Memphis_Bill

Sure. There's a market for *anything.* Create a goat vomit and camel snot sandwich, and someone will call it a "delicacy" and sell it for $500. The question is, is there a viable market for it - one big enough to even consider starting development of such a thing.

Yes, most people use the Windows desktop as a default. There are start menu replacement applications - far easier to create than what you're talking about. How often do you see them used? Some people use them, sure. A large minority? No.

The majority of windows "modifications" I see tend to be skinning, just making windows look a little different... and even THAT can interfere with programs (for instance, WindowBlinds and City of Heroes have a history of not getting along.)

Don't have recent data. Now, as you're looking at those, how many are in a business environment, where this would not be allowed, period? Or a school environment? Or are being used for "servers" (yes, even running a desktop version of Windows - I see this fairly often in small businesses.) Cut all those out of your market.

Now how many of what's left are too old to even consider running the application at all? I still see people with 10 year old desktops, WinXP, 128 Mb RAM. Obviously they're not running COH (I'll get to that in a second) but they're not going to be able to run your desktop either.

Or are we limiting this, for hardware/software reasons, to Windows Vista or Win7? You've cut your market down farther there - and not all those machines will have the horsepower to run the desktop you describe, either. (netbooks, low cost notebooks, low cost PCs... which, honestly, most of them are.)

Now, of the machines left, how many are owned by someone who would be interested?

Does that projection make it financially worthwhile?



You would be *starting from scratch,* not "converting atlas park." It's nowhere *near* as easy as you seem to want to believe.

And look at your numbers. 500,000?

At COH's peak, we had around 200,000 subscribers. We'v historically had, what, around 120k - and note that there are people with multiple subscriptions (such as myself.) I don't know what our total subscribers have been - I'm going to make up a number and say, for people that have stuck around 3 months or more, one million. (That's including people who have left, of course.) That number's probably *high,* since we've actually had great retention instead of a revolving door, when it comes to subs.

Still, we'll use a supposed one million people who have played COH for three months or more. That's your *actual* target audience - people who have had a sustained interest in COH.

Now, some of those people have left, quite obviously. Did they leave on good terms? People who got bored by issue two... probably not. People who came in for PVP and left at issue 13... probably not. People who played and decided they didn't like the game, even though they stuck around - probably not. People who have been gone for over a year - probably not.

How much are we trimming down that number? I'd wager we're getting close to our current subscriber base (estimated 75-100k.) Yes, I'm ignoring premium/free.

Now you get back to the technical questions:
- Which OS are we looking at? Likely not the MacOS. Due to it really *not* being supported, and being on older systems, probably not XP. We don't support Linux at all, though there are some linux users. So, Vista/7. How many COH users are just using Vista or Win7? Your target has shrunk again.

- How many of those users have the extra horsepower to RUN this desktop? Your target has shrunk again.

- Then, how many of those users would be in the least bit *interested* in running that desktop replacement - and all the problems that may come along with it, in application/utility incompatibility, updates to the OS breaking it, drivers having issues with it and the like, not to mention usability?

Each time that target shrinks, the cost to the end user goes up, and the viability of the project goes down. If you'd like to pay $150,000 or more for the desktop replacement - and do note that, while PS has programmers, they don't have anyone programming for a Windows UI, just the game and supporting software, so add training costs - then talk to them.

Last note I'll make on this - Look up Microsoft Bob. While not 3d, it had much the same idea as what you describe. It sold.... pretty much not at all.

Then listen to what those of us that *have* that experience are telling you.



Edit:

Now if you scale it back some - Windows Vista and Win7 have support for themes, if you're looking to "COH-ify" your desktop. NC/PS has artwork, they have the various sound files, etc. and creating one is doable within the OS (I've done so with artwork I've gotten, for instance.) Or Object Desktop has themeing/skinning available and an established userbase. While not a "3d environment," it'd be open to *far* more people - with minimal work on PS part, and typically little to no cost on the end user's part (and no real increase in requirements for the machine to run, risk of incompatibility, etc.)

Basically, though... it's the same thing, is what I'm saying. Just don't start a base or whatever.

Nope. You've gone from "I've singlehandedly torn through all the big-bad Praetorians" in the old mission to "I've been told to sit back and watch like a good third-stringer as Statesman/Positron/Whoever else they've thrown in the mission to aggro on things a mile away and one shot them finishes the mission for me, and defeat not Tyrant but a guard who's been raiding his dress rack."

Yeah. The new version sucks.

Ahh. So they'll announce they've restocked the cups in the water cooler they might discuss it around.

... no, not cynical at all.

Illusion/Sonic. His feeling thoroughly miserable finding out he was giving myself and a few other SG mates problems after buffing us (we didn't know at first, either) was one of the things that pushed me to be such a PITA to the devs to get those effects changed.

Why? Well, because making a game world (where you have full control of the information - a trainer here, a mission door there, clicking here takes you somewhere else) is quite different from making a complete replacement for an OS shell, like Explorer, or GNOME. You *hope* it'll replace everything and work properly - but all it takes is an OS update to break that. And then you have to hope all the various programs are going to work well with it, too, from the basics (notepad/terminal/freecell) to the games, to office software.

Plus, frankly, your description sounds very wasteful of system resources (what do you think your "3d world" is going to take up compared to Explorer?) and, honestly, time to just *get things done.* By the time you've run around, gotten into your office, sat down in your virtual seat, etc. I've double clicked something and am already done with my email.

WILL there be a "3d desktop world" of some sort? Sure. And you'll probably find it in specialized applications - people are trying all sorts of things out with virtual/touch surfaces, where they'd probably work better. But as a general use with current style OSes (and probably the sort of systems and system use we'll see in general use for the next 10-15 years?) Probably not.

Honestly... it's felt that way for years. New ones come up (my friends and I tend to go "Hey, new issue, wonder what they broke this time.") Old ones crop up at odd times, and others seem to go unfixed for quite some time.

However, even if they created a "Bug fixing issue," having nothing else come out for six months beforehand - the next patch, the next issue would just introduce others, possibly bringing some "fixed" ones back.

We've had a lot of "cooks" in the COH "stew," some of them didn't document things very well (if at all,) going from some dev comments. Doing a massive bug fix would pretty well require rewriting from scratch to hunt down some of them and make sure of what's affecting what.

It is. And it's irritating as hell.

Noticed when they were doing the praetorian invasions. The hami seeds or whatever they're called would drop in or out of phase depending on your particular tie with that phased area - and you'd see the team list go grey (or not) at the same time.

I was one of the only people in my zone this morning when I hopped into a holiday trial via queue. The other three people weren't. /whoall

Ruularu is *much* bigger than these guys.

Edit:


Note the biggest stuff we *can* target is about the same size. (We target Hami's nucleus, not the whole gel "bubble.") We're looking at them and going "cool" but, size wise, they're... what, somewhere between Jack and Eochai there, maybe? *checks pics* OK, bit bigger, I think.

really need some shots that are not "OMG, look up!" or at a distance - something that can give us a head height.

LOL. Sorry, EG. But to be fair we weren't having a conversation ourselves, so the contractual obligation to disagree hadn't kicked in.

Think we're going to have to reexamine that at some point....

You'll have to pardon me while I laugh heartily at this.

<several minutes pass, with a great deal of laughter in the background>

Now, Before you make even *more* of a fool out of yourself with your assumptions:
1. Look at my signature.
2. Click where it tells you to to get to my guides.
3. Look at the HUGE section on MA tutorials. Ones I spent one HELL of a long time writing up, testing and rewriting when MA came out.

Note none of them are "How to farm." Note - while they are somewhat out of date - that if you follow them, you will have created a basic, multi mission *story.*


Now, chuckles, care to tell me I'm "sitting on one side" being an "arrogant farmer" again? That I *hate* anyone creating a story - when, if you look up any of my arcs, that's all they are?

Or would you like to apologize for making an assumption?

Y'see, chuckles, I *do both.* I'm not a hardcore farmer, but if I need to make lowbie IOs, I'll go in, throw down a map with a bunch of something and kill stuff for a supply of tickets. If I don't like what I see on the market, I'll go kill stuff 'til I can just pick up the salvage I need. Alternately, I've got several story arcs "in progress" at various levels.

So, which "mentality," Mr. Hilarity, am I supposedly following? Does my left side hate my right side, rendering me no longer to play because I'm beating myself up?

Oh, and yes, Chuckley Brown, I did finish reading, only to laugh at you even more. Perhaps you'd like to tell me I don't play one side or the other, or have no interest in PVP or PVE, or maybe that I don't know what it's like to have a bunch of alts?

Let me make it easy for you:
GROUPS I'M NOT IN SOME WAY A PART OF
Badgers - though I will help friends get theirs.
RMT employees
Non-North American players
Griefers
Mac client users
Min/Max multi-billion-INF build character creators
People who only play one character, period
Players who are female
Players who are under 18

... think that's about it. Of those non-me groups, the only ones I have any enmity for are RMTers and griefers.

By the way, perhaps before you claim I don't read your posts (claiming farmers and non farmers "dont' mix,") you should actually pay attention to what's being said (that, for the most part and to varying degrees - see that "big grey area" in the post? - they're THE SAME PEOPLE.) There's a small fringe on one side that won't do anything but hardcore farm, and a small fringe on the other like Venture who seem to think killing all rewards will bring back the "purity of the storytelling medium." Everyone else is in that grey area.

Fixed.
Show your work. Unless it's the work I'm fairly sure you did, which involved reaching behind you to a specific orifice to pull this out of.

This, more than anything.

The dev logic - or at least explanation - is making what we've done for years (sewer runs) into an actual trial with a reward at the end.

If you nerf the XP from that, people can still run old fashioned sewer *runs* - either with a new character or level locked one holding the team to, say, level 5 while still pulling in XP. They'd lose a few things (like the trainer at every level) but they'd just use that to bypass it.

Er... not exactly. See, we DO have dev input - basically past a certain size, it's impossible to target (which is why we don't actually fight Ruularu.) The Jade Spider is about as large as they dare to go because of it. (And note that, while Hamidon overall is "large," it's more an area with a bunch of little sub-mobs to fight.)

So these guys are probably scraping the upper limit.

I still like them this way.

I find it funny any time I read this phrase. And not just with farms. We can go with "Badgers and PVPers." Or PVPers and PVEers. Or min/maxers and people in it for the story. Blueside and redside.

Big clue, before ever using that sort of phrase again:

THERE IS OVERLAP. And probably a *great* deal more than you think. Someone who uses a farming character to fund their main/RP/badger. Or uses the farmer to unlock the AE story/other items faster.

Seriously.

<---- There's a little black over here, and a little white waaaay over there --------------->

In the middle? One HELL of a lot of grey where people *do both.*