima says).

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It could be a decimal point wrong, after all defender Lingering Radiation was 10 times as powerful a -recharge in I4 as the Controller version, I think it was a 3.75 -recharge rather than a 0.375 -recharge. Similarly early smoke grenade was 10 times as much of a debuff as it should have been too.

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Bear in mind too that I7 cuts both ways. While it's good to be missed more if you're a SR Scrapper or Ice Tanker or bubbled by a FF, you'll also miss more against anyone with defense even if you weren't one of those. Your accuracy SOs and MA accuracy bonus help less than when they were applied to your to-hit _before_ defense was subtracted.

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I7 Defence changes do not cut both ways as they didn't change the to hit equation, they just changed the rank and level bonus for critters to be ACC as opposed to base to hit. So rather than an even level AV having a base to hit of 75 in I6 , it now has a base to hit of 50 and an acc of +0.50, resulting in a chance to hit of 50 * ( 1 + 0.5 ) = 75.

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I imagine it is worth getting just for the damage because it looks the same as the other auras, which over time do better DPS than the average PbAoE attack.

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Never did more damage over time then throw spines for me, but then again my scrapper moves out of melee to fire off throw spines to hit as many targets as possible.

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After testing it, I found it didn't. It is more endurance efficient than the others and comes a close 3rd on Damage over time. Being able to ignore the enemies at slivers of health is useful though.

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I was in Croatoa today, with a group fighting Eochai & Jack and we had a dark/ defender in our team. Said defender kept insisting that Twilight Grasp doesn't have and never has had a -Regen component.

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From the i4 patch notes:

# Dark Miasma/Twilight Grasp now debuff the targeted foes’ Regeneration Rate.
# Dark Miasma/Howling Twilight now debuff the targeted foes’ Regeneration Rate.

The powers ingame description has yet to be updated.

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The in game effect for -regen is a set of green rings around the enemy's torso. Twilight grasp, Transfusion and Lingering Radiation all have this effect.

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Most attacks that you plan on using = 2 acc,3 damage,1 recharge redux

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I would say 2 ACCs is completely unnecessary for PvE tanking, if you are doing your tanking right you should have a few enemies around you and the few percentage points of to hit buff you get performs as well as the second ACC in your attacks. Also as a tank you are unlikely to survive against the really high level enemies that you may need 2 ACCs for.

I would generally slot 1x end red in all attacks as a tank running out of endurnace is a dead tank.

Back to the original poster...
My general Inv advice is

Get Temp Invulnerability at level 1, slot it up to 3 or 4 slots early.
Get Bone Smasher at level 4, as above.
Get Unyielding at level 8, slotting is not really a high priority as it makes little difference until higher levels.
Get Invincibilty at level 18, this is one of your best powers so needs 3 slots quickly.
Get Stamina at 20 or 22
Get Tough Hide at 26.

Dull Pain should be 6 slotted by about level 20ish, I would get it and slot it early as even with DOs it works well, slot it for recharge on DOs and recharge/heal on SOs.

Whirling hands is also probably a good plan too. AoEs are good for tanks to both keep aggro and do decent damage.

The passive resistance powers are a bit rubbish, I would leave them until post 20 with the possible exception of Resist Physical Damage.

Also unless you are doing it for concept reasons I would avoid Hover on a tank, in order to be useful it needs 3 speed SOs to get you to standard running speed, this is a lot of slots for a pre travel power that you could spend on defences. Air Superiority is a good alternative as it gives you a nice knockdown attack for keeping bosses on the floor.

My pet theory is that the reason that Dark and Kin don't seem to be as effective as Rad against AVs is something to do with stacking. The Kin and Dark powers easily overlap with default slotting but the Rad one needs heavy slotting for recharge. So maybe the Kin/Dark powers don't actually stack from the same source but the Rad one does.

I found that in large spawns Oppressive Gloom is a death sentence. Cloak of Fear is just fun. However I've only played it as Dark/Dark so I expect things are different with a primary that can't fear bosses.

Dark Regeneration is the most effective heal in the game and is the cornerstone of the set. Unfortunately it costs loads of endurance. Basically when you hit it you get about 1/4 of your hit points per enemy in range so it ends up being a full heal.

Unfortunately endurance is a problem.

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PPPS. the formula is old in the case that caps are now 7,5% and 92,5%.

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That's news to me, where is that from?

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Those are the caps for AVs, I believe minions are still 5% and 95%.

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They aren't new caps if I think they are what they are, just the way the maths end up.

AVs now have high accuracy rather than high to hit.

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I'd drop resilience since you're not taking tought, and pick revive instead. Also, CP is pretty much a waste for regen, esp. one with stamina.

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Fascinating, because I was thinking along same lines when planning my new MA/regen build. Resilience really doesnt seem like it has much effect.. Quick recovery and stamina combined feels almost like overkill recovery..


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With this build on test I can run out of endurance with +3 SOs, although I didn't put an end red in Throw Spines. Spine Burst and Throw Spines are pretty expensive, Energy torrent will be too. Also Quills and FA are quite expensive toggles. So I reckon Conserve power may be useful. I'll know by the time I get to it.

Resilience makes a small difference to damage mitigation, with nothing to stack it with it doesn't make a great deal of difference, Combat Jumping would be just as effective, I was considering getting Revive instead, in fact this is one of the major things I'm not sure of in this Build. However I think the disorient protection might help against some things ( all Malta if I get drained, certain paretorians that managed to stun my tank thru unyielding and of course awakens ). But yes Revive is another option here that I'm considering.

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I have meant to take this thing under discussion several times, but here goes.. if the toHit formula really works like Bridger posted to the thread about debuff changes:
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(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - (To Hit Debuffs * Combat Mod) – Defense) capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)

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Then wouldnt any 'over the top' enhancement put into self-buffs actually make the character more resistant to debuffs of the same sort? Ie, putting def enhancements to,say elude so I'd in essence go 'over' the def cap, help me when Im def debuffed? This is because, as I understand it, the debuffs and buffs are cancelled out BEFORE they are capped in the above formula... Or course, this applies only buffs, not to things like accuracy.

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Correct, def debuffs are normally not a problem because they usually have to hit, especially for defensvie sets as they have def debuff resistance. It is the to hit buffs that the more dangerous thing, however these will get cancelleed out by over slotting in the way you describe.

IIRC The only enemies that cause excessive -def buffs are Antimatter's clockwork and Rularuu. These need to hit to get you so hopefully the 30% buffer should be able to deal with them. If I start seeing more than 4 or 5 debuff icons it is time to run ( or accept my fate gracefully ).

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PS. putting extra on MoG is however propably wasted anyway, I don't think the power is über anymore

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Not uber but certainly useful, although I haven't tried it in I7 yet. Sometimes it helps to have a last line of defence when stuff starts to go wrong.

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PPS. Is there a similar forumla for resistance?

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AFAIK being above the cap with resistance doesn't help at all.

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PPPS. the formula is old in the case that caps are now 7,5% and 92,5%.

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That's news to me, where is that from?

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No point taking Moment of Glory unless you 4 (3 Def 1 Res) slot it even then it is of limited use.

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It gives 70% resistance and defence. I have a 75% cap on resistance, so any res enhancement is mostly wasted. 45% defence will floor any thing I fights to hit, barring to hit buffs, which means I have a 25% buffer for them.

I have found it useful in certain circumstances before, only 1 slotted.

I realy can't think of much that is really more useful.

For my I7 Unthing respec, I was thingking of this. He's currently level 42.

Level: 50
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary: Spines
Secondary: Regeneration
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Lunge==> Acc(1) Dmg(3) Dmg(3) Dmg(46) Rechg(46)
01) --> Fast Healing==> Heal(1) Heal(42) Heal(43)
02) --> Spine Burst==> Acc(2) Dmg(5) Dmg(5) Dmg(15) Rechg(19) Rechg(31)
04) --> Reconstruction==> Rechg(4) Heal(7) Rechg(7) Heal(11) Rechg(15) Heal(19)
06) --> Quick Recovery==> EndMod(6) EndMod(13) EndMod(13)
08) --> Impale==> Acc(8) Dmg(9) Dmg(9) Dmg(11) Rechg(31) EndRdx(34)
10) --> Hasten==> Rechg(10) Rechg(21) Rechg(21)
12) --> Dull Pain==> Rechg(12) Rechg(23) Rechg(23) Heal(36) Heal(37) Heal(39)
14) --> Super Speed==> Run(14)
16) --> Integration==> Heal(16) Heal(17) Heal(17)
18) --> Build Up==> Rechg(18) Rechg(39) Rechg(39)
20) --> Swift==> Run(20)
22) --> Health==> Heal(22)
24) --> Quills==> EndRdx(24) EndRdx(25) EndRdx(25) Dmg(37) Dmg(37) Acc(40)
26) --> Ripper==> Acc(26) Dmg(27) Dmg(27) Dmg(29) Rechg(29) EndRdx(31)
28) --> Instant Healing==> Rechg(28) Rechg(36) Rechg(36) Heal(43)
30) --> Stamina==> EndMod(30) EndMod(40) EndMod(40)
32) --> Throw Spines==> Acc(32) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Rechg(34) EndRdx(34)
35) --> Resilience==> DmgRes(35)
38) --> Moment Of Glory==> DefBuf(38)
41) --> Focused Accuracy==> EndRdx(41) EndRdx(42) EndRdx(42) TH_Buf(43)
44) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Acc(44) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(46)
47) --> Energy Torrent==> Acc(47) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) EndRdx(50) Rechg(50)
49) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(49) Rechg(50)

I'm not too sure on the post 43.

I'm not sure on the level 35 and 38 powers.

The other options are Revive or Combat Jumping ( for melee maneuverability and also it mitigates about as much damage as resilience ). I'm probably going to keep MoG though.

I found that it solved almst all endurance problems from level 27 until level 37 but that was with stamina. At level 38 I got Foot Stomp and suddenly my endurance management went to pot. I do run Icicles 24/7 though.

The endurance cost of Energy Absorption is a bit more than you get for one enemy, when you are surrounded you are completely fine, when you aren't and have only 1 or 2 enemies in range endurance becomes a problem again.

It is great but unfortunately not reliable IMO to forego stamina.

From the Free Prima guide the values for Stalker Spines ( which may be different t o scrappers ) are

Barb Swipe -10% 2 seconds
Lunge -10% 4 seconds
Spine Burst -10% 8 seconds
Impale -10% 8 seconds
Ripper -10% 10 seconds
Throw Spines -20% 10 seconds

From testing an even level Nemesis Lieutenant does 31 melee attacks in 194s, however when I am running Spine Burst he does 31 melee attacks in 207s. Over time this is a 6.3% debuff. I suspect it is really a 10% debuff but with a short duration, not that it makes too much difference.

I guess this would stack with a fast recharging Throw Spines and Spine Burst to make a decent -recharge, I certinaly notice the slowing effect on bosses when I attack them 1 on 1.

Does this information change my build, probably not.

Does anyone know what the -recharge is on quills, I'm trying to work out whether it is good damage mitigation.

I'm assuming it is in the region of 0.2 to 0.4 as people have said it is good, or maybe it stacks.

I imagine it is worth getting just for the damage because it looks the same as the other auras, which over time do better DPS than the average PbAoE attack.

Here are some maths to explain ...

Assuming PFF has 100% defence ( I don't know the real number )

EBTH is enemy base to hit, EFTH is enemy final to hit when you have personal force field on.

I can't remember the exact to hits of various enemies but it rises quite dramatically from +2s to +3s so I would suprised if +3s had 70-90% to hits ( the bosses being the highest ).

I6
EBTH EFTH DM
50 5 90%
60 5 92%
70 5 93%
80 5 94%
90 5 95%

I7
EBTH EFTH DM
50 5 90%
60 6 90%
70 7 90%
80 8 90%
90 9 90%

I6->I7 enemy to hit chance comparison
EBTH
50 100%
60 120%
70 140%
80 160%
90 180%

However as damage increased with higher rank and level enemies the actually increase in the damage received will be worse than this as the hard hittings bosses will hit more often that their minions.

So yes PFF has been nerfed.

If you do the same with the bubbles you give other people, you find a different result. I am assuming 40% defence for the whole set of bubbles, I don't know the actual figure.

I6
EBTH EFTH DM
50 10 80%
60 20 66%
70 30 58%
80 40 50%
90 50 45%

I7
EBTH EFTH DM
50 10 80%
60 12 80%
70 14 80%
80 16 80%
90 18 80%

I6->I7 enemy to hit chance comparison
EBTH
50 100%
60 60%
70 46%
80 40%
90 36%

So basically you are far better at protecting the team by bubbling at the expense of tanking with PFF. This may well change your playstyle, in fact given that you are complaining I'm guessing it does. It does mean that bubblers are more valued in a team nowadays if that is any consolation.

You get 2.5 def base for the first one and 0.5 for every other up to the tenth. This is a total of 14x0.5 = 7.0 defence.

With 3x recharge you will be able to double stacking it all the time.

Meaning that

Unslotted for def = 5 - 14 defence. Resulting in 32 - 41 defence.

Slotted for def = 7.8 - 21.84 de fence. Resulting in 35.32 - 49.36 defence

PS this assumes 27.52 defence from the primary only.

You cap at 45, but any defence from 30 to 45 makes a huge difference in incoming damage. Someone with 45 defence takes half as much damage as someone with 40 defence.

I've always been tempted to add endmods to Energy Absorbtion but I can't really justify it.

Yes I looked at the Mastermind effects and applied the bonus, masterminds being about 0.5 to 0.6 of a defender and controllers being 80% of a defender.

I can self check -res and -dam, that is fine. However the unreliable ones are the to hit debuffs as you need to do 1000+ samples to get a reasonable figure.

Some of the Prima guide things doing even seem to be consistant and they also don't appear to note down damage debuffs correctly, but instead note it's effect ( for example a 30% damage debuff divides damage by 1.3, rather than reducing it by 30%, the prima guide would list this as a 25% damage reduction ).

But as I said in the flash arrow debuff thread in defenders, I guess I just picked the stealth power thinking it was a debuff.

I would get it, knockback is a nightmare when tanking. There are 2 ways of protecting yourself from knockback, acrobatics or hover.

Of the 2 acrobatics is better for mobility but costs more powerpicks ( unless you jump as your travel power ).

However hover is very slow and so needs 3 slots of speed and also makes you very vulnerable when hit by -fly powers ( such as the Tuatha in Croatoa ).

The other debuffs are at a useful level.

Comparing Dark Miasma with Trick Arrow ( Defenders )

Dark miasma
Twilight Grasp -20 dam IIRC a to hit debuff too ( single target )
Darkest night 20% to hit buff, 40%ish -dam, toggle
Fearsome Stare 20% to hit debuff, clicky
Tar Patch 40% -res
Shadow fall 4% defence, stealth, 20% res against N/E/Psi

Trick Arrow
Poison Gas Arrow -30% damage debuff
Disruption Arrow 20% -res
Acid Arrow 20% -res ( almost single target ).
Glue Arrow 30-40% -recharge ( MMs are -20 )
Flash Arrow 5% to hit debuff, stealth.

So basically I just picked up the stealth power thinking it was a debuff. Glue arrow is the low level debuff I should have picked up at level 4. It looks like Trick arrow is decent for -damage, res and recharge but bad for to hit debuff.

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Flash Arrow - only worthwhile before the start of combat. I wish I didn't pick this now, I found out it is about a 5% to hit debuff ( prima guide ) as opposed to the 20% I thought it was.

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Same as smoke grenade? did you see smoke grenade in the guide?

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It's not in there as I only have the free I7 villains pdf. I guess that the to hit debuffs in the Hero Builder are extremely inaccurate.

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The more I look at it, the more I am thinking Hasten is a no brainer for my controller.

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0nce you have hasten you could most likely barely have a use for your secondaries (i know i dont) until you face AV's.

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Really? Oh, because I barely use them now... I'm only level 15.

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You're not serious right?? The secondaries is there for a reason and should be used.

I'm seeing this more and more....people not using their powers....this is what makes the difference between just another player on the team and a good controller...shame on you!

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I agree that the secondary is there for a reason but I currently don't have much I there I can use, I have :-

Entangling Arrow - not worth the animation time, I have nothing to stack with it and would rather use any other power.
Flash Arrow - only worthwhile before the start of combat. I wish I didn't pick this now, I found out it is about a 5% to hit debuff ( prima guide ) as opposed to the 20% I thought it was.
Ice Arrow - used as a backup for Dominate, Dominate has a better duration and does damage. As I get higher level I think I could drop this.

So given that I have picked 3/4 of my available secondary I am not even slightly ashamed.

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Just one more quick point as to why I consider SR broken: all other sets have some form of heal or HP boost. Dark Armour has Dark Regeneration, Invulnerability has Dull Pain, Regen has Dull Pain _and_ Reconstruction. SR doesn't get anything.

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This is very true. However on a team with a level of constant healing ( very common ) an SR will perform better than a regen. You could get Aid Self, but it is a bit cheesy.

Also, assuming you are sustained damage per second, regens die very quickly if the sustained damage increases beyond what they are capable of mitigating, defence and resistance based sets survive better.

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And again, it shouldn't be that an _attack_ set (that even a Regen can take) gives more melee defense than SR's corresponding toggle.

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Actually Cryptics rule of thumb for power of buffs/debuff seems to be approximately
Missable Attack > clicky buff > toggle power >> passive power.

Cryptic also do not seem to distinguish between the power of powers in the primary or secondary. The Auras in some defence sets are equivalent in damage to those in attack sets.

I'm not a great fan of snipes, I find the long animation makes them situational. I would go for either Irradiate and Neutron Bomb or one of those and Choking Cloud.

Choking cloud is a great lock down power, it holds about half the enemies around you most of the time and I've seen it used to great effect. However it is an end hog so it needs to be heavily slotted.

Neutron bomb and Irradiate are reasonable AoEs, for PvE, so long as you aren't worried about aggro AoEs are far more effective than single target attacks.

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ice is vry good now due to issues 7's defense scaling, before ice used to be a joke but now its rocks pvp and pve

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PvE I can agree, after I5 it's been a bit of a joke if you never had Ice Patch to tank with because anything +3 or with high tohit buffs made you useless...

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The defence specific problems tanking +2s and higher in I6 mostly went away when I got Hibernate. I feel my Ice tank can match my Inv tank for ability to tank now. However to hit buffs are still my kryptonite.

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It doesn't have accuracy debuff, no power in the game does. It DOES, however, have a ToHit debuff. No idea how strong though.

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According to the Prima guide. Terrify has no to hit debuff component. You are thinking of Fearsome stare which has a 15%/20% to hit debuff.