What's the best way to ask the Devs for a bug fix issue?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-10-21 04:28 in Player Questions
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Unknown. One would have hoped that i21.5 was going to be their "Take a breath and fix all the broken things" patch, since it's a halfway patch and not a full issue. However instead it seems Paragon Studios are continuing with their "Screw old stuff, let's just add new crap" approach, except now they are also adding stupid gates to it. But hey, at least the BAF and Lambda are "fixed" now, hey?
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Originally Posted by all_hell
I would like for the Devs to take an issue and devote it to fixing the various bugs in game. It would make having new content more meaningful if the new content worked and if it didn't break old content. As I understand it, there're various bugs that have existed for years. I think that it would do wonders for VIP morale. I think it would improve the game and make it more fun for everyone.
AFAICT, the only downside to fixing bugs us that it costs dev time. Which, arguably, they're going to spend working on something anyway. So, what is the best way to communicate this desire to the devs? |
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Nevermind that bug fixes go into every single damn patch out there. Let's just throw out hyperbole in massive quantities!|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Unknown. One would have hoped that i21.5 was going to be their "Take a breath and fix all the broken things" patch, since it's a halfway patch and not a full issue. However instead it seems Paragon Studios are continuing with their "Screw old stuff, let's just add new crap" approach, except now they are also adding stupid gates to it. But hey, at least the BAF and Lambda are "fixed" now, hey?
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Nearly all the bugs currently rate barely in the "annoyance" category at worst. In terms of marketing in ANY MMO, new content >>>>>>> fixing minor bugs. Like it or not, right or wrong, that's the way things go.
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I suggested that once.. With the idea to devote time and effort to get caught up and get everything working properly before moving on to new bigger more shiny etc..
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But there's more to the game than acquiring new players and marketing. There is player retention.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
In terms of marketing in ANY MMO, new content >>>>>>> fixing minor bugs. Like it or not, right or wrong, that's the way things go.
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I wouldn't call Defenders Chronoshift bug "barely an annoyance", or the fact that Defender Beam Rifle seems to have been left out of the Spread changes, since they are both key parts of each set.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Nevermind that bug fixes go into every single damn patch out there. Let's just throw out hyperbole in massive quantities!
Nearly all the bugs currently rate barely in the "annoyance" category at worst. In terms of marketing in ANY MMO, new content >>>>>>> fixing minor bugs. Like it or not, right or wrong, that's the way things go. |
Pet AI is STILL screwed from i13 or i14 or something. Pets being the main focus of an entire AT (who can at least attempt to control it) and a Tier 9 of 2 others (where they don't have a choice, the pet is going in regardless).
Spending a whole issue doing nothing but fixing bugs wastes a whole lot of Dev time. Not only can you not be guaranteed to actually fix all of the bugs that you wanted to, but then you've got a whole art department sitting on their thumbs doing nothing.
It's one of those things that sounds good on paper, but actually ends up being worse in the long run for the company. I'd rather they fix bugs as they go.
Now, would I like them to spend an issue fixing up old content that's been forgotten about? Yes. But a whole issue just spent fixing bugs does less than you'd think.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Is there some language barrier here preventing you from grasping the meaning of the word "MOST"? ( By the way, funny how both of those were bugs centering on new content, which you had criticized them for focusing on.... )|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I wouldn't call Defenders Chronoshift bug "barely an annoyance", or the fact that Defender Beam Rifle seems to have been left out of the Spread changes, since they are both key parts of each set.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
But there's more to the game than acquiring new players and marketing. There is player retention.
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There are some graphics bugs.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Spending a whole issue doing nothing but fixing bugs wastes a whole lot of Dev time. Not only can you not be guaranteed to actually fix all of the bugs that you wanted to, but then you've got a whole art department sitting on their thumbs doing nothing.
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Also, if they don't have bugs to fix, why can't they work on something else instead of sitting on their hands?
That just sounds silly to me to think that they would sit on their hands instead of working., imho. ymmv
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The first "halfway" patch we got is a good example of doing it right. It introduced some cool new features like Real Numbers and fixed a lot of issues and people loved it.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Spending a whole issue doing nothing but fixing bugs wastes a whole lot of Dev time. Not only can you not be guaranteed to actually fix all of the bugs that you wanted to, but then you've got a whole art department sitting on their thumbs doing nothing.
It's one of those things that sounds good on paper, but actually ends up being worse in the long run for the company. I'd rather they fix bugs as they go. Now, would I like them to spend an issue fixing up old content that's been forgotten about? Yes. But a whole issue just spent fixing bugs does less than you'd think. |
I'm not saying "Lets just fix bugs, screw new stuff", I am saying there's a much happier balance between the two than the current development team are treading.
The "change" to Poison Gas Arrow from Trick Arrow kinda illustrates this, people have been vocally calling for tweaks to the set quite a lot on the forums. Instead we get one tweak which, on the face of it, does rather little.
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You seem to have the same blindness to the word "balanced" as I do to "most"|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Is there some language barrier here preventing you from grasping the meaning of the word "MOST"? ( By the way, funny how both of those were bugs centering on new content, which you had criticized them for focusing on.... )
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Weird, isn't it?
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Not all game developers have the same skillset. Fixing bugs in powers can't be done by artists sometimes. Fixing UI bugs is better handled by people who work in the UI system all the time than people who have never seen that code before.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
There are some graphics bugs.
Also, if they don't have bugs to fix, why can't they work on something else instead of sitting on their hands? That just sounds silly to me to think that they would sit on their hands instead of working., imho. ymmv |
Think of it this way: you're really good at plumbing. But your ceiling fan stops working, and you've never done electrical work before. Sure, it all has to do with your house, but it's going to take you a lot longer to fix your fan than someone who's good at electrical work.
It's the same situation here. Better to have the Devs who work on various systems within the game continuously upgrade and fix those systems than to have people who have never worked on a system previously muck around with the code (because that would likely just introduce MORE bugs).
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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This is true. I don't particularly want Jay fixing powersets. That would be "Crossing the streams" bad |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Not all game developers have the same skillset. Fixing bugs in powers can't be done by artists sometimes. Fixing UI bugs is better handled by people who work in the UI system all the time than people who have never seen that code before.
Think of it this way: you're really good at plumbing. But your ceiling fan stops working, and you've never done electrical work before. Sure, it all has to do with your house, but it's going to take you a lot longer to fix your fan than someone who's good at electrical work. It's the same situation here. Better to have the Devs who work on various systems within the game continuously upgrade and fix those systems than to have people who have never worked on a system previously muck around with the code (because that would likely just introduce MORE bugs). |
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Okay, now that is something that seems reasonable, and I might actually agree with. The OPs point and yours are different, though.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
The first "halfway" patch we got is a good example of doing it right. It introduced some cool new features like Real Numbers and fixed a lot of issues and people loved it.
I'm not saying "Lets just fix bugs, screw new stuff", I am saying there's a much happier balance between the two than the current development team are treading. The "change" to Poison Gas Arrow from Trick Arrow kinda illustrates this, people have been vocally calling for tweaks to the set quite a lot on the forums. Instead we get one tweak which, on the face of it, does rather little. |
I agree that they should be focusing more on fixing stuff and making improvements to old features than on just throwing random stuff our way.
That being said, they did just come out with a new, huge game feature (Freedom) where they said that by changing their business model, they could get us a lot more stuff quickly. From a business perspective, for the first few months after that, you kinda need to keep up with that promise. Not saying I necessarily agree with that, but I can understand it.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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"Why does Power Burst keep changing me into a dancing, flamboyant robot?!?! JAY!!!!!!!!"
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
This is true. I don't particularly want Jay fixing powersets. That would be "Crossing the streams" bad
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I agree with what you're saying, but I don't see how it constitutes an objection or rebuttal.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Not all game developers have the same skillset. Fixing bugs in powers can't be done by artists sometimes. Fixing UI bugs is better handled by people who work in the UI system all the time than people who have never seen that code before.
Think of it this way: you're really good at plumbing. But your ceiling fan stops working, and you've never done electrical work before. Sure, it all has to do with your house, but it's going to take you a lot longer to fix your fan than someone who's good at electrical work. It's the same situation here. Better to have the Devs who work on various systems within the game continuously upgrade and fix those systems than to have people who have never worked on a system previously muck around with the code (because that would likely just introduce MORE bugs). |
I see no need to expect animators to work on systems issues. I honestly have no idea why you think that any would suggest what you're arguing against.
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Because the majority of bugs are in the realm of a few developers there. As such, most of the staff that isn't related to those systems would fix their bugs relatively quickly, whereas the staff that is will take a lot more time to fix all of their bugs (and this is still assuming that the fixing of Bug A won't create Bug B somewhere else). So you have created an issue where some of the Devs have to do one of two things:|
Originally Posted by all_hell
I agree with what you're saying, but I don't see how it constitutes an objection or rebuttal.
I see no need to expect animators to work on systems issues. I honestly have no idea why you think that any would suggest what you're arguing against. |
1) Sit on their hands while the other Devs fix all of their bugs, so as to not risk creating new ones, or
2) Try their hand at something they've not done before, which contains a higher risk of creating new bugs and errors
#1 is bad, #2 is worse. Better for the Devs to try to fix bugs as they go, while still creating new content. What I am NOT saying is that they shouldn't focus on fixing bugs. Just that spending a whole issue fixing bugs is not a great use of resources.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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It seems that there's a middle which is excluded here.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Because the majority of bugs are in the realm of a few developers there. As such, most of the staff that isn't related to those systems would fix their bugs relatively quickly, whereas the staff that is will take a lot more time to fix all of their bugs (and this is still assuming that the fixing of Bug A won't create Bug B somewhere else). So you have created an issue where some of the Devs have to do one of two things:
1) Sit on their hands while the other Devs fix all of their bugs, so as to not risk creating new ones, or 2) Try their hand at something they've not done before, which contains a higher risk of creating new bugs and errors #1 is bad, #2 is worse. Better for the Devs to try to fix bugs as they go, while still creating new content. What I am NOT saying is that they shouldn't focus on fixing bugs. Just that spending a whole issue fixing bugs is not a great use of resources. |
Is there no #3 where people who have fixed the bugs in their area of expertise are otherwise meaningfully occupied within their fields?
That seems like a blatantly obvious thing to do.
What you're arguing against sounds like a silly thing to propose and I don't see why you think anyone would suggest that or do that.
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This is kinda the problem. There's ALWAYS some "huge new game feature" which they're working on. Our Developers kinda suffer from ADD most of the time (or "Dog chasing a bouncy ball" syndrome as Memphis Bill put it).
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
That being said, they did just come out with a new, huge game feature (Freedom) where they said that by changing their business model, they could get us a lot more stuff quickly. From a business perspective, for the first few months after that, you kinda need to keep up with that promise. Not saying I necessarily agree with that, but I can understand it.
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Because that #3 is basically what they already do. They look into bugs and work on new content at the same time.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
It seems that there's a middle which is excluded here.
Is there no #3 where people who have fixed the bugs in their area of expertise are otherwise meaningfully occupied within their fields? That seems like a blatantly obvious thing to do. What you're arguing against sounds like a silly thing to propose and I don't see why you think anyone would suggest that or do that. |
Now, if they were to just focus on bug fixing at the expense of anything else, and then once they fixed every bug in their system (again, not a guarantee), went back to work creating new content within their field, then you still have the issue of things like new zones being created with absolutely nothing in them besides the terrain. Or new animations being created without any power data behind them. Or you get new story arcs created without any maps to go along with them.
Or, what you could do is have all of the Developers work on fixing bugs in their downtime from new content creation. Which is what they should already be doing.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
No one will buy bug fixes in the Paragon Store.
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You think that they put off new content from a department until the old stuff is fixed?|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Because that #3 is basically what they already do.
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All the new content only comes from departments w/o bugs to work on?
That doesn't jibe with the fact that there're bugs in a variety of areas with bugs in them in which we have had new content since the bugs were discovered.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Or, what you could do is have all of the Developers work on fixing bugs in their downtime from new content creation. Which is what they should already be doing.
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And if that means no new content for a year? There's no way to tell how long it will take to find and fix bugs. As such, saying "do nothing except fix bugs" has an indefinite end date for which any new content could begin being worked on. That's a bad business decision.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
And I am saying give them "down time" from new content until the bugs in their area are fixed.
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And again, there's still no guarantee that fixing current bugs won't create new bugs, which would then need to be worked on, which could introduce even newer bugs.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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As someone up thread pointed out, different departments do different things. And there's no reason to expect that every department would be tied up with bug fixes for equal amounts of time.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
And if that means no new content for a year? There's no way to tell how long it will take to find and fix bugs. As such, saying "do nothing except fix bugs" has an indefinite end date for which any new content could begin being worked on.
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And it doesn't have to be for an indefinite period, it's just until launch of that issue.
You can make up all sorts of things that would be bad to do. But, that doesn't mean that they have to do the bad ideas. They could do it in ways that don't involve the obviously poor methods you're worried about.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
And again, there's still no guarantee that fixing current bugs won't create new bugs, which would then need to be worked on, which could introduce even newer bugs.
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Don't think he was saying that at all. Nor do I think it is even a remotely intelligent idea for a good number of reasons. Not the least of which being the simple fact that it's impossible to fix all the bugs. Period. In any software more complex than those Basic programs we did in elementary school that fill the screen with infinitely repeating words. |
Originally Posted by all_hell
You think that they put off new content from a department until the old stuff is fixed?
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I would like for the Devs to take an issue and devote it to fixing the various bugs in game. It would make having new content more meaningful if the new content worked and if it didn't break old content. As I understand it, there're various bugs that have existed for years. I think that it would do wonders for VIP morale. I think it would improve the game and make it more fun for everyone.
AFAICT, the only downside to fixing bugs us that it costs dev time. Which, arguably, they're going to spend working on something anyway.
So, what is the best way to communicate this desire to the devs?