Syntax42
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Posts
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Elude won't do anything for you, except against critters with to-hit buffs. SR has capped defense debuff resistance, so you can pretty much ignore debuffs. To-Hit buffs are generally so large that Elude would barely reduce their chance to hit you. Trust me, you will rarely use Elude and you won't notice a difference when you do use it once you have a good build. Keep it if you have the room for it, but don't put any priority on slotting it.
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With Spiritual Core Paragon, Super Jump speed is at 76.8 mph. The cap is 78 mph. With Combat Jumping on, your movement goes from 41.3 mph to 47.2 mph with the Radial boost. I doubt you will even notice that. You're sacrificing a purple set worth of recharge for a bit of movement speed.
RTTC's to-hit debuff is only 3.75%. Critters higher than you will resist some of that. AV's resist more. A +4 AV resists 85% of it, and only takes a 0.56% to-hit debuff from it.
I still think you should aim for 32.5% defenses and use the rest of your slots for recharge. That would help you focus on doing DPS, which is what a Scrapper is supposed to do. You will survive most fights without even needing an inspiration, but the option is there and easy to reach the soft cap when you need it.
I'm not even sure what the best DPS chain is for MA. Eagle's Claw improves the crit chance of your next MA attack within 2 seconds by 33%, so combining that with a big-hitting attack might be good. Ask Werner what the best chain is for MA. He should know. -
DoctorWhat's build is far from optimal too.
He has 8 LOTG sets, which is a waste INF because of the rule of 5's. At least he didn't use 8 LOTG global recharges.
Crushing Impact's 6th slot bonus is not very useful; a proc would be much better.
Elude is over-slotted. You could probably skip it completely.
Some people don't use Shockwave because its an AoE knockback. It can still carry decent sets, like Positron's Blast for recharge bonus.
Slash is not needed. I believe the optimal attack chain for Claws Scrapper is Follow Up -> Focus -> Eviscerate, which requires perma-Hasten levels of recharge. Don't be intimidated by that. You have Quickness, which is equivalent to 2 purple sets. The Spiritual Alpha can also save you INF because it counts as just over 30% global recharge at tier 4. You definitely need Hasten in your build if you want to do real Scrapper DPS, and not be out-DPSed by Defenders and Tankers.
Gaussian's is a great set for positional defense users. Focused Accuracy is a good place to put it.
Combat Jumping stacks with Hover for added defense. I'm not sure if you will need it, though. Slotting your powers, Hover, Weave, adding a Gaussian's set and Steadfast 3% defense should put you at or near the soft-cap, leaving the rest of your slots for recharge bonuses.
Other than that, it would be nice to know the goals for your build. If you just want to hit the soft cap and do the DPS chain mentioned above, that should be fairly simple. I'll try to post a skeleton build for you tomorrow if you haven't come up with a better build by then. -
Quote:While that can work for farming, it does not stay alive on its own against tougher content, especially AVs.Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
Heh, i built a fire/fire/fire without any defense and just went with a little +hp +Regen and a ton of +rech, I run at x8 +2 and it simply mauls through everything
Though I also have a +1000hp heal every 11 seconds
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Regenerative Tissue is a Proc120 and doesn't do you much good in Vengeance.
Gladiator's 3% defense is expensive. You can easily get by without it.
Use Reactive Armor instead of Aegis. Fire and cold damage are rare.
Gaussian's is a waste of 6 slots when going for typed defenses. Only S/L and E/N are important, so you basically get 2.5% defense (1.25% S/L + 1.25% E/N) for 6 slots.
If you drop your defense to 32.5% S/L and E/N you will have more room for recharge bonus and make it easier to achieve perma-Hasten. You aren't soft capped in your current build, so all of that defense from 32.5% and above is wasted when you use a small defense inspiration.
Is there a reason why you took the Spiritual Radial Paragon instead of Core?
Heightened Senses is underslotted. -
Looks fine to me.
The only flaw I see is slotting Gaussian's. When going for typed defense, Gaussian's only grants 2.5% (1.25% S/L + 1.25% E/N) effective defense for 6 slots. It would take a lot of work to change it, so go with that build if you want. -
It looks like you're mixing melee defense (Obliteration) with S/L defense (Kinetic Combat) which is a waste of slots. Only your highest applicable defense category is taken into account when you are attacked, and most melee attacks have a S/L component to them, so the melee defense is wasted.
If you are sure you want Electric/Fire, search the forums for Fiery Aura builds and adapt a good one to work for Electric Melee. -
Shield Wall 3% resistance is a waste of INF on almost any character. It barely reduces incoming damage unless you're a tanker using it to go from 87% to 90% S/L or E resistance, in which case it reduces about 30% of incoming damage. But, its your INF to waste how you want to.
Two KB protections is reasonable. KBs stack and you don't want to be overwhelmed with them.
I think I could make a build with 20% defense (2 small or 1 medium inspiraton to soft cap) and perma-Hasten. For now, take a look at my Spines/Fire build with 32.5% positional defenses. I don't feel the need for Hasten due to the long activation times on Ripper and Spine Burst.
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Quote:You didn't hit the 32.5% mark on any of your defenses except melee. You seemed to have high S/L, F/C, and melee defense, but low on E/N and other vector defenses. It is a bad idea to mix sets that provide mostly vector defense if you are going for typed (S/L+E/N) defense.Originally Posted by DefenderOfFlames
So, this is the new build with the feedback taken into consideration. Did I follow what you guys said? I upped my defences quite a lot.
You should probably just use Mack's build posted above. He hit 32.5% vector defenses which will protect you against almost all attacks. With a small inspiration, you will feel pretty much invincible. It only has one KB protection IO, but defense should help prevent you from getting too many knockbacks stacked on you at once. -
Quote:If you have 90% resistance, you still take 10% of the original damage dealt to you. If you add 45% defense on top of that, you now take 1% of the original damage dealt. Defense is a little more complicated than that, but just realize that stacking both forms of mitigation means you take MUCH LESS damage. There are situations where you will NEED both defense and resistance just to stay alive. Sometimes, teams will have bubblers and you won't need defense in your build, but most of the time your team won't. That's why it is important to be self-reliant as a Tanker when you plan your build.Originally Posted by Clyp_85
You mentioned getting defenses built up to S/L/E...but since I already have good resistances to that is it really necessary?
Other damage types are rare enough that you can ignore them. Crey are the primary source of cold damage at 50, and I can't think of any TFs with them, especially not in large numbers. Circle of Thorns are the primary source of fire damage, and those are only in one mission of one level 50 TF. Psionic damage is more common than those two, but only a few critters use it out of each spawn that has that damage type, so you can depend on your resistance to stay alive against it. Toxic is only common in the Apex TF, and you can pop your Tier 9 to be capped to toxic resistance if your team can't kill the pylons without you tanking.Quote:Wouldn't my inf be better spent building up the defenses to the other damage types or is it the fact that almost all damage has an S/L component with it that makes it a much better option?
Either use your Tier 9 power or use inspirations. It is not wise to go out of your way to protect yourself against something that you won't encounter very often.Quote:What happens when I run up against something I am not well protected against?
Hamidon deals untyped damage (not toxic), meaning nobody can protect themselves from it. A combination of special inspirations dropped by Devouring Earth and regeneration buffs are what it takes to tank Hamidon. There are usually plenty of Tankers when my server does Hami, so don't expect to be a main tank until people get to know you on the server.Quote:I was aware that toxic was very rare in game, but in the cases where I do run into this damage type, does that mean as a tank I would be at a great disadvantage in a hami raid or other content with toxic damage? Will I still be a viable tank in that case?
Positional defense works against Toxic attacks because they still have an attack vector of melee, ranged, or AoE. Don't try to get both positional and S/L+E/N. People choose S/L+E/N because it takes fewer slots, leaving your build with more room for other bonuses, like recharge and +max HP.Quote:Aside from resistance how do I protect myself since there is no typed defense for [toxic]? -
I'm pretty sure you can get both soft-capped S/L+E/N and perma-Dull Pain. It just depends on how much you're willing to spend. I wouldn't be surprised if it took purple sets to get that much recharge. The Spiritual Alpha would make it much easier, and boost your healing from Siphon Life.
I'm sure you can find a build that achieves both the soft cap and high recharge you are looking for if you search. Find one and we can help you modify it to suit your needs, even if it isn't Dark Melee. -
First, figure out your highest DPA power. Next, look at the recharge time on it. After that, figure out how much damage from other attacks you can squeeze into that recharge time, without going too far past it. I think you would have to calculate DPS values for both chains to determine if a pause was better than activating a power while your first attack recharges during the animation.
It seems pretty simple to write a program for. Maybe Mids' should have that as their next built-in feature. If I knew anything about .Net programming, I would volunteer to help write it. -
Do you think a Cold/Sonic Defender would make a better debuffer for that kind of duoing? Mine can debuff around 100%-150% resistance, which should make your DM/SD damage pretty crazy. In addition, perma-Benumb would drop Ghost Widow's hold to a mag 25 or so, which you should be able to ignore with double-stacked Active Defense and a breakfree or two.
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Acrobatics is a waste of endurance. You could have Temperature Protection slotted with a Steadfast Protection KB protection and be fine. A second knockback protection (Blessing of the Zephyr) could go in Super Jump and you would be very close to the jump speed cap while not expending any extra slots to get nearly the same KB protection as Acrobatics.
For Tankers without defense built-in to their power sets, it is usually more practical to aim for 32.5% defense. You can go for either S/L and E/N, or melee, ranged, and AoE. If you plan on farming fire-based critters, F/C defense would help, but fire is a rare damage type in actual game content. At 32.5% defense, you are one small inspiration from the soft cap. Often, you will find that you don't need that much to survive. Your team may have buffs that will put you over the soft cap, too.
Reaching that high of a level of defense is easiest when you use at least 3 pool powers. I use Combat Jumping, Weave, and usually Maneuvers, but Stealth and Hover work too. For a Fire Tanker, Hover would be a bad choice because you need to be on the ground to use Burn.
Don't 6-slot powers, unless you are going for a defense bonus. Even then, it had better be 3.75% to the defense you are going for (vectored or typed) and not the other way around.
Don't 6-slot Consume. Recharge and a bit of accuracy are all you should need. It will fill you up it if hits 5 targets without endurance modification enhancements. Frankenslotting might be best for that power. -
I made a build for Electric/Dark with the goal of being able to tank almost anything well. It features almost capped S/L resistance and 32.5% defense (one small inspiration to soft cap) to all positions. Positional defenses protect you from toxic attacs as well as almost every attack in the game. The only exceptions are a handful of psionic powers and Hamidon's attacks.
Like Findulias said, don't worry about your "weak" resistances. Just use defense to cover those up. Smashing, lethal, and energy are the biggest threats and Electric Armor is set up to outshine most other tankers in incarnate content. Every screenshot I have seen shows more Praetorian Clockwork to fight, which do mostly energy damage.
My build uses the Cardiac Alpha to obtain higher resistances, so endurance reduction in powers was not a high priority. I hope it helps you form a better build.
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Quote:Burn used to have a fear component that made enemies run away immediately. Also, it did its damage over time. In Issue 18 (I think) they changed it to not have a fear, and the majority of the damage is dealt when you trigger the power instead of by the patch. Enemies still run out of it when not taunted, but they are slow to react and treat it like they would any other ground area effect patch, like Rain of Fire or Sleet.Originally Posted by Microcosm
I've heard from several people that scrappers just don't leverage it as well because enemies tend to run away instead of standing in it (no taunt aura). If that is only a fringe case, then FA goes up on my list.
I'm pretty sure only Battle Maiden and her minions had 64% to-hit. If we keep seeing Praetorian Clockwork, defense targets will stay the same. I have not had a chance to look at the test server, but if they do change base to-hit for all critters, they will have to buff defense-based sets to prevent them from becoming obsolete for Tankers. Mixing things up a bit is different from changing the standard, and I think that all they are doing is mixing things up to keep it feeling fresh.Quote:I actually would be shooting for closer to 45% with just sets, because, while 32.5% is a small purple away in normal content, it might be hurting in newer content with enemies having 64% chance tohit. -
If you set the base to-hit to 39% in Mids' you can see the chance to hit +4's. Looking at Doomguide's build, he has over 100% chance to hit (capped at 95%) with only one accuracy enhancement and Tactics on. Without the accuracy enhancement, it is at 88% chance to hit +4's, which is plenty. Sleet's defense debuff would bump that over 95%.
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Here is a build I made for a friend. It isn't the best, but it has more regeneration in HP/s than your build. This is mostly due to having more HP bonus from sets and slotting High Pain Tolerance for healing. It probably doesn't have as much recharge as you might like, but looking at it might help you form your build better. I also noticed your new build dropped below 32.5% S/L defense. You should try to hit that mark because 32.5% + 12.5% from a small inspiration = 45%, aka the soft-cap.
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Quote:Some Tankers get by with just Stamina. You have Stamina and Quick Recovery. If that isn't enough endurance recovery for you, then you need more endurance reduction in your toggles and attacks. Trust me, you will be fine on recovery without slotting for recovery bonuses. Two purples is a waste of influence if you are only getting the recovery bonus.Originally Posted by Flameshot
Some of the more obscure choices, such as the purple's in Stalagmites are there for specific reason. Such as the 4% end recovery.
Maybe you don't understand how defense works. If you have a melee + smashing attack and your melee defense is 20% while your smashing defense is 32.5%, the game ignores your melee defense and only counts your smashing defense in the hit calculation. Most attacks have a damage type and a vector, so you won't need both typed defenses and vector defenses.Quote:I see you're suggesting I lower some of the positional Defenses. This confuses me slightly. I get pretty much slaughtered at the moment by pretty much any mob that debuffs defense. This is because I barely have any on my current build so this was one of the reasons I worked towards those. As for Fire/Cold, I plan on farming Demons and thought the Fire Defenses was a reasonable conclusion?
Defense debuffs reduce ALL of your defenses. The only way to counter them on Willpower is to get more defense. Team buffs and inspirations can help, but don't expect to be an amazingly tough tank against heavy debuffs, like in ITF.
Farming demons may not be playing to your set's strengths. You will have more mitigation against S/L because of your resistance. If you are farming in AE, hand-picking Council and 5th Column critters may be best for you. -
On a Brute with 75 Fury, 2x Rage, and 3 damage IOs in Burn, it does 526 damage in Mids'. On a Scrapper with Power Siphon x5, it does 474 damage (calculated because Mids' doesn't add Power Siphon damage). With other damage buffs, like Fulcrum Shift, the Scrapper will pull ahead.
Why not Shield Defense? It adds a nice damage buff from AAO and would likely be the best single-target damage secondary to pair with KM.
I hope you don't mind using inspirations if you plan on 32.5% defenses. It isn't a build hole if you plan it out beforehand. Going for 32.5% makes it a lot easier to add other bonuses like recharge while still being able to be nearly unkillable. -
Quote:Carefully-selected? The only environments with heavy defense debuffs are ITF and the Battle Maiden fight. Can you think of other situations where almost every attack debuffs defenses?Originally Posted by Sailboat
Only in carefully-selected environments do they get to keep their defense.
Many teams have some form of bubblers or defense buffs, which can give you more cushion than you need to absorb defense debuffs. The only time you should need the bubbles is when you are going up against heavy defense debuffs. Against the minor debuffing enemies, the occasional Maneuvers or other team defense buff is more than adequate.
You might be overestimating defense debuff resistance. Out of the Tanker sets, only Shield Defense can reach 95%. The other sets with DDR (Invuln, Ice, Stone) can reach about 50%. I know that can be the difference between being debuffed into the negatives and being above 0% defense, but you will be getting hit often and have to depend on resistance and healing either way. With the only heal for Invulnerability being on a ~2 minute recharge, Electric and Dark Armor have about the same chance to survive with heals on a 20-40 second recharge.Quote:But externally-added defense is fragile without debuff resistance and it's not "easily" offset. -
I don't know about others, but I prefer short forum exports. Most people will use Mids' to look at builds so they can have the math done for them, making only the link and data chunk important.
Willpower gives typed (smashing, lethal, etc) defenses but you have a lot of sets that give positional (melee, ranged, AoE) defense. Try to avoid using those unless you have exhausted other options.
If you aim for 32.5% defenses, you can soft cap with 1 small inspiration. Anything between 32.5% and 45% is usually wasted. Lowering your defenses might give you more slots to use for things like recharge and HP bonuses. You can easily take out the 6th Titanium Coatings in both of your powers and not suffer because of it. You can also ignore fire and cold defenses.
You're wasting a lot of slots in Quick Recovery. Fire and cold are rare damage types, so you don't need the defense. Damage bonuses from sets add a trivial amount of damage. Your recovery should be high enough that you don't need recovery bonuses from sets.
The 6th Absolute Amazement isn't doing you any good. Toxic damage is rare and 5% extra resistance won't do you much good when you only have ~10% to start off with.
The Hecatomb proc in Boxing is wasted. It should be in the attack you use most often, like Stone Fist. Figure out an attack chain so you aren't randomly pressing buttons as they recharge. The Scrapper forums might be a good place to search on attack chain information.
Regeneration set bonuses are a drop in the bucket when compared to what you get from your powers. Try to get HP up instead.
High Pain Tolerance needs to be slotted for Healing so you get your HP up.
The purple set in Stalagmites is a waste of INF if you aren't going for the recharge bonus. -
For fire-based farming, you should still try to get your fire defenses up even though you have capped resistance. Taking 1% damage is much better than taking 10%.
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Regenerative Tissue gives 4% run speed. You could use that instead of Miracle in Health. A Gaussian's set in Power Siphon would give you 5% and get you almost to the soft cap, but you would have to sacrifice the procs in your attacks. With those changes and Ninja Run on, you would be at 84.3 mph. Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like your recovery is high enough to handle Ninja Run while fighting.
Edit: Also, a Musculature Radial Paragon would boost that to 88.8 mph, which is just fast enough for time travel! Also, I forgot that Ninja Run is suppressed in combat. -
If you think a Willpower Tanker is too weak of a set for you, then you either need a better build or need a set with high resistance. Defensive sets will take spike damage as mentioned before. Also, it is not very difficult to stack defense on any Tanker set.
A lot of people love their Invulnerability Tankers. It seems like they have a hard time looking at the sets objectively when ranking Tanker sets. Some people will even put Invulnerability above Stone Armor for survivability, based on the mobility of Invulnerability.
When ranking Tanker sets it is important to look at two things: resistance and self-healing. Defense is less important because we can reach the soft cap with sets, pool powers, inspirations, and team buffs extremely easily. When facing defense debuffs, inspirations can help overcome them for power sets that lack defense debuff resistance. Self-healing and resistance are more difficult to obtain outside of your chosen power sets. The most important resistances are smashing, lethal, and energy because those are the most commonly dealt damage types at level 50.
Here is how I would rank the sets, based on level 50 IO set slotting:
1. Stone Armor - Granite Armor is the best tanking power hands-down. It pays for that survivability with damage, recharge, and movement penalties, but the latter two can be overcome with good slotting.
2. Electric Armor - Can reach the S/L resistance cap and is capped to energy resistance. Has a good amount of resistance to all other damage types except toxic. Also comes with a decent self-heal.
3. Dark Armor - Has a decent amount of resistance to all damage types, and a heal that can bring it to full health every ~20 seconds, depending on recharge bonuses.
4. Invulnerability - Capped to S/L resistance and easy to get soft-capped defenses. Low resistance to non-S/L damage. Does not have a very good HP/s self-heal, but can reach the max HP cap easier than most sets.
5. Willpower - High regeneration, some resistances, and comes with good defenses.
6. Fiery Aura - Decent resistances and a decent self-heal. This set is considered more for damage than tanking.
7. Shield Defense - Positional defenses protect it against almsot all attacks, but has very low resistances and no self-heal. It can reach 95% defense debuff resistance.
8. Ice Armor - This set only has S/L and E/N defenses and no self-heal. It can only reach about 50% defense debuff resistance, which means your primary form of mitigation may fail under heavy debuffs.
It is important to mention that ANY Tanker can get the job done in current content. Your skill, strategy, and team matters more than your build. Inspirations can also make up the difference in power sets for a limited time. You should still try to have the best build you can for your power set so nobody on your team (like the healer) has to pick up the slack.