I would love a CoH desktop


Chyll

 

Posted

Dear Mr Clayton and Mr. Miller,

I've been playing CoH for almost 3 years and I really enjoy the game. Playing CoH got me thinking about the nature of MMO's and the player's exposure to a 3D world and perhaps what it may look like in the future. If you have a moment to read this, I think you will see my idea may be just that- the way people will interact in the future and as an opportunity for you.

The first premise is millions of players around the world of all ages have grown used to playing in a 3D world. After running around a city or mountain, after flying through the air, after driving a car through Monte Carlo- they cannot go back to a 2D game. If fact, more games now are being developed to have the 3D realism be more accurate not less. No one is going back to old games; only forward.

The next thought is what you see on your computer screen desktop is a 2D world. Flat. I have my background picture, I have shortcut icons. I have my bottom task bar. Pretty basic and it's been that way for a decade or more. What is needs is to be 3D. But not in the way a few companies have tried to create a 3D desktop. I think one company who tried it was Bumptop. Their 3D desktop was very basic and not much of a step up from 2D. Google bought them and now who knows. They have not been heard from again.

But Paragon Studios already has the components in place to make a great 3D desktop and here's where these two ideas combined beautifully. Let me give you the example.
My desktop is the Atlas map. It isn't the game. It's my desktop program. So you don't need all the maps, just one. So, I turn on the computer and I'm standing in Atlas near City Hall. Just like if I had logged into the game- there are the 3D buildings, sounds of water, I can run and move around the town.

I have my toon and because of the character creator, my toon can look like anyone or anything. To add to the 3D-ness of the Atlas desktop, some of the buildings in Atlas are entrances to other programs on my hard drive like shortcuts icons are in a 2D desktop. In the game, you click a door and go someplace; it would be just like that. Some of the buildings may be shortcuts to the Internet or programs. Wentworth's may be where I go for websites like eBay or Amazon. Or go to the hospital for sites like WebMD. The library for news sites, etc. In 2D, those shortcuts are images on my desktop. In my Atlas desktop, the shortcuts are 3D items.

Next, I need to go to my office. The program might allow me to pick from different places I have my office- an office building, a house, the penthouse, a warehouse. So I go to a building and click the door, go in, take the elevator to the top floor penthouse and there's my office. It looks the way I want it to because the game has a base creator and I can select furniture, book cases, desk, plants- all to my liking. Those objects from the base creator may become the shortcut images for me to programs, etc.

On my desk is a stack of mail and I click it for the shortcut and select from my choices of hotmail or gmail to see what email I received. That click gets me to my email programs. The program may have selected objects that can be turned into shortcuts to programs or internet sites. The TV in my office might take me to Youtube. The picture on the wall lets me go to Tumbler. And the radio takes me to Itunes. The computer on my desk takes me to my browser. The CoH poster gets me to the game. I move my toon around the room to get to these things because I want to be in a 3D world, I want to walk around like I do in a game. It is comfortable to me and fun. After all, I already play in a 3D world for hours at a time. This desktop is familiar and expected.

Let's say my company has adopted this desktop for their employees. They can have business meetings. The appointment may be in the mission tab. The meeting is in City Hall. This action of meeting others maybe similar to going out to the internet and being in the game. CoH already has the servers. You can use a server that is under utilized. From my desktop, I go to City Hall and click the meeting room door, just like a mission, and there are all my co-worker's toons at the meeting. We can chat in local, or send private tells.

My friend's list may be coworkers, friends, and family. I can send tells to them like instant messenger does. If a friend has the Atlas desktop too, we might be able set a place to meet to talk and visit- like the park or art museum, etc. Maybe there are mini-games inside the Atlas desktop I can play. Or play with others. Really, anything is possible and with the CoH being the foundation, I am thinking a lot is already in place.

We know that millions and millions of people live in a 3D world hours a day, some spend more hours there than in real life. You probably could ask anyone to close their eyes and imagine that world the play in and it will be as real as anything to them. I cannot be the only one who wants the 3D immersion to be beyond the confines of the game. Perhaps the business application is a bit far out but even if personal use was just 10% of all game players, what is that, a potential 500,000 person customer base? I do not have the training or the money to make this happen. You do. This is not a crazy idea. It really is just a question of when. Somebody will do this. Someone will realize so many people are already there and wanting it. I hope you take a few minutes and see just how this will work and how it could be a great business for you.

Thank you for you time. If you have any questions, please write.


 

Posted

There might be a couple pit falls in this idea.

PS3 has a similar set up and I rarely see anyone in there. accept for a few random chatters.

I can see a senario like this happening: your meeting starts at 7am, you started running from city hall to your office "office conference program" at 6:50am. You make it to the door of your office at 7:01 and completely loaded in at 7:09am. After the meeting your boss asks you why you were late ... your only honest responce is "I forgot I was only lvl 3 and don't have a travel power yet" can you say fired.

I would enjoy this idea for a while, but don't see long term use.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
We know that millions and millions of people live in a 3D world hours a day, some spend more hours there than in real life. You probably could ask anyone to close their eyes and imagine that world the play in and it will be as real as anything to them. I cannot be the only one who wants the 3D immersion to be beyond the confines of the game.
I live in a 3D world 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's more real than anything I've seen in game.

I'm sorry, I can't get behind this idea because I enjoy leaving the computer on the desk and living real life. This game is great, but it's a game. I'm just as happy pulling the plug and going for a run, heading out to the beach to enjoy the sun, or spending time with my nephew or my dog. I don't need a computer to help do that.

Let's keep fantasy where it belongs.


Global- @SailorET, Justice Server
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Louise Fiero, 50 Merc/Traps MM
Various assorted alts
Proudly serving in our military so you don't have to.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigman View Post
There might be a couple pit falls in this idea.

PS3 has a similar set up and I rarely see anyone in there. accept for a few random chatters.

I can see a senario like this happening: your meeting starts at 7am, you started running from city hall to your office "office conference program" at 6:50am. You make it to the door of your office at 7:01 and completely loaded in at 7:09am. After the meeting your boss asks you why you were late ... your only honest responce is "I forgot I was only lvl 3 and don't have a travel power yet" can you say fired.

I would enjoy this idea for a while, but don't see long term use.
Yea. And you could only use "the mission wasn't set so I didn't know where it was" only once probably


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorET View Post
I live in a 3D world 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's more real than anything I've seen in game.

I'm sorry, I can't get behind this idea because I enjoy leaving the computer on the desk and living real life. This game is great, but it's a game. I'm just as happy pulling the plug and going for a run, heading out to the beach to enjoy the sun, or spending time with my nephew or my dog. I don't need a computer to help do that.

Let's keep fantasy where it belongs.
Well that goes for anything then- email or web searches or reading blogs. Online vs RL. My belief is 3D desktops will happen sooner not later. It's not about continuing to play the game even if you're offline. It's about how you manage your desktop information. Right now it is 2D with shortcuts and a background picture. Why not make it 3D? And with millions of people playing games in 3D, some company will tap into that comfortablity and make a lot of money with a 3D desktop. CoH has most of it in place already in the game- so why not them? They can make it and make money, too.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
Well that goes for anything then- email or web searches or reading blogs. Online vs RL. My belief is 3D desktops will happen sooner not later. It's not about continuing to play the game even if you're offline. It's about how you manage your desktop information. Right now it is 2D with shortcuts and a background picture. Why not make it 3D? And with millions of people playing games in 3D, some company will tap into that comfortablity and make a lot of money with a 3D desktop. CoH has most of it in place already in the game- so why not them? They can make it and make money, too.
Why? Well, because making a game world (where you have full control of the information - a trainer here, a mission door there, clicking here takes you somewhere else) is quite different from making a complete replacement for an OS shell, like Explorer, or GNOME. You *hope* it'll replace everything and work properly - but all it takes is an OS update to break that. And then you have to hope all the various programs are going to work well with it, too, from the basics (notepad/terminal/freecell) to the games, to office software.

Plus, frankly, your description sounds very wasteful of system resources (what do you think your "3d world" is going to take up compared to Explorer?) and, honestly, time to just *get things done.* By the time you've run around, gotten into your office, sat down in your virtual seat, etc. I've double clicked something and am already done with my email.

WILL there be a "3d desktop world" of some sort? Sure. And you'll probably find it in specialized applications - people are trying all sorts of things out with virtual/touch surfaces, where they'd probably work better. But as a general use with current style OSes (and probably the sort of systems and system use we'll see in general use for the next 10-15 years?) Probably not.


 

Posted

You're right, it will take up resorces and perhaps be cumbersome and not as clean or effective as the other applications out there but to say there isn't a market for it, I don't believe that's true. Most of us use Windows desktop as a default. I am sure if a 3D option were availible some of us would use it instead. There are how many desktop computers out there 500 million, 1 billion? As a business idea, if converting a small portion of CoH into a desktop application, at a relatively inexpensive cost, how many could you sell? 500,000 at $20 a piece? 10 million dollars in sales? Isn't that worth the effort?

You maybe looking at this in a practical way because of your computer experience- most of us do not have that experience.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
*SNIP*
Sorry, but it's not going to work.

As someone's who's been using hybrid 2D-3D desktops for years (Compiz:Linux), I can say that an associative spatial model (based on real world structures) for a desktop like you want would be a complete frickin' mess.

I don't want to have to "stroll" over to a building.

I want to be able to manually drill down in a file structure or search for what I need via command line or search interface.

Taking it 3D adds nothing.

Making it associative with structures (like hospital for medical stuff) is just kludgy and inconsistent.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
You're right, it will take up resorces and perhaps be cumbersome and not as clean or effective as the other applications out there but to say there isn't a market for it, I don't believe that's true. Most of us use Windows desktop as a default. I am sure if a 3D option were availible some of us would use it instead. There are how many desktop computers out there 500 million, 1 billion? As a business idea, if converting a small portion of CoH into a desktop application, at a relatively inexpensive cost, how many could you sell? 500,000 at $20 a piece? 10 million dollars in sales? Isn't that worth the effort?

You maybe looking at this in a practical way because of your computer experience- most of us do not have that experience.
Is there a market? Sure.
How BIG is that market though?
Big enough that the cost of such development can be spread evenly amongst hundreds of thousands of clients?
How big is a market for a resource-hog free-roaming 3D shell where millions of dollars in development can only be spread across a couple hundred users?

In reality, the market for this type of hyper-specialized product is vanishingly small. Maybe a couple thousand users. And the development time to make something that was actually USABLE would be in the millions to tens of millions range.

Also, since they're running as a third-party app on top of an existing OS, they would need to worry about compatibility, updates, etc.

In short, it makes no sense to develop a $10,000 standards-free desktop replacement app for a $200 OS.



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
You're right, it will take up resorces and perhaps be cumbersome and not as clean or effective as the other applications out there but to say there isn't a market for it, I don't believe that's true.
Sure. There's a market for *anything.* Create a goat vomit and camel snot sandwich, and someone will call it a "delicacy" and sell it for $500. The question is, is there a viable market for it - one big enough to even consider starting development of such a thing.

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Most of us use Windows desktop as a default. I am sure if a 3D option were availible some of us would use it instead.
Yes, most people use the Windows desktop as a default. There are start menu replacement applications - far easier to create than what you're talking about. How often do you see them used? Some people use them, sure. A large minority? No.

The majority of windows "modifications" I see tend to be skinning, just making windows look a little different... and even THAT can interfere with programs (for instance, WindowBlinds and City of Heroes have a history of not getting along.)

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There are how many desktop computers out there 500 million, 1 billion?
Don't have recent data. Now, as you're looking at those, how many are in a business environment, where this would not be allowed, period? Or a school environment? Or are being used for "servers" (yes, even running a desktop version of Windows - I see this fairly often in small businesses.) Cut all those out of your market.

Now how many of what's left are too old to even consider running the application at all? I still see people with 10 year old desktops, WinXP, 128 Mb RAM. Obviously they're not running COH (I'll get to that in a second) but they're not going to be able to run your desktop either.

Or are we limiting this, for hardware/software reasons, to Windows Vista or Win7? You've cut your market down farther there - and not all those machines will have the horsepower to run the desktop you describe, either. (netbooks, low cost notebooks, low cost PCs... which, honestly, most of them are.)

Now, of the machines left, how many are owned by someone who would be interested?

Does that projection make it financially worthwhile?



Quote:
As a business idea, if converting a small portion of CoH into a desktop application, at a relatively inexpensive cost, how many could you sell? 500,000 at $20 a piece? 10 million dollars in sales? Isn't that worth the effort?
You would be *starting from scratch,* not "converting atlas park." It's nowhere *near* as easy as you seem to want to believe.

And look at your numbers. 500,000?

At COH's peak, we had around 200,000 subscribers. We'v historically had, what, around 120k - and note that there are people with multiple subscriptions (such as myself.) I don't know what our total subscribers have been - I'm going to make up a number and say, for people that have stuck around 3 months or more, one million. (That's including people who have left, of course.) That number's probably *high,* since we've actually had great retention instead of a revolving door, when it comes to subs.

Still, we'll use a supposed one million people who have played COH for three months or more. That's your *actual* target audience - people who have had a sustained interest in COH.

Now, some of those people have left, quite obviously. Did they leave on good terms? People who got bored by issue two... probably not. People who came in for PVP and left at issue 13... probably not. People who played and decided they didn't like the game, even though they stuck around - probably not. People who have been gone for over a year - probably not.

How much are we trimming down that number? I'd wager we're getting close to our current subscriber base (estimated 75-100k.) Yes, I'm ignoring premium/free.

Now you get back to the technical questions:
- Which OS are we looking at? Likely not the MacOS. Due to it really *not* being supported, and being on older systems, probably not XP. We don't support Linux at all, though there are some linux users. So, Vista/7. How many COH users are just using Vista or Win7? Your target has shrunk again.

- How many of those users have the extra horsepower to RUN this desktop? Your target has shrunk again.

- Then, how many of those users would be in the least bit *interested* in running that desktop replacement - and all the problems that may come along with it, in application/utility incompatibility, updates to the OS breaking it, drivers having issues with it and the like, not to mention usability?

Each time that target shrinks, the cost to the end user goes up, and the viability of the project goes down. If you'd like to pay $150,000 or more for the desktop replacement - and do note that, while PS has programmers, they don't have anyone programming for a Windows UI, just the game and supporting software, so add training costs - then talk to them.

Last note I'll make on this - Look up Microsoft Bob. While not 3d, it had much the same idea as what you describe. It sold.... pretty much not at all.

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You maybe looking at this in a practical way because of your computer experience- most of us do not have that experience.
Then listen to what those of us that *have* that experience are telling you.



Edit:

Now if you scale it back some - Windows Vista and Win7 have support for themes, if you're looking to "COH-ify" your desktop. NC/PS has artwork, they have the various sound files, etc. and creating one is doable within the OS (I've done so with artwork I've gotten, for instance.) Or Object Desktop has themeing/skinning available and an established userbase. While not a "3d environment," it'd be open to *far* more people - with minimal work on PS part, and typically little to no cost on the end user's part (and no real increase in requirements for the machine to run, risk of incompatibility, etc.)


 

Posted

If realized, hopefully the ToT season wouldn't alter the user experience too much...


City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.

R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chyll View Post
If realized, hopefully the ToT season wouldn't alter the user experience too much...
Dammit! I keep dying on my way to my Pictures directory! Someone needs to stop playing Ding Dong Ditch!



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Posted

OK. I can see there are technical issues and interest levels to this idea. But, a 3D desktop is just a matter of time. How it will look or behave is up to whoever can come up with it. Frankly, all the comments describing how it won't work seem thought restrictive rather than solution based. A twirling globe of shortcuts might be the desktop. Flying through clouds might be it, too. But for computer geeks, no shouldn't be the answer. Look at this for the fun it would be, that's how many great things start.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
OK. I can see there are technical issues and interest levels to this idea. But, a 3D desktop is just a matter of time. How it will look or behave is up to whoever can come up with it. Frankly, all the comments describing how it won't work seem thought restrictive rather than solution based. A twirling globe of shortcuts might be the desktop. Flying through clouds might be it, too. But for computer geeks, no shouldn't be the answer. Look at this for the fun it would be, that's how many great things start.
This idea reminds me of something from 10-11 years ago called UBUBU that was supposed to revolutionize how people navigated the internet. It was a massive flop and I can speak from personal experience that it was a laggy, barely-functional, and unintuitive mess.

Why reinvent the wheel? There will surely be changes to the desktop model for years to come, and the next major shift beyond that will likely be related to the peripherals that eventually replace the traditional keyboard/monitor setup. But before that happens, there's really no reason to shift things so dramatically.


"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
OK. I can see there are technical issues and interest levels to this idea. But, a 3D desktop is just a matter of time.
Not necessarily. In some niche situations, it may be a better answer. As a general computing environment, the way you've described it... again, see "Microsoft Bob."

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Frankly, all the comments describing how it won't work seem thought restrictive rather than solution based.
See also "Realistic." Unless, again, you'd like to spend several thousand dollars to hire someone to make your own, and deal with all the problems that come up with it.

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But for computer geeks, no shouldn't be the answer.
Unless, of course, that's the realistic, factual answer. Some answers are just plain wrong - not "differently right."

"I want to flap my arms and fly, it'd be fun!" "Unfortunately, you can't."
"1+1 should equal 5!" "No."

See? Perfectly good reasons for "No" to be an answer.

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Look at this for the fun it would be, that's how many great things start.
Look how unintuitive, resource-intensive, cumbersome and incompatible it would be, that's how a great many things end.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
OK. I can see there are technical issues and interest levels to this idea. But, a 3D desktop is just a matter of time. How it will look or behave is up to whoever can come up with it. Frankly, all the comments describing how it won't work seem thought restrictive rather than solution based. A twirling globe of shortcuts might be the desktop. Flying through clouds might be it, too. But for computer geeks, no shouldn't be the answer. Look at this for the fun it would be, that's how many great things start.
Actually, the desktop of the future is likely to be something like the iPhone or the Kinect menus. Contrary to this proposed CoH desktop, these systems are clean, quick and intuitive. Over future development, keyboards and mice will probably take a back seat to motion-tracking and voice-activated control, and something you can navigate with a wave of your hand is just more efficient than running and jumping an avatar through a virtual city.

Think of it this way: You load up Atlas Park. You run down to your character's office to put the finishing touches on your presentation, then leave there and head down the road to City Hall, stopping by Wentworths to check on an eBay auction you've got running. You get distracted by looking at other things and realize you're almost late to your meeting. So now you're rushing into City Hall, trying to find which room the meeting is in and hoping you don't accidentally turn the wrong way and end up in Recluse's Victory instead. Thankfully, you made it... hope you brought that presentation with you, or it's a long walk back to the office!

I, on the other hand, tap one icon to pull up my presentation, put it together as I wanted, and then squeeze my fingers and it's back where I left it. Touch the auction icon, look at my auction. Oh no, I spent too long... wave my hand and that's gone. Reach out, grab the virtual meeting icon, and I'm there. Oops, forgot my presentation... wave, tap, there it is!


Global- @SailorET, Justice Server
Sheryl Fiero, 50 AR/Devices Blaster
Louise Fiero, 50 Merc/Traps MM
Various assorted alts
Proudly serving in our military so you don't have to.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorET View Post
Actually, the desktop of the future is likely to be something like the iPhone or the Kinect menus.

HARA-KIRI!
HARA-KIRI!
HARA-KIRI!


Sorry, I just loathe dumbed-down menus that I need to scroll through multiple desktops to find everything on.

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Contrary to this proposed CoH desktop, these systems are clean, quick and intuitive.
Yeah, if you only have a couple of apps and aren't doing anything complex.

Then it's underpowered, incomplete and useless.

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Over future development, keyboards and mice will probably take a back seat to motion-tracking and voice-activated control, and something you can navigate with a wave of your hand is just more efficient than running and jumping an avatar through a virtual city.
They've been saying this about the console market for ever and ever and ever. Notice it's been 30-odd years and STILL hasn't happened.

While the keyboard and the mouse aren't the greatest for every task, they're still the most flexible.


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I, on the other hand, tap one icon to pull up my presentation, put it together as I wanted, and then squeeze my fingers and it's back where I left it.
And you're dreaming. You tap one icon to pull up the presentation, immediately go back to the keyboard and the mouse to ACTUALLY get anything done, then save it and close it.

Onscreen keyboards and the like absolutely SUCK for any kind of prolonged desktop productivity. You can spend two hours fighting with an onscreen interface or drop back to a keyboard and mouse and get it done in 15-20 minutes.



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney_ View Post
OK. I can see there are technical issues
No. The issues aren't technical. The issues are utility and usability. Ergonomics.

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But, a 3D desktop is just a matter of time.
3D desktops exist NOW. They're toys. Bright shiny toys. But toys. There's pretty much NOTHING we do with desktops nowadays that would be made better in any appreciable way by a 3D environment.

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But for computer geeks, no shouldn't be the answer.
Sorry, but you don't speak for computer geeks. To sell said technically inclined users, you have to give them more of a reason to implement than "I think it would be cool". There have to be concrete problems solved by the solution.

Look at the portion of the computer enthusiast industry that ardently AVOIDS Apple. But, according to Cupertino, their products are the best thing since the abacus. Yet people still use Wintendo, Linux, BSD, etc.

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Look at this for the fun it would be, that's how many great things start.
This is the kind of thinking behind rabid Mac-fandom. "It's cool. It's neat. It's great. YOU should do this for ME!"

Yeahno.

If it's so great, implement it YOURSELF. If I think it looks like something I can use, or is in some way interesting to me, maybe I'll contribute.



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.