Memphis_Bill

Why does one have to be "more," they're not exclusive to each other. I wander in and PVP - though I can't say that community's ever seemed large. RP, I see everywhere - including during PVP.

It's easier to get a feel for a PVP population simply because the game's severely limited in where PVP can take place - four zones and the arena. RP, by contrast, isn't limited to (say) Pocket D. And it's not something "flagged" for. The same base I hop through to craft or go to another zone through, I'll join friends in for RP. I'll RP with friends in missions, or between them. I'll RP through choices in tip missions - nobody else can tell that I'm doing that, unlike when I'm PVPing (or at least looking for PVP.) And yes, even base design itself is an expression of RP for some.

You couldn't even get an idea through the party pack sales - some RPers, like me, don't find it compelling enough to purchase.

Anecdotally? Yes, I'd agree that there are more RPers - hardcore and casual - than there are PVPers. And I don't think there'd be any disagreement that I13 slaughtered the PVP population. Some pretty decent sized PVP SGs just vanished afterward, and I can't think of a single decent size (nearly full team vs nearly full team) zone fight I've had since then - even 4v4. The population's just not there.

A PVP-dedicated dev... PVP needs the attention, yeah. I don't know, right offhand, if the remaining population would survive another massive overhaul of the systems even if it were "perfect," or if the population would grow again this late in the game. A dedicated dev, I'm not sure of - they'd have to end up working through everyone else, after all. But more obvious dev attention? Yeah.

Yep. Ajax being the contact for a new TF. Just so you know what it is.

That said, having more exposure to the comics... well, the decent ones at least, sure, why not.

Amazing how people conveniently forget that. The dev quote (well, paraphrase) was "Sure, we could do it - just don't expect to see anything else for a year, because of how much work it would take" (with the dev team being at their 15 person minimum at that time.)

The OP's argument is now "Well, *I'm* magic and all my stuff will work fine," ignoring that that's not what everyone else is set up like - even other "magic" characters, or that yes, it WILL bother those of us who actually care about how the end result would look. (That on top of "Fire the designer who's given us so much stuff, then," which really should say quite a bit about the OP.)

Since that's the mindframe they're in, I see no further point to even bothering with this thread or the OP.

Yeah, I actually assume it's broken as opposed to removed, and doubt it'll be fixed.

Let's look JUST at this statement.

Fact: Ice floats.

Prove it to yourself. Get a glass or bowl, fill it with water, stick ice in. Let go. What does it do? Float to the surface. It's one of the interesting properties of water (and one which allows, for instance, *fish* to stay alive instead of becoming pre-frozen fish sticks every winter.

Fact: Water is more dense (and thus presents higher resistance to movement) than air does.

Simple enough to figure out if you've *ever* been in any reasonable body of water - hell, even a sink will tell you that.

So, let's take an Ice blaster and put him underwater. We'll let him breathe through the magic of hand-waving. What should logically happen when he tries to attack?
- Range is severely shortened due to resistance from the water.
- Accuracy is degraded as the ice tries to rise to the surface.
- Frost Breath does... what? Blow cool water a few short feet in front of you?
- Ice Storm and Blizzard do... what? They're not going to look right "falling." It's ice under water. And again, any movement they DO have will be slowed. So you'll get ice cubes rising gently above your target.

There goes several of my characters usefulness. Ice blasters, Defenders (secondary) and Corruptors need not go under water.

Well, ok, that's the blaster. How about an ice tank? Again, he's covered in ice. That ice is going to want to float - so he loses Knockback protection. And likely loses some Defense as well. Oh, we're weighting him down? Then he gets the Granite treatment and gets an even bigger movement penalty than normal - of course, you'd better hope you're fighting on the ocean floor. (Anyone using a Cold def's shields gets the same treatment.) Fighting in the water? Nope. You're floating or sinking, or getting more movement penalties for even more "gear" to try to stay in one place.

Let's just look at blasters (since they're going to affect 3-4 other ATs to various extents - Corruptors, Defenders and partially Dominators.)

Psi - No real reason to change. It's mental power, without a physical component. However, given it's generally a bit harder to see underwater, snipe range would probably be cut.

Dark (Corr/Def) - Depends on how you want to define it. Go with the psy explanation (powers like gloom,) it's not likely affected much. Go with energy, and water will dissipate it, shortening range and "punch."

Energy - see Dark.

Radiation - see Energy.

AR - There's a reason guns aren't generally used underwater. When that bullet hits the water - assuming we're not going from air TO water, in which case there's a good chance of it shattering - it's hitting extremely high drag. If your target's right at the end of the barrel, you might hit them. Otherwise, AR need not apply for the water wars.

Archery - see AR, but at least you can get your arrows back, dry them out and use them again.

Dual Pistols - see AR. With extra acc penalties for all the waving of hands as you shoot, and/or extra END cost for doing so under water.

Electric - oy. Since we're looking at an ocean (not sticking you in a vat of pure water,) there's conductivity. I'd still expect to see either range or damage lowered, though.

Fire - You're not giving it a sustained fuel source to maintain the "fire can keep burning if it's hot enough." So either it's doing less damage, you're putting more energy into it (higher END cost,) and/or you're reducing range.

Sonic - Yay, one that would probably work BETTER under water! You'd at least get a range increase out of it.

... that's just one AT. That's just *primaries* from that AT (again, though, also affecting Defenders, Corruptors and to a lesser extent Dominators.) Yes, I threw dark in as it's another ranged set. So we have... two sets (Psi, unchanged, and Sonic) that aren't impacted negatively.

So, this still looking like a good idea?

Or, how about travel powers:

Fly - OK. New animation, bit higher END cost.
Superspeed - hope you have a surface to run on. Greatly increase END cost, or greatly reduce speed.
Superjump - Reduce range, or increase END cost.
Teleport - What would happen when you vanish from one spot and instantly show up somewhere else, having to displace water on your arrival? You'd probably end up having to take damage *every single time.*
Sprint - new animation. Being reasonably slow, I can see getting away with not increasing END here.



Of course, you can just ignore how things would really behave in water and make the experience one of the "utter crap" variety. Given I'm big on Epic ATs and want to see the Coralax EAT actually make it to live at some point, which would likely tie INTO something like this, I'd rather have it done well instead of in a lazy, slipshod, craptastic manner.

You can no longer "swim" in it. Checked when someone else asked me after seeing the EAT status guide in my sig - you now just sink. It's a tiny pool in the rocks outside the west walls of Grandville.

No, you can't - other than PVP, IIRC (not sure if that got past beta.) Tested it when it was mentioned in a prior beta, because this was *exactly* what I was expecting to do. Doesn't work. In fact, I just went in and tried it - literally just logged out after trying it. She phased, I phased, I attacked - "Unaffected."

See cottage rule.
Fortunately the entire set isn't knockback and repel.

And these changes wouldn't do jack for that, so you'd change a set so you'd find it... still boring but slightly different.

Congrats. And what are you doing with your secondary? Maybe FF just isn't for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Maybe it's the combination of FF and your primary. Maybe it's how you're playing. Or just your expectations.

I like my Earth/FF controller. I've got a few FF defenders lurking about. And I can't *stand* my Bots/FF. It's the combination specifically that bores me to tears. At the rate he's leveling - and he was one of my first MMs, just after COV release - he'll be 50 in 2018 or so. He's right down with my Illusion/ controllers as "least favourite to play."

"Better" is an opinion, one I do not share.

And I find it more desirable during my five plus years of playing. There. You have just as valid counter-"evidence."

Force Bubble is more useful to me *now* with its current radius. Dropping that radius reduces its usefulness.

Force Bubble is repel, not knockback. And it prevents mobs from getting close enough to use more-damaging melee attacks, even if (when) they manage to push through a ways. It's like hurricane and repel in some respects - some people use it effectively. Others don't. Sounds like you've been stuck with a lot of "don't."

It also, frankly, doesn't sound like *you* play FF.

Repulsion field = Knockback, which plenty of mobs are resistant to. Force bubble = Repel, different mechanic.

And 20 feet - I've had mobs push 1/3 to halfway into my Force Bubble. 20 feet? I might as well not even be using it.

Yes, the sonic resonance effects WERE changed. They were making people physically sick. Which is why we had a year and a half of fighting to get them changed. That was not an "I don't like it." That was a serious enough issue causing physical distress to a portion of the playerbase.

Earth Control - Stalagmites
Earth Control - Quicksand. How does that work under water?
Electric Armor - Grounded (think it's the status protection) requires you to be near the ground.
Superstrength - Foot Stomp
Superstrength - Hurl Boulder
Ice control - Ice Slick wouldn't really make a lot of sense.
Mastermind henchmen and Controller pets generally require a surface - for instance, take an Illusion controller and a jetpack, go up and summon PA or Spectral, and they'll drop (they'll actually show up on the closest surface beneath you.) Phantasm and Singularity, at least, fly.
Hot Feet, IIRC, requires you're near the ground.

That's just off the top of my head.

Not to mention at least one dev is thoroughly against it (BABs.)

About all I can see happening "underwater" would be - well, a setting. Going through an underwater city, being allowed to see water outside, water dripping, etc. If we got to "swim" (retrieve XYZ outside, etc.) to avoid *all* the problems that powers would present, we'd probably end up in a state similar to Walk - you can swim, but nothing else works, and you can't break that state while "underwater."

... which is why I said: