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Posts
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Quote:The aim of buffing Tankers defensively is to separate them from the other melee ATs. Raising the damage, which I'm fine with, doesn't do this.I have to ask, what would the aim of buffing Tankers defensively or improving their aggro capabilities?
To make them more appealing to people who would not normally play them?
I sincerely doubt improving their survivability or aggro handling capabilities are going to help sell them to the masses. It's exactly that overspecialization that puts people off. To put it another way, the devs are trying to improve Stalkers; they're not doing it by making them more invisible than they are already.
To improve their soloing and teaming?
Again, more survivability and aggro control is that last thing Tankers need to solo better. They're not dieing to slow them down. And nobody on the team will seriously notice if a Tanker's aggro cap is 20 or 200. Tankers hold aggro and survive fine. IMO, arguably better than they should in both cases considering what the trade off has been.
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Now that Freedom allows you to start on either side with any AT the best thing to do to widen the field is the most extreme:
Put those Stalker fixes in and delete Brutes and Scrappers as ATs.
That way you have an undisputed single target/less durable DPS class and an lower damage, aoe threat generating, high durability tank class.
Just like every other MMO on the planet.
Since that's not going to happen other avenues could be explored, though Tanker is my second favorite AT and Bruising was icing on the already delicious cake in my opinion. -
Quote:That's a problem with the game, not the Tanker.The only real problem with Tankers in general (I don't play them enough to comment on all the individual power sets) is that Brutes are usually "good enough" at tanking while packing more damage. Tankers hold aggro better than Brutes and are harder to kill, but if a team is AoEing spawns down to small clumps of bosses in a few seconds then all the "tank" really needs to do is survive an alpha and then distract a couple of bosses... Brutes can do that just fine. There just aren't that many times where you need the full survivability of a Tanker, or the full aggro management capability... mainly just on small teams running at x8 against purples with few buffs, which is pretty much limited to unusually ambitious PUGs.
What I'd like to see? A -Damage penalty on targets under the effect of Taunt or Gauntlet. That way you're preventing damage to the team regardless of what else is going on. It's unique, it's thematic, and it's desirable at all levels of play (except a few cheaty incarnate trial powers than ignore resistance). It would even bolster up the resistance based sets. -
If you have the ability to softcap either, and the ability to stay out of melee, softcap ranged.
As for why the corrupter lives while the blaster doesn't-- what are the corrupter's power sets? -
How did they 'Raise' scrappers and brutes? Scrapper damage and toughness hasn't changed in years, outside specific sets, and brute damage was reduced.
On SO's there's NO comparison between tanker toughness and brute/scrapper toughness. I've got a level 19 inv tanker I'm tinkering with at the moment and his smash lethal resistance on DOs surpasses most brute sets running toughness on SOs at level 50 (all but inv and elec).
If it weren't for IO defensive bonuses there still would be no question in roles. An SR tanker softcaps on SOs. An SR brute on SOs gets his teeth kicked in trying to tank with his mid 30% defenses. You can't really count outside buffs in this kind of comparison, as they turn any AT into an invincible juggernaut that make both Brute and Tanker a waste of a team slot.
The largest problem with Tankers vs the world these days isn't that the other ATs have been buffed to make them obsolete.
It's the abundance of defense bonuses in IO sets, and even support power sets, being bad game design. -
Quote:While I agree with stronger taunt effects on Tankers (see my earlier post in this very thread), this is a faulty example of why it needs to be done.Team wipe.
You've heard of cones and aoes yes? People queued up the same side as the Brute who doesn't think like a tank and turn the AVs backs to the bulk of a team nor does he think of giving people adequate range, a bit like forcing everyone into a phone box to attack Dreck.
Because and I have answered this question, Brutes generally don't think like Tankers and every AT has some special mechanic.
I don't want stoopid broot killing off stoopid team. I would feel like its pointless even playing the tanker in such a situation.
You could play a tanker, and I could play a brute, we could have 1 defender and 5 blappers and go face an AV, I'd get the team wiped for ya and then ya can sort of tell me what the point of you playing the tanker was.
Being a Tanker doesn't automatically make you run to the far side of an AV to put its back to the team. That's a player thing, not an AT thing. A Tanker could just as easily decide to stay team side. In fact most I've played with do.
Plus the team could move behind the AV as easily as the brute or tanker could. If your hypothetical team wiped because the brute stole aggro they have nobody to blame but themselves.
Also if the Tanker is using Taunt and the Brute isn't the brute won't steal aggro. He just won't. In my experience, anyways. Even on a BAF a Taunt will get Siege or Nightstar to turn to me the instant I hit taunt, no matter what that SS/Fire brute was doing to them. I've never seen it not in dozens of runs - it's how I stop people with two rings who refuse to hop away from getting the team sequestered. Once again if the Brute was using taunt and turning the AV towards the team that's a player problem. -
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I have to ask... for all the suggestions that would make a Tanker more Brute like.
Why not roll a Brute? -
Both factions are about tactics.
Longbow: Don't stand in the nullifier grenade zones (though stone and invulnerability don't really care with capped smash/lethal resistance practically killing the debuff).
Arachnos: Kill any tarantula with a face first.
That's it. Longbow is the more unpredictable: Sometimes a rad warden will ruin your day, especially at +4. Arachnos is all about the tarantula mistresses (lts), though Mu sapping can get aggravating as well over time. -
I agree with if anything strengthen a Tanker's taunt effects to separate them from the herd rather than reach for homogeneity among melee ATs. Brute and Scrapper are already bad enough - there's little reason to play one over the other and the game wouldn't suffer if one or the other were deleted as an AT. Boosting Tanker damage too much more leads to there being even less point behind so many melee ATs.
The largest problem, as DreadShinobi mentioned, is the irony that CoX's lack of need for a 'trinity' team makeup to succeed at challenges leads to obsolescence of said trinity classes.
Tanker aggro control is nice, but not needed - brutes can do it, scrappers can do it, peacebringers and warshades can do it, masterminds with the presence pool can do it, anyone else with the presence pool can do it, controllers and dominators negate the need to do it.
Tanker damage is nice, but since every single AT in the game is a DPS AT it's not a specific draw.
Tanker durability is nice, but since everyone shares the same defense caps, and defense - not resistance - is what turns a team from solid to steamroll who cares? A softcapped(+) team doesn't. Let the enemies run amok. They can waste their attacks trying to kill the petless mastermind for all the good it does them.
What tankers need, more than anything else, is AT specific defense caps - of which theirs should be highest. If tankers are the only ones who can reach 45%+ defense then maybe, maybe, people would care if the AV runs amok. -
I'm not opposed to the idea of getting the damage cap bumped for Tankers - though it shouldn't be 775, as they have a higher base damage modifier than Brutes.
edit: 480 sounds good.
On the original topic tanker defense mods are still awesome to build around. My own wp tanker is softcapped to everything, including psi, and didn't really sacrifice anything for it (except build up). With judgement and fireball he mows through whatever I want him to. He's slower than my sm/wp brute, but not by a huge margin.
Incarnate Tankers are more powerful than Incarnate Brutes overall, as every single incarnate power so far favors them
Destiny? Higher health max gets more mileage out of Rebirth. HIgher base resistances and defenses let the bonuses from Barrier be more effective for longer.
Reactive - I mean Interface? Bonus damage that ignores the cap. Stacks with bruising. What's not to like?
Lore - Keep the damn things alive for the duration thanks to superior aggro control.
Judgement - Nuke damage on a tanker is more noticeable for what it does to their soloing than it is on a brute.
In my opinion, glass ceiling or not, Tankers are not in a bad state. -
These days it's not a fury killer in the slightest. The changes to fury generation were made to keep your bonus high going spawn to spawn - what's a 4 second animation to that?
And it's always hilarious to put on auto and bash a boss to death with, as they stagger to their feet and get knocked back over and over and over again. -
A Shield/SS tanker can outdamage a lot of brute combos. As can Fire/anything. There exist options for those who want Brute like damage with Tanker resilience.
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Quote:That is exactly what it means. Kinetics buffs are indeed already imbalanced... but they're imbalanced around the fact that other buff/debuffs sets are equally imbalanced and desirable. Allowing any kind of mixing and matching leads *exactly* to the grab one or two powers of a set to eliminate the need for the rest of the set mentality I described earlier.> This is something many free form people can't seem to get their head around: That by advocating a free form system they are also simultaneously actually giving themselves less options because things will get homogenized in the name of balance.
I see. So if I say Kinettics right now on a Troller makes it Ubber, what does that mean!?!?
Its already unbalanced!?!? Aha!?!?
Please read some of the posts about Max Value limit.. as far as Buffs/DeBuffs/ etc... are concerned.
Even with your arbitrary rules, which seem to mostly say "You can mix attack sets, that's it", you will still run into the "Rage for EVERYONE" of my earlier post. Even with your max value. It's not about stacking Rage and Build up for ultimate damage - it's about making rage accessible to sets that aren't balanced around its presence, like superstrength is. If you want to see what happens when Rage is allowed off its leash you have to look no further than the Brute forums and the multitude of SS/Fire threads. What makes the combo tick is Rage beefing up Burn, and Fiery Embrace beefing up Footstomp.
And they both use entirely different mechanics to do so, so your max value wouldn't matter UNLESS it was set lower than the buff from either.
That's the real trick about this kind of thing. It's really not about stacking like bonuses. Force Field Generator + Ice Domination's shields = nice. Force Field Generator + Empathy's healing = nobody ever plays a Defender empath again.
The more exclusions you have to make for the sake of balance the less desirable the end product becomes. Not (just) because of the way it clamps down on min/max power but simply for a truth of game design:
Players REALLY hate being told what they can and can't take.
I still know people who are angry, yes angry, that Katana and Claws didn't get one handed animations so they can be paired with Shield Defense. They hate seeing primaries or secondaries greyed out on the character generation screen. Hate it.
This would be worse. -
Talen's right. It would be a lot of work for very little gain. Balance would be almost impossible without stupidly heavy nerfage or restrictions - and if you're going to heavily nerf/restrict it, why put the system in?
All brutes would do well to splash superstrength for rage and footstomp, (or katana/broadsword for parry).
All defenders would do well to splash traps for Forcefield generator.
All controllers would do well to spash illusion for phantom army.
All blasters would do well to splash ice for Blizzard.
All scrappers would do well to reroll as brutes, so they can splash Rage and Footstomp.
All tankers would do well to reroll as brutes, so they can splash Rage and Footstomp. After all, they're the only AT being denied the ability to take two of their primary.
All masterminds would do well to grab one of the level 18 pseudo-pets (gang war, etc).
Slapping a buff/debuff meter or damage meter into the system would force the devs to quantify powers. How do they figure out what is worth what? Rage on any melee is worth any price of admission - how can it be compared with Chain Induction (another same tier power)? -
Christmas event Halos are still missing in action.
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You're a Brute. When all else fails it always comes down to the rock.
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Got hit by this too. Caught me unaware because it didn't charge me to change the face/hair (I was using a hood, so the hair didn't change). I made some color changes, hit apply, and didn't even notice until I got back to the character select screen.
At least the winter event is almost here to unlock it again. -
Quote:I hope you're right. There's a lot of problems with CoX that could be resolved with a new game engine.Ignore what the people who pay $15 per month to post on these forums tell you. There are plans for a CoH2.
(Then again they'd probably just use the MMO engine that's being used currently in pretty much every new game. That would suck.)
Given how badly every other sequel has tanked I'm pretty confident in my assessment. Maybe if Guild Wars 2 does exceptionally well they'll take the plunge.
Either way if the rule is to ignore people who pay 15 bucks per month to post on forums neither of us are to be believed so we just won't know until it's announced. -
They'd have to redo the skeleton to incorporate anything BESIDES the occasional asymmetrical piece. Which would mean redoing all the emotes in the game, and all the animations. Probably not high on the priority list.
edit: Well, for legs anyways. I suppose they already have the robot arms upper body which shows that the upper body at least can handle arms of different sizes. Regardless, I don't think we'd ever see a part size slider. -
There's not. They registered the domain to prevent someone from claim jumping it, but they know historically sequel MMOs (EQ2, FF14) do terribly so there's been no real effort put forward. Knowing there's only one kick at the can is a big part of why they're putting a push on updating this old clunker.
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Nah. That would be annoying in pvp, where moving around a corner is a great way to counter being AS'd. Not that AS hurts too badly in modern pvp, mind you, but it's still a hit best avoided.
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Quote:Why? Both Pokemon and MTG have been licences to print money for their respective companies. Seems like something marketing would desperately like to tap into. Will they with this? I'm doubtful, but I hope they do as it will theoretically mean better things for the game.The more effort gone into dressing up this lottery-style feature, the more dispiriting it is in its implications for how Paragon Studios views its playerbase.
The repeated comparisons to Magic: The Gathering and Pokemon should be a warning sign.
Like all thing paragon market related I'm content to vote with what I like and what I don't with my wallet... so the more things they put up, the more chances they have to get me to say 'Oh, I like that.' and grab it.
If the super packs tank then they won't focus on them. If they sell well they will and complaints about the system and marketing's perception of the player base will be unjustified. (Or at least irrelevant from a business perspective.) -
Nope. Mastermind. Back in the day, pre invention system, /poison (usually thugs), was ranked right up there with bots/traps for av soloing.
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Dark Consumption does indeed help, though these days (with my cardiac alpha and end proc in dark regen) I have it slotted as an attack.
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Quote:My own dark armor brute (my first character) is dark/dark/soul. Cardiac helps, but I was 50 long before IOs, let alone Incarnate abilities, and I've always made due. Blues are you friend, as are reasonable sized spawns. x8 is cool for showing off, but the damage aura only hits 10 so I prefer x4 and x5 sized spawns.Upon a second viewing it turned out to be the Fury bar.
Was wondering how your endurance got to be so low before the fight even started, Dark Armor isn't that bad of an endurance hog.
I'm guessing you went with Energy Mastery then. That's probably part of my issue, since I went with Soul Mastery for concept (and no, I haven't even dared to try running Darkest Night). Sigh, maybe I can grind him to 50 one of these days and get Cardiac Alpha unlocked...