Memphis_Bill

The difference between peacebringers and nictus are twofold -

1. Morality. Peacebringers (and Warshades) won't force posession on a host. They combine. Nictus will try for complete domination.

2. Science altering their powers. Nictus (the "race," if you will, as opposed to the faction) came about due to altering their powers via scientific experiment.

Now, yes, faction-wise, you could fight a Peacebringer "nictus," but that PB's either deluded, fanatic, or (essentially) a Quisling.

Also... *points to sig*

No.

See, those items are available to everyone. The people who put them up get them from the same place I do (drops, merits, etc.) WW/BM is for the impatient.

Why do those items cost several hundred million? Because people will bid that. Yes, in part it's due to people *listing* that high - but on the other hand, the last time I got a purple, I listed it for 10 inf and got 100-some million. Whose "fault" is it that that sold for that much?

You can spend one of two things to get the items - INF, or time. How patient are you?

*checks for flying pigs, looks at thermometer.*

Uh oh.

I agree with EG. This can't be good. (I will, however, give the possibility of bias - EM/EA was my first Brute, and first vill to 50.)

Absolutely nothing will get through! Including air!

(Yes, I know, not exactly a *personal* FF, but I find it amusing.)

Clarification for the OP - they don't fear magic, they killed off their gods so they have no experience with, and a weakness to, magic.

AA, itself, doesn't for me. AA *as part of a whole character,* as I'd mentioned earlier (how it works with doms, for instance) is.

I keep going back to my Ice/Emp as a character I feel a lack of synergy or use for AA. *Everything else* in it - both primary and secondary - give no reason to be near enemies. AA, to be in the least bit effective, means you must be. The only other power that does is Glacier - that's not enough, for me, to consider AA as a necessary, or even high priority, part of the build.

Isn't the same true of - well, almost any power? Including what many seem to feel is eminently skippable in Ice, Flash Freeze? I mean, that fits just as well in that statement. "It's about builds that leave Flash Freeze off altogether. An Ice controller can take both Ice Slick and Flash Freeze. A character with both options has more options available than one who doesn't..."
If you're on a team, you should be using your powers to the benefit of the team. That means being aware of what others do. What's happening on the rest of the team? Even assuming it's the two controllers - which means, barring difficulty adjustments - spawns of, oh, 3-5, we're looking at (theoretically) :

(Note, I'm going to put this theoretical pairing at 22, for Stamina and SOs.)

- I put Ice Slick down under the group. (It recharges fast enough to be an every spawn power.)
- Fire troller Fire Cages the group. The group, now immobed and aggroed, fires on the Fire troller.

My options -
- Stay and continue healing/buffing myself and the fire 'troller.
- Rush in with AA
- Reinforce Cages with Frostbite since Ice Slick's knockdown is nullified anyway, catching any enemies not caught in Cages and making sure we both have Containment.
- Waiting a second to see what the Fire controller (who, at this level could have Smoke, Hot Feet, Flash Fire or Cinders) does next - after all, if we're talking about nullifying powers, it's only fair to point out Flashfire and Cinders effectively nullify Arctic Air's confuse, making it pointless to run - as does Glacier at 26, which doesn't come into play here.)
- Hold problematic enemies or help stack holds on the Boss in the group, who's likely ignoring the immobs and will be trouble anyway.
- Absorb the alpha, heal the Fire who probably took the damage (if Fort wasn't enough defense.)
- Reinforce a buff that's going down (which should, ideally, have been done before the group was attacked, yes - but it's still a possibly needed action.)

As you see, I have plenty of options (including "wait,") only one of which is AA.

Of course, if that group includes one (or more) enemies with immobilizes (and I don't have CJ, or the fire's not an emp or therm,) AA's not going to make one whit of difference anyway. We won't even get into holds, confuses, their own knockback and the like - there are *many* variables.

AA's cast time is 2.17 seconds. Someone else in melee - actually, any character, yes up to and including a tank, depending on what you're fighting - can *certainly* go down in that time.

The question I posed that you're replying to mentions nothing about a "mad dash to get into AA range." Especially mentioning my Ice/Emp, I'm looking specifically at a heal - something I can do at range, of course - being available now vs being unable to waiting for AA's activation. It is enough time for someone to go down.

But again - there's no *need* for an /Emp to get close to enemies for anything whatsoever. Which brings us back to "Synergy." /Kin? Sure. /Emp? No. An /emp can do their job perfectly fine from range. Nothing in /Empathy requires any interaction with the enemy whatsoever. 7 of the 9 powers in Ice/ are 100% usable from range - the exceptions being Glacier and, of course, AA. Now, let's take two common pools - Fitness for stamina, and, oh, Flight. In flight, I'll even take Air Superiority (as opposed to hover) and Fly. So, of 23 powers, exactly three require any interaction on my part with the enemy at melee or near melee range. The exact same number completely nullify or decidedly don't work well with Arctic Air (Block of Ice, Glacier, and - if I take it - Flash Freeze.) I could potentially add Ice Slick there, as well - if I want to take advantage of the confuse, I don't want the enemies flopping around, I want them shooting at each other. Fly isn't really a power that works well with it - if you're in the middle of flying enemies, Frostbite should knock them all down. AA does. (You've split the group.) All that missing means AA will likely chase a flier out of its own range anyway - and who knows how scattered they all are on the ground.

And yet, with all that, you're telling me it's a must have power, so vital you'll consider not inviting that *same* character because they don't have AA.

I've got *my* experience with these characters to say - to your OP's question - "Yes, you're being an AA snob." AA is not Block of Ice. AA (going back to my ice/emp) is not the RAs, or CM, or Fort. AA, on my Ice/Emp, is a luxury power. AA, on that character, is a sunroof or a CD changer.

I think part of why you're wondering - borrowing your words again - if an Ice/ character without AA is "pulling their weight" is because of the two things you did keep mentioning - basically bad builds and players that don't pay attention. (Ice with just Block of Ice and Ice Slick, and players that keep throwing AOE immobs down on Ice Slick.) The first, I'd "nudge" with a suggestion or question or two (maybe they have a reason to build that way, maybe they just don't know) - and if they're being a 'heal0r,' not bother with again. (My own example is a /rad corr that was invited to debuff Eochai during halloween, but had only the rez, AM, and heal in the mid 30s - that's 'not pulling their weight,' absolutely.) The second? Again, talk to, let them know what's happening, and if they refuse to change and actually work together with others powers (IE, it's not an accident,) don't reinvite. Neither of those, though, really impact the "must have" status (or not) of AA.

At this point, I suspect I'm going to bow out, though. We obviously have different views of the power, and I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this (other than a few specific builds.) It's been an interesting discussion, though. My parting thought to you, though, is - don't be so focussed on if an Ice/ has AA. Instead, watch how they perform *overall* and judge by that.

Ice control player centered powers:
AA
Glacier

Everything else can be done at range. So what, looking at the set as a whole, is this powerful argument to stand near enemies? If you say "Arctic air," you're just getting into a circular argument. Heck, Ice Slick (which I think you'd find more people calling a "signature power" of Ice Control) can quite happily and safely be dropped around a corner. Alpha strike? What alpha strike?

And as you say, since my character has to stand somewhere, might as well make it somewhere useful - which, for me, is back a ways, where Healing Aura can cover the ranged squishies, while Heal Other (and, on the characters that have it, Absorb Pain) work for melee.

Now, just as a comparison, if Pain Domination came to controllers, that's another set I'd *definitely* be pairing with Arctic Air. Soothing Aura/Suppress Pain (depending on the version,) World of Painand Anguishing Cry all scream (heh) to be used in melee, and AA helps out there, absolutely. But Empathy? Not so much.

Again, that secondary is directly affecting just how useful AA would be for the character.

First, which powers are you putting down as "kind of suck?" Force bubble? Detention field? Repulsion Field? Repulsion Bomb? And why are you saying they kind of suck? Hopefully not because they don't synergize well with AA - that'd be a bit too narrow of a POV, wouldn't you say?

(And - purely IMHO - if you have to IO yourself out to make a power useful, the power wasn't that useful to begin with.)

And in the extra time it takes to toggle on/off, I can be firing off other powers that are more useful. What - going back to the Ice/Emp - would you call more useful, the one firing off a heal *now,* or the one that fires it off 2 1/4 seconds later (plus travel time to get somewhere AA is affecting anyone?)

Edit:
Just to re-emphasize where I stand on this, somewhat.

If we were talking Dominators, who spend much more time in melee (to varying degrees,) I'd put MUCH more priority on Arctic Air. Yes, some secondaries can spend less time there, but to me it's more of a "must have" power for a Dominator. I'll take AA over Frostbite on a dom, 95% of the time. It almost *is* armor for the Dom.

For Controllers, it's far more varied, and much more strongly dependant on the secondary. Ice slick and Frostbite take precedence over AA for most Controllers, for me... depending on secondary. If your secondary is going to bring you into melee a lot just by the nature of its powers (Kinetics is the perfect example of this,) place more priority on it. If not, if it can do more at range (Empathy, FF, Sonic) it's much more flexible and certainly not a "must have." And really - the only ones I *really* see great synergy with are Kinetics, TA (but that works well with... well, everything on a controller,) and Storm with some clicking. The rest, to me, are really "iffy."

First, ask yourself - "To go with what?" This is a booster pack - costumes, emotes, tiny power. There's not going to be a new powerset involved - that's for issues and expansions.

Other kicks, punches and the like? Well, not really weapons - and we just *did* get those.

Swords? Included. Three Chinese styles, actually.

Staves? Again - to go with what? (This, really, is my question to go with most of the things I can think of as "martial arts equipment" - what would use it?)

Since you "dont' want ninja," I'm assuming no shuriken (which are in some sets anyway.)

Have you looked at the costumes? Asking this honestly. I'm already (over)using one of the pieces (in two variants) because it's fitting an overall "look" - not just "martial arts" - for several characters, including a peacebringer.

I've got to be honest, most of what I see in the pack doesn't say "Ninja" to me - I could make quite a passable one just using the free pieces in the costume creator now.

Go to the wiki page, look at the costumes, and tell me how much of this is really "ninja" versus - well, rather open use.

The "Ninja run" costs a bunch of END, suppresses in combat, and most importantly as far as differences, is *unenhanceable.* Yes, stack it with sprint, Quickness, Swift (or mental training, etc) and you're getting a nice bit of speed, and may be able to consider skipping a travel power - but sounds, quite honestly, like you're going by assumptions without doing much actual investigation. It isn't that huge of an advantage, but it does open up options for you.

Because, of course, natural does not mean natural human. I know you're trying to say "Natural human," but you keep swapping these two around like they're the same thing - and they are not.
What prevents "just a normal guy" from using technology?

How many Archery, Trick Arrow, or Assault Rifle characters are there that are listed as natural versus tech? How many of them could use their powers without the technology (the rifle or bow) in the powerset? Broadsword or dual blades would look *awful* silly without the actual sword (tool, aka technology) they use as part and parcel of the set - yet they're normally classed as "Natural."

How "advanced" is tear gas? Or flinging sand (or ashes) into someone's face? (See Char, Cinders, Smoke.)

If you think "I throw X at you" falls under "Mental gymnastics," well - the only person limiting you is you.

Tell me this - do you consider Devices or Traps "natural human" powersets or tech? Trick arrow? Archery? Assault rifle?

Would you consider a control powerset that had you throwing tear gas, smoke, stun, etc. grenades "Natural" or "Tech?" And why?

Let's look at your own choice of words.

Original post -
You make no mention of "Natural human control sets." Just "Natural sets." Again - only characters are given an origin. Powersets, for the very reason I mentioned, are not - and "Natural" is not listed as "natural human."

Now this post:
which, again, with that phrasing is patently false. A normal human can very well use their brain and skills to come up with means of controlling the environment. They may well be classified more as "tech" or 'science,' perhaps, but a normal human certainly could. In fact, we do *today,* with things like stun grenades, tear gas cannisters, caltrops, sonic (non lethal) weapons and the like.

A "normal human controller" would be perfectly capable of using a suit, grenades, pre-programmed nanobots, hallucinogenic sprays or whatever rationale you want to come up with to be a "controller."

Of cousre, if you don't mind running AE, you can save the money from those salvage bits - 500-some tickets a piece.

Because, after all, every fire tank is issued a controller JUST for them with an AOE immob. Oh, wait, they're not? You can't guarantee there'll be one short of dual-boxing yourself?

| <--- you the point -------------------->.
The good:
It provides immob protection.
The bad:
...that isn't a toggle like every other tank's, so hope it's up. That comes later than every other tank or scrapper's, even though we face immobing enemies early.

The good:
It provides damage.
The bad:
... for the half second that enemies take to run out of it. Unless you HAPPEN to have a (non-illusion) controller on the team that has their AOE immob or hold. And they actually wait for the enemies to be bunched into a nice burn patch area instead of spread out.

The good:
It makes enemies r... oh, wait.
The bad:
It makes enemies run away from the tank or scrapper due to the fear effect.

Two controllers working ot cross purposes is not the same as a single power that works against itself.

(Edit, because I think it needs saying - I'm not saying this from "I tried this once and hated it." I have multiple Fire/ tanks - including my namesake, at 50 and 41 - and a /Fire scrapper. I've tried to fit it in and make it work. The fear in it hobbles the rest of the set. Again, I'll be fine working with the fear, as I know some use it for mitigation, IF it went the Hot Feet route and added a slow as well.)

The Codfish Avenger!

Ahh. That example, sure. The one I was mentioning had people actually there doing it.

Brain lapse. I meant awakens.
If you don't rez yourself (as I recall,) you respawn in something like 10 seconds in the arena. Then (again, from memory) you're phased for a few seconds so you can set up, and you're a valid target again.

The problem with doing it in an arena, of course, is getting enough people to have the timer not be an issue. So, yeah, zones are where I usually see people doing this.

Zones... I'm not sure. You can self-rez, if you want (and get killed again - thus the farms,) go to the hospital - I *thought* I remembered seeing a note about an automatic hospital trip, but don't quote me on it. Don't feel like digging through patch notes at the moment. An out of the way corner usually works.
Well, except you're also subject to the inactivity timeout and such - not to mention network crashes, maintenance, someone killing off the spines and the regen...
It's actually not against the rules - it's just very irritating when people do it *right on top* of the villain contacts, so people who aren't interested try to do something and become the target of an 8 (or more) on 1 slaughter. (And since they've been working on PVP IOs already, expect some to have TP resistance and the like.) Of course, you can also call in a team of your own, but still. Others will go to a quiet part of the zone and do it on their own.

You're assuming "Natural" = "Natural Human." This is an incorrect assumption. (see also "Peacebringer.")

For instance, I have a Fire/Fire blaster (and her nemesis, a fire/fire Dominator) who are basically fire elementals. Controlling and projecting fire are as natural to them as breathing is to me. Similar explanations could be made for most powersets - thus why origin (natural) is tied to the character, NOT the powerset.