Bruising definitely helps against the harder targets, which could otherwise slow a Tanker down. It's a 20% damage increase as long as you use your Tier 1 attack regularly.
The HP boost does help. More HP means more regen over time. It also means that Accolades and +HP bonuses help, even if you have a power like Dull Pain.
Tankers are otherwise good. Yes, they're not the offensive powerhouse of some other ATs, but they can take a much larger beating.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I remember thank Stone/SS, and how he made waves by soloing AVs with pets way back when.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Last Tanker I had was a Stone/SS Tanker that is now long gone...
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By the by, tanks can solo AVs without pets now, thanks to IOs. And now that Incarnate powers are around, it even easier for tanks to solo AVs. And even without Incarnate pets.
Are they 75% of Brutes damage? No. But I think they've gotten better, and they're right where they should be, IMO.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Huh, I'm polishing up a stone/ss/mu speedster tanker right now. VERY fun. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Its been a few years (Since like Issue 6...) since I have stepped back into the tanker forum. Last Tanker I had was a Stone/SS Tanker that is now long gone.
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| So how are Tankers nowadays? |
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| One of the old things that bugged me was that Brutes and Scrappers got 75% of Tanker values on defenses but Tankers did not get no where near 75% of their damage value. Has this changed? |
But tankers gain huge, and I mean HUGE, benefits from incarnate powers. The interface powers that add DOT's to every damaging attack help tankers, proportionally, more than any other archetype. An incarnated tanker does GOOD damage now, you will be pleased, and it gets even better if you choose an AOE heavy toon.
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| How is bruising? |
Bruising is teh nice.
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| Are there any other changes? I know HP got a boost, did that make much of a difference? |
Fire tanks are super awesome again. (OMG you don't know....) Dark tanks with a theft proc and cardiac incarnate are actually decent these days against oddball baddies. Electric tanks can sap as well as some troller builds.
Invuln got fixed, and is a close second to stone now for toughest primary. Well, ok, not THAT close, but invuln is VERY VERY nice now. Unyielding doesn't root you OR debuff you any more, for example.
Hmmmm.... That's about it since I6....
Welcome back!
You forgot to mention Bruising improves Incarnate Lore pets considerably. They'll do more damage for a Tanker than a comparable Scrapper or Brute. Not to mention that they're simply easier to keep alive as a Tanker.
But the situation with the melee ATs is all messed up. Trans-faction ATs did not help things any. Right now the devs are dealing with making Stalkers competitive with Scrappers and Brutes, and this is after they already got not insignificant buffs just in i12.
As mauk2 says, Brutes are broken and the last attempt to fix them met with so much tears they ended up getting buffed instead. Scrappers too are laughing as the Incarnate system made both ATs so tough 99.99% of the game's content is trivial to them and they didn't have to give up any damage potential; they still do better damage than Incarnate Tankers even though not much is a threat to any of the three ATs anymore.
Tankers should have their max damage cap raised to be comparable to Brutes and given the options for the same chance to grow offensively as the other melee ATs get to grow defensively. That or Brutes have their Max HP/Resistance/Damage caps reduced. But I expect either of those things to happen around the 20th of Never.
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How were they buffed? Fury? Never had a problem raising fury before..
They made Fury build faster and decay more slowly. It was made slightly harder go beyond a certain point in the bar, but that damage was more than made up for in consistency and reduced time needed to build Fury.
In the end, Brutes lost no overall damage potential and had their valleys filled in.
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Well the cap for them went down 75 % used to be 850.
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Regardless, at their limits they still do like 80% more damage than Tankers while having only 10% less Max HP and the same Resistance caps. That ratio shouldn't fly.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Well the cap for them went down 75 % used to be 850.
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Even if we adjust for Bruising that's still 60% more ST damage and 80% more AoE. That's 50% and 70% more than they really ought to have.
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I agree, part of what I said in the original post, other ATs are 75% of tankers defense yet Tankers are not 75% of the other ATs offense.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Regardless, at their limits they still do like 80% more damage than Tankers while having only 10% less Max HP and the same Resistance caps. That ratio shouldn't fly.
Even if we adjust for Bruising that's still 60% more ST damage and 80% more AoE. That's 50% and 70% more than they really ought to have. . |
A Shield/SS tanker can outdamage a lot of brute combos. As can Fire/anything. There exist options for those who want Brute like damage with Tanker resilience.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Well, since we all left for Champions Online forever because the devs refused to listen to us about Tankers, the AT has, of course, withered on the vine and is now represented nowhere.
Oh, wait, that didn't happen?
Huh. Embarassing.
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A Shield/SS Tanker is going to be bumping into the damage cap with stacked Rage and 5 enemies in range. Less if they're using Musculature or have a Kin on the team.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
A Shield/SS tanker can outdamage a lot of brute combos. As can Fire/anything. There exist options for those who want Brute like damage with Tanker resilience.
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That's it. Aside from bonus damage, they'll never do better. Dead end.
+Recharge you say? Increasing recharge sees sharp diminishing returns; eventually, you can't make KO Blow come back much faster so it even matters.
Meanwhile, a comparable SS/Shield Brute still has plenty of room to grow both offensively and defensively. The Brute can continue to layer on even more mitigation, not that they're fragile in the first place, and continue to have better damage. If they add more Incarnate powers that buff damage down the line, the Brute has the freedom to build in that direction too. Tanker absolute offensive potential is kneecapped while Brutes enjoy much more potential in that area and retain nearly as much maximum defensive potential.
In a real world example, on a league, that SS/Shield Brute will have so many buffs on them they're not in great fear of dieing. They'll benefit no matter if they're with a Kin, Sonic or bubbler. That Shield/SS Tanker, however, will get nothing from all the Fulcrum Shifts in the world because they hit the cap long ago.
Sheild/SS is an outlier, but not by much. My Incarnate Inv/SS hits the cap too.
Tankers are against a glass ceiling in a way the other melee ATs aren't and it's going to become more evident the deeper we get into the Incarnate system. It only gets worse the more defensive temp powers and buffs that are added to the game that Brutes and Scrappers get their hands on.
I don't think that's fair to Tankers, and in comparison its plain broken for Brutes and Scrappers. I've already had this conversation this week in the Unanswered Pummit Questions thread in regards to the current melee situation overall and how the two ATs at the extremes (Stalkers and Tankers) continue to get the short end of the stick. The devs are TRYING to come to Stalkers aid again, after 10 issues. Lets hope Tankers don't have to wait until i28.
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You mean Stalkers and Tankers?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
A Shield/SS Tanker is going to be bumping into the damage cap with stacked Rage and 5 enemies in range. Less if they're using Musculature or have a Kin on the team.
That's it. Aside from bonus damage, they'll never do better. Dead end. +Recharge you say? Increasing recharge sees sharp diminishing returns; eventually, you can't make KO Blow come back much faster so it even matters. Meanwhile, a comparable SS/Shield Brute still has plenty of room to grow both offensively and defensively. The Brute can continue to layer on even more mitigation, not that they're fragile in the first place, and continue to have better damage. If they add more Incarnate powers that buff damage down the line, the Brute has the freedom to build in that direction too. Tanker absolute offensive potential is kneecapped while Brutes enjoy much more potential in that area and retain nearly as much maximum defensive potential. In a real world example, on a league, that SS/Shield Brute will have so many buffs on them they're not in great fear of dieing. They'll benefit no matter if they're with a Kin, Sonic or bubbler. That Shield/SS Tanker, however, will get nothing from all the Fulcrum Shifts in the world because they hit the cap long ago. Sheild/SS is an outlier, but not by much. My Incarnate Inv/SS hits the cap too. Tankers are against a glass ceiling in a way the other melee ATs aren't and it's going to become more evident the deeper we get into the Incarnate system. It only gets worse the more defensive temp powers and buffs that are added to the game that Brutes and Scrappers get their hands on. I don't think that's fair to Tankers, and in comparison its plain broken for Brutes and Scrappers. I've already had this conversation this week in the Unanswered Pummit Questions thread in regards to the current melee situation overall and how the two ATs at the extremes (Stalkers and Brutes) continue to get the short end of the stick. The devs are TRYING to come to Stalkers aid again, after 10 issues. Lets hope Tankers don't have to wait until i28. . |
Also did you go the Summit?
Also I completely agree with you, IMO, Tanker damage cap should be raised to 775% like Brutes.
It could be justified that they cannot build fury, therefore, its a lot harder for them to reach that potential cap.
The only other options in a trial setting though is:
Non Tanks get one shot -- Which would be hard to balance because for this to work every tank would have to be at or near the AT cap. -- Not all tanks can reach this.
Raising Tankers resistance cap, question here would be why?
I do like the idea of Tankers bringing things like Bruising to teams, although their damage cap should still be raised.
Another interesting idea would be if Tankers brought a debuff that when they hit an opponent it got this debuff. Tankers would receive the biggest bonus from it and the debuff would basically give the tankers "procs" for extra damage. (Think like a fiery embrace)
Other ATs could benefit from it but no where near as much as tankers.
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I did, and went back and fixed it.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
You mean Stalkers and Tankers?
Also did you go the Summit? |
No I did not go the the Pummit. Me being in the same room as the devs would be like crossing the streams bad.
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Also I completely agree with you, IMO, Tanker damage cap should be raised to 775% like Brutes. It could be justified that they cannot build fury, therefore, its a lot harder for them to reach that potential cap. |
I think, if my math is correct, adjusting for AT mods, Bruising and the max HP difference, the Tanker damage cap should be raised from 400 to 478%.
Round up to 480% maybe?
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I'm not opposed to the idea of getting the damage cap bumped for Tankers - though it shouldn't be 775, as they have a higher base damage modifier than Brutes.
edit: 480 sounds good.
On the original topic tanker defense mods are still awesome to build around. My own wp tanker is softcapped to everything, including psi, and didn't really sacrifice anything for it (except build up). With judgement and fireball he mows through whatever I want him to. He's slower than my sm/wp brute, but not by a huge margin.
Incarnate Tankers are more powerful than Incarnate Brutes overall, as every single incarnate power so far favors them
Destiny? Higher health max gets more mileage out of Rebirth. HIgher base resistances and defenses let the bonuses from Barrier be more effective for longer.
Reactive - I mean Interface? Bonus damage that ignores the cap. Stacks with bruising. What's not to like?
Lore - Keep the damn things alive for the duration thanks to superior aggro control.
Judgement - Nuke damage on a tanker is more noticeable for what it does to their soloing than it is on a brute.
In my opinion, glass ceiling or not, Tankers are not in a bad state.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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You mean 480% or 580%? Wasn't sure if you were including base or not.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I did, and went back and fixed it.
No I did not go the the Pummit. Me being in the same room as the devs would be like crossing the streams bad. Well, no, not 775%. It'd be less because of the AT mods. You have to adjust for that, then adjust for the 10% better max HP and to account for Bruising. I think, if my math is correct, adjusting for AT mods, Bruising and the max HP difference, the Tanker damage cap should be raised from 400 to 478%. Round up to 480% maybe? . |
4.80 X .8 = 3.84 + (3.84 X 20) = 4.608
A Brute at damage cap is 7.75 X .75 = 5.8125
A Scrapper is 6.0 (1.2 X 5)
Considering a Brute has Tanker resist/def caps I still think that number is shy.
On another note, why do Scrappers and Stalkers still have a higher regen cap? Yes I know the HP differences but originally the justification *WAY* back in the day (From Geko I believe) was because of Regeneration being available to them...
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
You mean 480% or 580%? Wasn't sure if you were including base or not.
4.80 X .8 = 3.84 + (3.84 X 20) = 4.608 A Brute at damage cap is 7.75 X .75 = 5.8125 A Scrapper is 6.0 (1.2 X 5) Considering a Brute has Tanker resist/def caps I still think that number is shy. |
I'm obviously not doing the math right because I went in and mocked it up in Mids, manually dialing up the Tanker damage cap and came up with a 508% cap (it started at 400%) for Tankers to give them 30% less damage (10% for max HP, 20% for Bruising) than Brutes at cap.
That's my intent, anyways. 30% less damage than Brutes when both are capped.
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Do you mean 30% less as a relative value? In that case, since a capped Brute is at 5.8125, then the target damage level for a Tanker is only 4.06875 (5.8125*0.7). Without Bruising, a Tanker is at 3.2 (0.8*4); if you count Bruising, a Tanker is at 3.84 (0.8*4*1.2). So, right now, a damage capped Tanker does 66% of the damage of a capped Brute.
Funny side note, simply upping the base damage of a Tanker from 0.8 to 0.85 would increase the relative damage of a Tanker to 4.08 (0.85*4*1.2) or 70.2% of a Brute.
Currently, with a Scrapper at 6.0 and a Brute at 5.8125, a Brute does 96.875% of the damage of a Scrapper. As we can all agree, that's way too high given the Brute's higher resist cap, base hp, and hp cap. True, Scrapper Regen cap is higher than Brutes and Tankers, but that's harder to reach than the hp, damage and resist caps (not counting Rest, of course). So long as we're looking at the comparison between Scrappers and Brutes as a way to determine where a Tanker should sit, we've got problems... 
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
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Virtue Server
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Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
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Right, but that has the unfortunate side effect of...upping the base damage of Tankers, which is not something anyone really advocates.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
Funny side note, simply upping the base damage of a Tanker from 0.8 to 0.85 would increase the relative damage of a Tanker to 4.08 (0.85*4*1.2) or 70.2% of a Brute.
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I just want:
-The Tanker's damage cap to reflect that, at the caps, the only real difference between a Tanker and a Brute is 10% max HP. If Brutes are allowed to have that level of potential both defensively and offensively, so should Tankers. And rather than see Brutes nerfed, I want Tanker potential improved.
-Some better tools and options for Tankers realize that potential. Either from the Incarnate system or through the ATOs/Epic/Ancillary pools (so the devs don't have to worry about other ATs getting their hands on them).
As a related aside:
[RANT
This is what incenses me the most about ATOs. Brutes get a Fury generation Bonus. Scrappers get a Critical bonus. Those are things you can't find in ANY IO set or in the Incarnate system. Tankers get a minor +Res proc. What kind of cop-out bull**** is that? You can already get more Resistance from IOs (most people ignore those bonuses in favor of Defense) from three(?) different Incarnate powers (and Barrier is likely to make more of a difference than this proc), from the power pool and from temp powers too numerous to mention.
Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers get something unique and tailor-made for them. Tankers get what feels like an afterthought, something common and generic, with the added twin insults of implying that someone with a high-end Tanker, the kind people would be going to the trouble of ATOs for, is at a loss for getting a tiny bit of resistance and that someone with a Tanker isn't concerned with offense at all.
[/RANT
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Some things you omitted on purpose, because you always omit them to make your case look better - which is basically just lying.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
-The Tanker's damage cap to reflect that, at the caps, the only real difference between a Tanker and a Brute is 10% max HP.
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1) Only 3 Brute secondaries can even hit the Brute HP cap, and even that takes some work.
2) After that the nearest set is WP, of which most builds will be anywhere from 400 to 700 HP away from the cap.
3) HP buffing is so rare, it might as well not even exist.
Some other things you repeatedly omit.
1) Tankers also have 25% higher base HP.
2) Tankers also have 25% higher base DEF to build off of.
3) Tankers also have 25% higher base Resistance to increase their effective HP.
This is for other posters really, since you will just ignore these inconvenient truths or attempt to hand-wave them away.
What are you willing to take away from Tankers to give them such a massive offensive increase?
Also you're rant on ATIOs is off the mark. At best Brutes will get closer to their old fury limit (before the upper limit throttle nerf), with the practical teaming limit being around 70-80%.
Scrappers will be able to go beyond their current damage threshold with ATIOs, they probably make out the best.
I agree that some Tanker builds wont have a use for the +res proc although we don't know how much resistance it is yet.
Just like Brutes, not all Tankers are running around at their Resistance caps for all damage types either.
FWIF, I would have personally have like something that emphasized their ability to shield others from harm directly (for example something that let them absorb % of damage taken by team mate(s) to bring their higher mitigation into play, especially in scenarios where some AoE damage is all but unavoidable).
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Why would you expect anyone to listen to what you have to say after you say something like this?|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Some things you omitted on purpose, because you always omit them to make your case look better - which is basically just lying.
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I stopped reading there. Doubt it's my loss. Maybe if you want to chime in on what has so far been a mature, logical debate with a well-reasoned counterpoint, you should do so without stooping to sounding like a crybaby first?
SchroedingerCat
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And correspondingly higher regeneration as a result.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
1) Tankers also have 25% higher base HP. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Its been a few years (Since like Issue 6...) since I have stepped back into the tanker forum. Last Tanker I had was a Stone/SS Tanker that is now long gone.
So how are Tankers nowadays? One of the old things that bugged me was that Brutes and Scrappers got 75% of Tanker values on defenses but Tankers did not get no where near 75% of their damage value. Has this changed?
How is bruising? Are there any other changes? I know HP got a boost, did that make much of a difference?